Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
Hi Antony, On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300 Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.com wrote: (I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.) I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew. So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed. However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees - I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year to apply for the upcoming academic year... IBM Research Labs are not representative of the software jobs' market in general. Being a Research institute, they naturally expect M.Sc.s or Ph.D.s, but many positions don't require that. I believe most positions in the market, require only a B.Sc. at most, and then want experience in certain specialised fields. I have been rejected from several jobs (and even fired from one) because I didn't have substantial experience with Ruby-on-Rails or Python/Django or whatever, and this is despite the fact that I have a B.Sc. in Electrical Engineering from the Technion, and many years of experience, including substantial FOSS involvement, and having an M.Sc. would not have helped me one iota. So if you're considering doing an M.Sc. or a Ph.D. just to get a job - don't. I suggest you instead look for jobs and meanwhile get some hands-on experience doing FOSS in promising technologies. Regards, Shlomi Fish I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I can work with future employer to study whilst I work... Antony ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Humanity - Parody of Modern Life - http://shlom.in/humanity Sesquipedallianism: making excessive use of long words. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
How I bill myself is a whole other can of worms, and has been for
years. I don't have a snappy title.
I merely have a CS BSc, so technically I'm not a computer scientist.
I've spent the last 15 years involved in software development, mainly
bespoke, and acquired good PM, business, and sysadmin(!) skills along
the way. So I don't see myself as just a software engineer, I'm
broader than that, and PM / BI / SA roles suit as well.
Whether this is a Good Thing in the eyes of people who read CVs is
unknown, as I have consulted for the last ten years - this is the
first time in that period that I'm actually looking around in the
market, considering offers etc.
Antony
2011/7/27 Jonathan Ben Avraham y...@tkos.co.il:
Hi Antony,
If you are a computer scientist then you better get an MSc, if not a PhD
quick.
If you were a software engineer then I'd say why bother.
If you are a code hacker who writes 5,000 lines a week, then don't bother
telling anyone you even have a degree - if they find out, just say you
forgot.
It depends on how you want to bill yourself.
Now as for employers, most want you to work overtime for a few years and
then they are more generous about letting you study part-time.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.com
To: Linux-IL linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: OT: Postgraduate studies
(I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)
I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.
So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been
browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite
cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
- I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year
to apply for the upcoming academic year...
I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I
can work with future employer to study whilst I work...
Antony
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
Hi Antony,
You don't need another degree to earn a reasonable salary in this
country with the skills you already apparently have. If you want a
position in research, or a titled position such as CTO then you will
need another degree or two.
- yba
On Thu, 28 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:16 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.com
To: Jonathan Ben Avraham y...@tkos.co.il
Cc: Linux-IL linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
How I bill myself is a whole other can of worms, and has been for
years. I don't have a snappy title.
I merely have a CS BSc, so technically I'm not a computer scientist.
I've spent the last 15 years involved in software development, mainly
bespoke, and acquired good PM, business, and sysadmin(!) skills along
the way. So I don't see myself as just a software engineer, I'm
broader than that, and PM / BI / SA roles suit as well.
Whether this is a Good Thing in the eyes of people who read CVs is
unknown, as I have consulted for the last ten years - this is the
first time in that period that I'm actually looking around in the
market, considering offers etc.
Antony
2011/7/27 Jonathan Ben Avraham y...@tkos.co.il:
Hi Antony,
If you are a computer scientist then you better get an MSc, if not a PhD
quick.
If you were a software engineer then I'd say why bother.
If you are a code hacker who writes 5,000 lines a week, then don't bother
telling anyone you even have a degree - if they find out, just say you
forgot.
It depends on how you want to bill yourself.
Now as for employers, most want you to work overtime for a few years and
then they are more generous about letting you study part-time.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.com
To: Linux-IL linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: OT: Postgraduate studies
(I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)
I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.
So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been
browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite
cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
- I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year
to apply for the upcoming academic year...
I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I
can work with future employer to study whilst I work...
Antony
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--
EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA ~. .~ Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
- y...@tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
--
EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
2011/7/27 Oleg Goldshmidt p...@goldshmidt.org On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.comwrote: (I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.) I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew. So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed. However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees - I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year to apply for the upcoming academic year... For most programs and schools, you can start an MSc in the spring semester as well (enrollment is around November). But (at least in the Technion) there is also late enrollment for the winter semester, for special cases, so you can start this October. If you feel that applying to jobs where just a BSc is required (there are lots of those) is settling, then I think you definitely should do another degree. Studying while working is a bad idea usually (if you can afford not to). The context switches are a waste of time. A big one. The exception is that a student with no experience has a hard time finding a job. But since you have already worked, and you are professionally mature, this does not matter to you. In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I can work with future employer to study whilst I work... Hi Anthony, IMHO, an advanced degree may help you get considered for a really interesting position and may also help get your CV into the door - at certain companies. I doubt that too many places really make an M.Sc. or a Ph.D. a _requirement_. If you are looking for a position with a lot of independence, doing some kind of research or other advanced or forward-looking stuff, it may be useful. If you are looking for development or development management (for instance), I doubt there is a lot of significance to it. It depends on the company and on its management: if they fancy themselves a research outfit and value people who can come up with and develop an original idea your chances will improve with an advanced degree. If the focus is delivering a product to spec, on schedule, and under budget then the effect is likely to be minimal. [This is by no means intended as a criticism of any product-oriented company, just an observation that is not backed by any real research or analysis.] IBM Research Labs in Haifa (HRL) do put an emphasis on advanced degrees for Research Staff Member positions and higher. I'd consider them an exception. Maybe other very large companies (Microsoft, Google, Intel?) give bonus points. I know some people (chuckle) who went quite far at HRL without a degree though, so if you are good and if your CV is impressive even there things will be flexible. A faculty or adjunct position at a university may require a degree. The chances that your employer will be happy to let you work part time and do postgraduate work are not high. Depends on the fit, and this is hard to predict. HRL may allow this on occasion. For smaller and more product-oriented companies it is less attractive, but may happen. I've seen a few cases like that, but this is not common. FWIW, I have worked at HRL, taught at a university, and worked at a number of other companies, and I have an advanced degree... ;-) Overall, I would say that a Ph.D. helped a lot to get interesting and at times unusual positions in different fields. I got it in my twenties though, you will have to assess your own willingness to invest time and effort and to work part time or not at all for a while. Maybe being an oleh hadash is an opportunity? By the way, if you decide to try more studies, check - it is quite possible you can start a masters in mid-year. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | o...@goldshmidt.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda. http://ladypine.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
2011/7/28 Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda ladyp...@gmail.com In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy. Quoting my conversation with the head of applied math department in TAU: - Is it possible to learn here during full time job? - Most of our students here are studying while working. So I'm not sure how much is that frowned in all Universities. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Elazar Leibovich elaz...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/28 Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda ladyp...@gmail.com In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy. Quoting my conversation with the head of applied math department in TAU: - Is it possible to learn here during full time job? - Most of our students here are studying while working. So I'm not sure how much is that frowned in all Universities. It is even encouraged in business management, for example, and in industrial engineering. But in CS in the Technion they require a 5 point higher grade average from external students, and extreme performance if you want to do your PhD as an external student. Prof. Orna Grumberg told me that the reason they do not like to take external students is that from their experience, these students rarely graduate. Of course, it could be that tuition is so high in some faculties, and investment is so small, that they would not care if you graduate as long as you pay. However, being a student, I tend to take the student's POV - I want to make sure I graduate. -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda. http://ladypine.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
On 28/07/2011, at 07:25, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote: Studying while working is a bad idea usually (if you can afford not to). The context switches are a waste of time. A big one. The exception is that a student with no experience has a hard time finding a job. But since you have already worked, and you are professionally mature, this does not matter to you. In addition, it is usually frowned upon by both employers and academy. I strenuously disagree. Both my wife and I, and my brother's girlfriend, have gotten post-grad degrees in our 30's and 40's. In both of the ladies' cases, though not mine, it meant more money for the same position, just by virtue of the fact that they now have a new set of initials to their name. In my case, a coworker and I discussed which of us would go back to school first so the other could pick up the slack caused by the context switches. It can be done if you find a way. My wife had permission from her management to work on schoolwork during slack work hours because it was well understood that my wife had enrolled in school for her own performance improvement, and would bring that to work with her every day thereafter. It's a long-term career sort of place, so nobody's afraid she'll jump ship at a better offer. sambo ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
OT: Postgraduate studies
Gvahim is a great resource for all new immigrants, especially those with a technical background or advanced degrees. https://gvahim.org.il/ Maybe they can give you some appropriate guidance. Haaretz article New high-tech initiative in Israel seeks to combine business with Zionism http://english.themarker.com/new-high-tech-initiative-in-israel-seeks-to-combine-business-with-zionism-1.372397 Tom Balazs Haifa ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
OT: Postgraduate studies
(I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.) I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew. So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed. However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees - I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year to apply for the upcoming academic year... I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I can work with future employer to study whilst I work... Antony ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
Hi Antony,
If you are a computer scientist then you better get an MSc, if not a PhD
quick.
If you were a software engineer then I'd say why bother.
If you are a code hacker who writes 5,000 lines a week, then don't bother
telling anyone you even have a degree - if they find out, just say you
forgot.
It depends on how you want to bill yourself.
Now as for employers, most want you to work overtime for a few years and
then they are more generous about letting you study part-time.
Regards,
- yba
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Antony Gelberg wrote:
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:41 +0300
From: Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.com
To: Linux-IL linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
Subject: OT: Postgraduate studies
(I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.)
I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet
plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO
of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew.
So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been
browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I
was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed.
However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite
cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees
- I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but
at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were
really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year
to apply for the upcoming academic year...
I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it
would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I
should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I
can work with future employer to study whilst I work...
Antony
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Re: OT: Postgraduate studies
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Antony Gelberg antony.gelb...@gmail.comwrote: (I hope this isn't so off-topic as to cause offence.) I'm an computer scientist and oleh chadash , just finished ulpan bet plus. 15 years experience in the field, 1.5 years in Israel, was CTO of a startup last year, this year I've been mostly studying Hebrew. So now it's time to polish off my CV and further my career. I've been browsing the main Israeli high-tech websites today, as an example I was just looking at the IBM Research Labs - very interesting indeed. However most positions seem to require an MSc. There is a definite cultural difference between here and the UK in terms of second degrees - I don't have one. I'm 34 and don't want to hang about forever, but at the same time I might consider postgraduate studies if they were really useful career-wise. Naturally, it's also too late in the year to apply for the upcoming academic year... I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the list on whether it would be a Good Idea to consider an MSc at this point, or whether I should settle for a role where just a BSc is required, and see if I can work with future employer to study whilst I work... Hi Anthony, IMHO, an advanced degree may help you get considered for a really interesting position and may also help get your CV into the door - at certain companies. I doubt that too many places really make an M.Sc. or a Ph.D. a _requirement_. If you are looking for a position with a lot of independence, doing some kind of research or other advanced or forward-looking stuff, it may be useful. If you are looking for development or development management (for instance), I doubt there is a lot of significance to it. It depends on the company and on its management: if they fancy themselves a research outfit and value people who can come up with and develop an original idea your chances will improve with an advanced degree. If the focus is delivering a product to spec, on schedule, and under budget then the effect is likely to be minimal. [This is by no means intended as a criticism of any product-oriented company, just an observation that is not backed by any real research or analysis.] IBM Research Labs in Haifa (HRL) do put an emphasis on advanced degrees for Research Staff Member positions and higher. I'd consider them an exception. Maybe other very large companies (Microsoft, Google, Intel?) give bonus points. I know some people (chuckle) who went quite far at HRL without a degree though, so if you are good and if your CV is impressive even there things will be flexible. A faculty or adjunct position at a university may require a degree. The chances that your employer will be happy to let you work part time and do postgraduate work are not high. Depends on the fit, and this is hard to predict. HRL may allow this on occasion. For smaller and more product-oriented companies it is less attractive, but may happen. I've seen a few cases like that, but this is not common. FWIW, I have worked at HRL, taught at a university, and worked at a number of other companies, and I have an advanced degree... ;-) Overall, I would say that a Ph.D. helped a lot to get interesting and at times unusual positions in different fields. I got it in my twenties though, you will have to assess your own willingness to invest time and effort and to work part time or not at all for a while. Maybe being an oleh hadash is an opportunity? By the way, if you decide to try more studies, check - it is quite possible you can start a masters in mid-year. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | o...@goldshmidt.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
