RE: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Hi, I got a few nice solutions, this is one of them, one thing missing, is that I am looking for a centralized solution that will not be Distro depened, or even OS deepened. It appears that at the moment there isn't one. Thanks Noam Rathaus CTO Beyond Security Ltd. http://www.securiteam.com -Original Message- From: Tzahi Fadida [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 20:42 To: Noam Rathaus; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings Hi noam, The problem is with your time zone settings in your Distro. Because in israel, the day light saving is changed on a different times then most distro timezone settings for israel. here, read this faq from iglu, it works great. http://www.iglu.org.il/faq/cache/116.html * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Noam Rathaus Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings Hi, Lately I heard rumors of the idea of changing the Day Light Savings from +-1 hour to +-2 hours, and changing it on less of a regular basis that it is now (I didn't notice it was on a regular basis ... It always appeared to be changing at random). Anyhow my question is whether there is an Israeli NTP server that keeps track of these things, allowing my organization, and others out there to keep track of these time changes. Thanks Noam Rathaus CTO Beyond Security Ltd. http://www.securiteam.com == To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 08:50:43AM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Stanislav Malyshev wrote: But do other distributions keep the Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box? I didn't know about the link above and didn't have to go AFAIK that's impossible to keep Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box for a prolonged period of times - Israeli timezone is not fixed but set by the Knesset on case-by-case basis. Unless I have missed something and sanity made a small victory in this field. Far from impossible. Currently there is a 4-years agreement betwwen the relegious and the seculars regarding the daylight saving times. As you probably remember, last year the relegious people realised they made a mistake regarding that year and tried to get an extra day around Yom-Kippur, but it didn't work out eventually. Last time there was a change was around RedHat 6.1 or 6.2, IIRC. But an administrastor with an up-to-date system did not have to worry about the time-zome update (at least linux admins) because a while before the clock change was a glibc security issue. And the fix included an up-to-date glibc, complete with the fixed timezone. couple of monthes before it Anyway, many home users tend to keep very new versions of the distro, as opposed to windows version that tend to be much older. This is probably why Microsoft simply gave up on updating the Israeli time-zome (beginning with Windows 98). It is impossible, unless you have a reliable update mechanism in place, yes. In particular, if your update mechanism is reliable enough that people actually use it when security problems are fixed, or even occasionally, then you have a machine that has accurate (enough) and up to date (enough) time zone information. These conditions are met with Debian. And might I add: glibc security issues keep popping up. So the glibc package should be kep up-to-date for other reasons :-( -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 11:49:47AM +0200, Noam Rathaus wrote: Hi, I got a few nice solutions, this is one of them, one thing missing, is that I am looking for a centralized solution that will not be Distro depened, or even OS deepened. It appears that at the moment there isn't one. This isn't an issue is most countries. This isn't an issue in linux system in Isreal now (maybe in the next years, if people go back to insanity). Thus there are no ready-made solutions for it. But it is not such a big task either. I vaugly recall someone from Brazil describing how they handled this problem, which is probably more accute there. It depends on what solution you use for managing all of your worstations. Basically what you need here is to sync /etc/localtime . On windows you need to update some registry values on all the computers. TIMTOWTDI Alternatively, you can test the compiled timezone file to see if it needs updating: zdump -v /etc/localtime |grep 2003 zdump /usr/share/zoneinfo/Asia/Jerusalem |grep 2003 This will check if the latest updated is indeed good enough for you. As for the approach of some admins of not updating the timezones at workstations and patch the time servers instead: I sure hope they realise how many things this breaks. -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Stanislav Malyshev wrote: But do other distributions keep the Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box? I didn't know about the link above and didn't have to go AFAIK that's impossible to keep Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box for a prolonged period of times - Israeli timezone is not fixed but set by the Knesset on case-by-case basis. Unless I have missed something and sanity made a small victory in this field. It is impossible, unless you have a reliable update mechanism in place, yes. In particular, if your update mechanism is reliable enough that people actually use it when security problems are fixed, or even occasionally, then you have a machine that has accurate (enough) and up to date (enough) time zone information. These conditions are met with Debian. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
But do other distributions keep the Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box? I didn't know about the link above and didn't have to go AFAIK that's impossible to keep Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box for a prolonged period of times - Israeli timezone is not fixed but set by the Knesset on case-by-case basis. Unless I have missed something and sanity made a small victory in this field. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] \/ There shall be counsels taken Stanislav Malyshev /\ Stronger than Morgul-spells phone +972-50-624945/\ JRRT LotR. whois:!SM8333 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:56:33PM -0400, Vadim Vygonets wrote: Well, it has to count time from some point (the epoch), which happens to be 1990-01-01 00:00:00 UTC. And it counts it in seconds (or 2**-32 seconds). But it has no notion of any time periods greater than a second (days, years), My understanding of http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/UT.html it that UTC is an attempt to define 1 second by means of atomic phenomena but still make it not be very different from the Earth's time. As such by international agreement, UTC is not permitted to differ from UT1 by more than 0.9 second. When it appears that the difference between the two kinds of time may approach this limit, a one-second change called a leap second is introduced into UTC. This occurs on average about once every year to a year and a half. so I don't see how any timezone may be relevant here. As a result, that site claims that UTC is equivalent to the civil time for Iceland, Liberia, Morocco, Senegal, Ghana, Mali, Mauritania, and several other countries. During the winter months, UTC is also the civil time scale for the United Kingdom and Ireland. and I have actually replaced the order where these 2 quotations are placed in that page. What they do box is upgrade to the latest version of tzdata from time to time (as soon as it's released, ideally). Maybe Debian does it more often than others, but they don't track Israel specifically. Doing that more often than others makes it track Israel, as well as some other countries, better, due to the rather constant changes that Israel does for IST. There are always many changes made to world's timezones, however strange it may sound (well, at least I was surprised; I tought timezones were more or less constant). As far as I know, making constant changes to its TZ is not specific to Israel. Some other countries do it too. One example is Brazil. -- Shaul Karl,shaulk @ actcom . net . il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Quoth Shaul Karl on Sat, Sep 27, 2003: On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 10:56:33PM -0400, Vadim Vygonets wrote: Well, it has to count time from some point (the epoch), which happens to be 1990-01-01 00:00:00 UTC. And it counts it in seconds (or 2**-32 seconds). But it has no notion of any time periods greater than a second (days, years), My understanding of http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/UT.html it that UTC is an attempt to define 1 second by means of atomic phenomena but still make it not be very different from the Earth's time. As such The atomic seconds are used in TAI as well. UTC is a time count which differs from TAI by an integral number of seconds to keep it close to UT1, so UTC second and TAI second are the same. From the POV of software, NTP counts time units, and UTC is a representation of such value in human-readable format. As a result, that site claims that UTC is equivalent to the civil time for Iceland, Liberia, Morocco, Senegal, Ghana, Mali, Mauritania, and several other countries. During the winter months, UTC is also the civil time scale for the United Kingdom and Ireland. Of course. But if you can claim with straight face that 3295358673 is the civil time in Iceland when it's 2003-09-27 20:24:33 in Israel, well... At that moment, it was 3295358673 *everywhere*, but it was 17:24:33 UTC (and the same time in Iceland), 20:24:33 in Jerusalem and 02:44:07 the next day in Tokyo. (It's 3295358673 and not 1064683473 because NTP epoch, unlike UNIX epoch, is 1990.) As far as I know, making constant changes to its TZ is not specific to Israel. Some other countries do it too. One example is Brazil. Indeed. Also, borders move, new countries are created, Eastern European countries adopt EU DST rules (and join EU), ex-USSR bounced timezones several times in the 1990s, countries change DST rules and move from one timezone to another... Vadik. -- Question Authority -- and the authorities will question you. (K) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Quoth [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, Sep 26, 2003: To be even more precise - *LOCAL* timezone is irrelevant, but NTP must keep the time in SOME timezone so you can relate to it when translating to a convenient timezone by date(1) and friends. That is what UTC (a universal timezone, which happens to be similar (not identical) to GMT) is about. Well, it has to count time from some point (the epoch), which happens to be 1990-01-01 00:00:00 UTC. And it counts it in seconds (or 2**-32 seconds). But it has no notion of any time periods greater than a second (days, years), so I don't see how any timezone may be relevant here. You could count time in hours consisting of 3751.25 seconds and years of 1024 such hours and still use NTP, just change ctime(3) and friends. I'm aware that this question is quite theological. It's not Debian, actually (just because it makes more sense to maintain it in one place for all OSes). http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm But do other distributions keep the Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box? What they do box is upgrade to the latest version of tzdata from time to time (as soon as it's released, ideally). Maybe Debian does it more often than others, but they don't track Israel specifically. There are always many changes made to world's timezones, however strange it may sound (well, at least I was surprised; I tought timezones were more or less constant). Vadik. -- When in doubt, be yourself. And if that fails, su root. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Noam Rathaus wrote: Hi, Lately I heard rumors of the idea of changing the Day Light Savings from +-1 hour to +-2 hours, and changing it on less of a regular basis that it is now (I didn't notice it was on a regular basis ... It always appeared to be changing at random). Anyhow my question is whether there is an Israeli NTP server that keeps track of these things, allowing my organization, and others out there to keep track of these time changes. Hi Noam, NTP gives out the time in UTC/GMT/Zulu/whatever they call it now. As such, changes to the timezone are not, and should not, be taken from it. I know, for my part, that the debian maintainers have been doing a wonderful job of keeping my timezone info on my machine up to date. Quite frankly, I don't know how to determine when or where the time zone will change. In complete contradiction to what I have just said, the OS challanged can download http://www.shemesh.biz/IST.reg. It's a registry entry for 2003's daylight saving for Israel. It was built for Windows 2000, but should work, at least, on NT class OS like systems. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
On Thursday 25 September 2003 13:28, Noam Rathaus wrote: Hi, Lately I heard rumors of the idea of changing the Day Light Savings from +-1 hour to +-2 hours, and changing it on less of a regular basis that it is now (I didn't notice it was on a regular basis ... It always appeared to be changing at random). Anyhow my question is whether there is an Israeli NTP server that keeps track of these things, allowing my organization, and others out there to keep track of these time changes. Dear Noam, NTP servers are clueless about timezone. They only tell the time in UTC. It is your local Operating System that knows about timezone, and adjusts the time by it. As such, no NTP server will ever know when the local time was moved to daylight savings time and back. NTP servers are universal, and anyone can sync with any NTP server, be it here or in Timbaktu. Hope this helps. --Ariel Thanks Noam Rathaus CTO Beyond Security Ltd. http://www.securiteam.com To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Ariel Biener e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP(6.5.8) public key http://www.tau.ac.il/~ariel/pgp.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Hi noam, The problem is with your time zone settings in your Distro. Because in israel, the day light saving is changed on a different times then most distro timezone settings for israel. here, read this faq from iglu, it works great. http://www.iglu.org.il/faq/cache/116.html * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Noam Rathaus Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings Hi, Lately I heard rumors of the idea of changing the Day Light Savings from +-1 hour to +-2 hours, and changing it on less of a regular basis that it is now (I didn't notice it was on a regular basis ... It always appeared to be changing at random). Anyhow my question is whether there is an Israeli NTP server that keeps track of these things, allowing my organization, and others out there to keep track of these time changes. Thanks Noam Rathaus CTO Beyond Security Ltd. http://www.securiteam.com == To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Quoth Shachar Shemesh on Thu, Sep 25, 2003: NTP gives out the time in UTC/GMT/Zulu/whatever they call it now. To be precise, timezone is irrelevant in context of NTP. I know, for my part, that the debian maintainers have been doing a wonderful job of keeping my timezone info on my machine up to date. It's not Debian, actually (just because it makes more sense to maintain it in one place for all OSes). http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm Vadik. -- To err is human, to moo bovine. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli NTP server with support for Day Light Savings
Vadim Vygonets wrote: Quoth Shachar Shemesh on Thu, Sep 25, 2003: NTP gives out the time in UTC/GMT/Zulu/whatever they call it now. To be precise, timezone is irrelevant in context of NTP. To be even more precise - *LOCAL* timezone is irrelevant, but NTP must keep the time in SOME timezone so you can relate to it when translating to a convenient timezone by date(1) and friends. That is what UTC (a universal timezone, which happens to be similar (not identical) to GMT) is about. It's not Debian, actually (just because it makes more sense to maintain it in one place for all OSes). http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm But do other distributions keep the Israeli timezone up-to-date out of the box? I didn't know about the link above and didn't have to go to Ephraim's TZ page at HUJI CS (the real authority for Israeli UNIX timezone files) since I installed Debian except in order to tell Linux users of other distributions how to keep up with the Israeli TZ, it's just a question that never comes up when you use Debian unstable. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
