Re: [OFFTOPIC] The word 'davka' is complicated to translate (was: Re: Thunderbird mailer)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 22:08, Omer Zak w...@zak.co.il wrote: There is a special blog article devoted to this subject: http://elephant.org.il/translate/davka.html --- Omer I think that I've finally found the word in English: poetic. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_justice Also, in the movie Rain Man, when the main character discovers that his brother just inherited 3 million dollars but doesn't understand the concept of money, he exclaims That's poetic -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 08:08, Shai Berger s...@platonix.com wrote: Hi Dotan, Sorry about the delay in getting back to you -- I just returned from a vacation. There's a little too little context here for me to understand what the discussion is about, or how I can help; I sincerely hope I can. Please note that I don't normally read linux-il. Have fun, Shai. Hello Shai. Regarding the proposed Hebrew layout there are some issues that I would like to address: 1) The use of third and fourth-level keymaps. 2) The exclusion of the RLE, LRE, and PDF characters. I do not see it mentioned anywhere, but I assume that the second level is reserved for an en-us layout like the current Hebrew layout is. Before I bring my arguments, I need to know if this is the case. As for the exclusion of the RLE, LRE, and PDF characters, it has been explained to me two reasons for excluding them: 1) People do not know how to use them properly 2) Different software applications end the embedded sections differently. For example, regarding plain text and email some applications terminate the embedded section at the end of a line and others at the end of the text document. I see neither as being a good reason to exclude these very useful characters from the layout. The first issue is already a non-starter as most Israeli users do not know how to use a third- or fourth- level layout. So the education issue has already been decided implicitly: the new layout includes features that people will need to learn. The second reason is also not a good argument for excluding the characters: software inconsistencies in the face of ambiguous standards is the norm, not the exception. Despite this, the characters in question are very useful for RTL environments and there exist users who do need them. I use the RLE many times per day, and the LRE occasionally. I do not use the PDF however it does have a purpose specifically for RTL languages. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 08:28, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: On the practical level, many implementations (Windows' edit control included) do line breaks and only then BiDi. As a result, all state is lost at the end of the line, and the RLE only covers the first line of the paragraph. Since most mailers (thunderbird included) do explicit line breaking in text mode, this is not even necessarily a violation of the standard, as RLEs should be forgotten at the paragraph end character (a fact you rely on when you put an RLE at the beginning, but not a PDF at the end). Thanks, I will look into this. What other problematic implementations should I look at? I'll take the time to check the applications and see what solutions I can propose, but I need to know which applications are affected. Thank you Shachar. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
The result leaves a bit to be desired: 1) The promised two buttons for determining the justification direction are nowhere to be seen (yes, I have checked that box for displaying them). Customize the toolbars (for the main 3-pane window and for the composition window) and you can add the direction button/s. One can determine the direction only by opening the BiDi preferences and setting the direction there. An acceptable ad hoc workaround? 2) Not really. Setting the preferences doesn't take effect until one closes Thundermug and reopens it. Clumsy? Umm, if I understand what you're saying, I'll have to say that to my knowledge, the default direction preference has immediate effect. Are you perhaps getting some error messahe in the Error Console? Eyal ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 18:12, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: I didn't assume anything, all the facts that I mention are referred to here (your site): http://www.lingnu.com/en/howto/78-si1452.html As for the actual criticism, when you've shown that you understood WHY the decisions were taken (documented in my blog), then you can make constructive suggestions how to make it better. Until then, you are just a joker who throws stones from afar. Fair enough. I do appreciate your team's efforts, even if I don't agree with the outcome. Your previous post explaining why RLM and LRM were not included was very clear, I understand what you said. You feel that those two characters affect the paragraph violently. I find that to be an unsatisfactory explanation for not including them, in fact I find that to be a satisfactory reason davka [1] to include them. The character perform their intended effect. The fact that the paragraph is so mungled without them that the change is violent when the paragraph is aligned properly demonstrates just how bad the characters are needed. I could say that the paragraph is violently aligned without them. For the record, Shai Berger also did not like some of the decisions. He asked to be attend personally, got his wish, made his case, got focused responses, and was satisfied that it couldn't have been done better. Where can I read the explanations? Would you mind CCing Shai with my contact info? Thanks. It is possible that things could be done better, but uninformed criticism like yours shows little more than ignorance, and does little to get us there (assuming it's possible). I'm interested in being a productive participant. If I should make a good case for including the RLM and LRM, incluuding the places to plut them on the keyboard, to whom should I address it? Thanks. [1] How to say דוקא in English? -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Thursday 18 August 2011 21:06:40 Dotan Cohen wrote: [1] How to say דווקא in English? The word is obviously related to e,g, דייק, and that's the clue. How to translate it depends on the sentence, but I usually find that it fits with precisely, or specifically, or something similar. This doesn't work with a sentence like למה אתה מתנהג כל כך דווקא, only because that's folk syntax, and the meaning has drifted. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/18/2011 09:06 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 18:12, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: I didn't assume anything, all the facts that I mention are referred to here (your site): http://www.lingnu.com/en/howto/78-si1452.html As for the actual criticism, when you've shown that you understood WHY the decisions were taken (documented in my blog), then you can make constructive suggestions how to make it better. Until then, you are just a joker who throws stones from afar. Fair enough. I do appreciate your team's efforts, even if I don't agree with the outcome. Your previous post explaining why RLM and LRM were not included was very clear, Was it? They are right there, AltGr+9 and AltGr+0. It's the other ones, RLE, LRE, RLO, LRO and PDF that were not included. Where can I read the explanations? Would you mind CCing Shai with my contact info? Thanks. BCCed. The explanation is in my blog, too. Read the comments on the posts at http://blog.shemesh.biz/?s=1452 I'm interested in being a productive participant. If I should make a good case for including the RLM and LRM, incluuding the places to plut them on the keyboard, to whom should I address it? No one. They are, already, included. If, however, you have criticism about something not in the proposed standard (or something that you feel should not be in the standard and is), my blog is the best place. If you feel you disagree with me about my answers, I believe we will be able to arrange for an invite to the next meeting as well. In any case, as soon as the standard's text is finalized and gone past editing, it will be published for community review (the official part). At that point you will be able to file objections and comments formally. Like I said before, I intend to try and change the "no touching level 2" decision myself at that point. [1] How to say דוקא in English? The word "spite" comes to mind, despite not meaning exactly the same thing in the context you were using it. Morphix (http://morfix.mako.co.il/default.aspx?q=%D7%93%D7%95%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%90source=milon) has no better suggestions (or, for that matter, any relevant suggestions at all). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
[OFFTOPIC] The word 'davka' is complicated to translate (was: Re: Thunderbird mailer)
There is a special blog article devoted to this subject: http://elephant.org.il/translate/davka.html --- Omer On Thu, 2011-08-18 at 21:38 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: On Thursday 18 August 2011 21:06:40 Dotan Cohen wrote: [1] How to say דווקא in English? The word is obviously related to e,g, דייק, and that's the clue. How to translate it depends on the sentence, but I usually find that it fits with precisely, or specifically, or something similar. This doesn't work with a sentence like למה אתה מתנהג כל כך דווקא, only because that's folk syntax, and the meaning has drifted. -- If verbal consent is not obtained in triplicate, it is date rape. Asking permission constitutes harassment. My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.htmlDelay is the deadliest form of denial.C. Northcote Parkinson My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [OFFTOPIC] The word 'davka' is complicated to translate (was: Re: Thunderbird mailer)
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 22:08, Omer Zak w...@zak.co.il wrote: There is a special blog article devoted to this subject: http://elephant.org.il/translate/davka.html --- Omer Nice, thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
Shachar, your mailing in mungling quoted replies. The past three levels of quotes all came out as single gr's. I fixed them manually below to preserve context. On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 21:57, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: Your previous post explaining why RLM and LRM were not included was very clear, Was it? They are right there, AltGr+9 and AltGr+0. It's the other ones, RLE, LRE, RLO, LRO and PDF that were not included. I did mean RLE and LRE, sorry. Had RLM or LRM been left out you would have found me on your doorstep! Where can I read the explanations? Would you mind CCing Shai with my contact info? Thanks. BCCed. The explanation is in my blog, too. Read the comments on the posts at http://blog.shemesh.biz/?s=1452 Thank you Shachar. This is the direction things should have been going from the beginning, I apologize that my -gisha- (approach?) was poorly constructed. I'm interested in being a productive participant. If I should make a good case for including the RLM and LRM, incluuding the places to plut them on the keyboard, to whom should I address it? No one. They are, already, included. If, however, you have criticism about something not in the proposed standard (or something that you feel should not be in the standard and is), my blog is the best place. If you feel you disagree with me about my answers, I believe we will be able to arrange for an invite to the next meeting as well. In any case, as soon as the standard's text is finalized and gone past editing, it will be published for community review (the official part). At that point you will be able to file objections and comments formally. Like I said before, I intend to try and change the no touching level 2 decision myself at that point. Thank you. Your engagement of the community is vitally important and well appreciated. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/18/2011 10:53 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote: Shachar, your mailing in mungling quoted replies. The past three levels of quotes all came out as single gr's. I fixed them manually below to preserve context. for some reason, latest thunderbirds (hurrah, we came back on topic!) refuses to default to both plain text and HTML format. My options for default are either HTML only or text only. Since there is no way to embed paragraph direction (and other changes) in text only, I go for HTML only and hope to remember to change to HTML+text for all outgoing emails. Sorry about that. If anyone here knows how to change this, please let me know. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [OFFTOPIC] The word 'davka' is complicated to translate (was: Re: Thunderbird mailer)
On Thursday 18 August 2011 22:08:29 Omer Zak wrote: There is a special blog article devoted to this subject: http://elephant.org.il/translate/davka.html It's not harder to translate than any other word. It's only necessary to think what one wants to say, which not everyone does. As I said earlier, the word had become overlaid with extraneous meanings, which means only that there is an enlarged set of possible meanings for you to pick. Spite, for example, simply doesn't have any connection with the root of the word. It's an addon. Another word with a similar mystique is Nu, in Yiddish. Any number of people will tell you that it is untranslatable, although it is a simple Russian word for which one can plug in Well in English: A: Well?Nu? B: Eh, we-e-ell.Eh, nu-u-u-u. A: WELL!!! NU!!! -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
2011/8/18 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Since there is no way to embed paragraph direction (and other changes) in text only, Yes there is, just put this non-printing character at the beginning of your RTL emails: - - -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/19/2011 12:52 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2011/8/18 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Since there is no way to embed paragraph direction (and other changes) in text only, Yes there is, just put this non-printing character at the beginning of your RTL emails: - - Doesn't do the same thing, neither practically nor theoretically (though, for different reasons). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 08:04, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: On 08/19/2011 12:52 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2011/8/18 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Since there is no way to embed paragraph direction (and other changes) in text only, Yes there is, just put this non-printing character at the beginning of your RTL emails: - - Doesn't do the same thing, neither practically nor theoretically (though, for different reasons). Shachar Really? Was is the effect of embedding paragraph direction in HTML? What is the effect of the character that I posted? How do they differ? This is an important question, my argument regarding the inclusion of some non-printing characters hinges on their usefulness. I find this one to be essential. I need to know how it is not working for you, or how its behaviour is different from what you expect. Thanks. I think that this comment is the breakthrough that we need. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/19/2011 08:13 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: Really? Was is the effect of embedding paragraph direction in HTML? What is the effect of the character that I posted? How do they differ? On the theoretical level, an RLE at the beginning of the paragraph means to embed an RTL run inside the paragraph. This means that you have a basically LTR paragraph with the actual text inside an RTL run. This goes to paragraph alignment - an LTR paragraph should be left aligned. You could claim that the paragraph auto-detection will do the rest, but if that were true, you could put an RLM instead of an RLE at the beginning of the paragraph. There is also an hypothetical case that of unbalanced PDFs reverting the effect, but I'm only bringing it up as a side note, as I agree that for all practical purposes, this is irrelevant. On the practical level, many implementations (Windows' edit control included) do line breaks and only then BiDi. As a result, all state is lost at the end of the line, and the RLE only covers the first line of the paragraph. Since most mailers (thunderbird included) do explicit line breaking in text mode, this is not even necessarily a violation of the standard, as RLEs should be forgotten at the paragraph end character (a fact you rely on when you put an RLE at the beginning, but not a PDF at the end). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 22:19, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: I suggest that you tap the existing resources, that clearly document the reasons behind both decisions, rather than assume (incorrectly, I might add) stuff about it, and then fling it around like it was a curse-word. I meant to be harsh, not offensive. What did I assume incorrectly? I didn't assume anything, all the facts that I mention are referred to here (your site): http://www.lingnu.com/en/howto/78-si1452.html -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/15/2011 11:54 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 22:19, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: I suggest that you tap the existing resources, that clearly document the reasons behind both decisions, rather than assume (incorrectly, I might add) stuff about it, and then fling it around like it was a curse-word. I meant to be harsh, not offensive. What did I assume incorrectly? Emacs. I believe none of the people present there ever used it. I didn't assume anything, all the facts that I mention are referred to here (your site): http://www.lingnu.com/en/howto/78-si1452.html As for the actual criticism, when you've shown that you understood WHY the decisions were taken (documented in my blog), then you can make constructive suggestions how to make it better. Until then, you are just a joker who throws stones from afar. For the record, Shai Berger also did not like some of the decisions. He asked to be attend personally, got his wish, made his case, got focused responses, and was satisfied that it couldn't have been done better. It is possible that things could be done better, but uninformed criticism like yours shows little more than ignorance, and does little to get us there (assuming it's possible). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 07:53, Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz wrote: I should point out that the document is somewhat out of date, as we are quickly approaching a keyboard layout that: 1. Will be standard and 2. Will have all of the keys that lyx has. How does an upcoming standard make the page somewhat out of date? Having said that, it will not have LRE/RLE/PDF (nor LRO and RLO, for that matter). This is not an accidental omission. These keys change the appearance of the paragraph they are typed into so violently that even people very versed in the UBA tend to lose the spot the corresponding PDF should go. At least the LRM and RLM are there. There are some issues with the new keyboard layout: 1) The lack of LRE/RLE/PDF. What is violent about the change of appearance? Like any other tool, if one understands how to use it then it works. If not then you'll get unexpected results. Just because some people don't know how to use it doesn't mean that the tool should simply cease to be available. 2) Four levels of keys? That is torture to type on. Emacs users, let me guess. Don't get me wrong, there are some great things about the new layout. The placement of the Shin dots, for example. But it looks to be painful to type on and limiting. The Lyx layout is a breeze to type on. זֶה לֹא דוֹרֶש שוּם מַאֲמָץ. The only keys that I used there were the alphanumerics and Shift. It's as simple as typing English, no triple whamies or whatever the Emacs crowd calls their nose-finger. Furthermore, the LRE and RLE are extremely useful for typing email. There is no other way to ensure that the recipient will display the message correctly. I don't even use the PDF symbol, just RLE before RTL sections and if there is an LTR section then I start it with an LRE and begin the next RTL section with an RLE. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/14/2011 08:05 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote: At least the LRM and RLM are there. There are some issues with the new keyboard layout: 1) The lack of LRE/RLE/PDF. What is violent about the change of appearance? Like any other tool, if one understands how to use it then it works. If not then you'll get unexpected results. Just because some people don't know how to use it doesn't mean that the tool should simply cease to be available. 2) Four levels of keys? That is torture to type on. Emacs users, let me guess. I suggest that you tap the existing resources, that clearly document the reasons behind both decisions, rather than assume (incorrectly, I might add) stuff about it, and then fling it around like it was a curse-word. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:01, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.com wrote: I tried Thunderbird for about a month and concluded that I don't like it. De gustibus non est disputandum. I'm back to Kmail now, with enhanced respect for it. טעם וריח. (I had to google it) As for problems of text orientation, including which side Hebrew text starts on in TB, how to coax an editor to allow a punctuation mark at the end of a paragraph withoug screwing up the last line, etc., I recommend Dotan's little article on the subject. Sorry, I don't know where he posts it. Thunderbird, by the way, requires an addon in order to handle RTL properly. It's hardly little, but posted here: http://dotancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html Stan in fact was the major contributor in making the English readable! -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
One tangential note to Dotan's article regarding inserting non-printing characters: In OpenOffice, you can use "Insert-Formatting Mark", which gives you a handy submenu of such characters. This is more convenient than using "Insert-Special Character", which requires sorting through a bunch of character subsets. Alan On 08/13/2011 09:56 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: It's hardly "little", but posted here: http://dotancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html Stan in fact was the major contributor in making the English readable! -- Alan Yaniger Tk Open Systems 0546-841-481 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
Please forgive the top-posting. I think anything else would be cruel in
this case.
The quoted message is entirely in HTML formatting. I don't know why
anybody uses HTML in email, but it is altogether out of place in list
traffic. It is worse in this case, because the message contains no
plain-text part at all. Please write to the list in Plain Text only.
On Saturday 13 August 2011 20:42:36 Alan Yaniger wrote:
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
html style=direction: rtl;
head
meta content=text/html; charset=UTF-8
http-equiv=Content-Type title/title
stylebody p { margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0pt; } /style
/head
body style=direction: ltr;
bidimailui-detected-decoding-type=UTF-8 text=#00
bgcolor=#ff
One tangential note to Dotan's article regarding inserting
non-printing characters:br
br
In OpenOffice, you can use Insert-gt;Formatting Mark, which
gives you a handy submenu of such characters. This is more
convenient than using Insert-gt;Special Character, which requires
sorting through a bunch of character subsets.br
br
Alanbr
br
On 08/13/2011 09:56 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
blockquote style=direction: ltr;
cite=mid:CAKDXFkOZgTY1aardX9=iX-HmUA5=J1jswFjh=pa8jtauae-...@mail.gm
ail.com type=cite
pre style=direction: ltr; wrap=
/pre
pre style=direction: ltr; wrap=
It's hardly little, but posted here:
a class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href=http://dotancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html;http://dot
ancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html/a
Stan in fact was the major contributor in making the English
readable!
/pre
/blockquote
p style=direction: ltr;br
/p
br
pre style=direction: ltr; class=moz-signature cols=72--
Alan Yaniger
Tk Open Systems
0546-841-481
/pre
/body
/html
--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: Thunderbird mailer
2011/8/13 Alan Yaniger a...@tkos.co.il: One tangential note to Dotan's article regarding inserting non-printing characters: In OpenOffice, you can use Insert-Formatting Mark, which gives you a handy submenu of such characters. This is more convenient than using Insert-Special Character, which requires sorting through a bunch of character subsets. Thanks, Alan, I added that info to the page. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/13/2011 08:42 PM, Alan Yaniger wrote: One tangential note to Dotan's article regarding inserting non-printing characters: In OpenOffice, you can use Insert-Formatting Mark, which gives you a handy submenu of such characters. This is more convenient than using Insert-Special Character, which requires sorting through a bunch of character subsets. I should point out that the document is somewhat out of date, as we are quickly approaching a keyboard layout that: 1. Will be standard and 2. Will have all of the keys that lyx has. Having said that, it will not have LRE/RLE/PDF (nor LRO and RLO, for that matter). This is not an accidental omission. These keys change the appearance of the paragraph they are typed into so violently that even people very versed in the UBA tend to lose the spot the corresponding PDF should go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
With all the respect to Thuderbird, I moved to Gmail and Google Apps years ago. I recommend using Gmail or Google Apps for email. Then you can use any computer to read and write mail, not just at home or your laptop. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 15:17, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel __**_ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-ilhttp://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
Hi Uri, On Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:58:40 +0300 Uri Even-Chen u...@speedy.net wrote: With all the respect to Thuderbird, I moved to Gmail and Google Apps years ago. I recommend using Gmail or Google Apps for email. Then you can use any computer to read and write mail, not just at home or your laptop. the problem is that Stan asked for help with Thunderbird. He did not ask which other mailers one can recommend, so your answer is not to the point. See: http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/web/use-qmail-instead/ Furthermore, Thunderbird and GMail are not mutually exclusive, as one can use Thunderbird as an interface to GMail's IMAP service. Regards, Shlomi Fish Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ways_to_do_it.html Tel Aviv, a functional definition: free parking space‐free space. — Shachar Shemesh ( http://blog.shemesh.biz/?p=435 ) Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Friday 12 August 2011 18:58:40 you wrote: With all the respect to Thuderbird, I moved to Gmail and Google Apps years ago. I recommend using Gmail or Google Apps for email. Then you can use any computer to read and write mail, not just at home or your laptop. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ Thanks for your information. I already have a webmail interface to this account through my hostingb service, in addition to an alumni account through my university -- and don't use either of them. No need for Google. I tried Thunderbird for about a month and concluded that I don't like it. De gustibus non est disputandum. I'm back to Kmail now, with enhanced respect for it. As for problems of text orientation, including which side Hebrew text starts on in TB, how to coax an editor to allow a punctuation mark at the end of a paragraph withoug screwing up the last line, etc., I recommend Dotan's little article on the subject. Sorry, I don't know where he posts it. Thunderbird, by the way, requires an addon in order to handle RTL properly. On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 15:17, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel __**_ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-ilhttp://mai lman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
2011/8/4 Tomer Cohen to...@gmx.net: And if you want to see the RTL composition feature embedded to Thunderbird in the future, please comment on the following two bugs and mention how important is this feature to you: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=464436 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119857 Thanks! Thanks, Tomer. Whoever wrote that blocker attachment for bug 464436 was obviously just looking for excuses not to implement BiDiUi. There's not a single regression in there, and hardly any valid concerns at all. I mentioned that on the bug. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 03:17:36PM +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? Here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ -- Didi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ -- Shimi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 03:23:22PM +0300, shimi wrote: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ Do you think there is some deep hidden relation between the fact that both of us replied almost the same answer, almost at the same time, and our email addresses for this list? :-) -- Didi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/04/2011 03:23 PM, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 03:17:36PM +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? Here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ Just notice that the latest download version of the plugin does not work with Thunderbird 5. I downloaded the sources and they installed fine. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/04/2011 04:36 PM, Stan Goodman wrote: On 08/04/2011 03:58 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: On 08/04/2011 03:23 PM, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 03:17:36PM +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? Here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ Just notice that the latest download version of the plugin does not work with Thunderbird 5. I downloaded the sources and they installed fine. Shachar There is a week-old Beta in which the developer has much faith, saying that it solves "many problems". He doesn't mention that it doesn't solve this one, about which he must surely know. The sources work, but the xpi doesn't? So it's code must be in order, but you've compiled(?) it correctly and he hasn't? Where are these sources? Are there directions about what to do with it? Do those directions differ from how you handles it? My knowledge is more than a week old. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 04/08/2011 16:27, Shachar Shemesh wrote: On 08/04/2011 04:36 PM, Stan Goodman wrote: On 08/04/2011 03:58 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: On 08/04/2011 03:23 PM, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 03:17:36PM +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: So far, I have not found a way to write a Hebrew message with lines beginning at the right side of the window. With Kmail it was obvious --- there were buttons for right, left, and center positioning. Where is something equivalent in Thunderbird? Here: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/thunderbird/addon/bidi-mail-ui/ Just notice that the latest download version of the plugin does not work with Thunderbird 5. I downloaded the sources and they installed fine. Shachar There is a week-old Beta in which the developer has much faith, saying that it solves many problems. He doesn't mention that it doesn't solve this one, about which he must surely know. The sources work, but the xpi doesn't? So it's code must be in order, but you've compiled(?) it correctly and he hasn't? Where are these sources? Are there directions about what to do with it? Do those directions differ from how you handles it? My knowledge is more than a week old. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com Open the xpi file and change the max version in the rdf file. -- Moish ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/04/2011 07:01 PM, Moish wrote:
Open the xpi file and change the max version in the rdf file.
I've opened the xpi and rdf files. The relevant part of the latter is:
*
em:targetApplication
Description
em:id{3550f703-e582-4d05-9a08-453d09bdfdc6}/em:id
em:minVersion2.0/em:minVersion
em:maxVersion5.*/em:maxVersion
/Description
/em:targetApplication
*
TB is v5.0. BiDi seems to allow even later releases (5.*), which should
be enough without change. But I've changed that to 5.9, and refreshed
the xpi file. I thought then to install the refurbished extension by
looking for the Install button under Tools, but it is no longer there
(because now TB knows how to install extensions from the Web, and
doesn't need it).
How can I do this?
--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 04/08/2011 18:52, Stan Goodman wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:01 PM, Moish wrote:
Open the xpi file and change the max version in the rdf file.
I've opened the xpi and rdf files. The relevant part of the latter is:
*
em:targetApplication
Description
em:id{3550f703-e582-4d05-9a08-453d09bdfdc6}/em:id
em:minVersion2.0/em:minVersion
em:maxVersion5.*/em:maxVersion
/Description
/em:targetApplication
*
TB is v5.0. BiDi seems to allow even later releases (5.*), which should
be enough without change. But I've changed that to 5.9, and refreshed
the xpi file. I thought then to install the refurbished extension by
looking for the Install button under Tools, but it is no longer there
(because now TB knows how to install extensions from the Web, and
doesn't need it).
How can I do this?
TB-Tools-Addons-click the little cog wheel for Install from a file
--
Moish
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Re: Thunderbird mailer
On 08/04/2011 08:58 PM, Moish wrote:
On 04/08/2011 18:52, Stan Goodman wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:01 PM, Moish wrote:
Open the xpi file and change the max version in the rdf file.
I've opened the xpi and rdf files. The relevant part of the latter is:
*
em:targetApplication
Description
em:id{3550f703-e582-4d05-9a08-453d09bdfdc6}/em:id
em:minVersion2.0/em:minVersion
em:maxVersion5.*/em:maxVersion
/Description
/em:targetApplication
*
TB is v5.0. BiDi seems to allow even later releases (5.*), which should
be enough without change. But I've changed that to 5.9, and refreshed
the xpi file. I thought then to install the refurbished extension by
looking for the Install button under Tools, but it is no longer there
(because now TB knows how to install extensions from the Web, and
doesn't need it).
How can I do this?
TB-Tools-Addons-click the little cog wheel for Install from a file
I FOUND IT!! I FOUND IT!! Tiny, sitting all alone, inconspicuously, so
as not to attract attention, with no label, and no indication about what
kind of thing it is intended to do. The developer, indeed the whole
Thundermug team NEEDS to read a book about how to make a user interface.
Also a briefing by psychologists, to convince them that people who
didn't participate in the design of the application don't know
instinctively what they had in mind.
The result leaves a bit to be desired:
1) The promised two buttons for determining the justification direction
are nowhere to be seen (yes, I have checked that box for displaying
them). One can determine the direction only by opening the BiDi
preferences and setting the direction there. An acceptable ad hoc
workaround?
2) Not really. Setting the preferences doesn't take effect until one
closes Thundermug and reopens it. Clumsy?
Starts to make Kmail2 + Akonadi sound better.
Thanks for your assistance, Moish...
--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel
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