Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:03:32 -0600 Andrew Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] scribbled intuitively: Matthew Carpenter wrote: If you don't want to read it, note that the OT and TID tags have not gone away and just delete the messages. On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:33:03 -0600 Andrew Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff,I'd go to church. === I had really hoped to avoid involving myself in this thread, but I must say that, to this observer, the whole thing to, fro, and in between is out of hand. Can't everyone just quietly (as in without trying to add the last word), just let this thread die. I hate to sound like some sort of list HITLER, but I really would like to see the end of this thread here on this list. Just my US$0.02, Mike -- He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you., he really is an idiot. -Groucho Marx ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Tuesday 25 June 2002 14:43, you wrote: Nicely put. I can't believe the number of people willing to hang their hat on chucking the Bible becuase of all sorts of inconsistencies without being able to list any. Inconsistencies 1. Book of Genesis: Two creation myths fused together to form an inconsistent creation story. In the first fthe animals are created and then man is created both male and female on the sixth day. Second story of Genesis God plants a garden after the creation and plunks Adam into the garden on the second day then he creates the animals and brings them to Adam to name. On the sixth day he creates Eve from a rib of Adam, although he had already created Mrs Adam on the sixth day of the first creation story man both male and female. Must assume that the first Mrs. Adam and kids were left to shift for themselves after God snatched up Adam. 2. The Tree of knowledge. God told Adam and Eve that they could eat of any the trees save one: the Tree of Knowledge. For on the day that you do you will surely die. They ate they didn't die. Book Thumpers try to get around this little inconsistency by claimimg that man had been created immortal and died after he was driven from the garden. This is negated by Genesis and the Tree of Life. Contrary to the thumpers claims man was not driven from the garden for disobeying God but because God feared that Adam and Eve would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal with the knowledge of good and evil and be like Gods themselves. The Snake ( and it was a serpent not the Devil) hadn't lied he just didn't tell the whole truth. The claim of the thumpers of Original Sin and death are negated by this part of Genesis. 3. This fear of Man's capabilities is also shown in the story of the Tower of Babel. Man was not afflicted by God with different languages for presumption. He was afflicted because of capability; for God said, I see now that man can do whatever he sets his mind to do. He claimed that man could do this because he had a common language. So he fixed that by insuring that everyone spoke his own tongue. Therefore we must lay every war that different languages had a part in on God's doorstep. A second inconsistency is the so-called infallibility of God. Somehow he had failed to notice the capability of man. Tune in next week kiddies when we go into the Real Story of Exodus Lee ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? Thanks. Harry G On Wed June 26 2002 2:40 pm, Lee wrote: On Tuesday 25 June 2002 14:43, you wrote: Nicely put. I can't believe the number of people willing to hang their hat on chucking the Bible becuase of all sorts of inconsistencies without being able to list any. Inconsistencies 1. Book of Genesis: Two creation myths fused together to form an inconsistent creation story. In the first fthe animals are created and then man is created both male and female on the sixth day. Second story of Genesis God plants a garden after the creation and plunks Adam into the garden on the second day then he creates the animals and brings them to Adam to name. On the sixth day he creates Eve from a rib of Adam, although he had already created Mrs Adam on the sixth day of the first creation story man both male and female. Must assume that the first Mrs. Adam and kids were left to shift for themselves after God snatched up Adam. 2. The Tree of knowledge. God told Adam and Eve that they could eat of any the trees save one: the Tree of Knowledge. For on the day that you do you will surely die. They ate they didn't die. Book Thumpers try to get around this little inconsistency by claimimg that man had been created immortal and died after he was driven from the garden. This is negated by Genesis and the Tree of Life. Contrary to the thumpers claims man was not driven from the garden for disobeying God but because God feared that Adam and Eve would also eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal with the knowledge of good and evil and be like Gods themselves. The Snake ( and it was a serpent not the Devil) hadn't lied he just didn't tell the whole truth. The claim of the thumpers of Original Sin and death are negated by this part of Genesis. 3. This fear of Man's capabilities is also shown in the story of the Tower of Babel. Man was not afflicted by God with different languages for presumption. He was afflicted because of capability; for God said, I see now that man can do whatever he sets his mind to do. He claimed that man could do this because he had a common language. So he fixed that by insuring that everyone spoke his own tongue. Therefore we must lay every war that different languages had a part in on God's doorstep. A second inconsistency is the so-called infallibility of God. Somehow he had failed to notice the capability of man. Tune in next week kiddies when we go into the Real Story of Exodus Lee ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
**MAJOR SNIPPAGE** Tune in next week kiddies when we go into the Real Story of Exodus and what does any of this have to do with linux.. lets end this thread. Jim -- quattro... the unfair advantage... ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Tuesday 25 June 2002 15:12, you wrote: On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:18:10 -0400 Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Later, we had John Calvin, who preached never mind what Christ said about the rich not getting into paradise. The real truth is that God already knows who will be saved and who will not. Therefore it is only logical to believe that God pours his blessings on those predestined few and the mark of God's favor was riches. A real double banger. No thought required and God's blessings on riches swindled from the undestined. Now here's a slant I'm not quite sure I've heard before... I know that the church screwed up the Irish when the Potato-famine hit and they were told that it was God's will for them to die... but I'm fairly certain John Calvin wasn't ever quoted as saying that. If he was, I'd be interested in seeing it, since I'm quite sure (IIRC) that he said quite the opposite... You're confusing John Knox with John Calven . Interesting opinion... I agree that there is a lot of work ethic issues in the world, though I'm not sure they are tied to protestants more than other folk. Creationism is a belief, as is Evolotion, The Big Bang, and any other myth about how and why we came to be. Truth is (if you do your homework beyond those lying high-school textbooks which show the evolutionary path from a museum, failing to include the wall-caption which reads Many of these skelletons are artists' creations and are not supported by the fossil record.) that there isn't much science supporting the Scientific explanation of the world. I'd like to allow the inclusion of Carbon Dating to the discussion, but in reality, we only know what Carbon-14 has done in the last what, couple decades? To say nothing of our complete lack of historical knowledge prior to 6000 years ago (too bad Adam and Eve didn't write down how Carbon-14 broke down back then... At least 6000 years is better than 15 or 20). You will also find several books which disect the non-christian Scientific methods of coming up with outright lies which support whatever the popular evolutionary theory-of-the-month was. These accounts are really quite fascinating. One of them details how a non-scientist Satanist (I'm not bashing him, this was the fact) was lofted into a highly respected research position... and happened to be the leader of the research which proved that homosexuality is inborn... The really sick part was that his work was later debunked, but nobody wanted to hear it so the media didn't make a big deal about it. Now you're playing on my ballfield. I happen to be a biologist with a six year college degree. A little beyond high school textbook stage. One of the reasons that high school text books do such a lousey job is because of watering down of evolutionary theory to be least objectionable to the Book Thumpers. Evolution is not a weekly changing fad. The central core as explained by Charles Darwin and Henery Wallace, in 1854, is still intact. New discoveries simply add onto it and fill out more of the puzzle of existence. Evolution, unlike Creationism is a proper scientific theory in accordance with the Philosphy of Science and formulated by the Scientific Method. The Philiosphy of Science holds that the natural sciences are the observation and explanation of the process of the natural world i.e. the world as preceived by the five senses. The study of first causes (creators) is more properly in the fields of study of philiosphy and theology. So Creation fails the Philiosophy of Science test as it relys on supernatural (not of the natural world) creator. It also fails the test of the scientific method. A scientific theory to be accepted must follow the following process. First observation of an occuance i.e. different species that seem to be related. Two: formulation of a possible explanation based on observation - a hypothesis. The next step is where Creationis fails - testing of the hypothesis. Followed by evaluation of the hypothesis in regard to test data. Then either disgard the hypothesis or further testing. Formulation as a theory and publishing for peer review. If accepted by peer review, acceptance as a scientific theory with the understanding that it is only an incomplete explanation main difference between theory and Natural Law) which can be amended or discarded if later evidence shows it to be false. Creationism starts with I. The Book and everything in it is the revealed word of God. It is true and need not comply with the same rules that science applies to other theories. It must be accepted because I belive it. Therefore biology is a lie. Astronomy that claims that the universe is 15 billion years old is a lie. Physics that claims that universe is older than 6,000 yrs old is a lie. Geology that is based on a two to five billion year old Earth is a lie. All science is a lie only the Book of Thump is true. Shut down the schools and send
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Harry G wrote: Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? Thanks. Harry G snip How about doing it privately and not on this list? Then everyone can continue what we came here for without sucking up bandwidth, patience, and disk space. -- Andrew Mathews --- andy.nmcourts.com Wednesday Jun 26 2002 13:50:00 MDT --- Don't let go of what you've got hold of, until you have hold of something else. -- First Rule of Wing Walking ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Wednesday 26 June 2002 14:50, you wrote: **MAJOR SNIPPAGE** Tune in next week kiddies when we go into the Real Story of Exodus and what does any of this have to do with linux.. lets end this thread. Jim God punished Egypt for using M$. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Wednesday 26 June 2002 14:50, you wrote: Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? Thanks. Harry G Genesis 1:27, 2:27, 2:15, 2:17 2:19, 2:22, 3:22 11:6 ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Harry G wrote: Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? I mind, so please don't. For the 4th time, this is a *LINUX* list. Take the religious discussion elsewhere. I mean really, there's even a list available to go to. Take it there, and stop wasting eveyrone's bandwidth with this stuff that has absolutely no connection to linux. I'm not bashing religion. I'm bashing the fact that its the primary topic of discussion here, even after Doug politely ordered everyone to halt it. -- ~~ Lonni J Friedman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Step-by-step TyGeMo http://netllama.ipfox.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Harry G wrote: Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? Thanks. Harry G For once, I'm finding an OT thread quite interesting. I like to see this continued and not die. But, this is not the right forum. Can the principals in this discussion take this thread to the 'General' list? ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Keith Morse wrote: On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Harry G wrote: Would you mind stating scripture and verse so it can be checked? Thanks. Harry G For once, I'm finding an OT thread quite interesting. I like to see this continued and not die. But, this is not the right forum. Can the principals in this discussion take this thread to the 'General' list? Indeed, for those who missed it, you can subscribe to the general list here: http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/general and post to it here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ~~ Lonni J Friedman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Step-by-step TyGeMo http://netllama.ipfox.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
HITLER AND TO THINK I LEFT THE CALDERA LIST FOR THIS! From: Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] (AND NUMEROUS OTHERS) On Tuesday 25 June 2002 14:43, you wrote: Nicely put. I can't believe the number of people willing to hang their hat on chucking the Bible...1. Book of Genesis: Two creation myths fused together to form an inconsistent Inconsistencies creation story. In the first... ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Jack Berger wrote: HITLER AND TO THINK I LEFT THE CALDERA LIST FOR THIS! You seem to be the only one carrying on the thread. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:18:10 -0400 Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, the current reigning religion in this part of the world has always been numbered with those who prefer not have the common man think. Don't think. Just believe what the shaman, priest, televanglist Not just this part of the world. I was in Riyadh a while back and Saudi TV has a segment where an Islamic scholar answers questions from letters. I vividly recall one in which the viewer asked why they circled Mohammad's 'house' seven times (in Mecca - a very important thing to do). The person wanted to know because his non-islamic friends had asked and he had no answer. Instead of explaining why, the scholar strongly chastised the guy for attempting to answer questions. The, after all, was the job of scholars who are educated to know the reasons. It is not the job of an untrained believer. He went so far as to say that the person was getting involved in things that the Koran specifically forbade - offering opinions about which wou know nothing. After finishing the tirade, he went to the next letter - never having answered the actual question! What I thought was most odd was that the letter writer did NOT offer an opinion to his non-islamic friends. He consulted an islamic scholar for correct information. For which he wes publicly chastised. -- ++===+ | Roger Oberholtzer | E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | OPQ Systems AB | WWW: http://www.opq.se/ | | Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 |Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 | | 115 32 Stockholm | Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 | | Sweden | Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 | ++===+ ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Ronnie Gauthier wrote: you mean you dont attend 8am mass each morning?!? how ever do you expect to be saved? Not all need it. g On Monday 24 June 2002 09:42 pm, Mike Chambers wrote: Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff, I'd go to church. Mike Ditto. I'd rather discuss Windows than religion. -- Andrew Mathews --- andy.linux-works.org Tuesday Jun 25 2002 07:25:00 MDT --- I can't decide whether to commit suicide or go bowling. -- Florence Henderson ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Nicely put. I can't believe the number of people willing to hang their hat on chucking the Bible becuase of all sorts of inconsistencies without being able to list any. On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:53:25 -0500 Michael Hipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't open to interpretation. We just hamper it with our limited understanding, lack of faith, injection of human agendas, and reliance on what others say it says rather than on what it really says. Just to name a few of the enemie's tricks. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:18:10 -0400 Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, the current reigning religion in this part of the world has always been numbered with those who prefer not have the common man think. Don't think. Just believe what the shaman, priest, televanglist says is in the book and paradise is yours. Never mind injustice. The bad guys will get theirs in the next world, so just go along with the political corruption, greed, environmental destruction and whatever is necessary to make the payments on the SUV. Correction: All those who would rather manipulate you to their own benefit than show the Love only God can give you. These fall into that category. In the Middle Ages we had the Great Chain of Being. So what if the local noble had raped your daughter on her wedding night and driven off the village herd to pay for a celebration when his son became of age to join the family firm of Robber Baron and Son, Ltd. If you were a serf God had put you on the bottom of the chain just as he had placed the baron on the top. To question your place was to question God. To demand justice was presumption to take into man's hands that which was God's. Again, isn't it grand when something started for good can fall to the sins of greed for money and power? There is a trite phrase used among us believers: I'm not perfect, just forgiven. I'm not sure that applies to many who were involved in the previous corruption. This is why the Protestants came into being. Martin Luther (and to be fair, others before and after him whose names I mostly forget) saw the difference between what the Bible said and what the Holy Roman Catholic Church of the time was saying. While I believe that corruption and sin has stayed in the Catholic Church through the centuries, I do believe that many areas of the Catholic Church have done quite a good job recovering... they've not had an easy road to hoe. To start seeking God instead of being misguided sheep? Again, back to the thinking discussion again. Later, we had John Calvin, who preached never mind what Christ said about the rich not getting into paradise. The real truth is that God already knows who will be saved and who will not. Therefore it is only logical to believe that God pours his blessings on those predestined few and the mark of God's favor was riches. A real double banger. No thought required and God's blessings on riches swindled from the undestined. Now here's a slant I'm not quite sure I've heard before... I know that the church screwed up the Irish when the Potato-famine hit and they were told that it was God's will for them to die... but I'm fairly certain John Calvin wasn't ever quoted as saying that. If he was, I'd be interested in seeing it, since I'm quite sure (IIRC) that he said quite the opposite... That mindless theology of greed still survives today in the heresy of the Protestant Work Ethic. Along with Creationism, which is an attack on all sciences that dare to claim that the universe was created before 4004 BC Aug. 4th at 10:04 am. Couple this with the current efforts by right wing non-christian fundamentalists to stifle stem cell research. So what if a cure for cancer can be found or new organ produced. The pain, suffering and death is acceptable as long as fundamentalist religious beliefs aren't questioned. Then there is the Church's objection to in vitro fertilization because somehow the soul can only be fused with the embryo in a womb not in glass ware. Interesting opinion... I agree that there is a lot of work ethic issues in the world, though I'm not sure they are tied to protestants more than other folk. Creationism is a belief, as is Evolotion, The Big Bang, and any other myth about how and why we came to be. Truth is (if you do your homework beyond those lying high-school textbooks which show the evolutionary path from a museum, failing to include the wall-caption which reads Many of these skelletons are artists' creations and are not supported by the fossil record.) that there isn't much science supporting the Scientific explanation of the world. I'd like to allow the inclusion of Carbon Dating to the discussion, but in reality, we only know what Carbon-14 has done in the last what, couple decades? To say nothing of our complete lack of historical knowledge prior to 6000 years ago (too bad Adam and Eve didn't write down how Carbon-14 broke down back then... At least 6000 years is better than 15 or 20). You will also find several books which disect the non-christian Scientific methods of coming up with outright lies which support whatever the popular evolutionary theory-of-the-month was. These accounts are really quite fascinating. One of them details how a non-scientist Satanist (I'm not bashing him, this was the fact) was lofted into a highly respected research position... and happened to be the leader of the research which proved that homosexuality is inborn... The really
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I have a very simple way of keeping my inbox from getting a lot of mail I
don't want to see. In my .procmailrc file, I have a section like this up
at the top:
:0:
* TID
{
:0 c
| echo Dumped a TID $LOGFILE
:0
/dev/null
}
Now, I do accept all TID's, but others might like to avoid them.
To put multiple rejects on one line, something like this might work:
* TID|OT|Joel Hammer|etc...
This is also a great way to avoid getting your mailbox filled up when you
are on vacation and don't want to unsubscribe from your various email lists.
Just put the addresses of the email lists on that line. For example,
* TID|OT|Joel Hammer|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Joel
P.S. I am not sure if this script works properly regarding the echo
command, but it does dump the mail to dev/null.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 02:49:51PM -0400, Net Llama! wrote:
Can we *PLEASE* kill this thread? Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!
Enough already. I'm not the only one who isn't interested in getting
their INBOX filled with a religious debate. This has gone well beyond a
simple off topic thread to the point where its pretty much the only
thread.
If anyone really wants to continue this, subscribe to the General list:
http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/
and debate religion until Doug runs out of bandwidth.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Matthew Carpenter wrote:
Nicely put. I can't believe the number of people willing to hang their
hat on chucking the Bible becuase of all sorts of inconsistencies without
being able to list any.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:53:25 -0500
Michael Hipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It isn't open to interpretation. We just hamper it with our limited
understanding, lack of faith, injection of human agendas, and reliance
on what others say it says rather than on what it really says. Just to
name a few of the enemie's tricks.
___
Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
--
~~
Lonni J Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux Step-by-step TyGeMohttp://netllama.ipfox.com
___
Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
___
Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
If you don't want to read it, note that the OT and TID tags have not gone away and just delete the messages. On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:33:03 -0600 Andrew Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff,I'd go to church. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
General List? What's that? Hasn't that been dead for a long time? :) On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Net Llama! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone really wants to continue this, subscribe to the General list: http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/ ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Matthew Carpenter wrote: General List? What's that? Hasn't that been dead for a long time? :) No more so than this list, when all that appears is alot of religious rambling. As someone else said, if i want to listen to people preach, i'll go to a house of worship. The name of this list is not, and never has been, religious-users. On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Net Llama! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone really wants to continue this, subscribe to the General list: http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/ ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. -- ~~ Lonni J Friedman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Step-by-step TyGeMo http://netllama.ipfox.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Sunday 23 June 2002 10:21 pm, Ted Ozolins wrote: I have yet to find anywhere in the bible that says thou shalt give xx% of your yearly earnings to GOD JMHO A couple of quick references ... Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. ... Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. The answers are in there. (And they're no harder to find than Linux documentation :-) Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
This, along with the efforts to erradicate religeon from the world, is probably why so many are willing to off themselves. Oops. I forgot. I'm already over my quota for participating in controversial conversation for the month. My bad. On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:03:35 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think all religions are simply tools to control the ignorant. Certainly, religous belief provides sentient creatures with a rationale to continue their existence. Joel ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I must admit that back in the 16th century the Catholic church was pretty opportunistic with it's power... This turned the Dark Ages darker. It certainly didn't give God a good name, especially in recent years... almost like in the 70's, Amway distributors went door-to-door in the US and were really not good representatives of Amway, which gave Amway a bad name. On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:21:11 -0700 Ted Ozolins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really do not believe that its the religion that tends to rule the people. If anything, religion lends a sense of balance. However, the church on the other hand uses religion to control the people so as to ensure a supply of steadily flowing cash. I have yet to find anywhere in the bible that saysthou shalt give xx% of your yearly earnings to GOD ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Monday 24 June 2002 09:18 am, Matthew Carpenter wrote: I must admit that back in the 16th century the Catholic church was pretty opportunistic with it's power... This turned the Dark Ages darker. It certainly didn't give God a good name, especially in recent years... almost like in the 70's, Amway distributors went door-to-door in the US and were really not good representatives of Amway, which gave Amway a bad name. Yes. And it's an apt comparision. Little of what makes news under the banner of Christianity can be justified under the Scripture. Just like those distributors broke the Business Rules Code of Conduct. (IIRC). I could introduce you to scores of people who lead lives that would be the envy of 99.999% of the world and they credit it all to Jesus Christ. And I know several who make a good living marketing Amway's excellent (if a bit expensive :-) products. Lots of people will never give Linux a look because it's seeming connection to the juvenile delinquents such as over at slashdot. It's the same thing. But don't try to explain any of that to someone who has decided Religion is just bad and that Amway is a scam/cult/pyramid. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I don't think all religions are simply tools to control the ignorant. Certainly, religous belief provides sentient creatures with a rationale to continue their existence. Joel I think. Therefore I am! - famous French philosopher, devisor of analytical geometry, and developer of the scientific method. Lee ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On June 24, 2002 07:37 am, Michael Hipp wrote: SNIP But don't try to explain any of that to someone who has decided Religion is just bad and that Amway is a scam/cult/pyramid. Michael Quite true. Its unfortunate that the messengers have twisted the message to suit their greed. Having said that, I too have exceeded my quota of controversial comments. -- Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B. C. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
There is none so blind as he who will not see (I'd like to teach the world to sing). A couple years ago, this was akin to trying to explain to a West-Michigan business that Linux was the way to go. They had made up their mind, probably from some Windows magazine, that it was a fad which would pass. Unfortunately for them, fad or not, the economics and freedoms just make sense. But that would be off the topic. On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:37:35 -0500 Michael Hipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But don't try to explain any of that to someone who has decided Religion is just bad and that Amway is a scam/cult/pyramid. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Monday 24 June 2002 10:50 am, Matthew Carpenter wrote: The Scientific-Method is an important guideline, but through logical analysis is reduced to a good method to approach learning, not the answers to all questions. To think otherwise would be ludicrous since it one would have to then assume that all that can be known is observable in a measureable fashion. The very existence of a Living God, who chose NOT to be manipulated would disruptall attempts at measurement for may things. This is why there are still Wonders Of The World. While we attempt to sweep any religeous possibilities under the carpet, we end up doing a great deal of damage to the world, both for those who do not believe in a supreme being as well as those who do. Well said. In fact, that's a pretty good synopsis of the Sunday School lesson I taught to the adult class 4 weeks entitled: False Gods of the 21st Century - Science. The nrxt week was: False Gods of the 21st Century - Democracy. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
RE: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I have yet to find anywhere in the bible that says thou shalt give xx% of your yearly earnings to GOD JMHO A couple of quick references ... Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. ... Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. The answers are in there. (And they're no harder to find than Linux documentation :-) But *so* open to interpretation. When asked about taxes Jesus is quoted as saying, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's. This tells me that money goes to the government and faith goes to God. Doesn't sound like tithing to me. But of course, for the Jewish faith this bible passage doesn't count. In Harmony's Way, and In A Chord, Tom :-}) Thomas A. Condon Barbershop Bass Singer Registered Linux User #154358 ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Monday 24 June 2002 11:38 am, Condon Thomas A KPWA wrote: But *so* open to interpretation. When asked about taxes Jesus is quoted as saying, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's. This tells me that money goes to the government and faith goes to God. Doesn't sound like tithing to me. But of course, for the Jewish faith this bible passage doesn't count. Actually not. There is nothing whatsoever in that quote to indicate that Jesus was repealing the command to tithe. The question was about the lawfulness of paying taxes to Caesar. He answered yes as do later NT passages about obeying government (bummer!). Render unto God, what is God's would be inclusive of tithing (tho that certainly isn't the most important thing). And paying taxes and tithing are in no way mutually exclusive. The OT says that a tenth is God's. Such is a common pitfall. The idea that the Bible is so open to interpretation that it renders it null and void. Many use that as an excuse to ignore it. A pass on everything. Utterly wrong. And deadly. It isn't open to interpretation. We just hamper it with our limited understanding, lack of faith, injection of human agendas, and reliance on what others say it says rather than on what it really says. Just to name a few of the enemie's tricks. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Matthew Carpenter wrote: You may think, but there are certainly those who am and don't. We are by default are like sheep. It takes concerted effort to turn that gray-matter into a thinking machine, and unfortunately there are not many in this age which will do so. Unfortunately, the current reigning religion in this part of the world has always been numbered with those who prefer not have the common man think. Don't think. Just believe what the shaman, priest, televanglist says is in the book and paradise is yours. Never mind injustice. The bad guys will get theirs in the next world, so just go along with the political corruption, greed, environmental destruction and whatever is necessary to make the payments on the SUV. In the Middle Ages we had the Great Chain of Being. So what if the local noble had raped your daughter on her wedding night and driven off the village herd to pay for a celebration when his son became of age to join the family firm of Robber Baron and Son, Ltd. If you were a serf God had put you on the bottom of the chain just as he had placed the baron on the top. To question your place was to question God. To demand justice was presumption to take into man's hands that which was God's. Later, we had John Calvin, who preached never mind what Christ said about the rich not getting into paradise. The real truth is that God already knows who will be saved and who will not. Therefore it is only logical to believe that God pours his blessings on those predestined few and the mark of God's favor was riches. A real double banger. No thought required and God's blessings on riches swindled from the undestined. That mindless theology of greed still survives today in the heresy of the Protestant Work Ethic. Along with Creationism, which is an attack on all sciences that dare to claim that the universe was created before 4004 BC Aug. 4th at 10:04 am. Couple this with the current efforts by right wing non-christian fundamentalists to stifle stem cell research. So what if a cure for cancer can be found or new organ produced. The pain, suffering and death is acceptable as long as fundamentalist religious beliefs aren't questioned. Then there is the Church's objection to in vitro fertilization because somehow the soul can only be fused with the embryo in a womb not in glass ware. Then let us not forget the Holocaust. At the time, Christianity claimed that the Jews were an accursed race because they had killed Christ. Funny I always thought it was Romans (Italians). But the Pope was Italian so it must have that the entire population of Judah dropped into Jerusalem to demand Christ's death from the innocent Romans. Therefore it was ok to murder a few million decedents on the theory the sons bear the guilt of the fathers. That by the way is called a Bill of Attainer and is outlawed by the U.S. Constitution. A case where man appears to be more just than the God he prays to. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Reading Will Durant's big multivolume history, he spends a lot of time (about two volumes) on the Age of Voltaire and Rousseau and Revolution. There was no shortage of French intellectuals who distained religion, and worked hard to undermine it and make humanism (whatever that is) the center of intellectual life. In the end, they got the French Revolution AND religion. Not much of an improvement. The bottom line was, and remains, logic and freedom of thought alone just don't provide most people with enough reason to live and propagate. So, as he aptly summed up, we die at the top but breed from the bottom. Basic Darwinism explains how religion has survived despite centuries of attempts by educated people to eradicate it. The educated elites always die out, from lack of hope if nothing else. Joel On Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:34:22AM -0500, Michael Hipp wrote: On Monday 24 June 2002 10:50 am, Matthew Carpenter wrote: The Scientific-Method is an important guideline, but through logical analysis is reduced to a good method to approach learning, not the answers to all questions. To think otherwise would be ludicrous since it one would have to then assume that all that can be known is observable in a measureable fashion. The very existence of a Living God, who chose NOT to be manipulated would disruptall attempts at measurement for may things. This is why there are still Wonders Of The World. While we attempt to sweep any religeous possibilities under the carpet, we end up doing a great deal of damage to the world, both for those who do not believe in a supreme being as well as those who do. Well said. In fact, that's a pretty good synopsis of the Sunday School lesson I taught to the adult class 4 weeks entitled: False Gods of the 21st Century - Science. The nrxt week was: False Gods of the 21st Century - Democracy. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
People often point to the Holocaust as a way to criticize Christians. In the case of the Holocaust, religion WASN'T the motive. The point was to get rid of the Jews, who had much money and power in the European world circa 1930. Hitler was afraid of the Jews because of their power. I don't recall anything in Mein Kampf about religion and the Jews. It was just power. Hitler and Himmler also can not be confused with Christians. I do not believe Hitler had any Christian pretensions. Himmler himself had plans to eliminate Christianity and replace it with a pagan religion based on loyalty to the Clan (Volk, I think he called it), with the whole idea that the Clan was the important entity and individuals were just manifestations of it. Sounds sorta Oriental but it was a primitive we/they type of religion, based on genetic similarity and shared values. Does this sound like any prominent religion in the Middle East today? Joel Then let us not forget the Holocaust. At the time, Christianity claimed that the Jews were an accursed race because they had killed Christ. Funny I always thought it was Romans (Italians). But the Pope was Italian so it must have that the entire population of Judah dropped into Jerusalem to demand Christ's death from the innocent Romans. Therefore it was ok to murder a few million decedents on the theory the sons bear the guilt of the fathers. That by the way is called a Bill of Attainer and is outlawed by the U.S. Constitution. A case where man appears to be more just than the God he prays to. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Joel Hammer wrote: People often point to the Holocaust as a way to criticize Christians. In the case of the Holocaust, religion WASN'T the motive. The point was to get rid of the Jews, who had much money and power in the European world circa 1930. Hitler was afraid of the Jews because of their power. I don't recall anything in Mein Kampf about religion and the Jews. It was just power. Hitler and Himmler also can not be confused with Christians. I do not believe Hitler had any Christian pretensions. Himmler himself had plans to eliminate Christianity and replace it with a pagan religion based on loyalty to the Clan (Volk, I think he called it), with the whole idea that the Clan was the important entity and individuals were just manifestations of it. Sounds sorta Oriental but it was a primitive we/they type of religion, based on genetic similarity and shared values. Does this sound like any prominent religion in the Middle East today? Joel An important note that is not discussed by the borne again fundalmetalists is that anti-semenism had it's roots in Christianity in the Dark Ages and was even in the teachings of Church. The jews were an accursed race because they had killed Christ. The fact that only about twenty of them had anything to do with it didn't bother the Church Fathers. They, like today's super Christians, believe in the Old Testiment idea of justice by punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty. If twenty Jews clammered for Christ's death then they were all guilty even the ones who shouted for Christ to be freed. And if they were guilty then all their offspring are guilty. If they were guilty of that then they were guilty of anything. Hitler even asked is there any foulness that the Jew in not associated with? Hitler's anti-sementism was just an offshoot of the Christian anti-semenism of the middle ages. If it was purely he wouldn't have bothered with poor Jewish push cart operators w! ho, if the was a conspiracy of bankers , were obviously not part of it Interestingly enough, at the meeting of top leaders of the Reich that approved the Final Solution one voice was raised against it. From a judge who claimed that the jews should be removed from all parts of German life because, they had killed Christ but that German law (even under the Nazis) forbid the outright slaughter of the Jews. Even in America we did nothing. anti-Semitism was very popular here and it was most often preached from the pulpits of Christians. Also the claim that man needs a God to have a reason for living and propagating. My cats do that and I doubt they have a God. Mark Twain doesn't seem to have done too badly without the central God. As for the intellectuals of the French Enlightenment few of them were outright atheists. Most of them were Deists who believed in God and Christ and that man was not by nature evil. They also believed that God did not interfere in this world, but left it to the good human nature to provided justice and happiness for our species. Deism was swept away by the backwoods stump preachers of the Great Awaking in the 1760s and 70s. The decedents of those stump preachers evolved into today's abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctor assassins. Lee ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:45:12 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reading Will Durant's big multivolume history, [ lots snipped ] The nrxt week was: False Gods of the 21st Century - Democracy. Yawn! -- Collins Richey - Denver Area - WWTLRD? gentoo(since 01/01/01) 2.4.18+(ext3) xfce-sylpheed-mozilla ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff, I'd go to church. Mike ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Ahmen to that. Mike Chambers wrote: Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff, I'd go to church. -- ~ L. Friedman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Step-by-step TyGeMo:http://netllama.ipfox.com 7:45pm up 67 days, 2:33, 2 users, load average: 0.04, 0.12, 0.18 ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I pay homage to Trimuph the Wonder Dog. the one true supreme being On Monday 24 June 2002 11:34 am, Michael Hipp wrote: On Monday 24 June 2002 10:50 am, Matthew Carpenter wrote: The Scientific-Method is an important guideline, but through logical analysis is reduced to a good method to approach learning, not the answers to all questions. To think otherwise would be ludicrous since it one would have to then assume that all that can be known is observable in a measureable fashion. The very existence of a Living God, who chose NOT to be manipulated would disruptall attempts at measurement for may things. This is why there are still Wonders Of The World. While we attempt to sweep any religeous possibilities under the carpet, we end up doing a great deal of damage to the world, both for those who do not believe in a supreme being as well as those who do. Well said. In fact, that's a pretty good synopsis of the Sunday School lesson I taught to the adult class 4 weeks entitled: False Gods of the 21st Century - Science. The nrxt week was: False Gods of the 21st Century - Democracy. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
I like the 9:30 am service better, easier to stay awake. Saved?? - probably not... -jhb- From: Ronnie Gauthier [EMAIL PROTECTED] you mean you dont attend 8am mass each morning?!? how ever do you expect to be saved? On Monday 24 June 2002 09:42 pm, Mike Chambers wrote: Enough of the religious shit already, if I wanted to hear bout that stuff, I'd go to church. Mike ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Lee wrote: Ronnie Gauthier wrote: snip This marked start of religion's declaration of war on rational thought and science. I thought this happened with the first decision to rule people through fear of a/some diety(ies)? Bob -- A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well, than a fool can see from a mountain top. Unknown ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Bob Hems wrote: Lee wrote: Ronnie Gauthier wrote: snip This marked start of religion's declaration of war on rational thought and science. I thought this happened with the first decision to rule people through fear of a/some diety(ies)? Bob -- Not really. Most ancient religions either co-existed with science and rational thought or encouraged it. Rational thought and science meant greater productivity, more offerings for the Gods to be consumed by the priests (i. e. Jerry Falwell types) and bigger better built temples.In ancient Greece philosophy was as highly praised as religion. Athena was even the Goddess of Science and knowledge. Ancient Rome was an engineering empire. It took Christianity with it's loathing of humanity as potential rivals to God that religious bigotry really got established. Along with the burning of the Monk Bruno we have the burning of over two hundred thousand witches. Even Notrodamus was in fear for his life from the church because too high a percentage of those he treated were being cured of the plague which everybody knew was God's punishment on humanity for our sins. A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well, than a fool can see from a mountain top. Unknown ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
-- got established. Along with the burning of the Monk Bruno we have the burning of over two hundred thousand witches. Even Notrodamus was The situation is not quite so clear cut. In Catholic Spain, when witch trials were all the rage in most of Europe, the Spanish Inquisition was brought to investigate reports of witches in Spain. Their conclusion, The vaporings of old women. There were no witch trials in Spain, that I know of. Now, before you get all teary eyed about the Spanish Inquisition, I am would offer that since these old women had no money or friends (senile old women with cataracts and all) the S.I. did not see any way to extort money from them. So, why bother? Joel ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT TID Re: Noteworthy News Item
Ronnie Gauthier wrote: snip This marked start of religion's declaration of war on rational thought and science. I thought this happened with the first decision to rule people through fear of a/some diety(ies)? I don't think all religions are simply tools to control the ignorant. Certainly, religous belief provides sentient creatures with a rationale to continue their existence. Joel ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
