Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
The silicone is not the issue. The point Yuri has been making possibly was the simple old principle that applies to any sealed cavity: somehow water will get in, possibly quite slowly, and it may take a long time. But once it is in there, it will start accumulating at the bottom, and there is no effective way out. Two very common ways for water to get into hermetically sealed cavities are condensation of air humidity on the inside walls of the cavity, and breathing of the cavity due to temperature and pressure changes. And either means that the water just gets more and more over time... It just happens sometimes, in spite of best materials and workmanship. Periodic inspections can make it worse, as there always is a risk of damaging a seal. There are ways around it: * Drain holes at the bottom (but if the pipe is buried in the ground keep in mind that the holes may turn into artesian wells when the rain saturates the soil). * Ventilation / airflow - this is good for removing moisture, even if sometimes a little bit of water gets in. Obvious drawback: dust and bugs can get in, unless the intakes are filtered; but in that case you need to replace filters periodically. Passive ventilation is fairly easy to implement and has good long-term reliability. However, if the pipe is long and thin and filled with cables it may not be sufficient to remove all humidity. * An automatic pump to remove any water once detected. Disadvantage: long-term reliability may be questionable. YMMV... Kind regards, Helmut. On 22/01/14 10:24, Volker Kuhlmann wrote: On Wed 22 Jan 2014 00:27:22 NZDT +1300, yuri wrote: Since changing career from sparky to telco tech, I've learned a few things. One of them is that all outdoor conduit will eventually fill up with water, no matter how good you think you've waterproofed it. I find it hard to believe that a good layer of silicone sealant will last for less than 10 years. If you just stick the pipe pieces together, sure, and I wouldn't assume that PVC pipe glue is watertight unless there is assurance that all surfaces have been covered fully and are resting wihtout gap against each other while the glue sets. Outdoor rated grease-filled cat6 is a must if you're looking for a long-term solution. Maybe some single-mode and multi-mode fibre if you *really* want to future-proof. My really future proof solution fit for long term is to keep the pipes accessible. Volker ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On 22 January 2014 08:48, C. Falconer wrote: So why bother with the conduit / pipe then? Those outdoor cables are rated for direct bury, The conduit is for extra protection and to allow future cables to be pulled in. Copper is fine in the forseeable future for home. And multimode is history, nobody installs that anymore unless its an existing deployment. Everything new going in is single-mode. If you acquire media converters second hand (perhaps free decommissioned kit) then you might find it's made for multi-mode. If you plan to only buy new kit then single-mode is all you need. On 22 January 2014 10:24, Volker Kuhlmann wrote: I find it hard to believe that a good layer of silicone sealant will last for less than 10 years. If you just stick the pipe pieces together, sure, and I wouldn't assume that PVC pipe glue is watertight unless there is assurance that all surfaces have been covered fully and are resting wihtout gap against each other while the glue sets. In theory, yes. In practice I've *always* found water in the pipes. Also, pipes can crack if, say, the ground moves violently. That wouldn't happen in Christchurch though, would it? :-) Yuri ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On 22 January 2014 23:31, yuri yur...@gmail.com wrote: Also, pipes can crack if, say, the ground moves violently. That wouldn't happen in Christchurch though, would it? :-) I'd imagine heavy frosting can cause the density of soil to change sufficiently to cause damage. Though that'd be more a problem in russia I'd imagine. For some reason I thought Have the pipe terminate above a draining point somewhere on a gentle slope, so you cap the ends when not maintaining things to keep bugs and dirt out, but you can still uncap for cabling and to drain water when it becomes a problem. A low tech approach if you don't mind occasional manual intervention. -- Kent ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Robert Fisher wrote, On 23/01/14 06:55: While all points made in this thread are valid, I think that the reality is that if the cables are laid in conduit or pipe which will allow replacement cables to be drawn through if needed later it will probably last for a long time and be cost effective. Agreed - if internal cabling lasted 10 years so far just cable tied to a fence railing then the same cable in a pipe should last double that. Now to get EQC and Tower to make dates and stick to them. Did I ever say Tower Insurance is a pack of bastards? -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Now to get EQC and Tower to make dates and stick to them. Did I ever say Tower Insurance is a pack of bastards? -- CF Aren't they all related? Just like political parties - left wing, right wing - its all the same bird. DISCLAIMER: If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by reply email, facsimile or collect telephone call to +64 3 9641200 and destroy the original. Please refer to full DISCLAIMER at http://www.hrnz.co.nz/eDisclaimer ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On 23/01/14 14:05, Bryce Stenberg wrote: Now to get EQC and Tower to make dates and stick to them. Did I ever say Tower Insurance is a pack of bastards? -- CF Aren't they all related? Just like political parties - left wing, right wing - its all the same bird. Ain't that the truth ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On 21 January 2014 10:02, Robert Fisher wrote: Standard cables will be fine if run in conduit. Sorry, no. Since changing career from sparky to telco tech, I've learned a few things. One of them is that all outdoor conduit will eventually fill up with water, no matter how good you think you've waterproofed it. Outdoor rated grease-filled cat6 is a must if you're looking for a long-term solution. Maybe some single-mode and multi-mode fibre if you *really* want to future-proof. Yuri ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
yuri wrote, On 22/01/14 00:27: On 21 January 2014 10:02, Robert Fisher wrote: Standard cables will be fine if run in conduit. Sorry, no. Since changing career from sparky to telco tech, I've learned a few things. One of them is that all outdoor conduit will eventually fill up with water, no matter how good you think you've waterproofed it. Outdoor rated grease-filled cat6 is a must if you're looking for a long-term solution. So why bother with the conduit / pipe then? Those outdoor cables are rated for direct bury, Maybe some single-mode and multi-mode fibre if you *really* want to future-proof. Copper is fine in the forseeable future for home. And multimode is history, nobody installs that anymore unless its an existing deployment. Everything new going in is single-mode. -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On Wed 22 Jan 2014 00:27:22 NZDT +1300, yuri wrote: Since changing career from sparky to telco tech, I've learned a few things. One of them is that all outdoor conduit will eventually fill up with water, no matter how good you think you've waterproofed it. I find it hard to believe that a good layer of silicone sealant will last for less than 10 years. If you just stick the pipe pieces together, sure, and I wouldn't assume that PVC pipe glue is watertight unless there is assurance that all surfaces have been covered fully and are resting wihtout gap against each other while the glue sets. Outdoor rated grease-filled cat6 is a must if you're looking for a long-term solution. Maybe some single-mode and multi-mode fibre if you *really* want to future-proof. My really future proof solution fit for long term is to keep the pipes accessible. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann http://volker.top.geek.nz/ Please do not CC list postings to me. ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Standard cables will be fine if run in conduit. Use the largest size you can afford and definitely large radius bends (not elbows) and run a drw wire so you can pull more in later if needed. Rob On 21 January 2014 09:50, C. Falconer cfalco...@totalteam.co.nz wrote: I have a detatched garage, which is where my server and mythbox reside. At the moment, I have a bunch of cat5 cables running around the edge of the property to the garage. Currently tied to the underneath of a fence rail, so off the ground. They're also a bit manked up due to earthquakes and bricks, and the dog's masticatory antics. So I want to properly wire some ties to the garage - I use two for ethernet data and three for analogue feeds, so 8-10 runs seems like good future-proofing. I'm thinking some lengths of 40mm PVC drainpipe buried, with a large radius elbow at each end. We're due a new driveway and a new garage according to the poxy insurance company, so putting this underneath beforehand makes a lot of sense. Any comments? Do I need to go outdoor rated gel-cables ? Or regular cables should be OK (which is what's in use now.) Wireless is not a solution, see previous post :) -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Robert Fisher ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Per Rob's comment, bigger pipe. 40mm with 10 cat 5 runs will be very difficult to get any more cable into later on if you want to. And the cars wire/rope should be tough so it doesn't snap the first time you use it! Coordinate the pipe install with the folks doing the slab for the garage, other wise they might just cut it off at ground level while you're at work!!! Cheers, Chris Original message From: Robert Fisher rob...@fisher.net.nz Date: 21/01/2014 10:02 (GMT+12:00) To: Canterbury Linux Users Group linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz Subject: Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring Standard cables will be fine if run in conduit. Use the largest size you can afford and definitely large radius bends (not elbows) and run a drw wire so you can pull more in later if needed. Rob On 21 January 2014 09:50, C. Falconer cfalco...@totalteam.co.nz wrote: I have a detatched garage, which is where my server and mythbox reside. At the moment, I have a bunch of cat5 cables running around the edge of the property to the garage. Currently tied to the underneath of a fence rail, so off the ground. They're also a bit manked up due to earthquakes and bricks, and the dog's masticatory antics. So I want to properly wire some ties to the garage - I use two for ethernet data and three for analogue feeds, so 8-10 runs seems like good future-proofing. I'm thinking some lengths of 40mm PVC drainpipe buried, with a large radius elbow at each end. We're due a new driveway and a new garage according to the poxy insurance company, so putting this underneath beforehand makes a lot of sense. Any comments? Do I need to go outdoor rated gel-cables ? Or regular cables should be OK (which is what's in use now.) Wireless is not a solution, see previous post :) -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Robert Fisher ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On Tue 21 Jan 2014 09:50:37 NZDT +1300, C. Falconer wrote: I'm thinking some lengths of 40mm PVC drainpipe buried, with a large radius elbow at each end. Large radius is a must. 40mm for 10 CAT6 cables? No way! You wouldn't put in anything less than CAT6. Consider adding one CAT6 shielded patch cable, to have a comparison option when you suspect interference. Or use shielded solid core. CAT6 is thicker than CAT5e, especially when shielded. Unfortunately I don't think being able to pull in more cables later will work too well. In practice, the cables in the pipe won't keep their relative positions, tangling around each other and clogging the pipe. Normal cables should be fine, especially if you use (neutral cure!) silicone sealant around the outside of the joints, so you can remove it when needed. I would put the pipe where it remains accessible if at all possible. You never know, so why make it difficult unnecessarily? Enter garage above ground and above the slab. Independence is gold. By all means put a pipe through the slab as well, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on it early on. If it's only data you don't need to go deep - 10cm will do, unless you expect to drive/roll heavy vehicles over it, then you need to consider the crush forces on the pipe. Some pavers will help. Do you really need 10 CATx cables to your garage? Sounds crazy. Put a dumb switch in the garage instead. Analog connections? Are you sure? That's asking for a lot of noise on that length of cable. Digitize in garage, buy yourself an RPi (or whatever), connect to switch. Can you really make a good case for more than 3 CAT6 to the garage??? Ack about wireless. Crazy stuff. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann http://volker.top.geek.nz/ Please do not CC list postings to me. ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
When I built a new garage with my office at the end of it 10yrs ago I put 3xØ25mm conduit in for power, coax (I still use thinnet here) and a few Cat5 cables for telephone and future 100BaseT. Made the bends too tight and I had an underground 45deg change of direction. Pulling the cables was difficult. Wished I'd used 40 or 50mm I used ordinary Cat5 and RG58A/U coax and haven't noticed any problems. That said, I haven't checked if water has leaked into the conduits. Per Rob's comment, bigger pipe. 40mm with 10 cat 5 runs will be very difficult to get any more cable into later on if you want to. And the cars wire/rope should be tough so it doesn't snap the first time you use it! I agree to use the largest conduit diameter affordable. I'd use as few sweep bends or large radius handformed bends (suggest to use internal springs when making them) as possible. Straight line the underground portion if possible. Coordinate the pipe install with the folks doing the slab for the garage, other wise they might just cut it off at ground level while you're at work!!! Definitely co-ordinate with electrician and contractors. Comms will be in separate conduit to power but they can go in the same trench. When the builders boxed the new slab for my garage they moved my conduits so they were well outside the wall. That night, I put the conduits back to where I laid them so they went up through the slab the inside the wall and taped the ends so they didn't get filled with concrete. Good luck Neil Standard cables will be fine if run in conduit. Use the largest size you can afford and definitely large radius bends (not elbows) and run a drw wire so you can pull more in later if needed. Rob ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On Tue, 21 Jan 2014, C. Falconer wrote: stuff about cable to garage. I asked a professional cable installer about this. He said that if it was a small run and you were doing it yourself cockies water trough alkathene pipe was fine. He said that you definitely needed to use gel filled cable. It was likely over time for your conduit to become water logged and it was inevitable your cable would be damaged by small nicks during installation. Gel would prevent any moisture entering these small nicks from travelling along inside the outer sheath of the cable to a weak spot. Cheers Ross Drummond ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Volker Kuhlmann wrote, On 21/01/14 11:12: Normal cables should be fine, especially if you use (neutral cure!) silicone sealant around the outside of the joints, so you can remove it when needed. yup - good point. I would put the pipe where it remains accessible if at all possible. You never know, so why make it difficult unnecessarily? Enter garage above ground and above the slab. Independence is gold. By all means put a pipe through the slab as well, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on it early on. The plan is down from patch panel in house, below ring foundation, then rise up at the nearest corner of garage and conduit across to back corner. That way its a straight run and the shortest path. My current path around the fence adds about 24 metres per run. If it's only data you don't need to go deep - 10cm will do There's power for the cameras too, but that's not enough to make a difference Do you really need 10 CATx cables to your garage? Sounds crazy. Put a dumb switch in the garage instead. Analog connections? Are you sure? That's asking for a lot of noise on that length of cable. Digitize in garage, buy yourself an RPi (or whatever), connect to switch. Can you really make a good case for more than 3 CAT6 to the garage??? Yes - one or two for data, the rest are currently used for analogue video back to a security recorder. Theres no noticeable problems due to the current length, and they all run together at this time. The machine with the grabber card is not quiet, so its not going in the house. Plus, not needing to run a switch in the garage for two machines simplifies the network. Thanks all for the input - I've now got some digging to do :) -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Another way to save on cable (and money if the lengths are long) is to use Y connectors at each end. Data in Ethernet cable only users 4 of the 8 conductors so you can halve the amount of cable you use. Robert Fisher On 21 Jan 2014 13:56, C. Falconer cfalco...@totalteam.co.nz wrote: Volker Kuhlmann wrote, On 21/01/14 11:12: Normal cables should be fine, especially if you use (neutral cure!) silicone sealant around the outside of the joints, so you can remove it when needed. yup - good point. I would put the pipe where it remains accessible if at all possible. You never know, so why make it difficult unnecessarily? Enter garage above ground and above the slab. Independence is gold. By all means put a pipe through the slab as well, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on it early on. The plan is down from patch panel in house, below ring foundation, then rise up at the nearest corner of garage and conduit across to back corner. That way its a straight run and the shortest path. My current path around the fence adds about 24 metres per run. If it's only data you don't need to go deep - 10cm will do There's power for the cameras too, but that's not enough to make a difference Do you really need 10 CATx cables to your garage? Sounds crazy. Put a dumb switch in the garage instead. Analog connections? Are you sure? That's asking for a lot of noise on that length of cable. Digitize in garage, buy yourself an RPi (or whatever), connect to switch. Can you really make a good case for more than 3 CAT6 to the garage??? Yes - one or two for data, the rest are currently used for analogue video back to a security recorder. Theres no noticeable problems due to the current length, and they all run together at this time. The machine with the grabber card is not quiet, so its not going in the house. Plus, not needing to run a switch in the garage for two machines simplifies the network. Thanks all for the input - I've now got some digging to do :) -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
On Tue 21 Jan 2014 15:19:06 NZDT +1300, Robert Fisher wrote: Another way to save on cable (and money if the lengths are long) is to use Y connectors at each end. Data in Ethernet cable only users 4 of the 8 conductors so you can halve the amount of cable you use. Only for 100M Ethernet. Gigabit Ethernet uses all 8 conductors. Of course 100M may be sufficient for your needs. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann http://volker.top.geek.nz/ Please do not CC list postings to me. ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: [Linux-users] House / Garage ethernet wiring
Robert Fisher wrote, On 21/01/14 15:19: Another way to save on cable (and money if the lengths are long) is to use Y connectors at each end. Data in Ethernet cable only users 4 of the 8 conductors so you can halve the amount of cable you use. Never ever use those things... they work but only as a very last resort. Plus I can't put video down them so it would save exactly one run. And they're limited to 100 Mbit, plus they won't carry POE. The only time I use those is if there's a short-term requirement for a low speed port, temporarily. If its permanent, install more ports. -- CF ___ Linux-users mailing list Linux-users@lists.canterbury.ac.nz http://lists.canterbury.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
