Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
Hi all, Michael - I'm not exactly sure which message in particular you are replying to, but I have a few comments on this statement you made: On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney wrote: And yet again...on the topic of screen readers, nobody has once mentioned the possibility that perhaps we as web developers a pretty darn good job, and that maybe it is the screen reader manufacturers that need the 'kick in the balls' Perhaps we are doing a pretty darn good job. Sadly though, we are not in the majority. And therein lies the difficulty. When we talk about we doing a pretty darn good job, we're talking about - what - maybe 5% of web professionals worldwide? More, less? I'm not sure but we're not in the majority as far as I can tell. Further - you have written about screen reader manufacturers. What, exactly are the issues that you feel you need to kick them in the balls about? Frances - you said: I think that poor screen reader software is a very *big* issue that is generally overlooked since we do not use them. If we're going to do anything, then we'd better be able to say somethign more substantial that poor screen reader software - we need to be able to back it up. (That sounded like I was singling you out, Frances - but far from it... You just happened to comment) This is one thing we're attempting to address with the Assistive Technology Initiative of the Web Standards Project's Accessibility Task Force [1]. Through this initiative we are talking with screen reader manufacturers and other Assistive Technology vendors. They are engaging with us to work together. (Note that we're working with any vendors that want - for profit, open source, whatever) (For those of you that don't know, I'm a WaSP member and Lead of the WaSP Accessibility Task Force) So if I may make a few suggestions: 1. Let us not kick anyone in the balls. We're part of the same team here. Lets keep this constructive. Michael - what exactly is it about screen readers that is bugging you? Frances - what is it about them that is poor? Anyone else? 2. Are there issues that you want to have us address in our discussions with them? Or are there things you want clarified? 3. Take these items and email them to me for now - I'm going to figure out some other mechanism (perhaps on the WaSP site) to collect these ideas and feedback from you and we'll pull them all together. For now - email to me is fine (he says with much trepidation!) Cheers, Derek. [1] http://webstandards.org/action/atf/open-invitation-to-assistive- technology-vendors/ -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Michael Yeaney wrote: What frustrates me most about screen reader software for the web is the fact that the only way for them to get information from a document is to flatten and remove ~2/3's (CSS and script) of the factors that (possibly) are contributing to the presentation as a whole (be it audio/visual/etc.) I'd like to respond to this one a little bit later... on to the rest: 1) The isn't any other way to develop the software for the desktop (you can't change the layout, there are no style sheets to remove, etc.) There may not be the ability to change the layout, but there are layout considerations when developing desktop software. If you are building a desktop application and drag and drop form fields (a convenient example, I'll admit) their tab order is in the order in which they were dragged on to the form or stage or whatever-the-thing-is-called-in-your-situation. So, what do we do? We make the layout more linear using the tabIndex property. The linear, logical order is the equivalent to layout - it mimics to a certain extent the logical visual layout that is apparent on through visual grouping, proximity and similarity of style. 2) From a 'semantic structure' point of view (if there is such a thing for desktop software), these type s of applications are a mess - windows nested within windows ad nauseum (OS windows mind you). I'm not following what you mean here (seriously!) - are you saying that semantic structure doesn't exist in desktop applications? I'm not sure how that applies here... Can you clarify? 3) The are specific API's designed to help convey information to accessibility clients from the software (Microsoft's Active Accessibility API comes to mind). Indeed. Windows based screen readers tie directly into the MSA API. VoiceOver on OSX ties in directly to the OSX Accessibility API, and other *nix based screen readers are trying to do the same... So, in a nutshell, I guess what I'm miffed about is that world of the web has no matching counterpart, be it in script, tag attributes, or otherwise, to help accessibility clients discover and convey information about a site.. Seems like a very big gap, IMO. I don't think the gap is as big as you think it might, to be honest. Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers
On 11/2/06, Frances Berriman wrote: I just meant mostly that the software - in my limited experience personally using it - seems difficult to use. Hi Frances - no worries... Yes, I would expect it to be difficult for you to use. Guess what? (Forgive the generalizations about to be written) It is generally difficult for new screen reader users too. They have motivation on their side, though. They get used to it. Sometimes it is all they know, and that is difficult for us to understand because our perceptions of the web are so very different. I'm not saying that screen readers are perfect, but they are an incredibly enabling technology that has evolved over years to find ways to make sense of crappy web sites (you know, the other 95% of sites that aren't founded on web standards and accessibility) I'm hoping to learn more about how users REALLY use them when I attend Steve's live demo later this month! A perfect plan of attack, IMO. I certainly didn't intend to come across as harsh to any party in my response, by the way. I'm as keen as anyone to help in some way to improve people's experiences on the web. I didn't think you did, but wanted to clarify - if there was something that you thought was poor about them, then I wanted to know so that any issues are brought forward, discussed and potentially resolved or clarified. If you do think of anything, please do let me know... I'm all ears! (and eyes) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +1 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress
On 5/9/06, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Safari does indeed seem to be the only current web browser which doesn't generate an onclick event via the keyboard - anything else treats a keyboard activation (e.g. hitting enter when the focus is on a link, for instance) as onclick. Patrick - I just want to clarify this piece of information here. Is there a specific version of Safari that does this, or do you have documented test cases? I've got scripts that respond without fail to the onclick in Safari, so I'd like to try and delve a little deeper. I'm running the latest version of Safari 2.0.3 Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress
On 5/9/06, Jan Brasna wrote: early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a failure to execute onclick with the keyboard. I remember something similar, be it an old Safari or some wacky Netscape, don't really know. I'd say it's not an active issue anymore. Jan - agreed, wholeheartedly. However, if we can pinpoint user agent compliance and/or non-compliance, we can make a much better case for ignoring some of the outdated guidelines. Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
