Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
FWIW, around here designs are looked at by my dept. before hand at which point we talk about ³do-ability² and offer suggestions and compromises so everyone has the same expectations as to what the end product will be. At least that¹s how it¹s _supposed_ to work... ;-) HTH a little... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: I'm mostly wanting to explain/show what can be done using CSS instead of actual images, so their design takes advantage of what CSS has to offer, and doesn't have to use graphic images to create the effect they want to achieve. Dunno if that's any clearer ... grin I know exactly what you mean, but I don't think there's a resource on the net that will help. what you want is PSD's that allow for growth e.g backgrounds that are larger than the space they initially occupy. navigation buttons that allow text to grow so the buttons can expand etc. I think you might get the best benefit from looking at animation tutorials - the old style Disney gel method, where the characters are placed on a background. to me the one thing the GD's don't *get* about CSS is that you don't slice images to fit a grid any more, you arrange images and elements in layers, either side by side or in vertical stacks. I'd try and explain this visually by printing various parts of the design out (switch off layers one by one) and then _show_ the GD's how you build up the page and why they need to think in backgrounds that grow, text that grows and so on. I think once a GD *gets* the layers, they'll find Photoshop very accommodating. but as you say, they hardest part is to get them to think like animators, not grid based print designers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Tony Crockford wrote: Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: I'm mostly wanting to explain/show what can be done using CSS instead of actual images, so their design takes advantage of what CSS has to offer, and doesn't have to use graphic images to create the effect they want to achieve. Dunno if that's any clearer ... grin I know exactly what you mean, but I don't think there's a resource on the net that will help. snip but as you say, they hardest part is to get them to think like animators, not grid based print designers. Another aspect I have found, they have to let go of the concept that the information is on pages, and people will turn to the next page in a linear sequence. Webs not linear. Letting go of the font rendering, allowing the browser to control the font rendering. That the screen is not an page sized object. That is changes size and resolution (72 to 150 dpi) That the print out can look like their printed material if they wish That people don't read web pages like print material -- Gary *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 11/14/06, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spent a day at CSS Zen Garden showing what can be done (and to get some inspiration), the designer went away and produced a couple of illustrator files that got converted into HTML and CSS very easily. +1 for designs coming from Illustrator! Vector things just seem to make so much more sense, it's easier to change fonts everywhere, scale things as required, etc. Seems much more suited to designing for the web, even if you eventually have to go through a conventional raster app to index colours and optimise compression and whatever else. -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: Thanks everyone - good discussion, suggestions and links! I found the link I was planning to post with my last email: http://leftjustified.net/site-in-an-hour/ hth ;o) -- Join me: http://wiki.workalone.co.uk/ Thank me: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/registry/1VK42TQL7VD2F Engage me: http://www.boldfish.co.uk/portfolio/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 14 Nov 2006, at 07:13:48, Paul Novitski wrote: I'm leaning toward the opinion that Photoshop is not a good tool in web design ... Fonts are anti-aliased At one design studio where I worked I went round to all the designers showing them how to turn off Photoshop's font anti-aliasing. They complained that it didn't look as good; I pointed out that that's what it would look like in the browser (at least on Windows without ClearType, which is still pretty much the default), so if they expected me to implement their designs, the original designs had to look as bad as they would in a browser. That helped to jolt them out of their print-centric attitudes and beliefs to some extent. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Hi,-- Susie Gardner-Brown wrote --Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist? There is always something of interest on latest CSS and design issues on www.dontmeetyourheroes.com and www.popurls.com . and of course the toolkit for design and code at www.alvit.de/handbook/ web developers handbook-- Regards,Jim CallenderFreelance Web Developer w. www.jayonline.co.uke. [EMAIL PROTECTED]h. +44 (0) 1273 818 546m. +44 (0) 7888 701 588 ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 14 Nov 2006, at 07:13:48, Paul Novitski wrote: I'm leaning toward the opinion that Photoshop is not a good tool in web design ... Fonts are anti-aliased At one design studio where I worked I went round to all the designers showing them how to turn off Photoshop's font anti-aliasing. They complained that it didn't look as good; I pointed out that that's what it would look like in the browser (at least on Windows without ClearType, which is still pretty much the default), so if they expected me to implement their designs, the original designs had to look as bad as they would in a browser. Do most people have ClearType turned off, though? My team has two designers - my colleague uses Illustrator simply because it's extremely convenient in its system of layers and general object-based attitude. I use PhotoShop for the simple reason that it is pixel-based and as such everything _except_ text can be made to appear identical to my sketches. With vector programs you're dealing with a conceptual world that will have to be completely re-defined for the purposes of appearance. I would say that unless you're using it as a photo editor, PhotoShop is expressly for non-print design. The text problem is immense for any question of typography - you can have your beautiful type design on any application fall apart completely because the colour (typographic sense) ends up lighter - at which point you have to compensate by modifying line-feed, size and colour and generally all your reference from the design suite end up useless. I am infuriated that there is this stupid distinction of none; crisp; smooth and strong. There is a huge gap between 'none' and 'crisp' (crisp generally being very heavily anti-aliased) - why can't we have a slider? _And_ turning anti-aliasing off still leaves PhotoShop with its relatively intelligent kerning systems. To be honest, IE (or even bloody Word until the latest edition) without clear-type is absolutely unbearable with smaller font sizes. If you live and design for that world, expect spaces in the middle of words, characters with no division between them, and all manner of horrors. You may as well ignore typographical issues. How ironic that Arial, supposedly designed for reading off screens, renders worst of all. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 2006/11/14 17:26 (GMT) Barney Carroll apparently typed: Do most people have ClearType turned off, though? The answer to this is the same as that about how many people change their default font size and/or family from the installation default. Those that know nothing about the capability certainly don't have it enabled, since off is inexplicably the new system installation default. -- Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven. Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 11/14/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do most people have ClearType turned off, though? Sadly, I see enough people without it to say that if it isn't on by default, they will never turn it on themselves. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Installing IE7 seems to enable cleartype, or at least something similar to it when viewing pages. -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 5:15 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? On 2006/11/14 17:26 (GMT) Barney Carroll apparently typed: Do most people have ClearType turned off, though? The answer to this is the same as that about how many people change their default font size and/or family from the installation default. Those that know nothing about the capability certainly don't have it enabled, since off is inexplicably the new system installation default. -- Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven. Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Just for another point of view, I intentionally turned off ClearType - for whatever reason, it causes my eyes to strain, almost as if they cannot focus completely. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Title: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? Ill have a look at tht. But theres no way the university would pay to get something done outside when we already have the staff here! Its maybe a matter of control. The GDs are the ones who decide the graphic layout, colours, fonts, heading levels etc. And I dont think they want to relinquish control over how a site is laid out, so I believe they want to create the styles for that. But of course they wont see the big, container level picture, or why you should use this style/div and not that one, if you know what I mean. I can do it I have been doing it for a year or more. But they want/need to know more about CSS so that they can design sites that work well using CSS rather than heavily graphic-based sites ... For example, any navigation they create always consists of graphic rollover images, using non-standard fonts. If we try and encourage them towards list-based CSS navigation, they need to see that even if they give up (in some cases) on specifying fonts, they can produce image-based backgrounds for rollovers. I think its partly about developing a different style of graphic design for the web from the old table-based designs we used to use. - susie On 14/11/06 11:50 AM, Nick Lazar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Were having a GD/programmer meeting tomorrow to try and broaden peoples knowledge, and work out a few guidelines about the rubbery line between the GD and the Programmers CSS responsibility. Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist? A really useful resource, particularly for small companies that may have limited staff numbers, is http://psd2html.com. These guys do a very good job of converting a PSD file to standards compliant CSS/XHTML. I've used them a couple of times, and have been very pleased with the result. Susie, I mention this in response to your query, as it may be worth your while getting a couple of jobs done by these people, and then going through the resulting code, as it will certainly show you what you need to be producing from your PSD files. Hope that helps, Regards, Nick. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
I don't know if you'll find any of these useful: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/designing_for_the_web/ http://www.markboulton.co.uk/index.php/journal/C107/ On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:15:44 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I¹ll have a look at tht. But there¹s no way the university would pay to get something done outside when we already have the staff here! It¹s maybe a matter of Œcontrol¹. The GDs are the ones who decide the graphic layout, colours, fonts, heading levels etc. And I don¹t think they want to relinquish control over how a site is laid out, so I believe they want to create the styles for that. But of course they won¹t see the big, container level picture, or why you should use this style/div and not that one, if you know what I mean. I can do it I have been doing it for a year or more. But they want/need to know more about CSS so that they can design sites that work well using CSS rather than heavily graphic-based sites ... For example, any navigation they create always consists of graphic rollover images, using non-standard fonts. If we try and encourage them towards list-based CSS navigation, they need to see that even if they give up (in some cases) on specifying fonts, they can produce image-based backgrounds for rollovers. I think it¹s partly about developing a different style of graphic design for the web from the old table-based designs we used to use. - susie On 14/11/06 11:50 AM, Nick Lazar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip A really useful resource, particularly for small companies that may have limited staff numbers, is http://psd2html.com. These guys do a very good job of converting a PSD file to standards compliant CSS/XHTML. I've used them a couple of times, and have been very pleased with the result. Susie, I mention this in response to your query, as it may be worth your while getting a couple of jobs done by these people, and then going through the resulting code, as it will certainly show you what you need to be producing from your PSD files. Hope that helps, Regards, Nick. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
On 11/13/06, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're having a GD/programmer meeting tomorrow to try and broaden people's knowledge, and work out a few guidelines about the 'rubbery line' between the GD and the Programmer's CSS responsibility. Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist? If I am taking a design from a graphic designer, I would just want them to give me the layers and I can go about slicing them manually as necessary to build the design with CSS. There's no need to use awkward layout wizards provided by software like Photoshop or ImageReady; those programs are for making graphics, not webpages. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Title: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? I agree with Christian.Do wireframes, then make them pretty,and then cutup the PSD files yourself so that it works on-screen, rather than being dictated to by a pixel-perfect design. That said though, StyleMaster (http://www.westciv.com/style_master/)is a good css editor, but I've never found an 'easy way' for designers to make a photoshop image and then spit out good standards compliant (x)HTML/CSS, particularly good liquid layouts rather than pixel perfect designs. If I'm to be honest, I would say thatmany graphic designersneed to take a step back and design screen prototypes (only) based on wireframes that are developed through a proper information architecture methodologythat are then realised in (X)HTML /CSS by those with good CSS skills. N'est pas? M From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Christian MontoyaSent: Tue 14/11/2006 1:40 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? On 11/13/06, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're having a GD/programmer meeting tomorrow to try and broaden people's knowledge, and work out a few guidelines about the 'rubbery line' between the GD and the Programmer's CSS responsibility. Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist?If I am taking a design from a graphic designer, I would just wantthem to give me the layers and I can go about slicing them manually asnecessary to build the design with CSS. There's no need to use awkward"layout wizards" provided by software like Photoshop or ImageReady;those programs are for making graphics, not webpages.Christian Montoyachristianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Title: CSS resources for Graphic designers? Hi Susie, If I was in QLD I would help out. Im a web designer and having a good knowledge between the programmer and designer From my experience they come from almost different planets. You should write a book, Programmers are from Pluto, Designers from the Mercury. Im always keen to learn more about CSS The Zen Garden was my introduction, but some guidelines would be excellent, especially for designers. If you take notes on your meeting I would be keen to submit a response.. Regards Michael ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Hi Susie: I think I'm in a similar position to you with a website that will be re-designed soon by the print designer. She's great and really knows her stuff and understands the web somewhat (probably more than most traditional designers) and I've been thinking of trying to collect a few urls that might help broaden her (and them) out of the fixed layout bit into new, standards compliant design. I've just collected one at this point, perhaps you're familiar with it, I know a lot of people on this list would be. http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/index.html I plan on pointing out how the background is fixed, the menu bit in the top right (helps keep the regular menu from being so big and I'm always having to fight dropdowns, too, so helps in that). and I'll point out how it shrinks or expands to fit the browser. If this is the sort of thing you're looking for good, maybe you'll get some more urls (i could use them, too). Either I didn't understand or just about everyone else was not on point. ;) cheers Donna Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: Hi there Where I work (Qld Uni) we work in a team to develop websites, which usually consist of an instructional designer, a graphic designer, and a web developer and/or programmer. The graphic designers do the graphic design/layout, and the web developers/programmers do the programming, including CSS. Up till recently our graphic designers have been used to designing for a table layout producing a Photoshop file that we then cut up. They have varying degrees of CSS knowledge, but mostly very little, so they¹re not really aware of what Œgraphic effects¹ can be created using CSS. Lately they¹ve been creating an ImageReady layout file and associated stylesheet, which I find completely unusable!! I always have to start again from scratch. We¹re having a GD/programmer meeting tomorrow to try and broaden people¹s knowledge, and work out a few guidelines about the Œrubbery line¹ between the GD and the Programmer¹s CSS responsibility. Does anyone have any experience here, or can point to any resources that might assist? Cheers susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
If I was in QLD I would help out. I am in QLD so may be able to help you out further if you need it but I think it's hard to deal with generalities. It seems you're saying the code the GDs turn out is not up to standard. But whose standard? Is it yours or does the university have a clear set of guidelines with regards the coding of its sites? If the university has guidelines then I'd think they should be your first point of reference. It's a bit hard to give advice as to where to iron out the bumps when we don't really know who's responsible for doing what. It seems to me like it would be easier to provide evidence to back up the standards-way of doing things for specific examples. For instance, with the point you made about images in navigation menus, we could point to tutorials on accessible image replacement etc. -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Title: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. I don't expect Graphic Designers to produce code. I expect to do that myself (as a web developer) In the past (in table-based layout days), the graphic designer on the team would either provide me with a Photoshop layout file that I would cut up, or would sometimes cut it up themselves. I would then build the site using tables, to make it look exactly like the Photoshop layout file. Since Ive started building sites using CSS as opposed to tables, Ive taken the photoshop layered file, cut it up as necessary, built a stylesheet and placed the graphics (banners, navigation etc) using divs etc. But, (speaking generally) the graphic designers: - are still designing navigation using non-standard fonts etc. - dont necessarily know what can be done with CSS on a design level etc. - When they export a stylesheet to create styles, they use styles that you have to apply to each paragraph. I guess it's something created automatically by something like Imageready. I'm mostly wanting to explain/show what can be done using CSS instead of actual images, so their design takes advantage of what CSS has to offer, and doesn't have to use graphic images to create the effect they want to achieve. Dunno if that's any clearer ... grin - susie ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Russ and David once did a 2-day CSS course in Canberra. It was great, particularly in showing a standards compliant way of how css works and what it can do. Your designers could benefit from such a course. IMHO, it would open their eyes to how things are done in 21st century online world. IMHO, it would also let them know that just as you need a good designer to make things look pretty, you need a good web developer to adapt and turn that design into html/css (not to make it look exactly like the design did). M From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Susie Gardner-Brown Sent: Tue 14/11/2006 3:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? I guess I'm not explaining myself properly. I don't expect Graphic Designers to produce code. I expect to do that myself (as a web developer) In the past (in table-based layout days), the graphic designer on the team would either provide me with a Photoshop layout file that I would cut up, or would sometimes cut it up themselves. I would then build the site using tables, to make it look exactly like the Photoshop layout file. Since I've started building sites using CSS as opposed to tables, I've taken the photoshop layered file, cut it up as necessary, built a stylesheet and placed the graphics (banners, navigation etc) using divs etc. But, (speaking generally) the graphic designers: - are still designing navigation using non-standard fonts etc. - don't necessarily know what can be done with CSS on a design level etc. - When they export a stylesheet to create styles, they use styles that you have to apply to each paragraph. I guess it's something created automatically by something like Imageready. I'm mostly wanting to explain/show what can be done using CSS instead of actual images, so their design takes advantage of what CSS has to offer, and doesn't have to use graphic images to create the effect they want to achieve. Dunno if that's any clearer ... grin - susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Just makes sure they understand that - The page could be infinitely long (so they dont box a set amount of text in using a framework around it, common mistake of print designers) - That they cant overlap images all over the place and stagger content, it has to align. If they follow those two rules then its very rare they will design something that cant be built. If they do then its your job as the web developer / coder / cut up artist to take it back to them and explain why, then they wont do it again. If something is going to be quite hard to build, or have to be built in a stupid way then mention it to them as well and explain why it is not a good idea to do it that way. After a bit of backwards and forwards theyll soon figure out how to produce great designs. If theyre coming from a print background then the hardest thing for them to understand will be the infinite page length (and possibly width, they may design something that relies on the browser being a certain width, so a bit of education might be needed in that department as well) Samuel -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kay Smoljak Sent: Tuesday, 14 November 2006 4:02 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? Hi Susie, On 11/14/06, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the past (in table-based layout days), the graphic designer on the team would either provide me with a Photoshop layout file that I would cut up, or would sometimes cut it up themselves. I would then build the site using tables, to make it look exactly like the Photoshop layout file. I know exactly where you're coming from - I also have worked a lot with comp-only web designers. However, I tend to take a different approach. To me, the designer shouldn't be thinking about what can be done in terms of code etc at all - they should look at a computer screen and imagine the possibilities. As coders, it's our job to turn their picture into reality. When we were doing table layouts last century, there were often things that I used to tell the designers not to do - things that were difficult or just plain not possible. But with CSS layouts and good standards-compliant browsers (don't scoff, even IE6 is far easier to deal with than Netscape 4 ever was) I've never come across something a designer has suggested that couldn't be done - just look at the Zen Garden. These days I tell them to just go for it (I also like a challenge). However, giving designers a better understanding of screen-design issues - colour and contrast, size, dimensions and readability, flexible widths, accessibility etc - is of course a great idea. For that I would encourage them to visit the CSS Zen Garden and some of the CSS gallery/awards sites and get ideas of what works and what doesn't from what other people are doing. Sometimes one tiny idea from a way-out designed for designers blog layout can add a touch of class to a business site. Good luck with it! K. -- Kay Smoljak business: www.cleverstarfish.com standards: kay.zombiecoder.com coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com personal: goatlady.wordpress.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
For that I would encourage them to visit the CSS Zen Garden I'd be wary of recommending the Zen Garden for the fact that a lot of the designs don't represent best practice CSS coding. Yes they're great examples of how you can break boundaries, but you'll also find examples where a lot of the mark-up has simply been set to display: none in favour of a huge graphic that contains all the text. -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
If you look at the Zen garden from a complete design point of view, without any background in coding HTML or CSS, then it will just look like anything is possible on the web. -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Tuesday, 14 November 2006 4:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers? For that I would encourage them to visit the CSS Zen Garden I'd be wary of recommending the Zen Garden for the fact that a lot of the designs don't represent best practice CSS coding. Yes they're great examples of how you can break boundaries, but you'll also find examples where a lot of the mark-up has simply been set to display: none in favour of a huge graphic that contains all the text. -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Thanks everyone - good discussion, suggestions and links! - susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
Susie, Graphic designers making a successful transition to the web need to let go of a lot of the fine control they exercise routinely in print design. Suddenly the page becomes a rubbery thing, resizable by the user and morphable by changing content. A single static image is to a web page as a single frame is to a movie. Too often a graphic designer will create a snapshot and think their job is done, leaving the petty details of implementation to the coder who has to figure out how the page will stretch without breaking and with its look feel intact -- an enormous job that entails a huge amount of graphic design skills. If you can get your designers to provide a half a dozen snapshots of each page exploring variations in font size and content size your own job will be easier and you'll be much less likely to strangle one another down the road. I'm leaning toward the opinion that Photoshop is not a good tool in web design, at least not the way it's used by most. Fonts are anti-aliased, text is static, dimensions are measured in pixels, not ems, and things are often arranged on the page arbitrarily, eyeballed to look right to the designer, without regard to consistency of margins gutters. The result is something that looks like a finished product and sets expectations for HTML CSS to mimic, while in reality it's only an approximation like a good pencil sketch. My ideal graphic designer would be fluent in HTML, using Photoshop to prepare the component images but not to mock up the entire page. Good luck with your meeting, and let us know how it goes. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS resources for Graphic designers?
It is all dependant on how willing your graphic designer is to let go of certain features of their design. (ie font choice on menu items).It works a lot easier if you have website guidelines and/or corporate style guide. (I had four - State Government website guidelines, State Government style guide [print orientated], agency specific website guidelines and separate agency style guide. A couple of years back did a major agency wide redesign, had the choice between two inhouse print graphic designers, one who had built websites a few years early, ie creating table based layouts by cutting up psds and one with no experience in web. Went with the designer with no web experience, because it was easier to teach from scratch than make them relearn everything. They knew the style guides (which fixed most font choices, including menus), in addition they knew from the start, font size had to be relative and page width elastic. Spent a day at CSS Zen Garden showing what can be done (and to get some inspiration), the designer went away and produced a couple of illustrator files that got converted into HTML and CSS very easily. Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
