RE: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
I thought that p Stood for paragraph Gerardo Cháirez -Mensaje original- De: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Barney Carroll Enviado el: Lunes, 18 de Diciembre de 2006 03:50 a.m. Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Asunto: Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?) I somehow got the impression p stood for phrase... (?!) Mariusz Nowak wrote: Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. Regards, Barney Carroll *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
Gerardo Chairez wrote: I thought that p Stood for paragraph It does. And it should be noted that a paragraph can consist of a single word. At least in a dialogue: In dialogue, each speech, even if only one word, is usually a paragraph by itself; that is, a new paragraph begins with each change of speaker. -- The Elements of Style, Fourth Edition, Page 16, 4th Paragraph Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
I somehow got the impression p stood for phrase... (?!) Mariusz Nowak wrote: Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. Regards, Barney Carroll *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
Maybe this is an incorrect philosophy when approaching (X)HTML, but I always look at things in a more meaningful way when approaching semantics. If you were to ask an english major and a w3c specs author to define a paragraph, you'd get to very different answers, wouldn't you? I feel that as a web developer, its my job to marry those two worlds. I take boring (X)HTML documents, add a visual flavor to them in the hopes that both the machine and human can interact with the information painlessly. Examples? Consider the news entry. News entries are viewed in two ways - list format (summaries) and detail format. Each format would require different markup in my opinion. The list view could be coded as: dl dtMy Headline/dt ddDate/dd ddArticle Summary/dd ddLink/dd /dl I would opt to use an individual dl for each entry. Many here would argue this approach for one reason or another. However, a machine can interpret this inforamtion quite well, since it understands the relationships that the dl implies. For the detail view I would: h*My Headline/h* pDate, Category, Author etc/p pArticle with multiple p's and whatever else/p Again, in this format seems to outline the relationship of the informations best in this scenario. For me, when I'm coding pages I always make the unstyled boring document first. If that document looks the way it should naked, I know that I'm headed in the right direction. I don't nest other tags inside dt's or dd'd unless they are inline elements (img, a, span etc). I feel they should be individual units, just like th's and td's though many would argue this as well. The specs are what they are, they're not perfect, nor is the markup they describe. You want to subscribe to their recommended best practices, but the specs need to be looked at subjectively. They were written by people who are striving to create the most generic descriptions they can (while accurately techniquely describing the intentions) of something they didn't create in the first place. It's like the bible, if you're a christian you want to respect the official rules, but you don't want to over analyze the book word for word, as again, it was written by people who may not exactly understand the original intended purpose exactly My two cents, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Barney Carroll wrote: I somehow got the impression p stood for phrase... (?!) Mariusz Nowak wrote: Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. Regards, Barney Carroll *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
RE: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
I thought that p Stood for paragraph Gerardo Cháirez -Mensaje original- De: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Barney Carroll Enviado el: Lunes, 18 de Diciembre de 2006 03:50 a.m. Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Asunto: Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?) I somehow got the impression p stood for phrase... (?!) Mariusz Nowak wrote: Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. Regards, Barney Carroll *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. This message has been scanned by BitDefender and found to be clean. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
Gerardo Chairez wrote: I thought that p Stood for paragraph It does. And it should be noted that a paragraph can consist of a single word. At least in a dialogue: In dialogue, each speech, even if only one word, is usually a paragraph by itself; that is, a new paragraph begins with each change of speaker. -- The Elements of Style, Fourth Edition, Page 16, 4th Paragraph Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
Kenny Graham napisał(a): I cant seem to find anything Div is generic block.. not generic block of text. Agreed, I worded it badly. It can contain non-text, but doesn't have to. In most cases it groups block elements as for grouping inline there are other dedicated elements as span which is inline itself (so it should be used between inline content) and p block element (so it should be used between block elements) for grouping inline text content. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-DIV - see first example over there I'd argue that the example on that page is much more of a paragraph than a date is. XHTML2 is apparently going to fix paragraphs so that they can contain lists, as that example tries to do by using an unclosed p. This example is up to SGML not XML so paragraph element doesn't need to be closed. If it's not closed it doesn't mean that author want to include all of the following elements within. In this example paragraph ends before table starts. Paragraph is just separated text content.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph and mind that html is not sophisticated word processor..were paragraph may have more stricter meaning. More precisely, it says it's a self-contained unit of a discourse, and the same website defines discourse as In semantics, discourses are linguistic units composed of several sentences. I'm not sure I completely agree (some paragraphs are only one sentence long, for instance), but surely a paragraph element has more semantic meaning than to separate bits of text from one another, as used to be done with unclosed ps and brs. Semantics for XHTML p element is same as for HTML p element and it was always bad practice to use br's to separate blocks of text in articles (as it is automatically and more naturally achieved when using p elements) Also this pages sounds logically to me (while they're not html specs): http://big.faceless.org/products/report/docs/tags/tags/div.html http://big.faceless.org/products/report/docs/tags/tags/p.html I disagree with most of that article. It says headers and blockquotes are subtypes of paragraph elements (where do they get this from?), that all text must be inside paragraphs (what about lists?), and that if you don't enclose text, it's enclosed in an anonymous p tag, inserted by the XML parser itself. Parsers do enclose some text in anonymous block elements, but they're not paragraph elements. By 'subtypes' I understand that for e.g. if we wouldn't have header element then p element would be most accurate for header text and this is logical to me. This way I put date into p element.. as there's no dedicated element for date and it is text content. Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 WWW: http://www.medikoo.com XHTML/CSS Coding: http://cxc.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
I cant seem to find anything Div is generic block.. not generic block of text. Agreed, I worded it badly. It can contain non-text, but doesn't have to. In most cases it groups block elements as for grouping inline there are other dedicated elements as span which is inline itself (so it should be used between inline content) and p block element (so it should be used between block elements) for grouping inline text content. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-DIV - see first example over there I'd argue that the example on that page is much more of a paragraph than a date is. XHTML2 is apparently going to fix paragraphs so that they can contain lists, as that example tries to do by using an unclosed p. Paragraph is just separated text content.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph and mind that html is not sophisticated word processor..were paragraph may have more stricter meaning. More precisely, it says it's a self-contained unit of a discourse, and the same website defines discourse as In semantics, discourses are linguistic units composed of several sentences. I'm not sure I completely agree (some paragraphs are only one sentence long, for instance), but surely a paragraph element has more semantic meaning than to separate bits of text from one another, as used to be done with unclosed ps and brs. Also this pages sounds logically to me (while they're not html specs): http://big.faceless.org/products/report/docs/tags/tags/div.html http://big.faceless.org/products/report/docs/tags/tags/p.html I disagree with most of that article. It says headers and blockquotes are subtypes of paragraph elements (where do they get this from?), that all text must be inside paragraphs (what about lists?), and that if you don't enclose text, it's enclosed in an anonymous p tag, inserted by the XML parser itself. Parsers do enclose some text in anonymous block elements, but they're not paragraph elements. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
