RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
When it comes to Flash, I think we make a mistake in thinking of it as a web format. It isn't. It's an animation format, which can be used in all kinds of ways -- freestanding applications, kiosks, mobile phones and yes, web pages. So, is the site using Flash for things like navigation, which are essential? Or does the site feature *content* which uses Flash, like a game, or just plain indefinable art? If it uses Flash for navigation, that's inaccessible. If it uses Flash for video and doesn't provide some kind of transcript or description, that's inaccessible. But if a web site wins an award, and its *content* is nothing but Flash, to me, it's winning an award for animation. It's no different from a website winning an award for its embedded Java applet -- it's not really our concern on this list. If we're concerned about web standards, we can look at that site and say OK, its primary content is in a form which is not available to all browsers/platforms, its primary content is not accessible to blind users, but that's fair enough. And then what we can judge them on is how they have dealt with visitors to their site who can't take advantage of its primary content. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards That's all down to inevitable site content though. The designer has done the most he or she could, barring turning down the job. I am involved in a long-term project to design a site with accessibility features similar to this - it is a site primarily concerned with presenting music and graphic art, in key instances using flash and javascript-assisted stylistic presentation, and as such its content is mainly of a hi-tech, sensory and artistic nature. It just so happens that there is a lot of very wordy prose around the site, so perhaps it might meet your standards, but there are very large portions of the site whose raison d'etre is a method of accessing intrinsically audio and visual content that by its nature, cannot have a truly worthwhile text substitute. I am not going to tell the artists to create accessible 'alternatives' to their creations, neither am I going to tell them that their work has no place on the internet except as trivial extra features - I'm proud to be able to help them prove that the internet is exactly the place for them to do whatever they want, all the while abiding by intelligent accessibility standards. The question we should be asking ourselves is how web-based content whose ultimate purpose is to present artistic (and this includes - crucially - corporate art) media should be made to be as accessible as possible, not 'if'. But to say that such sites cannot be well designed is tragic wishful thinking. Remember design is always a means to an end. The Ivy Hotel has done a great job as far as design is concerned. Its content is indeed flimsy in concrete terms, and as an informative document it is very weak - but the internet shouldn't be limited to encyclopedias, reference manuals and opinion columns. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. also you look at the websites home page and your interested so while it may entice the viewers pass the home page, they will not stay beyond that as the home page hides the problems of the whole site. I think as a designer, it is your responsibility to have important content as well as it being accessible, usable and pretty... On 2/6/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards That's all down to inevitable site content though. The designer has done the most he or she could, barring turning down the job. I am involved in a long-term project to design a site with accessibility features similar to this - it is a site primarily concerned with presenting music and graphic art, in key instances using flash and javascript-assisted stylistic presentation, and as such its content is mainly of a hi-tech, sensory and artistic nature. It just so happens that there is a lot of very wordy prose around the site, so perhaps it might meet your standards, but there are very large portions of the site whose raison d'etre is a method of accessing intrinsically audio and visual content that by its nature, cannot have a truly worthwhile text substitute. I am not going to tell the artists to create accessible 'alternatives' to their creations, neither am I going to tell them that their work has no place on the internet except as trivial extra features - I'm proud to be able to help them prove that the internet is exactly the place for them to do whatever they want, all the while abiding by intelligent accessibility standards. The question we should be asking ourselves is how web-based content whose ultimate purpose is to present artistic (and this includes - crucially - corporate art) media should be made to be as accessible as possible, not 'if'. But to say that such sites cannot be well designed is tragic wishful thinking. Remember design is always a means to an end. The Ivy Hotel has done a great job as far as design is concerned. Its content is indeed flimsy in concrete terms, and as an informative document it is very weak - but the internet shouldn't be limited to encyclopedias, reference manuals and opinion columns. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. Just out of curiousity, exactly what content do you find missing from this site? What questions do you have about this hotel that remain unanswered? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. On 2/6/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: Your explanation makes sense but as a designer who also dabbles in seo, would not it be your right to 'suggest' and sell the importance of descent content?? The internet is a place were you find useful or useless information. It is not primely a gallery of art like this website. Just out of curiousity, exactly what content do you find missing from this site? What questions do you have about this hotel that remain unanswered? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. Wow. Lack of room photos equates to: a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. :: not to mention not credible??? Wow. Interesting perspective. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Ok I guess your having a dig at me but I will humour you If your in the hotel business and advertising for a brand new hotel, you need to sell your business and entice people away from their current 'fav' hotels to yours. Do you think not having any photos and just a nice flashy home page will do that? I know for a FACT that it will not. I am currently looking at hotels etc for my honeymoon and you know what me and my fiance look at??? Yes we look at photos of the hotel, what it and the rooms looks like. On 2/6/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jermayn Parker wrote: Photos of what the rooms look like would be one obvious example of what would make this website a bit more credible. Wow. Lack of room photos equates to: a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. :: not to mention not credible??? Wow. Interesting perspective. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Jermayn Parker wrote: If your in the hotel business and advertising for a brand new hotel, you need to sell your business and entice people away from their current 'fav' hotels to yours. Do you think not having any photos and just a nice flashy home page will do that? I know for a FACT that it will not. Interesting definition of FACT :-) I am currently looking at hotels etc for my honeymoon and you know what me and my fiance look at??? Yes we look at photos of the hotel, what it and the rooms looks like. Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? So one flash embedded image and a photo of the hotel exterior is going to give you a good feel about what the hotel is all about??? I do not think so mate. Most hotel websites have a few photos for each different hotel room (penthouse, budget etc) and also photos of the hotel area (reception, restaurant, pool, garden etc) I suggest you to take 5 minutes out of having a go at my emails and go and find some hotel websites and I bet majority of them have more than two photos on their whole website. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/6/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's nice. So, I'm curious -- the site has both a photo (jpeg) of the hotel exterior and a (Flash-embedded) image of one of the rooms, so what's the problem? So one flash embedded image and a photo of the hotel exterior is going to give you a good feel about what the hotel is all about??? I do not think so mate. Most hotel websites have a few photos for each different hotel room (penthouse, budget etc) and also photos of the hotel area (reception, restaurant, pool, garden etc) OK, clearly this website is not a good example of an effective business site but it's a decent example of a progressively-enhanced Flash site. Let's not argue about its business merits... that's straying from the topic of web standards. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
It is not that good... Yes it may load quick but it is a useless uninformative site and apart from the home page it is ugly and bare as naked bones. Lets hope that the designer does not win any awards On 2/3/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Bravo! I took a quick (and only quick) look in Lynx and got a meaningful site. I think that this could be a first. And also a last, as this example neatly takes away any excuse for a primarily Flash-based site to be inaccessible. I seem to recall this all started talking about awards - whoever did the Ivy Hotel design should certainly be in the running for one. Cheers M (Still can't get over it working well in Lynx.) -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Matthew Smith wrote: tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Not liking fancy animations does not make you an accessibility advocate. Apparently everyone hates flash, but for different reasons. Hehehe. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Funny enough, website development depends on your site goal, target audience and client's want. If your site demands that you use a flash (if it's a major communication) then you have to use flash. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barney Carroll Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Matthew Smith wrote: tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Not liking fancy animations does not make you an accessibility advocate. Apparently everyone hates flash, but for different reasons. Hehehe. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz, those sites are incredibly flash-intensive. Without flash, they fail. With flash and a slow connection (or even processor), they run badly. I'm afraid any objective source would give those low marks for accessibility. But they are entirely based on style - there is no real substance in there, it's just visuals. So the demographics they're excluding have nothing to gain from accessing the sites anyway. At which point, to be honest, I'd stop worrying. There is no reason for you to beat yourself up over these things - perhaps nice little flash tests and messages of 'nothing for you here!' on fail, and you've left no-one unaccounted. Having said that, for creations entirely dedicated to art, they're awfully flimsy. This is the 'art' of college design student bimbos drunk on their own hormones and stumbling about the room looking to fall into the lap of the nearest fad. Of course the only fads that stand out when you're inebriated to this point are the ones with garish colours and stuff jumping out all over the place. I suppose if you gave these guys creative directors they could do corporate ads on the internet, possibly music group web sites. 'Emotional' is too strong a word, I reckon (or not strong enough, depending on where you stand). 'Sentimental' might be better. Although it still gives a good indication of the contents. We were warned! Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Now that's what I'm talking about. When everything is available as raw XML and you've got XSLT, you're in flexible heaven. Rob O'Rourke wrote: Not necessarily, check out what Dan Cederholm wrote about his work on MTV.com [1], they have a fully flash site that runs from a server-side generated xml file. Dan's role was to create XSLTs that transformed the same information into an accessible HTML version of the site so that users could chop and change as they saw fit. Now that's the way things should be done if an ENTIRE site is to be made in flash =] [1] http://www.simplebits.com/work/mtv/ I'm actually working on a browser-based multiplayer game with a friend of mine that will work in this way, hopefully it'll be the first truly accessible one too. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Yea, I agree with your comment. Contents that is available through xml for flash improves performance. Also given the user a choice to switch to version of site is good idea to meet end users viewing experience. Like I said, all still boils down to the project goal, target audience and your client. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Sunday John wrote: Funny enough, website development depends on your site goal, target audience and client's want. If your site demands that you use a flash (if it's a major communication) then you have to use flash. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com Not necessarily, check out what Dan Cederholm wrote about his work on MTV.com [1], they have a fully flash site that runs from a server-side generated xml file. Dan's role was to create XSLTs that transformed the same information into an accessible HTML version of the site so that users could chop and change as they saw fit. Now that's the way things should be done if an ENTIRE site is to be made in flash =] [1] http://www.simplebits.com/work/mtv/ I'm actually working on a browser-based multiplayer game with a friend of mine that will work in this way, hopefully it'll be the first truly accessible one too. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Sunday John wrote: Yea, I agree with your comment. Contents that is available through xml for flash improves performance. Also given the user a choice to switch to version of site is good idea to meet end users viewing experience. Like I said, all still boils down to the project goal, target audience and your client. Sunday John Web Developer www.isslng.com True, I'm starting to realise that more and more now as the works piling up =$ Still, at least the world of corporate merchandise e-commerce is a little more accessible now =] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 16:37 +, Rob O'Rourke wrote: True, I'm starting to realise that more and more now as the works piling up =$ Still, at least the world of corporate merchandise e-commerce is a little more accessible now =] Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ -m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Incidentally, I understand that the Googlebot can't read flash-based content, and will generally ignore your metadata. If you're not accessible to Goggle, you can hardly be said to be on the web. cheers mark (spending time at the Wellington 7's!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Thanks for pointing that out Christian, I always loved flash(y) sites before I knew anything about web standards etc... it's nice to know that there are options out there, at least when I have the ability to make something that might be considered arty. Anyone want to lend me a copy of flash 8? =P Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 17:01 -0500, Christian Montoya wrote: On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: miden wrote: Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity: ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so terribly absent. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/ And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably). Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent compromises, and text-based alternatives. It should be, instead, a factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that satisfies on both criteria. Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards. http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Beautiful site - took 1 1/2 to 2 minutes for some pages to load completely on dialup but everything 'important' was available almost immediately. Great site and wasn't bothered by any ugly 'you need flash' notices (why do some/so many designers tolerate having their work marred by those notices when they could do something like this. Great stuff. -m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
A great example of Faust in practice: http://www.ivyhotel.com/ Bravo! I took a quick (and only quick) look in Lynx and got a meaningful site. I think that this could be a first. And also a last, as this example neatly takes away any excuse for a primarily Flash-based site to be inaccessible. I seem to recall this all started talking about awards - whoever did the Ivy Hotel design should certainly be in the running for one. Cheers M (Still can't get over it working well in Lynx.) -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Well, I'll wait with interest to see the response from those whose primary interest is accessibility . . . (I'd duck, if I were you !) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Duck ? Bob - I don't think so... There is a large difference between the word design/designer and code/coder, designer and design are connected with the pure art with a support of usability - code - that's only accesibility... but of course - that's only my opinion... Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) - Original Message - From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Well, I'll wait with interest to see the response from those whose primary interest is accessibility . . . (I'd duck, if I were you !) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional-websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Not fair. You picked these sites, so you have to define your criteria. The ball is in your court to answer that question. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Best Wishes Milosz A. Lodowski Art Director IceAge Design Squadron Be our Ally, Hire our Guns...: www.iceagedesign.co.uk London Visit my PriveFolio: www.lodowski.eu - Be my Guest! Mobile contact: +44 079.23.388.905 (UK) Ice - e-Motional Design Expert www.e-motionaldesign.com - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you define accessible ? pure text ? Not fair. You picked these sites, so you have to define your criteria. The ball is in your court to answer that question. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz - Your site's opening page took almost three minutes to load on a dialup connection... b'bye. I gave up trying to view sites after three successive 'you need flash' notices... b'bye. Judging by what I (finally) saw on your opening page I would guess that the listed pages are quite beautiful but I'll never know. Do flash designers congratulate their clients on being willing to give up a significant proportion of their possible web-related profits for the sake of art (through sites not being accessible, or simply too slow)? I love beautiful sites - but I have to be able to see them before I can appreciate them. -m On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 20:06 +, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' could be implemented with no changes to the html. Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web usability/ accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into any one category other than 'web'. And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just want to know if we think they're pretty/usable? What is your opinion on web accessibility? Rob Nicely put, Rob :) Oh by the way, one of the site (mandchou.com I think) gave me this error: A script in this movie is causing Adobe Flash 9 to run slowly. If it continues to run, your computer may become unresponsive. Do you want to abort the script (YES no) . I think the about message speaks abit about how bad the usability and accesibility for your eye-catching sites? They are pretty though, no doubt about it. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote: Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without any argues I cannot agree so that's why I've asked... I define 'accessible' as be given access. In normal terms that means that if one access-point is closed to particular visitors for whatever reason, then alternatives should be provided. I find a message like Instale o Flash Player to be a closed access-point, and there's no alternative. I also define 'accessible' as be given (at least) a minimum amount of information, so one can make some kind of informed choice. Seems to be lacking also, as I wasn't even informed about which Flash Player version to install on that particular page. (According to Adobe I have Flash Player installed in all my browsers, so it would be nice to know why I should install a new one.) So, I think at least some of those designers should have designed a bit more accessible. They do have the same tools as the rest of us. I also think whoever designed and/or authored the 100 the best E-motional Websites site should have provided a slightly more informative alternative text to those link-images, as seeing The Best 100 of E-motionalDesign.com repeated that many times isn't very informative - IMO. So, yes, I think the experience and accessibility-level can be lifted quite a bit with some informative text. Seriously - a dozen or so well-selected and well-placed words might make all the difference on most of those sites - accessibility-wise. Shouldn't limit the artistic freedom on any level, so I can't see why not. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/2/07 5:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff No idea but you might try asking Apple - it looks exactly the way the Apple Dock works!! (And I'm not entering the art/accessibility discussion - too many strong feelings on that grin) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php On 2/1/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/2/07 5:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff No idea but you might try asking Apple - it looks exactly the way the Apple Dock works!! (And I'm not entering the art/accessibility discussion - too many strong feelings on that grin) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Quoth jonnysoco at 02/02/07 09:41... http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Matthew Smith wrote: Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? Yes. And you can adjust the degree of resize as well, thankfully :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Oh yes. You can choose to have the icons bigger or smaller, and the animation on or off. And the animation relates to the size of the icons - smaller icons = smaller animation. You can also have them not visible at all until you put your cursor right at the bottom of the screen (or wherever the dock is located on your desktop) ... :) On 2/2/07 9:50 AM, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth jonnysoco at 02/02/07 09:41... http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Ah, that's what a Mac dock looks like; haven't seen a Mac for about eight years. Eeeew! The animation nearly made me seasick ;-) Do Macs have a means of turning the animation off for those (like me) who cannot tolerate screen motion? (A bit off-topic, I know, but I believe that accessibility/standards doesn't stop at the content, but extends to software and OS.) Cheers M *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
- Original Message - From: jonnysoco To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;) http://jrgraphix.net/research/flash_dock.php Awesome! Thank you. Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 9:56:49 am Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Picasso's art did make sense, that is why he is famous now. Simple lines. If Picasso were making webpages they would all be accessible. This comparison of genius with self indulgent art for arts sake is annoying. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 1:05 PM, Jermayn Parker wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 9:56:49 am Why would you want to create such an image gallery for navigation, no rollover titles, no idea where each link goes, uses a lot of images for a text based navigation system, maybe it is art but not much else. Tim On 02/02/2007, at 6:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/1/07, Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to present you the list of best100 e-motional designs, we're waiting for your opinions about our idea and choice ;) http://www.e-motionaldesign.com/blog/100-the-best-e-motional- websites-part-1-of-4/ So, a bunch of sites that are pure art and completely inaccessible / hardly usable... what is your point? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com At the bottom of this site: http://www.mandchou.com/ - there is an image gallery in Flash used for navigation. Can someone point me to a tutorial for creating this? -- Thanks! Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** *** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. *** *** *** * The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 *** ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
some of it makes sense (like self portraits etc) but a lot of his sculptures and other stuff doesnt, it went agaisnt the grain of normal painting etc of his era [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 10:14:18 am On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
Interesting how people today still either get Picasso or they don't. Says a lot about the timelessness of the work... Noah PerthWebDesigns.com Quoting Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED]: some of it makes sense (like self portraits etc) but a lot of his sculptures and other stuff doesnt, it went agaisnt the grain of normal painting etc of his era [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/02/2007 10:14:18 am On 2/1/07, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You look at people like Piacoso and his art made no sense and it was popular and so are these types of website, make no sense but are popular (myspace another example) I have no idea what you are talking about. Picasso's art makes total sense to me. Unfortunately it's not very compatible with screen readers. -- The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)
On 2/1/07, Noah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting how people today still either get Picasso or they don't. Says a lot about the timelessness of the work... Well, list-admin said we have to get back on topic, so I'm still wondering if Milosz will share his definition of accessible. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread. G'day. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
