[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
Daniel, Don't retire before your production of Litho Terpsichore I live for the stone scene. dt At 05:09 PM 3/15/2008, you wrote: That's twice now my name has appeared in the same sentence as Barto and O'Dette. Time to frame the post and retire, I've accomplished all I could hope for in the lute world!! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 1:16 AM, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 15, 2008, at 7:58 PM, igor . wrote: If you're going to accuse me of being racist, Igor, at least learn to spell proper English. ;-) # i know David , but i fear i never will ! I am Serbian living in Kroatia , so forgive me if you can.Also,i don't play Lute, i am an amateur Cellist with almost every single Lute album up to date (even having rare Hans Neeman Berlin broadcast recordings) in my discotheque. But i promise to learn to spell proper English once David Tayler learn to spell proper affekte,rhetorique,musical ideas and dynamic on his single-strung arch-lute in Cello Prelude by Bach. Or, if O'Dette does Complete Dowland again but caring not to play again all dances and fantasies so uninformed . I am sure you have heard that Alman differs from Corranto or Fantaisie in so many things. # I wsn't talking about their racial diversity, or their tempi. I was referring to the variety of playing styles they represent. wow, that's true :variety is the key word ! Shoskes is really somewhere else than Bartoso is my beloved Valery so far from O'dette. btw: will you translate word wsn't to me please ? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
Ma zezash me. Moja je lebdjelica puna jegulja :) You can correct my spelling anytime, I don't mind! Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not. dt But i promise to learn to spell proper English once David Tayler learn to spell proper affekte,rhetorique,musical ideas and dynamic To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
-- Forwarded message -- From: igor . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not here we go David : it is clear that affect,rhetoric etc are just WORDS for you ! i mean , listening to your youtube clips every intelligent music lover can see that. in the end : music is an art for everyone to share , including you ( me, as well ) but, at least try to move from zero point where you are right now. it may make you look happier while performing. p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
...believe it or not...? Shouldn't it be, ...believe it or don't..? Sister Mary Diesel (ruler in hand). PS: I'm not quite sure why this thread is becoming so acrimonious. - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:05 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray Ma zezash me. Moja je lebdjelica puna jegulja :) You can correct my spelling anytime, I don't mind! Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not. dt But i promise to learn to spell proper English once David Tayler learn to spell proper affekte,rhetorique,musical ideas and dynamic To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1328 - Release Date: 3/13/2008 11:31 AM
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
-- Forwarded message -- From: igor . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray To: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not here we go David : it is clear that affect,rhetoric etc are just WORDS for you ! i mean , listening to your youtube clips every intelligent music lover can see that. in the end : music is an art for everyone to share , including you ( me, as well ) but, at least try to move from zero point where you are right now. it may make you look happier while performing. p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
There is no historical evidence for Swiss as a lutenist Wrong! Hans Jacob Wecker's duet book, printed in Basel 1552; Rodolf Wyssenbach's print of Zürich; the not surviving print of Wydenhuober (cited in Gesner's bibliograyphy) and the whole manuscript collection around the university of Basel... (including Samedan) Theer exist also other interesting sources like the Bern ms. with French music in accords nouveaux, written by a Swiss soldier in Paris). By the way: I made once (around 1990) a CD with the title Schweizer Lautenmusik - Lautenmusik aus Schweizer Handschriften for the Swiss radio. Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Goldberg Prize
--- howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 15, 2008, at 5:55 AM, Benjamin Narvey wrote: The fact that a generalist early music magazine chose my submission bodes well for us, in that it seems a kind of litmus test showing the interest given the lute from civilian non-pluckers. Or perhaps yours was just far and away the best submission. I suppose you've never even considered that possibility... -- No doubt this was the case. Sadly, the history of human nature reveals that far too often the submission that's far and away the best does _not_ win the prize due to the personal biases of the judges or other political considerations. In addition to what was surely a great essay, I agree with Benjamin that this win is a good sign for all of us pluckers, too. Good work Benjamin! Looking forward to reading it... Chris Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
May be we should create another list, suggest: the inpolite lute list or simple the insult list, exclusively reserved to people bashing comments. That would it make much easier for those to follow who are interested in more lute related discussions. ;-) we igor . schrieb: -- Forwarded message -- From: igor . [1][EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray To: David Tayler [2][EMAIL PROTECTED] Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not here we go David : it is clear that affect,rhetoric etc are just WORDS for you ! i mean , listening to your youtube clips every intelligent music lover can see that. in the end : music is an art for everyone to share , including you ( me, as well ) but, at least try to move from zero point where you are right now. it may make you look happier while performing. p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
On the base of it I would agree, but I find the delete button works as well when a posting subject starts, then deteriorates to the point that I have no interest in it. Occasionally I will look in, as I did here, and thus my comment. Flame wars do nothing to advance our understanding of a subject, just color and diminish our opinion/opinions of those involved. - Original Message - From: Orphenica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray May be we should create another list, suggest: the inpolite lute list or simple the insult list, exclusively reserved to people bashing comments. That would it make much easier for those to follow who are interested in more lute related discussions. ;-) we igor . schrieb: -- Forwarded message -- From: igor . [1][EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Forqueray To: David Tayler [2][EMAIL PROTECTED] Some of these words like affect, rhetoric are actually right, believe it or not here we go David : it is clear that affect,rhetoric etc are just WORDS for you ! i mean , listening to your youtube clips every intelligent music lover can see that. in the end : music is an art for everyone to share , including you ( me, as well ) but, at least try to move from zero point where you are right now. it may make you look happier while performing. p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1331 - Release Date: 3/16/2008 10:34 AM
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
Thanks a lot! That's really helpful. This obviously means one has to have top quality gear and a big experience in positioning mics and setting all the thing in order to sound just natural, which explains quite a lot why it's so expensive to record in a professional studio. However thinking in a budget way (even if our equipment allows for 88.2/24) I wonder if there are ways of correcting (by EQ ?)already amateurish recordings, mainly problems that are caused by cheaper mics like metallic or hissing sound quality (very common!). JL -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:26 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings Absolutely, yes, it is better to have more bits. I'm just saying the primary advantage, one of many, for the 24 bits is the depth of the sound and the easy volume changes. When presented with the long list of choices, unless disk space is really an issue, you are looking at 44/24 for CD, 48/24 everything else including MP3, MP4 output. You can certainly use 44.1 for MP3 if your software/reverb package is set up for it--and some are optimized for it. And you can experiment with 88.2/24, 96/24 if you wish! Or 192/24. Most effects are not optimized for higher sampling sampling rates, but are optimized for higher bit depths. The main issue with lute recordings is the gain and the mic/converter sound. And how to make an edit. On the lute, you can basically edit on every note. And some people do! The workflow is important--don't start in 48 and convert to 44.1 for CD, or start in 44.1 and convert to 48 for video. Don't put dither on top of dither (the most common mistake). I mainly use mics for EQ so that is less of a consideration, but some people use eq a lot. I think most ppl use too much compression and it makes the sound worse-- Use manual compression with crossfades and 24 bit gain! That is the real secret. Most recordings I make really have either minimal or zero effects processing--but if something needs fixing, I want to have that option. And it's all in 24 bit for the gain resolution issues. And if recording at home, you will need some kind of effects to take the edge off. So here you have to be practical and decide if it sounds better or just looks better. And when auditioning gear you have to have a friend set it up, so you don't know what is what :) Never record in less than 24 bits, for whatever reason you like! You can always trim the extra bits, but not the other way. Mainly, recordings invariably have One Big Mistake. For example you have a really fine firewire interface, Canare Starquad or Mogami cable, quiet studio, great lute. excellent performance, and a budget mic that the salesperson strongly recommended. Sennheiser shock mounts. But the mic was made in China for $7, the Megastore bought it for $45 and it sold for $200. And the recording sounded bright and hissy... And just try to get someone to part with their $7 mic. Or you have a nice mic and a ten dollar cable, and the recording has a buzz on it or a local radio station. Or you have the most expensive equipment in the world and the phase is reversed. Or the mic is too close and there is a lot of bass boom finger noise. Hey it is really hard to make a good lute recording, why else would they have a thousand edits in them? People rarely use 88.2 even though it is better for CD mastering. (assuming the converters are optimized properly--not always the case!) Higher sampling rates, these can sound better if handled correctly, but can easily sound worse. But, absolutely, yes, it is better to have more bits. And in video, always use high definition, even if the end result is youtube. I suspect in a few years you will be able to get a really good flash recorder for under $100---and they really are very cool. dt __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2949 (20080315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
I don't think EQ will do it, the free room simulator software or the more expensive professional versions help a little bit, but once you lose the essential harmonics it is difficult to replace them. When using budget mics, the main thing is minimize the reflections. So here you need a really large room, in a studio the sound insulation will invariably remove most of the high frequencies. Most lute recordings are heavily processed in addition to recording in churches or resonant spaces, so there is a kind of artificial standard in place. The main effect of the reverb or churchy acoustic is to provide a continuous bed of sound, otherwise when shifting in and out of bar chords the sound would stop and start. This stopping and starting of the sound reflects the way the instrument actually sounds. And of course good players are better at managing the differences. The reverb/church effectively removes all or most of this aspect of the technique. You could say that in this regard the modern taste for lute has a sweet tooth--and the analogy perhaps in art would be to take the Mona Lisa and photoshop it so the colors are all really jazzed up, saturated and vibrant. Then the painting would look nice and kodachromy, but you would lose the sfumato.--the integral transitional elements. On the other hand, just like a really good restoration, a tiny hint of sound processing might bring us back closer in sound to the best lutes played by the best players. The current state of recording exists however to cover up or remove mistakes, not to amplify the intrinsic beauty of the instrument. Paradoxically, the very best lutes by modern makers are not always the ones best represented in recordings. I heard a Gottlieb lute once that had the most unbelievable sound, yet the internal resonance was not ideal to apply reverb either as a church or with software--and this is as it should be! That lute needed only a nice room and a player--it would be the Truth Lute--beautiful yet revealing. But it would be difficult to record that instrument and bring it into the sugary mainstream. dt At 09:04 AM 3/16/2008, you wrote: Thanks a lot! That's really helpful. This obviously means one has to have top quality gear and a big experience in positioning mics and setting all the thing in order to sound just natural, which explains quite a lot why it's so expensive to record in a professional studio. However thinking in a budget way (even if our equipment allows for 88.2/24) I wonder if there are ways of correcting (by EQ ?)already amateurish recordings, mainly problems that are caused by cheaper mics like metallic or hissing sound quality (very common!). JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Forqueray
Hovercraft :) p.s. what's lebdjelica ?? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
David, your comparison of the digital camera and the digital recorder are helpful, although I am not technologically competent enough to say just how far you can go in that direction. Evidently, the lens or microphone set the overall limit in recording quality, whatever equipment comes afterwards. Although, you can always digitally enhance a poor recording (image/sound), the quality is never quite the same, and the ease with which this can be done on digital is a danger, as much as an advantage. I fear the temptation to over tweak leads us to a sort of stereotyping and neutralization giving that bland sameness to so many recent photos and sound recordings. It doesn't much matter if everyone's holidays snaps look identical, with the sun always shining, the sky ideally blue, and everything snapped into focus, including the background; but in a music recording, if engineers all have the same ideal of room reverb, and believe we all have the same noisy hifi systems, the result is a boosted electrified lute in a halo of room echo. It is so easy to digitally remove every blemish (photos and sound), even, as you say, editing single notes on a lute recording, but in so doing, editing out all the life from the recording. Why are live recordings, with their blemishes and coughs, so much more interesting? Meanwhile, some of us may become used to the low level lossy compressed format of Mpeg and Jpeg on computers and i-pods, but they are just convenience formats, for note jottings and snap shootings and as David says should never be enlarged. CD is bad enough, but I think these compressed formats are actually beginning to degrade the public expectation of what a good recording or image might be. Please remember that a good analog recording or photo is often equal and even, in some cases , well ahead in quality over digital recordings, albeit at a high price. Take an analog photo on a Linhoff plate camera, or make a lute recording on two synchronized Mono Nagra tape recorders, if you have chosen the right lens and microphone, you will find out what I mean. http://tinyurl.com/24kfdr Right there is the price and convenience to consider, but the high quality results this sort of equipment can attain should be the target that professional photographers and sound engineers should be aiming for. Of course equipment is not everything. As David implies, the skill of the sound engineer in knowing how to place the microphones, and to find the best settings for the recording venue, which should mean a minimum of post recording tweaking, and so a better result even from a not so good recording system.You can even tweak the recording colour by choosing a particular mic, but you can not expect an amateur to be able to do that. On the other hand, we have all heard those hifi recordings of second- rate orchestras, marvellous sound, but uninteresting music; a musician will no doubt prefer the appalling sound of a Robinhood record, recorded directly from the speaker of some radio loudspeaker during a live performance of an exceptional orchestra and conductor at one of their moments of greatness. It is good to have the best of both worlds, however. Keep those Zoom H2s rolling, but please no H2 CDs, unless, of course, your performance has just reached that Robin-Hood status and you think that you may have peaked, or worse. One lutist on the French lute list has a personally made live recording of Michael Schäffer in concert (who sadly died so young), perhaps this is the sort of historic lute candidate for a Robin Hood recording? Anthony PS David is right to give us the minimum quality equipment for a reasonable CD or DVD quality, but I fear many will settle for this minimum quality. That is obviously why it is sometimes better to hire the competence of a sound engineer who has very good equipment and knows how to use it. Although, how many are really capable of making good lute recordings and have that sort of equipment, I sometimes doubt. Perhaps David could comment on that. Just one other question: in the case of a digital camera all megapixels are not equal. The size of the sensor determines that too many pixels on too small a sensor will make more noise. Is there an equivalent problem on Digital sound recordings? Le 15 mars 08 à 22:33, David Tayler a écrit : Sorry... When you buy a flash audio recorder--a great teaching/learning tool-- you have to decide in the settings how much resolution to use. There's lots of settings, and the manufacturers are not helpful. The bits is like (but not exactly like) the number of megapixels on a camera, more megapixels means you can enlarge the photo more, or have more detail. When you listen to a CD you are hearing 16 bits of resolution, that is like say a two megapixel camera in terms of history and quality. If you were to try to make the volume louder, so that it
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
Passion is a delicious fruit too, David ;-) ! I agree with you and I also deplore the standardization of lute sound in recent recordings. But H2s or equivalent devices can be very useful, impartial tools to work with, certainly NOT to make a Cd !!! I am preparing to do a recording next summer for a little French label (Peyrole Records) whose policy is to make ONLY live recordings, no editing AT ALL... They have a very good equipment of course and appropriate places to record, plenty of time to do it, but I must say it still sounds like a challenge. Have to choose the proper repertoire for a first experience, in my case plucked strings duets with my friend and colleague Thierry Meunier (lutes, theorbo, baroque guitar and renaissance guitars). I don't know precisely what will come out of it but I look forward to that test, not without apprehension, but that is stimulating, isn't it ? All the best, Jean-Marie === 16-03-2008 21:21:06 === David T. wrote: Most lute recordings are heavily processed in addition to recording in churches or resonant spaces, so there is a kind of artificial standard in place. .. The reverb/church effectively removes all or most of this aspect of the technique. You could say that in this regard the modern taste for lute has a sweet tooth .. The current state of recording exists however to cover up or remove mistakes, not to amplify the intrinsic beauty of the instrument. Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more. My own experience as a listener and cd reviewer, as a player with a few recordings of my own and as a producer of some other recordings I cannot agree more with what David T. wrote. This is how it is now and I think it is a sad state of affairs. But isn't up to us to change this? Let's make different recordings. Let's listen with different ears. Let's try to capture the essence of the lute sound and the musical personalities of the players in live performances in our recordings. Let's not make technical perfection and a lush 'easy' sound our priorities. The results are sterile cds for easy consumption: muzak. So, to all of you out there with your Zooms: go for the real thing, don't imitate cds, but record yourself as realistically as possible. David - in the middle of the easter season, hence the passion David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 16-03-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amateur recordings
This is fascinating, in that the topic of recordings is coming up, in particular with lack of editing. Toyohiko Satoh just released a new CD, music of Phillip Franz LeSage de Richee, on a period instrument, in a.. plain gut, no edits, complete whole takes. It is refreshing, to say the least. I love it. It is a very real sound, and not the homogenized sound we are used to hearing. ed At 10:07 PM 3/16/2008 +0100, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Passion is a delicious fruit too, David ;-) ! I agree with you and I also deplore the standardization of lute sound in recent recordings. But H2s or equivalent devices can be very useful, impartial tools to work with, certainly NOT to make a Cd !!! I am preparing to do a recording next summer for a little French label (Peyrole Records) whose policy is to make ONLY live recordings, no editing AT ALL... They have a very good equipment of course and appropriate places to record, plenty of time to do it, but I must say it still sounds like a challenge. Have to choose the proper repertoire for a first experience, in my case plucked strings duets with my friend and colleague Thierry Meunier (lutes, theorbo, baroque guitar and renaissance guitars). I don't know precisely what will come out of it but I look forward to that test, not without apprehension, but that is stimulating, isn't it ? All the best, Jean-Marie === 16-03-2008 21:21:06 === David T. wrote: Most lute recordings are heavily processed in addition to recording in churches or resonant spaces, so there is a kind of artificial standard in place. .. The reverb/church effectively removes all or most of this aspect of the technique. You could say that in this regard the modern taste for lute has a sweet tooth .. The current state of recording exists however to cover up or remove mistakes, not to amplify the intrinsic beauty of the instrument. Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more. My own experience as a listener and cd reviewer, as a player with a few recordings of my own and as a producer of some other recordings I cannot agree more with what David T. wrote. This is how it is now and I think it is a sad state of affairs. But isn't up to us to change this? Let's make different recordings. Let's listen with different ears. Let's try to capture the essence of the lute sound and the musical personalities of the players in live performances in our recordings. Let's not make technical perfection and a lush 'easy' sound our priorities. The results are sterile cds for easy consumption: muzak. So, to all of you out there with your Zooms: go for the real thing, don't imitate cds, but record yourself as realistically as possible. David - in the middle of the easter season, hence the passion David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 16-03-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1330 - Release Date: 3/15/2008 2:36 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
