[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lobkowicz tablatures
/ === - Original Message - From: Peter Király [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:49 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Lobkowicz tablatures | Dear collected whisom, | | does anyone of you know the present shelf numbers of the Lobkowicz | tablatures, which were formerly kept at Praha Narodni / Universitni | Knihovna. I mean the tablatures, which had the signatures: II. kk. | 49, II. kk. 51, etc. | | Many thanks in advance: Peter Kiraly | | | | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html | __ Informace od ESET NOD32 Antivirus, verze databaze 3670 (20081208) __ Tuto zpravu proveril ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.cz __ Informace od ESET NOD32 Antivirus, verze databaze 3670 (20081208) __ Tuto zpravu proveril ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.cz
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
David, I agree with your preferences, especially about the diapassons. FWIW, here are some personal guidelines that have crystalized through the years, and this in relation to tablatures only, I'm not talking about grand staff or notation: Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on the music stand) Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista) Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.) Don't cram the staffs. 6 on one sheet is maximum for my 12-14 point font in landscape view Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14) Wherever possible, slightly reduce global symbol spacing to include those 2 or three bars on page 2 to avoid a page change Include composer name, date of publication and eventual name of publication, but also the library and shelf name for easier locating of the original facsimile if a manuscript. Allow room for pencil marks of ornaments etc. Tablature numbers on lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) (debatable also for letters) Make book editions instead of single pieces, for easier navigating and correcting, as well as global page settings Include a few (or many) lines of available information from New Grove or original source at beginning or end of book (not forgetting to name the contributors when available!) as well as info on personal settings, signs, etc. of publication And a note to our eminent programmers. Please, please, make works made in earlier versions of the program display *perfectly* on the newer version. IMO, don't publish a newer version until this is the case! This is now _not_ the case :( I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the raster rhythm signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to read font. IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as _easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most information possible. A tablature publication should _not_ try to be a work of art in that sense - it should mainly be an instrument to enable duplication and interpretation of the composers intentions. So I for one would prefer to throw those other unhelpful aesthetic considerations overboard. Modern (as in newly composed) scores will probably have to differ from these guidelines in some respects I've probably forgotten something, but WTH Best G. - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] tablature notation guidelines These days there are many software packages enabling everybody to produce tablatures. Many of us do, for free on our websites or in home-made inexpensive editions. Not all of these tablatures are as beautiful, or as easy to read. For the free or inexpensive editions that's fine with me; if the content is interesting I'll read from anything, or make my own version if it's too revolting. I'm glad I could find the music. But in looking at not so inexpensive editions from 'real' publishers, I am repeatedly struck by their far from perfect tablatures, and staff notation for that matter, as well. For staff notation, there are guidelines that help in making decisions on how to solve notational questions. The better engraving software will automatically follow these guidelines. For an example, have a look at http://mpa.org/music_notation/. These guidelines should present musicians with more or less standard sheet music. The benefits are obvious: it's fine to be able to read facsimiles, necessary for us, obviously, but when you're playing in an orchestra and are presented with your part on the day of the rehearsal or the concert, it's nice you don't have to spend time in deciphering what the editor meant. So, in stead of complaining about the poor output of such and such software, engraver or publisher, wouldn't it be nice to have some guidelines to help all of us make better tablatures? Yes, that should include simple things like b's and d's running into each other, g's that look like a's with an ornament, i's that lack a dot (or are these l's?). There are many, many aspects that are time and place dependant - I like to read my Ballard in another font than my Gaultier, I like different flag rules for Dowland than for Weiss - but I wouldn't want ciphers run into each other in either, and clumsy diapasson notation is unwanted in all. The various solutions people have found to
[LUTE] tablature notation guidelines
These days there are many software packages enabling everybody to produce tablatures. Many of us do, for free on our websites or in home-made inexpensive editions. Not all of these tablatures are as beautiful, or as easy to read. For the free or inexpensive editions that's fine with me; if the content is interesting I'll read from anything, or make my own version if it's too revolting. I'm glad I could find the music. But in looking at not so inexpensive editions from 'real' publishers, I am repeatedly struck by their far from perfect tablatures, and staff notation for that matter, as well. For staff notation, there are guidelines that help in making decisions on how to solve notational questions. The better engraving software will automatically follow these guidelines. For an example, have a look at http://mpa.org/music_notation/. These guidelines should present musicians with more or less standard sheet music. The benefits are obvious: it's fine to be able to read facsimiles, necessary for us, obviously, but when you're playing in an orchestra and are presented with your part on the day of the rehearsal or the concert, it's nice you don't have to spend time in deciphering what the editor meant. So, in stead of complaining about the poor output of such and such software, engraver or publisher, wouldn't it be nice to have some guidelines to help all of us make better tablatures? Yes, that should include simple things like b's and d's running into each other, g's that look like a's with an ornament, i's that lack a dot (or are these l's?). There are many, many aspects that are time and place dependant - I like to read my Ballard in another font than my Gaultier, I like different flag rules for Dowland than for Weiss - but I wouldn't want ciphers run into each other in either, and clumsy diapasson notation is unwanted in all. The various solutions people have found to notate ornaments could use a little standarisation, too. Perhaps it would be a list of the obvious, but it seems to me many of us could use a little check-list of the obvious to help us produce better tablatures. Did Alain Veylit or Francesco Tribioli ever write down some of the guidelines they drew up when making their software? That would perhaps be the obvious starting point for my proposal. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lilypond da Milano
Just wanted to mention, some of PDF readers automatically update the output, i. e. after first creating .ly file, i look at the .pdf output on OKULAR (new KDE pdf reader). If i have to make any repairs, i do, and run the lilypond again (just keeping a tiny terminal window open). OKULAR updates immedeately, and this way i can see on the page graphic results (in Okular preferences there is setting Reload document on file change). This creates a certain cross-over between WYWIWYG and WYSIWYG . EMACS with lilypond plugin does a similar thing, as well as does JEDIT . alexander Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 2:53 PM Alexander, Thank you very much! It may be unconventional, but I think it looks perfectly respectable and very useful -- maybe I should add for tablature? Others, Peter. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Hm, Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on the music stand) I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista) For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system. Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.) Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar. Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14) That is sort of difficult on paper :) Tablature numbers on lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) (debatable also for letters) I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through should be easier to read. Would you strike through everything in a book? I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the raster rhythm signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to read font. I prefer those 'raster rhythm signs'. IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as _easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most information possible. You can't square the circle. A tablature publication should _not_ try to be a work of art in that sense - it should mainly be an instrument to enable duplication and interpretation of the composers intentions. So I for one would prefer to throw those other unhelpful aesthetic considerations overboard. Composer intentions? Nobody knows Dowland's intentions. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IT Business Solutions Division CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Duesseldorf - Germany Phone: +49 (211) 5296-0 - Fax: +49 (211) 5296-400 Handelsregister Duesseldorf HRB 22487 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Hitoshi Otsuka Amtsgericht Duesseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote: Would you strike through everything in a book? It would be a great improvement in many books. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Yeah! But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely! G. - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List LUTELIST Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote: Would you strike through everything in a book? It would be a great improvement in many books. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
-Original Message- From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Yeah! But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely! Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IT Business Solutions Division Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Duesseldorf - Germany Phone: +49 (211) 5296-0 - Fax: +49 (211) 5296-400 Handelsregister Duesseldorf HRB 22487 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Hitoshi Otsuka Amtsgericht Duesseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote: Hm, Me too, mmm. I don't mean to answer Rainer here but will offer my responses to the same questions to show my differing taste. Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on the music stand) I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen I prefer portrait but often play from the screen. One can get two portrait pages comfortably enough on a screen larger than 17. My 12 laptop screen really pushes the limit for two pages but may work for a single landscape page. Unfortunately, that's not a long piece of music. Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista) For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system. And I prefer ciphers only on a change. The raster system like the English mss. (eg. Board book) makes the page so busy w/ superfluous information that I find it distracting. I also find the gratuitous use of a rhythm sign at the beginning of each measure distracting. Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.) Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar. I like it on every measure. When working w/ other musicians the 2 or 3 seconds everyone takes as they count from the first measure of that line (or 5th measure) is distracting. I know this clutters up the page but the brain quickly learns to disregard them. Yes, I know I stand virtually alone on this point. A good tab program should give you the choice. Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14) That is sort of difficult on paper :) 12-14 works for me. And for any kind of performance I use a bold variant. Visibility, visibility visibility! Anything smaller means that the music has to be so close as to lose any contact w/ the audience. What's the point of having a beautiful instrument if your audience only sees a standard issue music stand? Tablature numbers on lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) (debatable also for letters) I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through should be easier to read. Would you strike through everything in a book? Ditto! It's pointless to take a perfectly readable typeface and then run a stupid line through it! I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the raster rhythm signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to read font. One more personal thing I need is to seperate long passaggi into groups of 4 (or 6 if nec.). When flying along on consort music or Terzi that little dot below doesn't do enough to show me where the larger beat is or show me my place if I have to check my fingering. (btw, words and text have been doing this to great advantage for years!) If the tab program doesn't let me do this easily then it's essentially useless for performance reading. I do a lot of work in the two Fronimos but for performance I ALWAYS copy it into Fronimo 2.1 for this very reason. I also prefer the choice of creating more space for longer note values. I take a lot of info in by peripheral vision and knowing where the long notes are coming up helps in interpretation. My father was a layout editor for many years and taught me the value of what works for the eyes and how the brain subconsciously uses it. Maybe, on the other hand, I'm crippled by my visual standards but I have to feel comfortable about what I put on the music stand in front of people. my 2 cents, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Likewise. I can play OK from either, but I prefer tab between the lines, not on them. I doubt you can make a clearcut case for either; I think it's more a matter of preference/habit. Any tablature guidelines that you come up with need to accommodate the fact that different people are going to have different preferences about things like on/off the line symbols, fonts, even things like how many measures to a stave and staves to a page (I like to be able to pack them in or stretch them out if necessary to avoid awkward breaks). I'd also prefer flexibility in measure numbering, although that's more important for accompaniment or ensemble playing. -Original Message- From: Spring, aus dem, Rainer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:51 AM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines -Original Message- From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Yeah! But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely! Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IT Business Solutions Division Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Duesseldorf - Germany Phone: +49 (211) 5296-0 - Fax: +49 (211) 5296-400 Handelsregister Duesseldorf HRB 22487 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Hitoshi Otsuka Amtsgericht Duesseldorf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lilypond da Milano
One more bit i did not think about: changed font to italic, more
appropriate.
http://www.4shared.com/dir/10890314/b1afbb12/Francesco.html
\version 2.10.33
\header{
title = Ricercar
opus = \markup {\small \italic (N 52)}
composer = Francesco da Milano
tagline =
piece = \markup {\small \italic }
}
\paper{
paper-size = letter
oddFooterMarkup = Francesco Ricercar
%%system-count = #10
ragged-bottom = ##t
ragged-lastbottom = ##t
%%print-page-number = ##t
top-margin = .001\in
%%bottom-margin = .1\in
%%head-separation = 0\in
%%foot-separation = 0\in
%%between-system-space = .25\in
%%between-system-padding = .25\in
before-title-space = .001\in
between-title-space = .001\in
after-title-space = .001\in
myStaffSize = #17
}
#(set-global-staff-size 17
)
#(define (fret-letter-tablature-format string tuning pitch)
(make-string 1 (integer-char
(+ (char-integer #\a)
(- (ly:pitch-semitones pitch)
(list-ref tuning (- string 1)))
bb = \bar |
offset = {
\override Voice.Stem #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .6)
\override Voice.Beam #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .6)
}
I = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\once \override Score.MetronomeMark #'transparent = ##t
\tempo 4 = 42
\offset
\stemUp g'4\1 g8\1 g\1 \bar | d4\2 d\2 \bar | r8 a'\1 g\1 f\2
ees\2 g16.\1 a32\1 \bar |
bes8\1 bes\1 a\1 g\1 \bb g\1 f\2 ees\2 d\2 \bb r16 f\2 ees\2 d\2 r
bes'\1 a\1 g\1 r c\1 \bb
bes8.\1 a16\1 g16.\1 f32\2 ees16 d c f8 ees16 \bb d8. s r16 d \bb bes
ees d g[ f bes] g c a f \bb
g bes8 a g fis16 \bb g4 f8 d ees4 d8 s \bb
f16. g32 a16 f c'4 \bb bes8. bes16 a g8 fis16 \bb g8 g g ees16 c d
bes c d \bb
ees16. d32 c16 bes a g32\4 a \bb bes c d e f g a bes c16 bes a g \bb
f32 ees d c bes a g f ees d c bes\6
r16 c'' bes a g bes a g \bb f a g f e g f e \bb r bes' a g16. e32 fis
g fis16 g \bb g4 \bar ||
}
II = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\stemDown s1 d8\2 d\2 bes\3 bes\3 r16 c\3 ees8\2
d s s c bes a c d\3 c s s s c
d8. s s s bes c16 bes c a8 s16 c bes ees s d ees8 c16 d\3
ees d c8 d s s1
s4.. ees16 d8. d16 c bes a8 s16 ees' d c8 b16 c a\4 bes g8 bes16
s4. s2 s4.
s16 c d8 bes c a bes s4 d8 s s4 d
}
III = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\offset
\stemUp g8\4 g16\4 a\3 bes\3 g\4 bes8\3 g4\4 g\4 fis8\4 s s s g4
r16 g d'8 r16 f, s8 g r16 f s8 g16 f f8\4 bes g c a\4
g8. s s s s a16 g8. fis16 g8 s16 c a d g,8 s
s4 bes8 a g4 a c bes16. c32 d16 bes
a4 s g s g8 s s s s s
s4. s4 ees'16 d c bes a s s4
s2 s4 g8 a f c'16 bes a8 a b g4
}
IV = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\stemDown g,4\6 g8\6 g\6 g\6 g16\6 a\6 bes\6 g\6 bes\6 c\5 d8\5 d\5
ees\5 d16\5 bes\6 c8\5 c\5
g\6 r16 g\6 d'8 r16 c r16 g\6 d'8 r16 c r bes\6 s8 g'\4 ees c4
r16 g32\6 a\6 bes\6 c d16 ees c32 d ees f g16 a f32 g a bes c16 r
bes,32\6 c d ees f16\5 s c d8 ees16 c g' c, d bes\6 c8 f16 bes\4
ees, bes\6 ees f g bes,\6 c d g,16.\6 a32\6 bes16\6 g\6 d'16. ees32
f16 d c16. d32 ees16 c g8.\6 g16\6
d'8. d16 c16. d32 ees16 c g16.\6 a32\6 bes16\6 g\6 a\6 bes\6 c d g,\6
c b\6 c g8\6 c16 f\5 bes,\6 ees8 bes16\6
c d ees16. d32 c16 bes\6 g8\6 d' c16 d f g d8 g,4\6
a32\6 g\6 a16\6 g\6 d' ees8 c d bes\6 c a\6 bes\6 c d d g,4\6
}
\score {
\new TabStaff = guitar tab
\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3 -7 -12 -17)
%\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3)
%%\override TabStaff.Stem #'transparent = ##t
%%\override TabStaff.Dots #'transparent = ##t
\set TabStaff.tablatureFormat = #fret-letter-tablature-format
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .3)
\set Score.defaultBarType = empty
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'font-shape = #'italic
\context TabVoice = I {\I }
\context TabVoice = II {\II }
%\context TabVoice = III {\III \III}
%\context TabVoice = IV {\IV \IV}
\new TabStaff = guitar tab
\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3 -7 -12 -17)
%\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(-7 -12 -17)
%%\override TabStaff.Stem #'transparent = ##t
%%\override TabStaff.Dots #'transparent = ##t
\set TabStaff.tablatureFormat = #fret-letter-tablature-format
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .3)
\set Score.defaultBarType = empty
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'font-shape = #'italic
%\context TabVoice = I {\I \I}
%\context TabVoice = II {\II \II}
\context TabVoice = III {\III }
\context TabVoice = IV {\IV }
\layout { }
\midi {
}
}
alexander
--
To get
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Well, there you go. I can appreciate that. See, choice is good. That's if we are designing a program for our personal use. To design a standard for what we'd like to see from the published/outside, on-paper world gets more difficult. It may come about that tabs eventually get published in digital format. If we had our machines ready and could open the file to change it to our preference we'd be good to go. Maybe the lute societies and webpagers could tell us more about how they distribute music on the web and what feedback they get from their constituents. my 2.1 cents Sean On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:24 AM, William Brohinsky wrote: I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks. I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more pronounced. That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is harder to read than on-lines. There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, really! ray On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my point. G. - Original Message - From: Spring, aus dem, Rainer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines -Original Message- From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Yeah! But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely! Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Question: If all lute tab publishing is standardized to one specific variety, based on some overarching consensus, what happens to the art of reading the other varieties? Won't we be setting ourselves up to become so wedded to one variety of TAB that there won't be anyone left in two generations (other, maybe, than doddering nonogenarians) who can manage transcription from other kinds of Tab? I'll admit that I'd like french-style baroque tab with a little less flourish and confusion. But if I don't ever bother to learn to read it, I won't be able to do anything with manuscripts. I, for one, don't want that lost. ray On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, there you go. I can appreciate that. See, choice is good. That's if we are designing a program for our personal use. To design a standard for what we'd like to see from the published/outside, on-paper world gets more difficult. It may come about that tabs eventually get published in digital format. If we had our machines ready and could open the file to change it to our preference we'd be good to go. Maybe the lute societies and webpagers could tell us more about how they distribute music on the web and what feedback they get from their constituents. my 2.1 cents Sean On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:24 AM, William Brohinsky wrote: I think, maybe, we can skip the prejudicial ad-hominem remarks. I try to play from all kinds of tablature, and frankly, I find the in-the-line notation hardest. And, as my age increases (which can be said of all of us on this list: if you've figured a way to get younger as time progresses, please contact me 8^) it only gets more pronounced. That said, when the lines are too close together, between-lines is harder to read than on-lines. There are way too many variables for anyone to get too didactic, really! ray On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM, G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you actually tried to play from it, I believe that you'd get my point. G. - Original Message - From: Spring, aus dem, Rainer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines -Original Message- From: G. Crona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:34 PM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Yeah! But jokes aside, if one would actually take a look at, and play from tablature on the lines, one could easily see what I'm trying to say. The arguement that its easy(er) to read should hold ground quite nicely! Not at all. And I can't see any reason why it should. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lilypond da Milano
It gets nicer all the time!
I'm confident that if somebody really wanted to do so, suchbody could
import and use Wayne's lute fonts in Lilypond.
Peter.
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, alexander rakov wrote:
One more bit i did not think about: changed font to italic, more
appropriate.
http://www.4shared.com/dir/10890314/b1afbb12/Francesco.html
\version 2.10.33
\header{
title = Ricercar
opus = \markup {\small \italic (N 52)}
composer = Francesco da Milano
tagline =
piece = \markup {\small \italic }
}
\paper{
paper-size = letter
oddFooterMarkup = Francesco Ricercar
%%system-count = #10
ragged-bottom = ##t
ragged-lastbottom = ##t
%%print-page-number = ##t
top-margin = .001\in
%%bottom-margin = .1\in
%%head-separation = 0\in
%%foot-separation = 0\in
%%between-system-space = .25\in
%%between-system-padding = .25\in
before-title-space = .001\in
between-title-space = .001\in
after-title-space = .001\in
myStaffSize = #17
}
#(set-global-staff-size 17
)
#(define (fret-letter-tablature-format string tuning pitch)
(make-string 1 (integer-char
(+ (char-integer #\a)
(- (ly:pitch-semitones pitch)
(list-ref tuning (- string 1)))
bb = \bar |
offset = {
\override Voice.Stem #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .6)
\override Voice.Beam #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .6)
}
I = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\once \override Score.MetronomeMark #'transparent = ##t
\tempo 4 = 42
\offset
\stemUp g'4\1 g8\1 g\1 \bar | d4\2 d\2 \bar | r8 a'\1 g\1 f\2
ees\2 g16.\1 a32\1 \bar |
bes8\1 bes\1 a\1 g\1 \bb g\1 f\2 ees\2 d\2 \bb r16 f\2 ees\2 d\2 r
bes'\1 a\1 g\1 r c\1 \bb
bes8.\1 a16\1 g16.\1 f32\2 ees16 d c f8 ees16 \bb d8. s r16 d \bb bes
ees d g[ f bes] g c a f \bb
g bes8 a g fis16 \bb g4 f8 d ees4 d8 s \bb
f16. g32 a16 f c'4 \bb bes8. bes16 a g8 fis16 \bb g8 g g ees16 c d
bes c d \bb
ees16. d32 c16 bes a g32\4 a \bb bes c d e f g a bes c16 bes a g \bb
f32 ees d c bes a g f ees d c bes\6
r16 c'' bes a g bes a g \bb f a g f e g f e \bb r bes' a g16. e32 fis
g fis16 g \bb g4 \bar ||
}
II = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\stemDown s1 d8\2 d\2 bes\3 bes\3 r16 c\3 ees8\2
d s s c bes a c d\3 c s s s c
d8. s s s bes c16 bes c a8 s16 c bes ees s d ees8 c16 d\3
ees d c8 d s s1
s4.. ees16 d8. d16 c bes a8 s16 ees' d c8 b16 c a\4 bes g8 bes16
s4. s2 s4.
s16 c d8 bes c a bes s4 d8 s s4 d
}
III = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\offset
\stemUp g8\4 g16\4 a\3 bes\3 g\4 bes8\3 g4\4 g\4 fis8\4 s s s g4
r16 g d'8 r16 f, s8 g r16 f s8 g16 f f8\4 bes g c a\4
g8. s s s s a16 g8. fis16 g8 s16 c a d g,8 s
s4 bes8 a g4 a c bes16. c32 d16 bes
a4 s g s g8 s s s s s
s4. s4 ees'16 d c bes a s s4
s2 s4 g8 a f c'16 bes a8 a b g4
}
IV = \context Voice \relative c' {
\set Staff.midiInstrument = harpsichord
\stemDown g,4\6 g8\6 g\6 g\6 g16\6 a\6 bes\6 g\6 bes\6 c\5 d8\5 d\5
ees\5 d16\5 bes\6 c8\5 c\5
g\6 r16 g\6 d'8 r16 c r16 g\6 d'8 r16 c r bes\6 s8 g'\4 ees c4
r16 g32\6 a\6 bes\6 c d16 ees c32 d ees f g16 a f32 g a bes c16 r
bes,32\6 c d ees f16\5 s c d8 ees16 c g' c, d bes\6 c8 f16 bes\4
ees, bes\6 ees f g bes,\6 c d g,16.\6 a32\6 bes16\6 g\6 d'16. ees32
f16 d c16. d32 ees16 c g8.\6 g16\6
d'8. d16 c16. d32 ees16 c g16.\6 a32\6 bes16\6 g\6 a\6 bes\6 c d g,\6
c b\6 c g8\6 c16 f\5 bes,\6 ees8 bes16\6
c d ees16. d32 c16 bes\6 g8\6 d' c16 d f g d8 g,4\6
a32\6 g\6 a16\6 g\6 d' ees8 c d bes\6 c a\6 bes\6 c d d g,4\6
}
\score {
\new TabStaff = guitar tab
\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3 -7 -12 -17)
%\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3)
%%\override TabStaff.Stem #'transparent = ##t
%%\override TabStaff.Dots #'transparent = ##t
\set TabStaff.tablatureFormat = #fret-letter-tablature-format
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .3)
\set Score.defaultBarType = empty
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'font-shape = #'italic
\context TabVoice = I {\I }
\context TabVoice = II {\II }
%\context TabVoice = III {\III \III}
%\context TabVoice = IV {\IV \IV}
\new TabStaff = guitar tab
\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(7 2 -3 -7 -12 -17)
%\set TabStaff.stringTunings = #'(-7 -12 -17)
%%\override TabStaff.Stem #'transparent = ##t
%%\override TabStaff.Dots #'transparent = ##t
\set TabStaff.tablatureFormat = #fret-letter-tablature-format
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(0 . .3)
\set Score.defaultBarType = empty
\override TabStaff.TabNoteHead #'font-shape = #'italic
%\context TabVoice = I {\I
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
I just think we need the choice. We have half-a-loaf of choice and are wondering how we can better work w/ the publishing world. And that means the publishing world will start to work w/ our own software. That means we have to define our formats, expectations, prices and protections and then we'll see what we and the market will bear. Over the last 20 centuries many simple distribution models have come and gone depending on the technology available. The next century _will_ pass too and I'm sure that we'll muddle through it. It's a shake-up. Some folks will make out like bandits; some won't. I'm just thinking that if we get our dialogs and tabs out here we'll get a better operating system going as we feel out the first few steps. Sean On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:43 AM, G. Crona wrote: Sean, you and I seem to be somewhat more in agreement than me and Rainer who seem to be antipodic in this matter. pls. read between the lines... - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Spring, aus dem, Rainer wrote: Hm, Me too, mmm. I don't mean to answer Rainer here but will offer my responses to the same questions to show my differing taste. Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on the music stand) I prefer portrait and I never play from the screen I prefer portrait but often play from the screen. One can get two portrait pages comfortably enough on a screen larger than 17. My 12 laptop screen really pushes the limit for two pages but may work for a single landscape page. Unfortunately, that's not a long piece of music. I have a 19 flat screen and two pages is still too small. There is a simple solution to the portrait / landscape disagreement though. Just flip the flatscreen! ;) I cant remember how many times I've laboured in making a single portrait sheet stand steadily on a music stand. (Easier viewing for the audience as well :) Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista) For me this is very difficult to read. I prefer the gridiron system. And I prefer ciphers only on a change. The raster system like the English mss. (eg. Board book) makes the page so busy w/ superfluous information that I find it distracting. I also find the gratuitous use of a rhythm sign at the beginning of each measure distracting. We totally agree on this Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.) Some people prefer numbering every fifth bar. I like it on every measure. When working w/ other musicians the 2 or 3 seconds everyone takes as they count from the first measure of that line (or 5th measure) is distracting. I know this clutters up the page but the brain quickly learns to disregard them. Yes, I know I stand virtually alone on this point. A good tab program should give you the choice. My distinction was between numbers or _no_ numbers. Each or each 5th bar is better than none at all as you may often encounter Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14) That is sort of difficult on paper :) 12-14 works for me. And for any kind of performance I use a bold variant. Visibility, visibility visibility! Anything smaller means that the music has to be so close as to lose any contact w/ the audience. What's the point of having a beautiful instrument if your audience only sees a standard issue music stand? Hear, hear! As a number cruncher, bold italics 12-14 works best for me Tablature numbers on lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) (debatable also for letters) I always wonder why people think tablature with a strike-through should be easier to read. Would you strike through everything in a book? Ditto! It's pointless to take a perfectly readable typeface and then run a stupid line through it! That stupid line is so thin, it really does not interfere with the visibility of the cipher, while instantly and unequivocally gives the right course. If I knew of a hassle free site where I could post an example, a GIF would say more than a thousand postings. Any suggestions? I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the raster rhythm signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to read font. One more personal thing I need is to seperate long passaggi into groups of 4 (or 6 if nec.). When flying along on consort music or Terzi that little dot below doesn't do
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: See Feynman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY Fascinating, captain. A prominent scientist offering two minutes of meaningless generalities without a single fact. Completely illogical. Yours truly. Mr. Spock -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Hi, New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had a wonderful lesson with Ed Martin last Thursday. I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000. I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night. What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization AND maleability, and I totally understand the need for both. With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs, the developers do their best to keep their file types proprietary. This allows them to earn a living from selling their programs. The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user to share files with colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same expensive program. Add to this that if I haven't upgraded (i.e. sent another ton of money to the developer) my Finale program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and sends me their newer version. It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability. I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this regard. I realize that for somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could be a time consuming thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could import, for example, a Fronimo file into Finale, or vice versa? Or at least be able to change the formatting of a file to suit your taste without having to start entering every character from the beginning? One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a MIDI file and it will notate it automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from scratch). This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo. Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other Lute Tablature developers could work together on sharing file types? All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that I have found so far is PDF. PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy. Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not cheap), which incorporates a printer called the Acrobat Distiller. One must use this feature in order to embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in their computers. Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook. (I actually got Spiders once!) One can make scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into a graphics program like CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good resolution the scan needs to be at least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200 dpi. Otherwise the end user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry. Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow their users to share files would be a benefit. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote: On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: See Feynman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY Fascinating, captain. A prominent scientist offering two minutes of meaningless generalities without a single fact. Completely illogical. Yours truly. Mr. Spock -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 9:34 AM Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Best material for extending a string.
I use Nylgut for my lutes for their longevity. It may not be recommended, but I wind all the spare string onto the peg, leaving very little over at the bridge. It has been my experience when a string has broken, either near the nut or the peg, there has been sufficient unused string to draw from the peg to tie at the bridge for a second lease of life. I have never had any success in splicing two bits of a broken string together. Nylgut is stretchy enough without having a knot to tighten as well! Nylon, nylgut and steel never sound right and have always come apart after a few minutes in my experience. But if it works for gut - go for it! Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:42 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best material for extending a string. Ah, leaders. I got to know these very well in my early lute days learning from Roger Harmon: A parsimonious master of careful string husbandry. This is another reason we NEVER throw out old strings, especially gut. Just find the closest in size to the broken string, bend them together, retune and voila da mano, Bob's your uncle. This also works for putting on new strings where they reach (or almost reach; this is an artform in itself) the nut but not enough to get a purchase on the peg. (Another trick is to wind the string on the peg while not going over the nut, ie going off to the side; you can get a just a few more cms that way. Soon as you get peg purchase, pull it onto the nut by hand) I've been doing this for 30 years now and slowly revising my bag of tricks to stay one step ahead of string prices. Here are a few notes: For a while I used rough hemp string for this but it's fallen out of favor as it looks like rats made a nest in the pegbox. But it works, doesn't stretch much and is cheap. Note that you can only use a hemp leader once --if it breaks it will have stressed some internal fibers more than others rendering it considerably weaker. Roger used to use standard kitchen string (it's real cheap!) but I didn't get the hang of it. Attaching any two gut strings together is a snap (meaning easy, :^). If either are nylgut it's a problem of trying to outsmart the slipperiness and its inherent weakness in tight bends. This is a little easier to do w/ NG strings larger than ~.50mm, ie, not a chanterelle or 4th 8ve --for those I bite the bullet and go with a whole string. If you do have to bend them together you can burn a small ball onto the end of the nylgut as well so it won't eventually slip off the bitter end. Prayer helps. Some further observations: I have never gotten a nylon leader to work w/ the chanterelle. NG leaders below ~.48mm are way too iffy. NG leaders in general are stretchy and difficult to work with. In a pinch fretgut works better. For a chanterelle try to use a slightly larger diameter leader than the string. For tying two gut thin strings together, I go w/ this method: Burn a ball onto both the string end and the leader end. Make loose overhand knot on the string end and pass the leader through it before pulling it tight as close to ball as possible. Tie another overhand knot on the leader also as close to the ball as possible. If you are breaking strings here there there is a good possibility that your problem is NOT in the string, ie DO NOT assume it's a string problem. So I can't emphasize enough: keep your nuts healthy! 1. No sharp edges, especially the very last part where it leaves the nut to the peg. If there is any kind of angle where the string leaves the final flat surface to go to the peg it will put undo tension on the underside of the string. If it is a NG it will use this to weaken the string and you will be reminded of this weakness about 1/8 of a turn before it reaches full tension. The certainty increases with the number of spare strings you posess. 2. Make sure the channel is round and the diameter is larger than the string. If it is good now DO NOT assume it will stay that way forever. It may deteriorate quicker for synthetic strings and metal wound strings and also if you change diameters. ymmv. 3. Lubrication helps immensely. Graphite may last a little longer than beeswax but beeswax is invisible. If, when you incrementally turn the peg, it shoots past the pitch you want then you need lube. Please, please, please, set your, your bandmates' and your audience's, minds at ease w/ this simple remedy. One more little trick: While grossly tuning up a new string, set it outside the channel and when it's a semitone or two away from designated pitch, put a little lube in the channel (and if beeswax, rub a little on the underside of the string just south of the nut) and then drop the string into the groove. If you are using your last NG or chanterelle, you may want to leave a little extra string beyond the bridge so that, if it breaks between the nut and the peg
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works well. For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also work pretty well. I remember using one that had Pony in the name (sorry to be so vague). On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had a wonderful lesson with Ed Martin last Thursday. I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000. I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night. What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization AND maleability, and I totally understand the need for both. With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs, the developers do their best to keep their file types proprietary. This allows them to earn a living from selling their programs. The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user to share files with colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same expensive program. Add to this that if I haven't upgraded (i.e. sent another ton of money to the developer) my Finale program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and sends me their newer version. It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability. I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this regard. I realize that for somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could be a time consuming thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could import, for example, a Fronimo file into Finale, or vice versa? Or at least be able to change the formatting of a file to suit your taste without having to start entering every character from the beginning? One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a MIDI file and it will notate it automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from scratch). This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo. Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other Lute Tablature developers could work together on sharing file types? All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that I have found so far is PDF. PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy. Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not cheap), which incorporates a printer called the Acrobat Distiller. One must use this feature in order to embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in their computers. Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook. (I actually got Spiders once!) One can make scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into a graphics program like CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good resolution the scan needs to be at least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200 dpi. Otherwise the end user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry. Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow their users to share files would be a benefit. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote: On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: See Feynman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY Fascinating, captain. A prominent scientist offering two minutes of meaningless generalities without a single fact. Completely illogical. Yours truly. Mr. Spock -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 9:34 AM Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
However, I would approach any nylon monofilament as a temporary stopgap only. They are slippery. They are also rather hard and actually can scar necks, especially at the knots. Best luck, Eugene At 08:05 AM 12/6/2008, vance wood wrote: Hi Omer: In a pinch you can substitute monofilament fishing line of appropriate gauge, 30 lbs test or better. - Original Message - From: Omer katzir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 3:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Fret replacement It's dry, really dry down here in Israel. and it's winter...or at least supposed to me. My gut frets are going bad, really bad. and until I'll get new ones, i need something to replace them. Now, I have guitar strings, i all sizes and shapes, I also have some old nylon lute strings. and i think i even have one A cello string, even computer cables. So...what to do? any recommendation? Thank you, Omer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
At 08:13 AM 12/6/2008, David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 2:05 PM, vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Omer: In a pinch you can substitute monofilament fishing line of appropriate gauge, 30 lbs test or better. Yes, I've done that and been there. Used nylon too, but beware of especially the carbon frets, they tend to cut into the neck of your lute. That's not nice next time you're about to embark on one of your temperamental shifts. Nylon and carbon frets also tend to eat into gut strings a bit more quickly than gut frets do. From my previous note, I obviously agree with you on all these points, David. However, I feel obliged to clarify that most ordinary monofilament fishing lines actually are nylon, the same basic formula as nylon musical instrument strings. You can also buy carbon fishing line; monofilament fishing lines labeled as fluorocarbon are of the same basic material marketed as carbon for musical instrument strings. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Hit Reply instead of Reply All... -Original Message- From: Guy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:02 PM To: 'Doc Rossi' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Word 2007 has a Save to PDF feature (introduced with that version, I think). Never tried it, though. Guy -Original Message- From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:39 PM To: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works well. For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also work pretty well. I remember using one that had Pony in the name (sorry to be so vague). On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had a wonderful lesson with Ed Martin last Thursday. I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000. I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night. What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization AND maleability, and I totally understand the need for both. With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs, the developers do their best to keep their file types proprietary. This allows them to earn a living from selling their programs. The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user to share files with colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same expensive program. Add to this that if I haven't upgraded (i.e. sent another ton of money to the developer) my Finale program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and sends me their newer version. It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability. I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this regard. I realize that for somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could be a time consuming thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could import, for example, a Fronimo file into Finale, or vice versa? Or at least be able to change the formatting of a file to suit your taste without having to start entering every character from the beginning? One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a MIDI file and it will notate it automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from scratch). This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo. Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other Lute Tablature developers could work together on sharing file types? All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that I have found so far is PDF. PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy. Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not cheap), which incorporates a printer called the Acrobat Distiller. One must use this feature in order to embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in their computers. Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook. (I actually got Spiders once!) One can make scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into a graphics program like CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good resolution the scan needs to be at least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200 dpi. Otherwise the end user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry. Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow their users to share files would be a benefit. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote: On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: See Feynman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY Fascinating, captain. A prominent scientist offering two minutes of meaningless generalities without a single fact. Completely illogical. Yours truly. Mr. Spock -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 9:34 AM Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
I switched to Mac from Windows, and could no longer use Fronimo(Bad Move! said Francesco, when I asked him how I could use Fronimo on my new computer!) Thanks to someone's tip, I did download free from the internet Cute PDF, which allowed me to transform Fronimo files into PDFs, and share them with myself on Macbetter than nothing! Betsy On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:03 PM, Guy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hit Reply instead of Reply All... -Original Message- From: Guy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:02 PM To: 'Doc Rossi' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines Word 2007 has a Save to PDF feature (introduced with that version, I think). Never tried it, though. Guy -Original Message- From: Doc Rossi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:39 PM To: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines For PDFs, Mac OSX has a built-in Print to PDF feature that works well. For Windows there are free virtual printers around that also work pretty well. I remember using one that had Pony in the name (sorry to be so vague). On Dec 8, 2008, at 9:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, New to ther Lute list, and just acquired a Renaissance lute and had a wonderful lesson with Ed Martin last Thursday. I have been typesetting and transcribing music in Finale since 2000. I just acquired and registered Fronimo last night. What I am seeing in this thread are pleas for BOTH standardization AND maleability, and I totally understand the need for both. With many high end graphics and typesetting / notation programs, the developers do their best to keep their file types proprietary. This allows them to earn a living from selling their programs. The down-side is that is limits the ability of the user to share files with colleagues, unless their colleagues have also bought the same expensive program. Add to this that if I haven't upgraded (i.e. sent another ton of money to the developer) my Finale program, I won't be able to open files from a colleague who has and sends me their newer version. It's a frustrating racket that thwarts maleability. I would like to see more cooperation amongst developers in this regard. I realize that for somebody writing a notation program in their spare time this could be a time consuming thing (nightmare?), but wouldn't it be nice if one could import, for example, a Fronimo file into Finale, or vice versa? Or at least be able to change the formatting of a file to suit your taste without having to start entering every character from the beginning? One feature in Finale that I find very useful is you can import a MIDI file and it will notate it automatically (errors, of course, but much quicker than starting from scratch). This is a feature I would like to see built into Fronimo. Finale probably wouldn't even talk to Francesco, but perhaps other Lute Tablature developers could work together on sharing file types? All that said, the best way to share printed music on the web that I have found so far is PDF. PDFs are not alterable, but they sure are handy. Unfortunately, to MAKE PDFs it usually requires that one has bought the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not cheap), which incorporates a printer called the Acrobat Distiller. One must use this feature in order to embed fonts like Fronimo Pavan, that other users may not have in their computers. Otherwise the end user sees gobbletygook. (I actually got Spiders once!) One can make scans into PDFs also (I do this by importing the scanned image into a graphics program like CorelDraw, then printing to the Distiller), but to get good resolution the scan needs to be at least 300 - 400 dpi and the Distiller PDF settings should be 1200 dpi. Otherwise the end user cannot enlarge it for their older eyes without it being blurry. Anyway, I think whatever software develpoers could do to allow their users to share files would be a benefit. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [5]http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 On 8 Dec 2008 at 9:50, howard posner wrote: On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Peter Nightingale wrote: See Feynman: [6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZcpTTjjXY Fascinating, captain. A prominent scientist offering two minutes of
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines
Portrait. New rhythm sign at a change or at a new line. I have some poorly edited publications in which a rhythm sign is redundantly introduced, and it just causes confusion. Consistency within a piece is perhaps the better rule: new sign only with a change of rhythm or line; or, all notes using a grid. There are times in fast passages of many notes per bar that the grid system visually organizes the notes so that the beat can be more easily maintained. M2CW Leonard Williams On 12/8/08 7:05 AM, G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, I agree with your preferences, especially about the diapassons. FWIW, here are some personal guidelines that have crystalized through the years, and this in relation to tablatures only, I'm not talking about grand staff or notation: Landscape view, to make the score easily readable on the screen (or steady on the music stand) Do not repeat rhytmic signs until they actually change value (much easier to read in all respects, also for prima-vista) Number bars at the beginning of each staff (easier to navigate the score - no numbering is hopeless when discussing a score via mail f. ex.) Don't cram the staffs. 6 on one sheet is maximum for my 12-14 point font in landscape view Adjust the tablature font size to your sight (some can read 8-10 point, I'm most comfortable with 12-14) Wherever possible, slightly reduce global symbol spacing to include those 2 or three bars on page 2 to avoid a page change Include composer name, date of publication and eventual name of publication, but also the library and shelf name for easier locating of the original facsimile if a manuscript. Allow room for pencil marks of ornaments etc. Tablature numbers on lines makes for quicker reading, (at least for me) (debatable also for letters) Make book editions instead of single pieces, for easier navigating and correcting, as well as global page settings Include a few (or many) lines of available information from New Grove or original source at beginning or end of book (not forgetting to name the contributors when available!) as well as info on personal settings, signs, etc. of publication And a note to our eminent programmers. Please, please, make works made in earlier versions of the program display *perfectly* on the newer version. IMO, don't publish a newer version until this is the case! This is now _not_ the case :( I am aware, that these are my own very personal settings. From what I've seen these past 15 or so years, not _one_ editor does it like any other. Each and everyone has at least some personal features. Some are easy to read, some are quite difficult, like those with the raster rhythm signs and also those, who try to emulate the original facsimile with some fancy but hard to read font. IMO the main guiding formula should always be to keep it as _simple_ and as _easily readable_ as possible, at the same time providing the most information possible. A tablature publication should _not_ try to be a work of art in that sense - it should mainly be an instrument to enable duplication and interpretation of the composers intentions. So I for one would prefer to throw those other unhelpful aesthetic considerations overboard. Modern (as in newly composed) scores will probably have to differ from these guidelines in some respects I've probably forgotten something, but WTH Best G. - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] tablature notation guidelines These days there are many software packages enabling everybody to produce tablatures. Many of us do, for free on our websites or in home-made inexpensive editions. Not all of these tablatures are as beautiful, or as easy to read. For the free or inexpensive editions that's fine with me; if the content is interesting I'll read from anything, or make my own version if it's too revolting. I'm glad I could find the music. But in looking at not so inexpensive editions from 'real' publishers, I am repeatedly struck by their far from perfect tablatures, and staff notation for that matter, as well. For staff notation, there are guidelines that help in making decisions on how to solve notational questions. The better engraving software will automatically follow these guidelines. For an example, have a look at http://mpa.org/music_notation/. These guidelines should present musicians with more or less standard sheet music. The benefits are obvious: it's fine to be able to read facsimiles, necessary for us, obviously, but when you're playing in an orchestra and are presented with your part on the day of the rehearsal or the concert, it's nice you don't have to spend time in deciphering what the editor meant. So, in stead of complaining about the poor output of such and such software, engraver or
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as nylon musical instrument strings. You can also buy carbon fishing line; monofilament fishing lines labeled as fluorocarbon are of the same basic material marketed as carbon for musical instrument strings. When I was still on carbon (been there done that too) I used to buy it in the fishing shop. All my friends did, or bought from me, as I bought it on 50m reels. :-) David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
At 06:02 PM 12/8/2008, David van Ooijen wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as nylon musical instrument strings. You can also buy carbon fishing line; monofilament fishing lines labeled as fluorocarbon are of the same basic material marketed as carbon for musical instrument strings. When I was still on carbon (been there done that too) I used to buy it in the fishing shop. All my friends did, or bought from me, as I bought it on 50m reels. :-) I still buy it in the fishing shop...but then I use it to catch fish! Mmmm... Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
Wouldn't it be great if gut trebles came in 50 meter reels? ed When I was still on carbon (been there done that too) I used to buy it in the fishing shop. All my friends did, or bought from me, as I bought it on 50m reels. :-) David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: 12/8/2008 9:38 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Fret replacement
50m reels. :-) och laddie, just think o the size of such sheep! -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible!
And therein lies the problem. I have a copy of Rainer's Holborne edition (which is an impressive and valuable piece of scholarship). I'd love to have it in digital form so I could tinker with format and what have you, but I fully understand Rainer's reluctance to release his sources, which is why I've never even asked. Open Source is an interesting and sometimes useful approach to things, but it has its limits. Guy -Original Message- From: adS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:20 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: tablature notation guidelines, impossible! Dana, as you know I am one of the people on the lute net who created a scholarly edition of lute music. I totally disagree. If you provide tablature in electronic format you completely loose control. The files will be distributed, modified, distributed again, appear with a different copyright notice, ... To create and distribute tablature in electronic format is fine. However, this will never replace printed editions. The only thing one could consider is pdf. pdf or ps is used by some (at least mathematical) on-line journals. For a scholarly edition you must produce a frozen version. However, I must say that I would never publish anything as a pdf file that took more than a few days. Rainer adS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I come late to this discussion, and can barely take the time today to pen this, but will try. Modern engraved music has evolved in several major publishing houses taking lifetimes of numerous senior editors who have interacted with the representatives of major orchestras thruout the world to settle issues such sa the ones I see up for debate. We dont have to make money witht he resulting decisions as they did, so we arent as likely to have that focus to keep us from endless debate. And, with todays technology, we have a better way to deal with it all. If the player has an electronic file specifying the tablature, and suitable software, she can cause to be displayed or printed whatever pleases. German tab becomes staff, french, or neapolitan tab as desired. Big print, small, wide, narrow, whatever. Data entry by us as a large committee wouldnt take so long; the resulting DB could be handled PD online, with minimal download fees supporting the website and perhaps an administrator (modestly). Current print publishers would have to find some hook to keep our interest in their editions, perhaps we will cease to need them and they can go on to other business. There is no 'everyman' answer to even the first question, which form - french, italian, german? Yes, most seem to prefer french, but enough prefer italian that you cant ignore that market. There is then other issues - what font to use, thru lines or between spaces, how large the type, seperate sparse flags or totally beamed. Petrucci-style floating flags or all flags above. If ornaments are to be printed, which set of signs are to be used? Alphabeto lurks in the wings if anyone thinks these issues can find any resolution. No, best way is to defer the decision to the enduser and provide an enabling technology. Maybe even a choice of technologys. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
