[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Amarilli
Greetings, Roland. I just dig out the old LP, and it states, The highly ornamented version sung on this record to the accompaniment of the viol, is from GB Lbm Edgerton MS 2871, pp.94-95. The popularity of this song in England is shown by its presence in several other MSS of the time. I hope this helps. ed At 12:53 PM 2/4/2010, Roland Hayes wrote: I am trying to find the source (ms) for Nigel Rogers's ornamented version on the cd (reissued) A Musical Banquet. I think the original album notes had this info but the cd notes are cut off (nice!!) Does anybody know? r -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Bohush manuscript?
Dear collective wisdom, I am looking for more information about the Bohush manuscript. In the 32 Easy Pieces for Baroque Lute, edited by Anthony Bailes for Tree Edition a number of pieces have been included from a Bohush manuscript, without any further detail. The Chaconne is beautiful. Any body out there knowing more about this manuscript? Thank you in advance to you all, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: facsimile prints of all vihuela books
Hail to y'all! I have it and to my knowledge there only was just the CD. There is one little nag though. The quality of the images is not very high. The instrumental pieces are in b/w. On the plus side the songs are produced as colour images (i.e the red vocal line in some vihuela books is clearly visible). Lex Op 4 feb 2010, om 05:26 heeft Franz Mechsner het volgende geschreven: Hi All, A book by Frank Koone on Renaissance Vihuela and Guitar includes facsimile prints of all vihuela books in black and white. It says there was a CD with colour facsimile prints available from Opera Tres. But on the website [1]www.operatres.com it says it is sold out there. Does anybody know a source where I could get these colour prints from? Franz I just found out the CD seems still available from Chanterelle. F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
alexander voka...@verizon.net schrieb: The second has to do with the universally accepted assumption that playing near the bridge with the thumb out produces a sharp tone ( Did they like mellow or sharp tone? The RH position of most baroque lute players on old paintings suggests the later.). Try it. You can guess what the results will be. Thumb out can only result in a smooth tone quality of the bass notes, even when the little finger rests on the bridge or behind it, because the point of attack of the thumb is rather close to the rose. Most 17th century music employs the index and middle fingers (not the ring finger), whose point of attack would with thumb out be in the middle between the tip of the thumb and where the tip of the pinky rests. Doesn't result in harsh tone quality either. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wound up Mace
I have followed this thread with great interest. Now that Playford gets into the discussion, I recently had a great experience. Dan Larson, lute builder and string maker, recently acquired a treasure - an original edition of Playford's 1664 book, in which the strings are mentioned. I recently held this beautiful book in mint condition, and read through some of it. Interestingly enough, Playford does not mention the strings at all; this statement is in the very last folio, where it is an advertisement from a merchant who happens to sell strings. In any event, there is not general agreement that the description in this advertisement confirms that wound strings were used. The statement describes wire twisted or gimped upon gut or silk, which does not necessarily describe our modern concept of a wound string. At 06:23 AM 2/4/2010, alexander wrote: O, my apologies, thinking Playford, writing Mace. His complaining voice just is so loud in my head... ar On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:52:19 + Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Mace doesn't mention wound strings at all. You may be thinking of the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the low octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too big (not necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. I know of no lute source which mentions wound strings. Best wishes, Martin alexander wrote: Mace in his comment regarding the new wire wound basses, dismissed their usefulness on the same basis, as, according to him, the currently available basses, on long lutes had too long a sustain already. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Wound up Mace
I kind of hate speaking without a reference, but i can not locate all the
string reference material, of which there was much assembled. However, i
remember rather well, that at Playford's time, and all around Mace at the time,
a common practice was to take an existing gut string and cover it with a wire
as needed. The practice was so commonly accepted, that i recall a few just
grab a wire and do it yourself references, as well as the string makers
themselves not doing the procedure, because it was considered so easy to do by
the end user... I recall it being argued by someone, that from the language it
was apparent that the practice was in use for as long as anyone could remember,
matter-of-factly. It certainly was the part of bow-string making, garment
string making and such, which would be strange to imagine being an isolated
technique. alexander r.
On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:10:48 -0600
Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote:
I have followed this thread with great interest.
Now that Playford gets into the discussion, I recently had a great
experience. Dan Larson, lute builder and string maker, recently
acquired a treasure - an original edition of Playford's 1664 book, in
which the strings are mentioned. I recently held this beautiful book
in mint condition, and read through some of it.
Interestingly enough, Playford does not mention the strings at
all; this statement is in the very last folio, where it is an
advertisement from a merchant who happens to sell strings. In any
event, there is not general agreement that the description in this
advertisement confirms that wound strings were used. The statement
describes wire twisted or gimped upon gut or silk, which does not
necessarily describe our modern concept of a wound string.
At 06:23 AM 2/4/2010, alexander wrote:
O, my apologies, thinking Playford, writing Mace. His complaining
voice just is so loud in my head... ar
On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:52:19 +
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
Mace doesn't mention wound strings at all. You may be thinking of
the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the low
octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too big (not
necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. I know of no
lute source which mentions wound strings.
Best wishes,
Martin
alexander wrote:
Mace in his comment regarding the new wire wound basses,
dismissed their usefulness on the same basis, as, according to him,
the currently available basses, on long lutes had too long a
sustain already.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com
voice: (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
Alexander, Well, I think this is just misunderstanding. What I was trying to do is to show that verbal descriptions of tone colour are subjective and can lead to misinterpretation. I purposly showed 2 extremes: mellow and sharp only to diferentiate general tone qualities. I don't think we have to do with a myth of sharp lute sound. On the contrary we have to do with myth of a sweet , full ,and mellow tone quality mentioned by some writers. We can't proove it because we don't have old strings, but I am afraid that comparing a lute played in proper (pinky on a bridge or behind) manner with the same lute played using modern technique (which is neither renaissance nor baroque), and then describing the tone characteristic would be very instructive. The only person that I know of using this technique is Toyoshiko Satoh. When I listen to his recordings (turning the volume up) I can hear that the quality of his tone is very different from what we are used to. Inspite of using a very low tension strings I can hear in the tone some kind of stiffness (kind of a sound not very far from a lute stop). And no wonder because even if your string is slack its elasticity drops down rapidly towards the bridge (giving a little bit more wooden quality to it - actually I never mentioned harsh tone). Nothing wrong with that! It's just different. So ,what I was saying is that all the descriptions of lute's sound are very subjective. Now, I don't know what Mace comment you were thinking off. If you meant Playford's advertissement I can't see where he mentions too long sustain of the strings. Here is the full citation: Advertisment (John Playford An introduction to the skill of music, 4th edition London 1664): There is a late invension of strings for the basses of viols and violins, or lutes which sound much better and louder then the common gut string, either under the bow or finger. It is small wire twisted or gimped upon a gut string or upon silk. I have made trial of both,but those upon silk do hold best and give as good a sound. The choise of these strings are to be sold at Mr. Richard Hunts Instrument-seller at the Lute in St. Pauls Alley near Pater noster Row. Finis Actually he was praising newly invented wire (gimped) strings which had much better sound quality then ordinary gut. As you see it looks like they were looking for new string material for because gut wasn't ideal and they liked stronger, louder tone with more sustain. Silk strings were mentioned by Terzi (1686) as well. As for roped silk Dowland's Gansar strings could be a candidate. Also silk strings with silver wire - so called Grotesky strings - were well received: Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretsky's invention ( 1659 ). All in all, describtions were and are subjective, but we have our own ears to asses if the string is good or not. Best Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: alexander voka...@verizon.net To: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:24 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics? If i may, just on two erroneous assumptions regarding the imagined sound quality from when Historical Correctness was the History Itself. One has to do with the idea of the lute basses having rather short sustain. Mersenne, who otherwise is an accepted authoritative source on the strings (+ more), claimed that bass strings on the lutes had sustain of several seconds. Currently possible only with the wound strings. Mace in his comment regarding the new wire wound basses, dismissed their usefulness on the same basis, as, according to him, the currently available basses, on long lutes had too long a sustain already. This is one of the points which, as i understand, keeps Mimmo Peruffo on searching for ever better answers then the current loaded gut offers. The second has to do with the universally accepted assumption that playing near the bridge with the thumb out produces a sharp tone ( Did they like mellow or sharp tone? The RH position of most baroque lute players on old paintings suggests the later.). This is just an assumption, as strange as it may be. Toyohiko Satoh demonstrates this on baroque lute. Then there is the case of this famous picture here: http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif The picture is of Dionisio Aguado, who according to his contemporaries hearing him play duets with Fernando Sor, at times had as deep and dignified sound, as Sor did, while playing WITH FINGERNAILS with his little finger firmly lodged behind the bridge. The critics, who otherwise were not noticed to be ignorant or unprofessional, on occasion compared his midrange sound to a cello! Of course then alternating with a
