[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __ From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert [1]seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke [3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld [4]dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop [5]robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner [6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
It wasn't just the Church - the secular justice was equally brutal. Ever seen anyone hung, drawn and quartered? Monica - Original Message - From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: theoj89...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc:
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Is there any evidence that the vihuela is really a Spanish invention or is it just Spanish for viola da mano? Maybe it is just another Italian thing... In that case Moors or not Moors is moot. Spanish people at the time may have been like everyone else: they prefer to think they are borrowing when they are actually stealing. And they did borrow the southern half of Italy around that time. Given the confusion between viola da mano and viola dell arco I wonder if in the taxonomy of instruments, lute did not equal round back versus viola equal flat back. It may have been that simple. Da Vinci improvised on the flat back if I recall, perhaps because it was more reminiscent of the antique lyra, so more cool... He was a bit of a snob. I have been gardening: what they sell here (California) as French thyme is not the right kind - if you want the French variety, actually buy what they sell as English thyme. Cultural misappropriations abound, as any Mexican who tastes a burrito in Los Angeles will testify. Alain On 05/06/2015 10:41 PM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: This is interesting evidence, but all it proves is that the vihuela experienced a great fashion in that period, which no one really doubts. The reasons for the vihuela’s popularity will probably always remain a matter for conjecture, but the idea that it was because of “Moorish associations” doesn’t really bear closer scrutiny, as the Christian Spanish (and other Europeans too) happily incorporated many Moorish elements in many different cultural areas, from language to cuisine, which is not surprising given the refinement and sophistication of Moorish civilization in Spain. Is there any evidence anywhere of cultural elements (not people but things) being rejected explicitly for their origins? Christian theologians such as Thomas of Aquinas even liberally used Moorish theology in is work. Joshua On 06 May 2015, at 23:53, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
On 07.05.2015 21:02, Susanne Herre wrote: Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? It should be in here, dear Susanne: http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/testVersion2/home/index.php?utm_expid=68026435-1.utkesif9QkKG0Mll18G2NQ.1DRIS_ID=MS408_001utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.be%2F Hartelijke groeten Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Sweet was the song
Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Jacob plays Ah Robin at the beginning of one or two episodes. The rest of the music was nondescript. MOnica - Original Message - From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com To: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 3:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
On 07.05.2015 21:02, Susanne Herre wrote: Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? It should be in here, dear Susanne: http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/testVersion2/home/index.php?utm_expid=68026435-1.utkesif9QkKG0Mll18G2NQ.1DRIS_ID=MS408_001utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.be%2F Hartelijke groeten Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
Dear Susanne, My Google-Fu says it's somewhere in the William Ballet Lute Book, which can be found in the library of Trinity College Dublin, a digital copy is here: http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=MS408_001 It is on page 76 (as numbered with pencil in the left upper corner), if you download the PDF it's on page 80 there. Best regards, Markus Am 07.05.2015 um 21:02 schrieb Susanne Herre: Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
Dear Bernd and Markus, Thank you a lot! What a complicated lute part ;-) ! Did he use a plectrum? ;-) Have a nice evening, Susanne Am 07.05.2015 um 21:20 schrieb Markus Johann Mühlbauer: Dear Susanne, My Google-Fu says it's somewhere in the William Ballet Lute Book, which can be found in the library of Trinity College Dublin, a digital copy is here: http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=MS408_001 It is on page 76 (as numbered with pencil in the left upper corner), if you download the PDF it's on page 80 there. Best regards, Markus Am 07.05.2015 um 21:02 schrieb Susanne Herre: Dear all, Does anyone know where to find the tablature of the song 'Sweet was the song the Virgin sung' (anon.)? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain 2, Italy 1 in extratime
On May 7, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. And why not, when the audience wouldn’t know the difference, and even smartalecky critics can't distinguish between history and fantasy? Four years ago, his annoyance with The Tudors fresh in his mind, Ron gave us a link to a review of Camelot, the Starz (at least that’s who aired it in these parts) series, by Sarah Dempster in The Guardian, who intoned: Two months after The Tudors staggered off on its 16th century pantomime cow, along clumps Camelot to remind us of the enduring appeal of the appallingly rendered historical epic.” Critics are as entitled to make fools of themselves, but I wonder why some editor didn't elbow her in the ribs and tell her that Camelot is no more “history than Lord of the Rings is. And no, I haven’t seen her review of Game of Thrones (which, BTW, while set in a nonexistent world, nonetheless features some authentic-looking-and-sounding Renaissance-period instruments, particularly in scenes just before a king meets a violent end.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain 2, Italy 1 in extratime
I don’t think anyone in the media, or the general public, knows the difference between fact and fiction. The thing is, though, they never did. Very shortly after the Big Bang, when I was a child, I remember seeing “King Richard and the Crusaders. You have to be pretty old to recognize these names, but how about Rex Harrison in blackface as Saladin and George Sanders as King Richard the Lionheart? LOL! They pretty much made it up as they went along, just as they do today. And how much historical truth was there to any of the “historical” Robin Hoods? And as for “real” history, I can think of three different accounts of the execution of Savonarola: hung by the neck over a bonfire, strangled first then burned, and just plain burned. And all three from books with footnotes! As for a sense of history,” how about Moulin Rouge for a period piece? Here’s another urban legend concerning the vihuela: I heard back in the day that Alonzo Mudarra would have played his Fantasia in the style of Ludovico the harpist using a campanela technique, as opposed to the way he wrote the piece down, because he didn’t want anybody else to discover how he managed the harp-like effect. Oh well, why labor to appreciate Machaut when you’ve got the Medieval Babes, right? David R On May 7, 2015, at 7:41 PM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On May 7, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. And why not, when the audience wouldn’t know the difference, and even smartalecky critics can't distinguish between history and fantasy? Four years ago, his annoyance with The Tudors fresh in his mind, Ron gave us a link to a review of Camelot, the Starz (at least that’s who aired it in these parts) series, by Sarah Dempster in The Guardian, who intoned: Two months after The Tudors staggered off on its 16th century pantomime cow, along clumps Camelot to remind us of the enduring appeal of the appallingly rendered historical epic.” Critics are as entitled to make fools of themselves, but I wonder why some editor didn't elbow her in the ribs and tell her that Camelot is no more “history than Lord of the Rings is. And no, I haven’t seen her review of Game of Thrones (which, BTW, while set in a nonexistent world, nonetheless features some authentic-looking-and-sounding Renaissance-period instruments, particularly in scenes just before a king meets a violent end.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Hi Antonio Yes - I read your dissertation which is why I am so knowlegible...Hope to read your book eventually. Monica - Original Message - From: Antonio Corona abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 10:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __ From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, A History of the Lute, p.221 Chapter VIII The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain: At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th. -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled Lutenist in 1999 and Vihuelist in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: Mark Seifert [1]seifertm...@att.net To: Ron Andrico [2]praelu...@hotmail.com; Christopher Wilke [3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Dan Winheld [4]dwinh...@lmi.net; Rob MacKillop [5]robmackil...@gmail.com; Howard Posner [6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; David Van Ooijen [7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the Moors (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his Terror of History course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date 1728 in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at
[LUTE] Re: Sweet was the song
On 2015-05-07 3:42 PM, Susanne Herre wrote: Thank you a lot! What a complicated lute part ;-) ! Did he use a plectrum? Here is a tablature I wrote of the accompanying parts of Sweet Was The Song: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53488562/Sweet%20was%20the%20song%20%28lute%29.pdf Excuse my poor handwritten tablature; I'm just starting to learn MuseScore. I can play this version, so it's pretty easy. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Mantel’s about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias… Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I don't think most historians would agree with you. Monica - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 1:04 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy My impression is that she had quite a look into her stuff before she started to pen it down. I may be wrong, of course, but chapters and verses from those who contradict. Mantel's being a novelist doesn't mean her writing is mere and nothing else but fiction. Mathias -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:46 PM To: Mathias Rösel Cc: Lutelist Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy The purely fictional - non-historical one. - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; ml man...@manololaguillo.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de wrote: Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the racism of the English Queen. It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! All the best Mark On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of criteria. Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. Monica briefly - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries. But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in
[LUTE] Edin Karamazov
Does anyone personally know and have a good relationship with the lutenist Edin Karamazov?A I would like to ask him something and if I had someone who could help me contact him, that would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Michael Grant -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Star Wars was historical fiction, too. It happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, remember? In all seriousness, the genre should really be called fictionalized history rather than historical fiction. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At May 7, 2015, 10:49:10 AM, Ron Andrico'praelu...@hotmail.com' wrote: Although I simply can't bear to read historical fiction, and haven't seen the televised version of Mantel's popular book, I have to say that trivial details like historical facts are often purged from any story based on historical drama in favor of popular appeal during the process of adapting for the screen. Donna read the book and found it diverting, but I simply feel cheated when I read something lacking footnotes. We slogged through most of the Tudors series (on discs from the library because we have no TV), and were so incensed over the general abuse of historical fact and the particular choice of music, that we put together a series of concerts just to right the terrible wrongs committed by the music director. We saw one small bit of the Borgias only because they used a recording by Ronn McFarlane for a scene - of course it was a piece from Attaingnant (I think) played in the background behind a scene from the 1480s, and the music can be heard faintly while Jeremy Irons is subjected to some rather embarrassing ablutions or examination before a group Vatican onlookers, all depicted as drooling thugs. We haven't seen the televised series based on Mantel's novel but I understand Jacob Heringman's playing is featured in one or more episode. Whatever the producers do to adapt historical fact to suit current public taste, at least we have to congratulate any lutenist who manages to penetrate the closed circle of Hollywood or television music directors, who seldom make tasteful choices let alone observe historical accuracy. RA Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 21:55:17 +0800 To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [3]edward.y...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mantels about as historical as The Tudors or The Borgias Edward C. Yong [4]edward.y...@gmail.com On 6 May 2015, at 7:04 pm, Mathias Roesel [5]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 2. javascript:return 3. javascript:return 4. javascript:return 5. javascript:return 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
