[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
If limited just to London was the pronunciation adopted court or educated middling class or that of the general hoi polloi? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 22:13:32 BST, jslute wrote: Dear All, The pronunciation in question is in the London area, circa 1600. Jim Stimson Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> Date: 6/7/19 2:24 PM (GMT-05:00) To: corun <[2]co...@medievalist.org> Cc: LuteNet list <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme Yes, but the question must be, dialect from where exactly? Regional dialects have always varied significantly and it is really a vain effort to think we can impose one true historical pronunciation upon the whole of the past. This is rather like the absurd notion among (non-Italian) singers that there is one correct pronunciation of historical Italian. My hypothesis is that the primary reason for war is because people just can't understand what other people are saying. RA __ From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of corun <[6]co...@medievalist.org> Sent: Friday, June 7, 2019 3:48 PM Cc: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme Prof. Crystal relies quite a lot on Ben Jonson's English Grammar. Applying that to Shakespeare (and his contemporaries) he has come up with a reasonable hypothesis as to the Early Modern English dialect of the 16th and 17th centuries. Regards, Craig > On June 7, 2019 at 11:23 AM Martyn Hodgson <[7]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Yes, this is a fairly common view - but I what's the reasoning and >evidence for it? >MH > >On Friday, 7 June 2019, 16:18:42 BST, Helen Atkinson ><[8]hjatkinso...@gmail.com> wrote: >Yes - from what I've learnt from Richard Rastall and others, it's >'keu-ind' and "weu-ind" ... a bit as they'd say it in the west country. >Helen >On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 14:35, jslute <[1][9]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >Dear Martyn and All, > According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something > like >"woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater > group >productions a couple of years ago. >Jim Stimson >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Original message >From: Martyn Hodgson <[2][10]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00) >To: howard posner <[3][11]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, LuteNet list ><[4][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Ed Durbrow > <[5][13]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme >I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but > which >with which. >For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of >'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' > ? >An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the > former - >but >do we/you know? >MH >On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow ><[6][14]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: >On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner ><[1][7][15]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> >wrote: >> >>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow ><[2][8][16]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >wrote: >>> >>> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde > rhyme. >> >> If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern > English (in >what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be > neither. >No I'm not asking that. >> For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets: >> >> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes
[LUTE] Re: You obviously haven't heard...
I was puzzled that the printers of Dowland's First booke of songes consistently spelled "sun" as "son" - in spite of rhymes that would indicate a -un sound to a modern reader. Spelling varies in that same book from one part - altus, tenor etc. - fairly frequently. But this seems to be a consistent typo - or an obliterated pun on words in modern editions? Sometimes the alphabet is a very deficient way of representing sounds - we use the same one in French and English ... - and it seems to work without rhyme or reason (sans rime ni raison). In spite of the best scholarship available. Alain On 6/7/19 6:04 PM, Timothy Swain wrote: You obviously have NOT heard of David Crystal's OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ORIGINAL SHAKESPEAREAN PRONUNCIATION published by Oxford in 2016 (the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare's death). A very respected scholar, his son has become an expert on Shakespeare. David has authored many texts, including ones in his own fields of study. As David says, "This dictionary has been over ten years in the making. I downloaded an electronic edition of the First Folio in December 2004, once it became apparent that the initiative of Shakespeare's Globe to present plays in original pronunciation (OP) was going (forward)..." You can see his son, Ben Crystal, wax eloquent on Shakespeare through several entries on YouTube. Ben Crystal is quite an accomplished scholar & a visiting scholar the world around, including our own USA. And the book is the first OP production, Original Pronunciation (which is NOT the never-achievement it has for so long presumed to be!). David Crystal is remarkable! I am tired of the incessant deluge of emails from some people that should know better. They reveal their ignorance of a vital subject. (May it be said that is does NOT apply only to Shakespeare!) More restraint is urged! From an old man (who hereby betrays his own considered silence). Timothy Swain -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] La Spiritata
Sorry guys - I know I promised not to open that Pandora's Box... ..but this is too good. I think speculation time is over. One of the oldest Sikh Ragas - Dhanasari/Dhanashree - is clearly the model for "La Spiritata" by Gabrieli. When you listen to this new mashup, there is no guessing. All motifs are clearly introduced in the Raga and developed in Gabrieli's piece. Also, the rhythm changes in La Spiritata correspond to those in the Sikh Hymn. If you don't like it, please refrain from opening a tiresome discussion. All others are invited to enjoy. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-prof-surinder-singh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] You obviously haven't heard...
You obviously have NOT heard of David Crystal's OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ORIGINAL SHAKESPEAREAN PRONUNCIATION published by Oxford in 2016 (the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare's death). A very respected scholar, his son has become an expert on Shakespeare. David has authored many texts, including ones in his own fields of study. As David says, "This dictionary has been over ten years in the making. I downloaded an electronic edition of the First Folio in December 2004, once it became apparent that the initiative of Shakespeare's Globe to present plays in original pronunciation (OP) was going (forward)..." You can see his son, Ben Crystal, wax eloquent on Shakespeare through several entries on YouTube. Ben Crystal is quite an accomplished scholar & a visiting scholar the world around, including our own USA. And the book is the first OP production, Original Pronunciation (which is NOT the never-achievement it has for so long presumed to be!). David Crystal is remarkable! I am tired of the incessant deluge of emails from some people that should know better. They reveal their ignorance of a vital subject. (May it be said that is does NOT apply only to Shakespeare!) More restraint is urged! From an old man (who hereby betrays his own considered silence). Timothy Swain -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
The clock can't run if its winded. But you got to wind it to make it run. On 6/7/2019 3:12 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: And then, of course, you've got the complication of wind (moving air) or "wind the clock". Leonard To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
And then, of course, you've got the complication of wind (moving air) or "wind the clock". Leonard -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson To: howard posner ; LuteNet list ; Ed Durbrow ; jslute Sent: Fri, Jun 7, 2019 9:42 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme Hmmm - so was 'find' pronounced 'foind' then? and 'mind' as 'moind'? Perhaps the picture is not as straightforward and clear cut as this? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 14:31:35 BST, jslute <[1]jsl...@verizon.net> wrote: Dear Martyn and All, According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something like "woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater group productions a couple of years ago. Jim Stimson Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00) To: howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, LuteNet list <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Ed Durbrow <[5]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but which with which. For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of 'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' ? An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the former - but do we/you know? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow <[6]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner <[1][7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow <[2][8]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: >> >> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme. > > If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be neither. No I'm not asking that. > For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets: > > Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind. That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard. Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough. Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such information. To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:[11]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:jsl...@verizon.net 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 6. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 8. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 11. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Dear All,
The pronunciation in question is in the London area, circa 1600.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: Ron Andrico
Date: 6/7/19 2:24 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: corun
Cc: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Yes, but the question must be, dialect from where exactly? Regional
dialects have always varied significantly and it is really a vain
effort to think we can impose one true historical pronunciation upon
the whole of the past. This is rather like the absurd notion among
(non-Italian) singers that there is one correct pronunciation of
historical Italian. My hypothesis is that the primary reason for
war
is because people just can't understand what other people are
saying.
RA
__
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on
behalf
of corun
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2019 3:48 PM
Cc: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Prof. Crystal relies quite a lot on Ben Jonson's English Grammar.
Applying that to Shakespeare (and his contemporaries) he has come up
with a reasonable hypothesis as to the Early Modern English dialect
of
the 16th and 17th centuries.
Regards,
Craig
> On June 7, 2019 at 11:23 AM Martyn Hodgson
wrote:
>
>
>Yes, this is a fairly common view - but I what's the reasoning
and
>evidence for it?
>MH
>
>On Friday, 7 June 2019, 16:18:42 BST, Helen Atkinson
> wrote:
>Yes - from what I've learnt from Richard Rastall and others,
it's
>'keu-ind' and "weu-ind" ... a bit as they'd say it in the west
country.
>Helen
>On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 14:35, jslute
<[1]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
wrote:
>
> Dear Martyn and All,
> According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced
something
> like
> "woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my
theater
> group
> productions a couple of years ago.
> Jim Stimson
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> Original message
> From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, LuteNet
list
> <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Ed Durbrow
> <[5]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
>I suppose the question is not so much which words
rhymed,
but
> which
>with which.
>For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern
pronunciation of
>'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern
'wind'
> ?
>An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest
the
> former -
> but
>do we/you know?
>MH
>On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow
><[6]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote:
>On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner
> <[1][7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow
> <[2][8]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
>wrote:
>>>
>>> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and
kinde
> rhyme.
>>
>> If you're asking which word is pronounced as in
modern
> English (in
>what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may
be
> neither.
>No I'm not asking that.
>> For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets:
>>
>> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find
and
> mind.
>That is the information I was looking for. Thank you
Howard.
>Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good
enough.
>Still wondering if there is an online resource to find
such
>information.
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>
[3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>2. mailto:[11]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
>3.
[12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>--
>
> Re
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
> On Jun 7, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > Yes, but the question must be, dialect from where exactly? Regional > dialects have always varied significantly and it is really a vain > effort to think we can impose one true historical pronunciation upon > the whole of the past. This is rather like the absurd notion among > (non-Italian) singers that there is one correct pronunciation of > historical Italian. I think London is assumed. Whether there was only one London pronunciation in 1600 is another story. > My hypothesis is that the primary reason for war > is because people just can't understand what other people are saying. This would be the Anti-Douglas Adams Hypothesis, I suppose: "The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish. Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NONexistence of God. The argument goes like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.' `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic. `Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing. Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, "Well, That about Wraps It Up for God." Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation." To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Prof. Crystal relies quite a lot on Ben Jonson's English Grammar. Applying that to Shakespeare (and his contemporaries) he has come up with a reasonable hypothesis as to the Early Modern English dialect of the 16th and 17th centuries. Regards, Craig > On June 7, 2019 at 11:23 AM Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > >Yes, this is a fairly common view - but I what's the reasoning and >evidence for it? >MH > >On Friday, 7 June 2019, 16:18:42 BST, Helen Atkinson > wrote: >Yes - from what I've learnt from Richard Rastall and others, it's >'keu-ind' and "weu-ind" ... a bit as they'd say it in the west country. >Helen >On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 14:35, jslute <[1]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Dear Martyn and All, > According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something > like > "woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater > group > productions a couple of years ago. > Jim Stimson > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > Original message > From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, LuteNet list > <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Ed Durbrow > <[5]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme >I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but > which >with which. >For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of >'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' > ? >An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the > former - > but >do we/you know? >MH >On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow ><[6]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: >On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner > <[1][7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> >wrote: >> >>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow > <[2][8]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> >wrote: >>> >>> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde > rhyme. >> >> If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern > English (in >what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be > neither. >No I'm not asking that. >> For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets: >> >> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and > mind. >That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard. >Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough. >Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such >information. >To get on or off this list see list information at >[3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >-- > References >1. mailto:[10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com >2. mailto:[11]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >3. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu >2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu >3. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com >4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >5. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >6. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com >8. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 10. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 11. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Yes, this is a fairly common view - but I what's the reasoning and evidence for it? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 16:18:42 BST, Helen Atkinson wrote: Yes - from what I've learnt from Richard Rastall and others, it's 'keu-ind' and "weu-ind" ... a bit as they'd say it in the west country. Helen On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 14:35, jslute <[1]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Dear Martyn and All, According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something like "woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater group productions a couple of years ago. Jim Stimson Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00) To: howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, LuteNet list <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Ed Durbrow <[5]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but which with which. For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of 'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' ? An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the former - but do we/you know? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow <[6]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner <[1][7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow <[2][8]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: >> >> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme. > > If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be neither. No I'm not asking that. > For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets: > > Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind. That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard. Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough. Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such information. To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:[11]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 6. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 8. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 11. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Hmmm - so was 'find' pronounced 'foind' then? and 'mind' as 'moind'?
Perhaps the picture is not as straightforward and clear cut as this?
MH
On Friday, 7 June 2019, 14:31:35 BST, jslute
wrote:
Dear Martyn and All,
According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something like
"woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater group
productions a couple of years ago.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: Martyn Hodgson
Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: howard posner , LuteNet list
, Ed Durbrow
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but which
with which.
For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of
'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' ?
An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the former -
but
do we/you know?
MH
On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow
wrote:
On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner
<[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
wrote:
>
>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow
<[2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
wrote:
>>
>> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme.
>
> If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in
what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be neither.
No I'm not asking that.
> For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets:
>
> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind.
That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard.
Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough.
Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such
information.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
Dear Martyn and All,
According to the Crystals, "wind" would be pronounced something like
"woind" or "woynd." Ben Crystal helped with one of my theater group
productions a couple of years ago.
Jim Stimson
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: Martyn Hodgson
Date: 6/7/19 3:30 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: howard posner , LuteNet list
, Ed Durbrow
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but which
with which.
For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of
'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' ?
An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the former -
but
do we/you know?
MH
On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow
wrote:
On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner
<[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
wrote:
>
>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow
<[2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
wrote:
>>
>> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme.
>
> If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in
what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be neither.
No I'm not asking that.
> For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets:
>
> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind.
That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard.
Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough.
Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such
information.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
There is no online resource that I am aware of. However Prof. Crystal is quite accessible and if you email him and lines you curious about, or even just a couple of words, he will probably be quite happy to respond. Often on Shakespearean works, from monologues to entire plays, he will send a flat recording of the pronunciations. He has done this for productions I have been in that we did entirely in OP. Regards, Craig > On June 6, 2019 at 7:27 PM Ed Durbrow wrote: > > > On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:15 AM, Craig wrote: > > > The thing with Early Modern English rhyme is that it doesn't match modern > > English. You should look at the work being done by Professor David Crystal > > on Shakespeare's Original Pronunciation. > > Yes, I know that and know about the Crystals’ work. I was asking if there is > an online resource for Early Modern English rhyme. > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Instrument Buzz
I would say the click almost certainly indicates a loose bar. You can indeed get buzzes from all sorts of places - strings touching the soundboard behind the bridge, nut grooves which are not quite right, strings touching each other in the pegbox, even (as you suggest) a slightly unglued piece of paper under the rose (by the way, it is normal to leave the paper on) - but the only thing which will give you a click is a bar which has come unglued at the end. The click is the sound of the bar moving against the rib, and the buzz comes from the place where the bar is starting to part company from the soundboard and is therefore not in contact but very close. I hope that helps, Martin On 07/06/2019 04:04, Edward C. Yong wrote: Hi Matthew, *slight* click when pressing on the soundboard around the 9 o’clock about an inch from the edge of the rose. Our humidity here is usually in the upper 80s or even 90s! Best, Edward On 21 May 2019, at 1:22 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote: Sounds like it could be a loose bar or maybe an issue with the rose. Try holding the instrument with your fingers on the underside and with your thumb go round the edge of the soundboard applying a LITTLE pressure to see whether there are any noises of the soundboard moving against a bar (like a little click probably). You can also tap lightly on different areas of the top with the tip of your middle finger to see if there are any unwelcome noises. Obviously do this as gently as possible. Have you checked on the relative humidity? If you have a concert coming up and you think there is a loose bar, make sure the relative humidity is at least 50% (but no more than 65%) and this might resolve the issue temporarily. Best, Matthew On May 20, 2019, at 18:01, "Edward C. Yong" wrote: Hi everyone, A bit of buzz is driving me crazy. I have a renaissance guitar and there’s a buzz that starts with the plucked note and dies down quite quickly. I’ve checked the bridge for any loose bits of string - nothing. I’ve checked the pegbox/peghead for loose buzzy strings - nothing. No possibility of frets being too high and buzzing, as the buzzing happens at all notes at all positions. I’m hoping it’s not something beneath the soundboard that’s loose and causing the buzz. It doesn’t buzz when the instrument is flat, with the rose facing up. It buzzes when the instrument is in a playing position - with the rose facing sideways. It buzzes with the rose facing down. I’m on the verge of having this sent to the nearest luthier, but have a performance coming up. I just hope the audience won’t be able to hear the subtle buzz, as we’re not being amplified… Best, Edward To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme
I suppose the question is not so much which words rhymed, but which with which. For example was 'wind' rhymed with the modern pronunciation of 'find/mind' - or did 'mind/find' rhyme with the modern 'wind' ? An early spelling of 'winde' and 'kinde' might suggest the former - but do we/you know? MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:10:03 BST, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow <[2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: >> >> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme. > > If you're asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in what accent? Australia? Mississippi?) the answer may be neither. No I'm not asking that. > For what it's worth, in Shakespeare's sonnets: > > Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind. That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard. Campion was a contemporary of Shakespeare, so good enough. Still wondering if there is an online resource to find such information. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Instrument Buzz
You ask: 'Is it common for makers to keep that paper stencil/pattern on the instrument?' For extant original instruments the answer is yes. MH On Friday, 7 June 2019, 03:11:32 BST, Edward C. Yong wrote: Hi Daniel, The buzz has always been there as long as I've had the instrument. I've noticed the maker didn't remove the paper stencil(?) after carving out the rosette and closing the instrument, so the paper is still glued to the underside of the rosette. I'm wondering if that might be contributing to the buzz. Is it common for makers to keep that paper stencil/pattern on the instrument? Best, Edward > On 21 May 2019, at 7:52 AM, Daniel Heiman <[1]heiman.dan...@juno.com> wrote: > > Edward: > > When did you start to notice the buzz? > Was it always present as long as you have owned the instrument? > Did it appear suddenly out of nowhere? > Have you changed a string lately, and that is when the buzz started? > > Daniel > > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 12:22 PM > To: Edward C. Yong <[4]edward.y...@gmail.com> > Cc: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Instrument Buzz > > Sounds like it could be a loose bar or maybe an issue with the rose. Try holding the instrument with your fingers on the underside and with your thumb go round the edge of the soundboard applying a LITTLE pressure to see whether there are any noises of the soundboard moving against a bar (like a little click probably). You can also tap lightly on different areas of the top with the tip of your middle finger to see if there are any unwelcome noises. Obviously do this as gently as possible. > Have you checked on the relative humidity? If you have a concert coming up and you think there is a loose bar, make sure the relative humidity is at least 50% (but no more than 65%) and this might resolve the issue temporarily. > Best, > Matthew > > > >> On May 20, 2019, at 18:01, "Edward C. Yong" <[6]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> A bit of buzz is driving me crazy. I have a renaissance guitar and there's a buzz that starts with the plucked note and dies down quite quickly. >> >> I've checked the bridge for any loose bits of string - nothing. >> >> I've checked the pegbox/peghead for loose buzzy strings - nothing. >> >> No possibility of frets being too high and buzzing, as the buzzing happens at all notes at all positions. >> >> I'm hoping it's not something beneath the soundboard that's loose and causing the buzz. >> >> It doesn't buzz when the instrument is flat, with the rose facing up. It buzzes when the instrument is in a playing position - with the rose facing sideways. It buzzes with the rose facing down. >> >> I'm on the verge of having this sent to the nearest luthier, but have >> a performance coming up. I just hope the audience won't be able to >> hear the subtle buzz, as we're not being amplified⦠>> >> Best, >> >> Edward >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > -- References 1. mailto:heiman.dan...@juno.com 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
