[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
Sounds the same ... Could be said of any music genre that somebody is not familiar with or doesn't appreciate. I have friends in a wonderful old-time fiddle/bluegrass group from Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN called "The Buffalo Gals". In one of their numbers they start playing "Skip To My Lou", while singing, "All these fiddle tunes sound the same, All these fiddle tunes sound the same, All these fiddle tunes sound the same, Same, same, same ... " Tom On 15 Jul 2019 at 16:35, howard posner wrote: > > On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > > > I would posit that the father has a much higher probability > > of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or > > certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? > > I couldn´t tell you. First, you haven´t defined "pop music" by either genre > or time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven´t listened to enough of > it to form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a > judgment, I would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would > therefore not think it all sounded the ame. > > BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in > pop music, the same is true of, say, Mozart´ symphonies (Mozart scholars talk > about "filler passages" that are interchangeable from one to another) and > Handel´s operas. It doesn´t they aren´t good. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
I forgot how diacritical marks get garbled on this list. The sense was: "passamezzo (or passemezzo), masculine noun, [an alteration of pass'e mezzo, that is a step [passo] and a half [e mezzo]." -Original Message- From: Alain Veylit Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 7:41 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar) Don't anyone dare calling a 500 bar passomezzo "filler" music ... It was more properly called "staircase" music (passomezzo in Italian means: "mind your step"). It took a long time to go down from upstairs to the ballroom with all the heavy dresses and hats and swords and so forth, hence the (very) long music variations. And they did not have elevators in those days to pop out of. Alain On 7/15/19 4:35 PM, howard posner wrote: On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? I couldn???t tell you. First, you haven???t defined ???pop music??? by either genre or time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven???t listened to enough of it to form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not think it all sounded the same. BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop music, the same is true of, say, Mozart??? symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about ???filler passages??? that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel???s operas. It doesn???t they aren???t good. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
From Trecani: passam??o (o passem??o) s. m. [alterazione di pass???e mezzo, cio?? ??un passo e mezzo passo??]. -Original Message- From: Alain Veylit Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 7:41 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar) Don't anyone dare calling a 500 bar passomezzo "filler" music ... It was more properly called "staircase" music (passomezzo in Italian means: "mind your step"). It took a long time to go down from upstairs to the ballroom with all the heavy dresses and hats and swords and so forth, hence the (very) long music variations. And they did not have elevators in those days to pop out of. Alain On 7/15/19 4:35 PM, howard posner wrote: On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? I couldn???t tell you. First, you haven???t defined ???pop music??? by either genre or time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven???t listened to enough of it to form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not think it all sounded the same. BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop music, the same is true of, say, Mozart??? symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about ???filler passages??? that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel???s operas. It doesn???t they aren???t good. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
Don't anyone dare calling a 500 bar passomezzo "filler" music ... It was more properly called "staircase" music (passomezzo in Italian means: "mind your step"). It took a long time to go down from upstairs to the ballroom with all the heavy dresses and hats and swords and so forth, hence the (very) long music variations. And they did not have elevators in those days to pop out of. Alain On 7/15/19 4:35 PM, howard posner wrote: On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? I couldn’t tell you. First, you haven’t defined “pop music” by either genre or time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven’t listened to enough of it to form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not think it all sounded the same. BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop music, the same is true of, say, Mozart’ symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about “filler passages” that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel’s operas. It doesn’t they aren’t good. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
> On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > I would posit that the father has a much higher probability > of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or > certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? I couldn’t tell you. First, you haven’t defined “pop music” by either genre or time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven’t listened to enough of it to form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not think it all sounded the same. BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop music, the same is true of, say, Mozart’ symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about “filler passages” that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel’s operas. It doesn’t they aren’t good. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
Howard wrote: > On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: > >> My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell >> her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? > > Ooh, easy one: > > You’re both wrong. You’re both making sweeping categorical > statements based on insufficient information. > Correct. All solo lute music -does- sound the same to someone not knowledgable in lute music; it is simply the sound of one lute plunking. But it is not the sound of a 19th C classical orchestra. Metal all sounds the same until you realise there are dozens of sub-genres. And Metal, as a group, is completely sonically very different from, say, hip-hop, soul, funk, trance, etc.. The easy out is simply to agree with one's teenage daughter. It, in my experience, saves much grief .. m. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
Notes are measurable criteria... It depends on your measuring equipment if something can be said about similarity. On 15.07.19 18:41, Christopher Stetson wrote: In my opinion the problem would be coming up with measurable criteria for "sounds the same". Best, and keep playing (wherever you think it came from), Chris. On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:48 AM <[1]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Given the book "The Song Machine: Inside the Hit Factory", by John Seabrook, I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? -Original Message- From: howard posner <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2019 10:38 am Subject: [LUTE] All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar) On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: > My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell > her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? Ooh, easy one: You're both wrong. You're both making sweeping categorical statements based on insufficient information. You, Ph.D., in particular, should know better than to characterize "all pop music" without first listening to all pop music. To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
In my opinion the problem would be coming up with measurable criteria for "sounds the same". Best, and keep playing (wherever you think it came from), Chris. On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:48 AM <[1]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Given the book "The Song Machine: Inside the Hit Factory", by John Seabrook, I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? -Original Message- From: howard posner <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2019 10:38 am Subject: [LUTE] All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar) On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: > My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell > her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? Ooh, easy one: You're both wrong. You're both making sweeping categorical statements based on insufficient information. You, Ph.D., in particular, should know better than to characterize "all pop music" without first listening to all pop music. To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
Given the book "The Song Machine: Inside the Hit Factory", by John Seabrook, I would posit that the father has a much higher probability of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no? -Original Message- From: howard posner To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jul 15, 2019 10:38 am Subject: [LUTE] All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar) On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: > My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell > her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? Ooh, easy one: You're both wrong. You're both making sweeping categorical statements based on insufficient information. You, Ph.D., in particular, should know better than to characterize "all pop music" without first listening to all pop music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)
On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: > My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell > her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? Ooh, easy one: You’re both wrong. You’re both making sweeping categorical statements based on insufficient information. You, Ph.D., in particular, should know better than to characterize “all pop music” without first listening to all pop music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
You might also want to try this: [1]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/pietro-lappi-canzon-la-ne grona-jaijaivanti-manmohana-bade-jhoote On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. On Jul 13, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: I guess period documentation is out of the question for the moment. Though I find it very odd that the best match can be found in the music of Giovanni Gabrieli. His music or the process of composition is not really explained with the theorists. That is why one had to study with him personally. How he really taught his methods remains a mystery. But obviously, this sparked whole new schools all over Europe. The question is: did musicians get information about music in India, how was it transferred? I would love to dig into the archives of Venice, Florence etc. concerning trade agreements, embassies etc. I have no funds, I'll leave it to people compelled by the musical evidence. Indian Music is also taught only to disciples. This is still the case today, and the music has been preserved for 500 years and more. (Dagar family schools for example) We have the rare opportunity to study this music and learn something about Early Music this way, for example how Musica Ficta rules are established, or general things like tempi and rhythm. Even if it just heightens the senses and awareness of rhythmic cycles and hidden ostinato models. From 1600 onwards, it is much easier to find clear matches with Indian music. Logically this means something has changed *towards* it. The music is almost always of Venetian School heritage (Valentini, Bertali etc.), basically what one finds in Partiturbuch Ludwig and similar collections. I recently found someone from South India who is very good at suggesting Ragas for European Music. Some pieces just ring the bell instantly, for example this one: [3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube. com_watch-3Fv-3DfLnp-2D1lgc44&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=Ijk ZZqW7jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4e8&s=gyL6FGO2ToegrkSDCJjjGi4J3 BM9j_oZzM_7UP1sK9E&e= � Raga Keeravani/Kirwani - a model set in the harmonic minor scale. But it is not the scale, but special phrases that make a Raga. In the Sonata you can hear quasi-glissandi (though written as discrete chromatic notes), which the musicians happily accept. It is not "sounds similar to Kirwani", it really is the exact structure and approach of the notes. Valentini gives it every polyphonic treatment possible within the boundaries of the model. When someone from India tells me that this is an exact and correct representation of the Raga, I'm inclined to believe him. Anyway, I will dig deeper and maybe find more convincing examples. On 13.07.19 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote: Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. �No musician generates music without any reference to other music. � �Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. �Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old �Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similaritiesâeven if granted to be strongâconstitute exciting discoveries. �. . . yet again. �Without explicit �period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty �generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [5] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musician has probably heard and loved it. Also this one lifted from Bruckner's 5th: [7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube. com_watch-3Fv-3D0J2QdDbelmY&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN 4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=IjkZZ qW7jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4e8&s=XXmite3gqITctTXnzOo9FpLQoDk YFZKt0MS4sW6WhD4&e= � On 13.07.19 12:37, Daniel Shoskes wrote: [8]https://u
[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar
I recommend listening to these examples: The first one shows very clearly how the rhythms are developed within the cycle. Note the corresponding rhythm sections. [1]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/floriano-canale-canzona-l a-balzana-a-8-eri-jaane-na-doongi-kamodnirali-kartik If you ever wondered about Canzona rhythms: [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/gioseffo-guami-canzon-vig esimaquarta-raga-bhimpalasi-kishori-amonkar This one speaks for itself: [3]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-canzon- quarta-a-4-raga-chhayanat-pt-ulhas-kashalkar On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote: My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right? A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. On Jul 13, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: I guess period documentation is out of the question for the moment. Though I find it very odd that the best match can be found in the music of Giovanni Gabrieli. His music or the process of composition is not really explained with the theorists. That is why one had to study with him personally. How he really taught his methods remains a mystery. But obviously, this sparked whole new schools all over Europe. The question is: did musicians get information about music in India, how was it transferred? I would love to dig into the archives of Venice, Florence etc. concerning trade agreements, embassies etc. I have no funds, I'll leave it to people compelled by the musical evidence. Indian Music is also taught only to disciples. This is still the case today, and the music has been preserved for 500 years and more. (Dagar family schools for example) We have the rare opportunity to study this music and learn something about Early Music this way, for example how Musica Ficta rules are established, or general things like tempi and rhythm. Even if it just heightens the senses and awareness of rhythmic cycles and hidden ostinato models. From 1600 onwards, it is much easier to find clear matches with Indian music. Logically this means something has changed *towards* it. The music is almost always of Venetian School heritage (Valentini, Bertali etc.), basically what one finds in Partiturbuch Ludwig and similar collections. I recently found someone from South India who is very good at suggesting Ragas for European Music. Some pieces just ring the bell instantly, for example this one: [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube. com_watch-3Fv-3DfLnp-2D1lgc44&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=Ijk ZZqW7jnnsWIdAvEMkLVl2zyq3-1pJFfX63F5N4e8&s=gyL6FGO2ToegrkSDCJjjGi4J3 BM9j_oZzM_7UP1sK9E&e= � Raga Keeravani/Kirwani - a model set in the harmonic minor scale. But it is not the scale, but special phrases that make a Raga. In the Sonata you can hear quasi-glissandi (though written as discrete chromatic notes), which the musicians happily accept. It is not "sounds similar to Kirwani", it really is the exact structure and approach of the notes. Valentini gives it every polyphonic treatment possible within the boundaries of the model. When someone from India tells me that this is an exact and correct representation of the Raga, I'm inclined to believe him. Anyway, I will dig deeper and maybe find more convincing examples. On 13.07.19 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote: Exactly, which is exactly why these "interesting new discoveries" aren't necessarily. �No musician generates music without any reference to other music. � �Audible similarities are to be expected, especially given the universal nature of physical acoustics. �Now, finding a collection of ca. 1600 Sikh music in an old �Venetian library, that *would* be interesting. I intend no offense, but I don't see why these similaritiesâeven if granted to be strongâconstitute exciting discoveries. �. . . yet again. �Without explicit �period documentation, these assertions read to me as a form of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" (perhaps specifically ignoring a common cause) or fallacious faulty �generalization. Eugene -Original Message- From: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [7] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 8:12 AM To: [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar This is no coincidence. The musicians have classical education. Rite of Spring is the Pachelbel Canon of the 20th century and every rock musi
[LUTE] INTO THE SUNSET, a Composition For Baroque Gitar
Stuart Walsh plays 'Into The Sunset' [1]https://youtu.be/3MAjUP3G08c With kind regards, Met vriendelijke groeten, Bien cordialement, Gilbert Isbin [2]www.gilbertisbin.com [3]gilbert.is...@gmail.com -- References 1. https://youtu.be/3MAjUP3G08c 2. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/ 3. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
