[LUTE] Re: String conversion math question
You can indeed use simple multiplication factors. They are: 0.92 for gut / nylgut, 0.78 for fluor-carbon "Alliance". So, 1mm nylon string is equivalent 0.92mm gut / nylgut or 0.78mm fluor-carbon. What is important to take into account here - in fact, with any methods of string calculations - is that different sting materials stretch at different rates, with nylgut being the stretchiest of all. For example, if the first string on your lute is 0.46 nylon, its nylgut equivalent is 0.42. However, bearing in mind that such thin nylgut string can stretch by c. 0.04 - 0.05mm under its working tension, you'd have to add this amount up to the calculated diameter. So, you end up with the same 0.46 gauge for the nylgut. The amount you'd have to add to compensate for the stretch factor obviously diminishes with thicker strings, so for the fourth course it would be c. 0.02 - 0.03mm, or, in practical terms, the next gauge up. Gut strings stretch less, so I'd usually add 0.02mm to the calculated gauges; perhaps 0.03mm for first strings. Can't recommend any online calculators, as I don't use them. Hope this helps. Alexander On 11/05/2020 00:30, [1]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Dear wise luters: When converting strings from nylon to gut to a synthetic gut, are there simple multiplication factors that one can use to determine the diameter of a replacement string? For example, if I have a 1mm nylon string, and I want to replace it with a gut or synthetic gut, can one simply multiply the diameter by a factor - based on the densities of the material - to find the diameter of the replacement string (pitch, string length, and room temperature being same)? Sorry for the complicated question; I assume the answer will more simple. Also, are 'Nylgut' and 'Alliance' strings material the same density? And lastly, Any recommendations for user friendly online string calculators? Apologies that the questions may have been previously addressed in this group- Thanks, ted jordan -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gilded Roses
I do indeed. On 30/01/2018 16:52, howard posner wrote: On Jan 30, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Alexander Batov <alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> wrote: My only explanation for this is that lute soundboards (with roses already cut in them), as well as separate roses of various complexity and designs would be made in great numbers by dedicated guilds of craftsmen, not lute and / or guitar makers themselves. Do you mean there was a separate lute-rose guild? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gilded Roses
The same seems also to be true for gilded roses in Italian early - mid-17th century guitars. My only explanation for this is that lute soundboards (with roses already cut in them), as well as separate roses of various complexity and designs would be made in great numbers by dedicated guilds of craftsmen, not lute and / or guitar makers themselves. They would posses all the necessary skills and experience to execute such work, i.e. some of the roses found in guitars and harpsichords, for example, are of very high quality and refined craftsmanship. The Venice based, Sellas family of makers, for instance, is known to have exported soundboards from Germany at the time. Alexander On 29/01/2018 16:20, mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: When this topic was up on the list the last time, ten lutes with gilded roses were said to survive, all of the first half of the 17th century. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stringing for baroque lute.
Here is a table that Savarez used to supply to calculate their wound strings; just follow the instructions at the bottom of it. http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/table-calculate-wound-savarez-strings.html Alexander PS: Matthew, I'm not sure the technician gave you the right formula. I might be wrong but I doubt it exists ... On 25/04/2016 14:53, Matthew Daillie wrote: Hi again Herbert, Martin, Arto et al., I have just spoken with the technician at Savarez. They are redoing their website and hope to update their string calculator at some time in the future. In the meanwhile I managed to get some explanations regarding their reference numbers for over-wound strings. They offer silver wound strings (NFA), copper wound strings (NFC) and plastic wound strings (NFP). I have never tried the latter but Savarez recommend them for transitional strings on theorbo-necked instruments. I would be interested if anybody has any feedback on them. The numbers correspond to the PUL (linear density). For example, NFA 230 is a silver wound string with a PUL of 2.3 g/metre. The silver and copper strings have different reference numbers because copper is slightly less dense than silver and to compensate the inner core is thicker so as to give the same tension. One can calculate the tension with the following formula, making sure to use the same units for SL and PUL (I hope I've got it right, I'm not a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination!): 4 x the frequency^2 x string length^2 x PUL This gives tension in kilos, for Newtons divide by 9.8 The technician gave me specific tensions for your baroque lute 9th course fundamental (E at a'415): NFA 230 gives 2.7 kgs NFA 250 gives 3 kgs NFA 275 gives 3.1 kgs Strangely, when I do the calculations with his formula I don't get quite the same results so maybe he was using a more complex formula (or winding down for his afternoon nap). I think Paul Beier's calculator is definitely the way to go for simplicity's sake. Otherwise, why not use Kuerschner or Aquila, their references use gut equivalent diameters and so are very straight forward for tension calculations? Anyway, one string down, 23 to go! Best, Matthew On 25/04/2016 05:00, Herbert Ward wrote: As an experiment, I put extremely light strings on my baroque lute. This made the tone very difficult to control. This is pretty good practice, but in a month or two I need to venture out of the house with the lute. So it's string buying time. Can someone give me a Savarez PUL number for the fundamental of the 9th course (E) at AA5 with a 68.5 cm string length? Also helpful would be an indication of whether the PUL corresponds to heavy, medium, or light stringing. Google searches gave nothing useful. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html . -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Can you tell something about this instrument?
Well, if one looks long enough on virtually any craft object, they will eventually come up with some sort of idea that, in their mind, could have inspired the maker. In the case of Franciolini though, it's much more down-to-earth, and the only thing that comes to mind (I came across a couple of dozen of such instruments over the years) is a profound disrespect and distortion of any proper traditional craft and / or art. There is something inherently ugly in the pieces that he (or whoever was working for him) had made. They may appear to look like musical instruments but in reality they are just useless junk, with no value whatsoever. Alexander On 02/02/2015 07:58, Greet Schamp wrote: To me it looks even inspired by aboriginal art Greet To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Can you tell something about this instrument?
This looks like a rather typical 'master piece' by Leopoldo Franciolini (late-19th - early-20th century dealer and forger). Although there is a view that he occasionally used some genuine parts from old instruments (personally, I very much doubt he did), there is nothing original on this one, so both dates are irrelevant. If I remember correctly, there is a very similar sort of 'oddity' in the Museu de la Musica, Barcelona; also with inlaid body and early date. Alexander On 01/02/2015 21:29, wayne cripps wrote: Hi Lute people - I was contacted by Bill E who owns this theorbo like instrument, and he is wondering if any of you folk have any idea what its story is. I have his story and pictures of it at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/bill-e/index.html The pictures are quite big. You can reply to eichbaumwill...@hotmail.com Wayne you can reply to eichbaumwill...@hotmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bridge
A bone (ivory or some other) cap on top of the bridge is merely there for decorative purposes. It can only affect the sound if its mass is of significant proportion to that of the bridge. In practice, though, it is negligible. Classical guitars have a saddle on the bridge which helps not only to adjust the string height but also transmit better the vibrations to the top. By the very physics of how a guitar bridge works, the saddle DOES NOT transmit vibrations to the top! --- AB On 25/07/2014 19:06, Bruno Correia wrote: A question (maybe to the luthiers): What's the function (if any) of the bone that is glued on the top of the bridge? Is that only ornamental or it is sonically important? I noticed that some lutes and guitars have these pieces of bone and others don't. Classical guitars have a saddle on the bridge which helps not only to adjust the string height but also transmit better the vibrations to the top. A Any thoughts? -- Bruno Figueiredo A Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba. Doutor em PrA!ticas InterpretativasA pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bridge
On 25/07/2014 23:28, Bruno Correia wrote: Thanks Alexander. I was curious about this little piece of bone found in some lutes, so according to you it's only a decorative ornament. Are there better types of woods for the bridge, denser materials maybe? I'm not quite sure, Bruno, why you are asking this now. It is not really relevant to your original question, to which I already answered, so ... ... I thought the saddle, being the material between the string and the bridge, was crucial for the transmission of energy to the top. How does the top receive the string's vibration? Whether it's got a saddle or not, the guitar bridge is a rigid structure and, as it is, acts as one. As the tension of the vibrating string changes throughout the cycle, it pulls the bridge forward, then releases it back again and so on. So the bridge rocks from back to front and, by doing this, moves the soundboard to which it is attached. Hope this helps, AB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 5 + 9 theorbo?
Bravo, Stuart! On 12/01/2014 23:06, WALSH STUART wrote: As you say: quite heavily built and rather odd designs. Presumably the makers in Pakistan - or wherever - are simply meeting the brief thay have been given. Ebay 'lute' is flooded with these things: odd, bizarre, heavily built, 'needs work to be made playable'. How extraordinarily bizarre. I enrolled on a week's instrument-making course led by Z. Taylor a few years ago. It was advertised as suitable for complete beginners, at first learning the skills of setting up and sharpening tools. I left after 15 minutes...and got a full refund. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Here is a more well-mannered, illustrated (scroll towards the bottom of
the page) discussion on RH nails, Mouton etc:
[1]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349set=a.14395780
5732236.27163.13540520662type=1theaternotif_t=photo_reply
Alexander
Original Message
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:18:19 -0800
From: Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net
To: Mayes, Joseph [3]ma...@rowan.edu, Christopher Wilke
[4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, Bruno Correia [5]bruno.l...@gmail.com,
List LUTELIST [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your
experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar.
That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like the
re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and all
the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good, accurate
explanation translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and anyone
else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally want
or need to use nails, but because I run into other players; occasionally
students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as well as
they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic
instruments.
Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot
button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the
guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic stringing,
playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad other
trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from
historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less
emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating annoying
details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps it
interesting, no?
Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque lute,
as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting engraving; his right
hand arched bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and more
than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no nails-
but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the
engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen
brightened up all the way:
[7]http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-
mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html
How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive, highly
trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a
little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a CD
where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic lute
just like that, low tension all-gut, RH and all.
Dan
--
References
1.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662type=1theaternotif_t=photo_reply
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
4. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7.
http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
The link seems to have got corrupted. Hope it works this time: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=399709983490349set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662type=1theaternotif_t=photo_reply On 12/12/2013 23:25, Alexander Batov wrote: Here is a more well-mannered, illustrated (scroll towards the bottom of the page) discussion on RH nails, Mouton etc: [1]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349set=a.14395780 5732236.27163.13540520662type=1theaternotif_t=photo_reply Alexander Original Message Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:18:19 -0800 From: Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net To: Mayes, Joseph [3]ma...@rowan.edu, Christopher Wilke [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, Bruno Correia [5]bruno.l...@gmail.com, List LUTELIST [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Thank you also, Chris for your last post. Very enlightening, your experience of nails with Baroque Lute vs. nails on Classical guitar. That's the kind of in depth reporting that is needed (and much like the re-discovery of lute RH technique in general- thumbs in, out, and all the rest) and is one reason why I am still waiting for a good, accurate explanation translation of Piccinni's comments on nails- and anyone else's from the time periods that matter- not because I personally want or need to use nails, but because I run into other players; occasionally students, who need nails for their guitar work but want to do as well as they can on lutes and other double course, historically problematic instruments. Don't know why this nail business has to be such an emotionally hot button issue (as it always seems to have been, even just amongst the guitarists themselves) any more than synthetic vs. historic stringing, playing position/location of the right hand, frets, and the myriad other trivia- that, taken all together- make such big differences from historic practice in this era. Can't it be discussed just a tad less emotional heat? It's just one of a number of fascinating annoying details that make this whole early music endeavor so much fun. Keeps it interesting, no? Consider this: a low tension gut strung 11 course French Baroque lute, as depicted in Charles Mouton's famous painting engraving; his right hand arched bent as much as any modern classical guitarist (and more than Julian Bream's), right down at the bridge- and we assume no nails- but check a good, detailed enlargement of his right thumb in the engraving- click on and enlarge the right hand area, computer screen brightened up all the way: [7]http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles- mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html How much different will that sound be, compared to a sensitive, highly trained, informed and experienced player who uses nails- (perhaps a little closer to the rose?) I believe Toyohiko Satoh has released a CD where he does indeed (but presumably sans nails) play his historic lute just like that, low tension all-gut, RH and all. Dan -- References 1.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid99709983490349set=a.143957805732236.27163.13540520662type=1theaternotif_t=photo_reply 2.mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3.mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 4.mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 5.mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 6.mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7.http://en.expertissim.com/old-engravings/gerard-edelinck-portrait-of-charles-mouton-joueur-de-luth-francais-o12131333.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] test - please ignore
test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Satoh - de Visée
The basses are either Aquila Venice or Pistoy from Dan Larson: https://www.facebook.com/ToyohikoSatoh.lute/photos_stream Alexander On 12/04/2013 19:06, Martin Shepherd wrote: Sorry I sent this to Ed, when I meant to send it to the list. Original Message Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Satoh - de Visee Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:05:33 +0200 From: Martin Shepherd [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: Edward Martin [2]e...@gamutstrings.com Well, if you're right Ed, I wonder why the strings are so white (whiter than the octaves) - in my experience gut strings are generally browner the thicker they are. Dan, I meant the KF harp strings (i.e. the thicker sizes from .95mm upwards) which are quite white and slightly textured, unlike the thinner PVF strings which are clear (like nylon). I have been using them for 5th and 6th course on renaissance lutes, and some of my customers have been using them for lower strings as well. I would expect them to work well on 11c lute, since the thickest would only be about 1.7mm and they're mostly used as open strings. M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Hello Martyn,
I understand perfectly well that the Tenier's picture has nothing to do
with the 'Italian representation', and I'd never meant to represent it
that way. That particular set of the pictures, as well as the other one
further down the page ('anjo com viola' from Abrantes, Portugal), are
only (mostly!) there just to illustrate how widespread such
organological feature as asymmetrical arrangement of pegs was from
country to country. So, in a way, it serves the opposite purpose to what
you tried to extract from it! Perhaps you've got confused by my wording
in the context next to the second link that I gave, which was supposed
to mean in the context of the article describing that particular
feature, not in the topic of our discussion, sorry about that.
Alexander
On 29/01/2013 10:56, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Further to the below, on reflection I may be mistaken to describe the
Teniers picture as an Italian representation - whilst he worked mainly
in a part of the Hapsburg dominions I think a link to Italy is a bit
too speculative. But the pilaster representation is very clearly
Italian
regards,
Martyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
How do I know? Well, because it would hardly ever occur to me that the instrument with such a distinctive body and peg head shape, number of strings, and in the place and time to be played with a bow. But if that's not a problem for you, make of it what you will, it's entirely your choice. I wonder who else might have had some similar idea on this list, I might be astonished to know?! Or we could have a vote ... bowed or not ... By the way, the illustration is from this book: La chitarra Giustiniani Antonio Stradivari 1681, Gianpaolo Gregori, Cremona: Consorzio Liutai e Archettai Antonio Stradivari, 1998 I'm not sure if writing to the author and suggesting your alternative interpretation would be a good idea though. In the mean time, here is a separate page with a larger image of the fragment under discussion: http://www.vihuelademano.com//current/pages/4course-guitar-Italy-c.1560.htm Alexander On 29/01/2013 14:39, Monica Hall wrote: How do you know that this instrument is a 4-course guitar. There is no way of telling as far as I can see that is intended to be plucked rather than played with a bow. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Surprised by your suggestion ...? I'm not quite sure how to describe it if somebody would call a rat a guinea pig, that sort of surprise ... Anyway, as regards to your interpretation, I've already said what I wanted to say. I'm afraid I've got no time to carry on with it in your vein of thought any further: you may next take an 'iffy-looking' flute for a bow or something etc. It's just not worth it for me, sorry about that. Alexander On 29/01/2013 17:32, Monica Hall wrote: Well thanks for the enlarged image - but it doesn't give us a clearer picture of the instrument - for example we can't see the sound holes or the bridge. In fact it is not entirely clear whether it is the front of back view of the instrument. It also seems to bear very little resemblance to Stradivarius guitars from the late 17th century if that is relevant. If we are talking the middle of the 16th century it could be any sort of experimental viol. As far as the shape is concerned it's not that different from the shape of a violin. The lirone has the pegs stuck through the head like the 5-course guitar and so do some bowed medieval instruments. As we all know the vihuela could be bowed or plucked and possible iillustrations it are variable in shape. Another thing which occurs to me is - has the carving been restored at any time?. It looks in pretty good nick if it has been there for 450 years. The problem with all these artifacts is that it is difficult to know whether they are still in their original state and for that matter how accurate a representation of the instrument it was in the first place. It would be interesting to know what other instruments are illustrated on the frieze if that is what it is. Why of all things should the sculptor have chosen a 4-course guitar? The two wind instruments look a bit iffy to me. By all means let's have a vote on it - but I wouldn't stake my life on it being a 4-course guitar. Or a 4-course chitarra. It is easy to jump to conclusions - it obviously hadn't occured to you to consider other possible identities since you are so suprised by my suggestion. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Martyn, Peter et all, First of all, this particular painting by Tibaldi (although with a different attribution, to A.Grammatica) was already illustrated in Meucci's article (published in 2000), so not much new here I'm afraid. The only evidence that I'm aware of for the existence of figure-of-eight shaped 4-course guitar in the 16th century Italy is found on a pilaster of the Duomo of Cremona (c.1560): http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg And in the context: http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5 What is particularly remarkable about this fragment is that the instrument appears to be 'wrapped' in a book (presumably of music ...?) which, in a way, gives an idea of its size: unless, of course, the intentions of the artist or sculptor were purely symbolical. Generally I agree with most of the points in Meucci's article but the question still remains whether the name chitarra a sette corde / chitarra a nove corde (or chitara da sette corde, i.e. as in Barberiis' book) is of a lute or figure-of-eight shape. Meucci's logic here is based entirely on a presumption (unless I missed something ...) that the figure-of-eight shape would have to be categorised as 'Spanish' and if there is no such attribute than it is in the lute shape. Unfortunately, a sole reliance on language definitions is never going to be accurate and so we may never get to the bottom of it, until some new, more definitive evidence, comes to light; it may indeed will ... Alexander On 28/01/2013 10:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you Peter, Have you a precise date for this painting? You suggest later half of the 16th century (and I note Tibaldi died in 1596) so it might not actually predate the the mandore boom years. As you also remark: 'Of course, nothing proves that the instrument depicted is a chitarrino but at least it proves some lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place.' ; and I wholly agree with you - nevertheless all these things add grist to the mill and I look forward to any other further discoveries. What would be ideal would be an Italian representation similar to the cover of the Morlaye book ie unequivocally tying an instrument (of whatever shape!) to a tablature, but regards, Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Martyn, Peter et all, First of all, this particular painting by Tibaldi (although with a different attribution, to A.Grammatica) was already illustrated in Meucci's article (published in 2000), so not much new here I'm afraid. The only evidence that I'm aware of for the existence of figure-of-eight shaped 4-course guitar in the 16th century Italy is found on a pilaster of the Duomo of Cremona (c.1560): http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg And in the context: http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5 What is particularly remarkable about this fragment is that the instrument appears to be 'wrapped' in a book (presumably of music ...?) which, in a way, gives an idea of its size: unless, of course, the intentions of the artist or sculptor were purely symbolical. Generally I agree with most of the points in Meucci's article but the question still remains whether the name chitarra a sette corde / chitarra a nove corde (or chitara da sette corde, i.e. as in Barberiis' book) is of a lute or figure-of-eight shape. Meucci's logic here is based entirely on a presumption (unless I missed something ...) that the figure-of-eight shape would have to be categorised as 'Spanish' and if there is no such attribute than it is in the lute shape. Unfortunately, a sole reliance on language definitions is never going to be accurate and so we may never get to the bottom of it, until some new, more definitive evidence, comes to light; it may indeed will ... Alexander On 28/01/2013 10:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you Peter, Have you a precise date for this painting? You suggest later half of the 16th century (and I note Tibaldi died in 1596) so it might not actually predate the the mandore boom years. As you also remark: 'Of course, nothing proves that the instrument depicted is a chitarrino but at least it proves some lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place.' ; and I wholly agree with you - nevertheless all these things add grist to the mill and I look forward to any other further discoveries. What would be ideal would be an Italian representation similar to the cover of the Morlaye book ie unequivocally tying an instrument (of whatever shape!) to a tablature, but regards, Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What do you call this instrument
Archicistre or Cistre theorbe, whichever suits best; certainly French, late 18th century. Not sure that the bridge is original though; in any case it should be movable and not as wide as it looks. For more examples, go to: [1]http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/ Then in the following sequence: Musee de la Musique Instuments et oeuvres d' art put 'archicistre' in Mot-cle(s) and 1700 - 1800 in Date d'execution pa nes, click Recherche On 15/07/2012 16:57, howard posner wrote: Is there a standard name for this sort of early 20th-century lute-guitar-attiorb ato whatever? [2]http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/07/24/betty-viereck-formerly-south-hadley And did anybody here know Betty Viereck? To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/ 2. http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/07/24/betty-viereck-formerly-south-hadley 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
On 11/07/2012 16:41, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Add is clear but we don't know what exactly to add and what way. It could be either upper or lower octave. If lower, it would be a very strange setting having plain brass string fundamental and gut octave. If upper, it could be quite difficult to play in tune having two very different strings (wire and gut) in a course especially that an octave would have to be made from a very thin wire. This is why some people think about addition of a brass wire to a gut string. How it was done we just don't know. One other interpretation is that it could be a set of sympathetic strings, that are tuned in higher octaves to the 5th, 4th and 3rd and lower octaves to the 2nd and 1st main courses. Bronze strings? Very unusal� Well, it's not really that unusual: phosphor bronze can be drawn into wire. It is used, for example, in lower registers of harpsichords, because of its slightly greater (than brass) mass. Moreover, bronze in old times was not just combination of copper and tin but many different alloys, some of which could be attributed to either brass or bronze. Alexander PS: Sorry for the previous 'empty' email, a format error. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: colliding strings
Hi Peter, I don't thinks your maker did anything wrong, not at all. I'm guessing of course but it looks like he simply replicated the sting spacing (well, at least on the bridge, I'm not so sure about the nut ...) from the bridge(s) of one of the original archlute or theorbo (a few of those have indeed survived with their original bridges intact). If this is the case, the distance between individual strings in courses as little as 4.0 mm and even less would be 'fairly' normal. To give just one, rather 'extreme' example: the original bridge of a theorbo by Martinus Kaiser (E.24, Musee de la Musique, Paris) has about 3.3 - 3.5 mm between the strings of the 6th course; and this is for the string length at c. 88.5 cm! I don't know what the string length of your archlute is but if it is, say, within 57 - 64 cm, then 4 mm would be about right (perhaps even on a wider side!) by the 'old standards'. So again, with such close spacing, a lot depends on where you pluck the strings ... Although not an archlute but perhaps something like this would work: http://www.klassiskgitar.net/unknown17-portraitofalut.html Good luck! Alexander On 22/07/2011 15:32, Peter Nightingale wrote: Ed, Suzanne, Roman, Alexander, ... Thanks for your suggestions. I remain confused by colliding strings and ditto realities. I cannot believe that Joel van Lennep would make an instrument with the design flaws your comments imply. Could it be that my lute does not live up to your expectations, because it is a 14 course archlute. (BTW, Suzanne seems to have a space problem too.) The courses have to be close together for the instrument to be playable, it would seem. The distance between the string of the 6th and 7th courses is is roughly 4mm, 8mm, and 4mm. If pairs of the individual courses were to be 5mm apart, this would become 5mm, 6mm, 5mm. It would introduce a 6.5th course, a revolutionary design! My guess is that the compromise that was made tries to avoid the the clanging disaster by creating more space at the nut. Actually, there is more: the octave strings are slightly closer to the sound board than the fundamentals in both courses. Thanks again, Peter. the next auto-quote is: A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. (Albert Einstein) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: colliding strings
What a strange in-course spacing you've got: too little at the bridge, too much at the nut! I suppose you can probably get away with it if you pluck closer to the bridge but otherwise it's got to be wider there (somewhere around 5.0 - 5.5 mm, depending on the string length), and at around 2.5 - max 3.0 at the nut (otherwise it can be rather tricky with fingering of the 6th course). Alexander On 21/07/2011 18:53, Peter Nightingale wrote: Here are the string distances measured between the centers of the strings: Course 6: 4.1 mm at the bridge and 3.4 mm at the nut. Course 7: 4.2 mm and 3.6mm, respectively. Both courses have nylon filament copper overspun bases and nylgut trebles. Does that sound like collision courses? Thanks, Peter. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: colliding strings
You can also try this little experiment and see if it solves the problem. Cut a few short strips (say, from an old bank card or similar) from 5 to 5.5 mm width and push them (one at a time of course) in-between the strings of the 6th course at the bridge end, right next to the 'tie loops'. You can even make little notches on both sides of the strip (i.e. for the strings) just to help it stay in place better. If the stings still collide, try with a wider strip etc. On 21/07/2011 21:11, Alexander Batov wrote: What a strange in-course spacing you've got: too little at the bridge, too much at the nut! I suppose you can probably get away with it if you pluck closer to the bridge but otherwise it's got to be wider there (somewhere around 5.0 - 5.5 mm, depending on the string length), and at around 2.5 - max 3.0 at the nut (otherwise it can be rather tricky with fingering of the 6th course). Alexander On 21/07/2011 18:53, Peter Nightingale wrote: Here are the string distances measured between the centers of the strings: Course 6: 4.1 mm at the bridge and 3.4 mm at the nut. Course 7: 4.2 mm and 3.6mm, respectively. Both courses have nylon filament copper overspun bases and nylgut trebles. Does that sound like collision courses? Thanks, Peter. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Google Art project - more evidence of fluted ribs
Dear Martin All, Here is the promised picture: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/Bartolomeo-Bettera_fluted-ribs-lute.htm As always in cases with historical iconography - however accurate and realistic it appears to us - we would still remain at the mercy of the artists. Having said that, such painters as Bartolomeo Bettera and Evaristo Baschenis are quite exemplary in rendering the finest details of musical instruments in their numerous still-life paintings. This particular painting is unique in a sense that it shows virtually cross-sectional view of the lute body, with the amount of fluting in the ribs that goes far beyond of what can be 'naturally' achieved with paper lining re-enforcement of the rib joints. Alexander PS: I wonder if there is somebody on this list who perhaps lives in Prague (or going to travel to and visit the National Gallery there) and can make a better picture of this painting? That would be mostly appreciated! On 08/02/2011 23:44, Alexander Batov wrote: Thank you, Martin. I know perfectly well the distortion effect you are describing (both from my own experience and old lutes) but the fluting that is caused by paper lining re-enforcement of the joints doesn't quite appear so consistent and pronounced as it looks on some of the paintings. Or perhaps it's just my wishful thinking ... Anyway, I wouldn't probably take this fluting idea so far if it wasn't one particular painting where it appears just a bit too extreme as only being caused solely by the linings. I believe the painting is attributed to one of the painters from Bartolomeo Bettera / Evaristo Baschenis circle. It's a bit late in the day but I try to upload it, perhaps tomorrow, so that you can have a look. The quality of the reproduction in the book is not great and it's in black and white, nevertheless the fluting is quite clear. Well, it is of course possible that the nut is sunk in the middle under the static string tension but that would be a rather big design fault that I can't imagine they would allow, in the golden age of lute making. Maybe we just expect too much from this painting. Alexander On 08/02/2011 22:20, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Alexander, Yes, the ribs here seem to stay fluted even as they go over the block, but in general old lutes seem to have developed the fluting after they were taken off the mould. I glue my paper linings in wet, and find that when they shrink they tend to pull the ribs into a fluted shape, which can be enhanced by choosing the grain direction of the rib in the first place. Many old lutes seem to have been distorted in the same way, because they show a sharp curve up towards the rib join and a relatively flat middle of the rib (hard to explain in words but easy to see). No, I can't see any reason to slope the nut rebate either, but it would work fine as shown in the painting, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve it, and I think I have seen this in other paintings as well - sorry I can't remember which ones. What do you think the lump is inside the pegbox on the treble side? I think there's one on the bass side as well, but it's less clear. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Google Art project
Hi Martin, I can't really see any reasons for putting the nut in a sloped rebate, can you? He must have got something wrong in otherwise such a perfect painting ... :) The other feature that I'm sure was remarked upon before is the rather pronounced fluting of the ribs (some other paintings show this too). I was always wondering whether it was achieved just by scraping (the ribs must be quite thick in the first place!) or purposely done during the bending process? Personally, I wouldn't rule this last one out. Alexander On 08/02/2011 17:48, Martin Shepherd wrote: ... The close up shows what I have always suspected - that the nut sits in a sloped rebate, not a right-angled one. ... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Google Art project
Thank you, Martin. I know perfectly well the distortion effect you are describing (both from my own experience and old lutes) but the fluting that is caused by paper lining re-enforcement of the joints doesn't quite appear so consistent and pronounced as it looks on some of the paintings. Or perhaps it's just my wishful thinking ... Anyway, I wouldn't probably take this fluting idea so far if it wasn't one particular painting where it appears just a bit too extreme as only being caused solely by the linings. I believe the painting is attributed to one of the painters from Bartolomeo Bettera / Evaristo Baschenis circle. It's a bit late in the day but I try to upload it, perhaps tomorrow, so that you can have a look. The quality of the reproduction in the book is not great and it's in black and white, nevertheless the fluting is quite clear. Well, it is of course possible that the nut is sunk in the middle under the static string tension but that would be a rather big design fault that I can't imagine they would allow, in the golden age of lute making. Maybe we just expect too much from this painting. Alexander On 08/02/2011 22:20, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Alexander, Yes, the ribs here seem to stay fluted even as they go over the block, but in general old lutes seem to have developed the fluting after they were taken off the mould. I glue my paper linings in wet, and find that when they shrink they tend to pull the ribs into a fluted shape, which can be enhanced by choosing the grain direction of the rib in the first place. Many old lutes seem to have been distorted in the same way, because they show a sharp curve up towards the rib join and a relatively flat middle of the rib (hard to explain in words but easy to see). No, I can't see any reason to slope the nut rebate either, but it would work fine as shown in the painting, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve it, and I think I have seen this in other paintings as well - sorry I can't remember which ones. What do you think the lump is inside the pegbox on the treble side? I think there's one on the bass side as well, but it's less clear. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Unorthodox as ever but brilliant nevertheless! Alexander On 01/12/2010 14:06, Roman Turovsky wrote: It was done in order to make possible artificial harmonics and other unusual techniques. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Watch key or Preston tuner info wanted
It is virtually identical to a 'screw and eye' mechanism of a modern bow, mounted on a brass plate. The 'screw' is let into holes on both ends of the plate and the 'eye' ends with a hook (to which the string is fastened) that slides along the slot of the plate. I never bothered to take photographs of it myself but you may find images on this page useful: http://www.art-robb.co.uk/EG.html Alexander On 12/09/2010 17:49, Dave Sawdon wrote: I want to make a watch-key tuning mechanism of the type supposedly patented by Preston in the 1770s (not the Portuguese peacock style). I can't find any photos which show a rear view of the tuner, or a cross-section drawing. Does anyone have any info that might be useful? Dave -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Italian translation again
'Tratta' is a neck extension (i.e. same as on a theorbo) with the peg head for additional (extended) strings at the end of it. It is highly unlikely that 'chinara', as you put it, means anything else in this context but chitara; just a peculiar handwriting style, that's all. Whether they cared for the rules of syntax is a totally different matter. Alexander On 14/08/2010 16:36, Monica Hall wrote: Another translation query... The whole sentence is Misura della longezza e largezza della tratta di Citara Tiorbata et in su la detta tratta ge vanno susa sette bassi e questa in Cima deue essere una quarta da violino eil restando deue da chinara [sic] tutte sette. which I would translate as Measure for the length and width of the neck of the Citara Tiorbata and on this are placed its seven basses and the top one must be the fourth string of a violin and the rest must be of chinara [sic] all seven. Most of this is straightforward but I can't find a definition for chinara. Could this be the material from which the strings are made of? Someone else has assumed that it is a misprint for Chitarra but that doesn't seem to fit the syntax. The original is not easy to read. The other thing is tratta - does this mean an ordinary fingerboard? Many thanks in advance Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore
Many good points, Stuart. I myself is a long term fan of this this little instrument (although not so much nowadays) and have made a number of copies of both the mandore and mandolino. I could never really see any hard reasons to distinguish them (I'm talking about early 17th - mid 18th century time frame). In fact, constructionally and in terms of size it is the same instrument and that's the main thing! There is also an evidence of a small late 16th century descant lute by Venere that was converted to a 6-course mandolino (hardly surprising, bearing in mind a suitable body size at hand!). As for the stringing, there seemed to be all different sorts of combinations, with 5- and 6-course instruments being double-strung throughout, or with a single first course, not to say with 4, 5 and, occasionally, 6 single strings (again, within the above-mentioned period). The Ulm MS has plenty of right hand fingering indications (underline for a thumb, single and double dots for fore- and middle fingers, in other words, finger-plucked entirely). Alexander On 01/06/2010 18:11, Stuart Walsh wrote: EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore was distinct from Italian mandolino. Not that distinct Eugene. Late Renaissance = Early Baroque? The Ulm MS (which I would really like to get hold of) is 1625-30 and there are sources of music throughout the 17th century. (info from Tyler's book) Aren't we simply talking about one instrument: a small, lute-like instrument with with gut strings which in France was called the 'mandore' and in Italy, the 'mandola/mandolino'? And for both, there are references to the top string as at g''. And even, sometimes the mandore was double-strung. So: same sort of size, shape, string material. But the French version was in a different tuning (with variants) and seems to have lost popularity in the 17th century whereas the Italian version in the fourths tuning (from the 17th century) has never quite died out. Unlike the mandola/mandolino, there are contemporary accounts of how the mandore was played: with a quill, with a quill tied to a finger (very odd?), with a single finger (presumably dedillo style) and plain fingerstyle. And there are descriptions of how loud it can sound (e.g. dominating a consort of lutes - Trichet). It strikes me as a bit odd that an evidently popular instrument typically with single strings should get them doubled as it became more Italianate. Could the single-string instruments be of lighter construction? But mandolini are incredibly light anyway. Would the double stringing of courses make the instruments louder. But contemporary accounts suggest that the mandore was loud. Would the double stringing favour a particular way of playing the strings? Lastly, Tyler quotes a French source from 1690 saying that some mandore players used a plectrum tied to the index finger for the first course and the thumb on the lower courses. Is it possible that some mandola/mandolino music was played in some sort of way with both quill and fingers? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore
Yes, I would certainly use different stings on single- and double-strung instruments. On the single-strung mandore I've currently got (SL 33.5cm), the first string is at c. 2.8kg, the rest at c. 2.5 - 2.7kg (I prefer a slightly higher tension on thicker gut strings, 3rd / 4th). I don't have a mandolino any more but it would normally be string with at a lower tension, c. 2.3 - 2.4 kg per string. Alexander On 01/06/2010 21:36, Stuart Walsh wrote: Alexander Batov wrote: Many good points, Stuart. I myself is a long term fan of this this little instrument (although not so much nowadays) and have made a number of copies of both the mandore and mandolino. I could never really see any hard reasons to distinguish them (I'm talking about early 17th - mid 18th century time frame). In fact, constructionally and in terms of size it is the same instrument and that's the main thing! There is also an evidence of a small late 16th century descant lute by Venere that was converted to a 6-course mandolino (hardly surprising, bearing in mind a suitable body size at hand!). As for the stringing, there seemed to be all different sorts of combinations, with 5- and 6-course instruments being double-strung throughout, or with a single first course, not to say with 4, 5 and, occasionally, 6 single strings (again, within the above-mentioned period). Very interesting. I'm still puzzling over string tensions. Would you use a different set of strings for a single-strung instrument than a double-strung one? Would a single-string instrument need slightly thicker strings and higher tension? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
OK, here is an idea. In the so called Swan manuscript (St-Petersburg, the library of the academy of science) some of the lute pieces appear to be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't have a copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the memory serves me right (I used to see the original a number of times but that was 25 years ago!), a similar sort of numbers are written beneath the bottom tablature line, next to the usual bass course letters. What this would mean is that the person would play from the tablature using the main six strings of the baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the corresponding drones at the back of the neck. And it's those drone strings that would have to be indicated so as to eliminate guess work. What you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance) mean like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on the tablature stave above) or, perhaps, if they are written next to the same bass course indications (i.e. as for theorbo). Alexander On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn Hodgson wrote: On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has anyone yet come up with an interpretation of the small numbers under the tablature stave in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' this piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in a very similar style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec 2005) but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant. I've pasted my original query below and would be grateful for any insights. ' What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2' or a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179) in the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance one might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, but the MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but in the context of the particular chord progressions where it appears this makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but the relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three to 5) and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it some LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no sense.' Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Absolutely! And let's not forget that perhaps most (if not, indeed, all) 'professional' lutenists from c. 1600 on also played chitarrone / theorbo and guitar where thumb-out is simply far more superior for the sheer flexibility of it, for a wider variety of sound dynamics and of tone colour that it allows to produce by shifting the hand towards and away from the bridge. How could all this be taken away from at least 150 years of lute and guitar playing (i.e. c. 1600 - 1750) is difficult to imagine, if only thumb-in had remained ... Alexander Robison, John wrote: Hi everyone, Just a few comments to add: In addition to Dowland, Gregory Howet also played thumb-out; my ancient article on Sebastian Ochsenkuhn (American Lute Society Journal, 1982) points out that Ochsenkuhn (1558) is seen playing thumb out (perhaps because his lute looks pretty large), and Bakfark is also shown playing thumb out. I have played both ways (with no guitar background), and I think that thumb out is just as good (sometimes better) for the repertory c. 1600 . . . John O. Robison To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stretching strings and diameter.
I think they only appear as 'equally' unstable because they would all need to be tuned up but ... to the rather unequal degree. Being more or less under equal tension, thinner strings would not only stretch more but with each decrement of falling tension (as they get thinner) there would be a wider drop in the frequency per cent rate as compared with thicker strings across the instrument's range (i.e. as an example: g' - g'# = 23.3 Hz, g - g# = 11.65 Hz, G - G# = 5.83 Hz etc). As a result thicker strings would need less of re-tuning (peg-turning) to get them back in pitch again. Does it make sense or did I get it wrong? Alexander Herbert Ward wrote: One might expect that, during the period when new strings are stretching, the thinner strings, having less material* than the thicker strings, but the same tension to support, would stretch faster. However, this expectation is not born out by my experience. In dealing with new strings, my perception has been that all the strings are about equal in terms of tuning instability. * ie, a smaller cross-sectional area To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Chiave
I don't know about Italian but there is one Spanish late 16th source in which the word 'clabacon' is used to mean 'tuning pegs' of a harp. I suppose 'clabacon' comes from the root word 'clave' meaning 'key' (i.e. same meaning as the Italian 'chiave') or, indeed, 'clavo' = 'nail' whichever is more appropriate. There is also one more Spanish source (from 1619) in which the same word (this time with a slightly different spelling, as 'clavazon') appears in the description of a vihuela. Its meaning, however, is not exactly clear from the context, partly obscured by the fact that the word 'clabixas' = 'pegs' is also used in the description. Do you know the exact quote where the word chiave appears? Alexander G. D. Rossi wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, Was the word chiave used to mean tuning peg in 18th-century Italian sources? Were there other meanings/uses? Grazie mille - GDR To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strange lute in French painting
What always puzzled me in this picture is that some of the frets (which seem to appear to be double ...?), starting from the third, look as a kind of 'split' from the middle and down towards the edge of the neck. The painter didn't 'confirm' this feature in the mirror reflection of the neck, although one of the frets there looks slanted rather oddly. Here is what I'm talking about, plus also an enlarged fragment of the music page which can perhaps be, with some luck, deciphered and tried on your flute or, indeed, pestle-oboe :) http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/J.Linard-fivesenses.html Sorry about a not quite pin-sharp quality of the picture - I took this photograph from the original painting in Louvre some 20 years ago with an ordinary film camera. Alexander On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:32:58 -0800 Nicolás Valencia wrote: Hi all, I've found this lute in a painting by Jacques Linard, (France, 1600-1645). It's called The Five Senses and the Four Elements, so I guess the lute represents hearing. What kind of lute is this? [1]http://www.wga.hu/art/l/linard/senses.jpg Best, Nicolas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A mandora by Hoffmann (1733) on eBay?
They are as authentic as those of any other Lautenguitarre or the like, not to say that dreary varnish on the back that has nothing to do with Joh. Christian Hoffmann whatsoever! I just wish somebody would buy it as firewood so that it will eventually perish from the net ... but then you might just as well burn your money :) AB Roman Turovsky wrote: As I recall from a different set of photos of the same instrument that were circulated 1-2 years ago: the shell and neck from the rear looked pretty old and authentic. The soundboard is new for sure. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A mandora by Hoffmann (1733) on eBay?
Well the neck profile is just another feature that gives it away as a piece of junk. Seriously, there is no point to discuss the thing any longer, it's not worth it! AB Roman Turovsky wrote: No, the neck profile on it was definitely of much older origin. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A mandora by Hoffmann (1733) on eBay?
It does a bit although he would usually prefer to stick up more 'fancier' labels. AB Nicolás Valencia wrote: It looks more like one of those fake lutes built by Signor Franciolini... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed lute pic?
Frans Van Mieris, self-portrait. I think the painting is (was?) in the Galleria Uffizi but I might be wrong. Alexander Stuart Walsh wrote: I came across this image recently - possibly a chap playing a double-headed lute. So (?) Dutch or English? Perhaps it's from a well-known painting? I only had a camera phone and it was shot at an angle to avoid the flash glaring against the glass. I've cropped the writing underneath- but you can't see it clearly anyway - it says something like 'micris' with some kind of diacritical twiddle over the letter c (if it is a c). http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/dhlute.jpg Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings, pitch, thickness tension - need help!
Hi Manolo, Well, it's yes and no question isn't it. And, as you expanded it yourself , it is up to the player in the end which strings and at what tension(s) they'd be more comfortable with to produce the sound they want. What I can perhaps recommend is the highest limit of tension, so as not to destroy the instrument :) Otherwise, go with the lower tension range that your playing technique would allow; this will certainly help to produce a more beautiful sound. Also, if one plays with thumb-over hand position, it would then be possible to move the hand further towards the bridge for even more harmonically rich sound. There is certainly an added bonus in playing like this on vihuela and one can almost read between the lines in the Fuenallana's instructions that it would be the way to go on the vihuela. Unfortunately thumb-over hand position is not yet widely acknowledged by modern vihuela players most of whom would have first started with thumb-under on the lute ... and so it goes. Alexander - Original Message - From: ml man...@manololaguillo.com To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:28 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: strings, pitch, thickness tension - need help! my humble opinion: your vihuela, Oskar, was designed and build by Batov with a tension with which it sounds at its best. I would ask Batov about everything related with stringing, fretting, etc. Each instrument is a world in itself, and also sounds different when played by different musicians. The other way around is also true, and this is marvelous: a good player has his/her own sound, whatever the instrument played! Manolo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute music.
Not sure about music theory but MRI scan can perhaps reveal some clues. Quite possibly the result will be not that different as from MULTItimbral sound or some other 'addictions'. I'd feel quite sceptical if any, however advanced, detection method that is available today can pick up such subtleties ... Alexander Herbert Ward wrote: The strings of a lute all have approximately the same timbre, so that lute music is polyphonic and monotimbral. In contrast, there is much early music which is polyphonic and MULTItimbral (ensemble music). Is it possible, using music theory or other methodology, to analyze whether practitioners of lute music accomodate the instrument's monotimbral quality, and to describe the details of how the accomodation works? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Instruments at 415
Bruno Correia wrote: Are instruments, in general, built to work at a certain frequency? That would be ideal but difficult to implement in reality; therefore they _happen_ to sound better at certain frequenc(ies), not obligatory those intended ... Recently I started to tune my five course guitar in 415, but I think the sound is a bit muffled... It may simply be because you are used to it being tuned higher up. A lot depends on your actual guitar model and string length of course. Say, for a 'typical' 17th century guitar, with 68 - 69 cm SL, tuning it in E (a' 440) would certainly be too high sound-wise (well, at least in my experience), a' 415 is better, a' 392 is even better still. Should I use thicker gauges? Yes. AB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String depression
No, it's not. Think again or perhaps watch this little video that may help you to get an idea what happens when one's fiddling about with strings in-between frets: [1]http://tinyurl.com/cfajt5 AB - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Alexander Batov Cc: [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: String depression But the rise in pitch is the direct result of an increase in length --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Alexander Batov [5]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: From: Alexander Batov [6]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: String depression To: Cc: [7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 19 March, 2009, 9:07 PM The rise in pitch when the string is depressed (fingered) is more to do with the increase in its tension, not lengthening. Or rather both but the effect from the latter is negligible. AB Martyn Hodgson wrote: I am extremely sceptical about this claim, if only for the insignificant change in pitch which would be achieved by an additional depression of say 0.5mm (ie from stopping the string without bottoming to the fingerboard and fully depressed) . By way of an example: the increase in string length of a 64cm string depressed at half its length by 0.5mm is only about 0.0008mm! (Pythagorus theorem: square root of [320x320+0.5x0.5]) ie an increase of a mere 0.000125% .. can any human ear detect this? MH -- References 1. http://tinyurl.com/cfajt5 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com 6. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String depression
The rise in pitch when the string is depressed (fingered) is more to do with the increase in its tension, not lengthening. Or rather both but the effect from the latter is negligible. AB Martyn Hodgson wrote: I am extremely sceptical about this claim, if only for the insignificant change in pitch which would be achieved by an additional depression of say 0.5mm (ie from stopping the string without bottoming to the fingerboard and fully depressed) . By way of an example: the increase in string length of a 64cm string depressed at half its length by 0.5mm is only about 0.0008mm! (Pythagorus theorem: square root of [320x320+0.5x0.5]) ie an increase of a mere 0.000125% .. can any human ear detect this? MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: glueing back decoration
If you really value your lute you'd better never use ANY synthetic glues, whether it's cyanacrylate, PVA, 'Gorilla' glue, Titebond etc. If there is absolutely no choice but synthetic, use the last one, i.e. Titebond. It's always best to re-glue the broken join when it is 'fresh' and not spoiled with any synthetic glues before. The best choice to repair any such breaks is fish glue (made from the sturgeon's swim bladder); if done properly it should never break but at a different place. Hide and bone glues are fine too, albeit less secure than fish glue. I'd take it to a professional if I were you. AB howard posner wrote: As long as the subject has come up, the bass rider on my 13-course broke off some time ago. It looks as if it didn't come apart at a glue joint; the wood itself seems to have split. The break was repaired once before, probably with hide glue, but it didn't hold. I'm finally getting tired of having an 11-course lute instead of a 13- course and would like to permanently reattach the rider. Is strong cyanacrylate a good option, or should I just take it to a professional? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: glueing back decoration
If only I could read your thoughts I'd never advised. howard posner wrote: On Mar 15, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alexander Batov wrote: If you really value your lute you'd better never use ANY synthetic glues How can I really value a lute that has a broken bass rider? Many's the time I've thought about taking it out back and shooting it. But I'd have to buy a gun first, so it's probably cheaper to repair it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
As compared to modern day's levels of mercury contamination in the air (in particular in such big places like London where hundreds of thousands, if not more, of strip lights and 'new generation' light bulbs are getting replaced and simply chucked off in skips daily!) the effect from the mercury / lead loaded strings would simply count next to nothing. By the way, I'm not a toxicologist :) So no responsibilities accepted ... AB Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it were a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports of professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of any. But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist should be able to inform us MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Well, FoRMHI is reborn now so hopefully the discussion will carry on. What I wonder is how the idea of coloured strings (meaning loaded, in the context of this discussion) resides with the fact that occasionally they do show up among the mid-range strings too (not to say on the the first and second courses, as in L'homme au Luth / /by Rubens!) where, strictly speaking, there is no such 'necessity'? Did you actually try to load your silk strings? AB alexander wrote: People nowadays are much more conscious of the environmental toxins. Plus... Imagine Aquila sells lead and-or mercury loaded strings. The lawyers will swarm around lute players like sharks with offers of service. The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings (showing smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red color ) and instrument string-hole measurements. One point being argued, however, was whether some of lute strings, and possibly loaded basses, were made of silk rather then gut. That discussion was held in FoRMHI, and basically died with the demise of the Fellowship itself. From the point of leeching the metals out, silk binds more closely with lead and mercury salts (as well as tin salts, customarily used to apply all the fancy colors to silk garbs), and might be much safer as loaded strings, as well. alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
I was curious about that article too but I haven't read it either. He also mentions silk stings, isn't he? Hiding blemishes ... well, this sounds just like one more speculation to me. Black would certainly hide blemishes best than red, so what? AB Monica Hall wrote: I just wondered - do we know how readily available loaded strings were or how widely they were used? There was an article in the Galpin Society Journal 2006 about Roman and Neapolitan gut strings by Patrizio Barbieri and apparently he suggests that there is no historical evidence for loaded strings and that colouring them may have been a way of hiding blemishes. I haven't actually read the whole article yet - only a summary. I wondered whether anyone else had? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
On and on and on it goes ... I'm afraid I've got no time to engage in empty rhetoric here; if only I had been a historian ... Anyway, why not roll up your sleeves and take up some practical steps in sorting out all those fakes that no one knows about and then report us back on your findings, that would be great. And I'll keep my eyes peeled, whatever that means historically. Alexander - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica I'm not talking about the copies we know about, I'm talking about the copies we don't know about. There's a difference. The ones we don't know about--and they are everywhere--are the good ones. The idea that the guilds were strictly enforced in quite charming--have you looked at court records from the time? Seems like everyone was either a spy or a snitch. You can of course claim that there are no unknown forgeries--but history would not be on your side. Historical instruments are rarely tested with the specialized tools used in paintings--and even ifthere were, there is less information available about the materials. Strads and some other fiddles being the exception. It's a question of economics. The other reason s that musea rarely devalue their collections by tossing out the opera dubia--it also makes them look silly when they admit they have been showcasing a fake. As far as daft, well--I like to think of myself as an historian, Historically, daft was the same word as deft. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
You mean (or whoever, from where you quoted from) that Edlinger's manufactured conversions are somehow different from genuine earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments? Or was that just a theory that he was involved in a business of manufactured conversions? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica As I recall - Edlinger routinely manufactured conversions of earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
Well, you see, there is only one example of surviving lute of this kind so it would be safer to put things in singular. However, even this 'theory' still remains one big guess. For example, the body could have been rebuild from the original one by Tieffenbrucker (say, because it was too large for a customer who commissioned its 13-course conversion), a sort of cut lute as is described in the Burwell Lute Tutor. Consequently the original soundboard could have been re-used from the same instrument too. Or he only re-used the soundboard but felt obliged to include Tieffenbrucker's label too. We just don't know. Edlinger, as all string instrument makers of the time, labelled (or called for better word) himself Lauten und Geigenmacher but did he actually make any lutes from scratch or are they all conversions? That's another big question that has not yet been definitely answered. AB Roman Turovsky wrote: That I don't know. But Edlinger would certainly have put Tiffenbreucker labels on the instruments he made from scratch. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
While your 30% idea can be good enough for Blue Peter, in no way you can spread sweeping generalisations like that on historical lutes, that's really daft. The very idea of lute forgery in the period from, say, early 16th - early 18th century (the 'golden era' of the lute) would not be possible by default, simply because of the guild regulations that were in place. One could not just belong to the business by being an amatory maker and / or even apprentice but only when the necessary skills are reached and the examination passed (in making of an instrument of certain complexity). And this is why one can see such a difference between a genuine lute and a forged substitute by, for example, the first historical forger Franciolini. Think about it. Or get yourself a copy of the lute catalogue from the Cite de la Musique where there are some good examples of historical lute 'forgeries' (all not earlier than mid-19th century of course). You say you prefer 'copies' but what is 'the copy' anyway in your understanding? Is it a 'copy' in appearance and some physical parameters or in acoustical terms? Strictly speaking, neither of these is possible to replicate completely and hence there is no such thing as an 'exact replica' of the lute! That was my original point anyway. However, by applying the main principles of historical lute construction we can reasonably well approach the ancient tradition of lute making and, ultimately, the sound idea. Once again, there is no point in drawing examples from books, painting, scores etc here. The difference may not be evident to you but it is there if you know where to look. Alexander - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica What I'm saying is that it is possible to build an exact replica because it has already been done on a large scale for , sculpture and musical instruments. Hey, the Capirola Lutebook could be a forgery. It is a good candidate. Some of the forgers were true geniuses. I'm not sayng we should do that--although I prefer copies, myself--I'm just saying it has been done, wholesale. People say it isn't possible, but it has been done. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
No, it hasn't! The fakes you are talking about (well, assuming I understand you correctly, such as all those 'Franciolini's and the like) are blooming obvious fakes and have nothing to do with 'exact replicas'. Although, curiously enough, they were considered as such and / or genuine originals some 30+ years ago and perhaps even now ... in some remote corners of the globe. Anyway, I wouldn't in any way be taking 'historical' fakes into consideration here but quite exact, shall I say, subtle things. And in no way I'm trying to discourage anybody from buying an 'exact replica' nowadays if there is one up for grabs. One gets what one believes in. Alexander David Tayler wrote: Let's assume that 30 percent of these old instruments are fakes, which is a reasonable assumption. Maybe the number is higher, maybe it is lower. But a good percentage of them are fakes, of course. Then it is possible to make an exact replica, because it has already been done. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 courses and a bit of ham
Alexey Archipovsky is indeed quite amazing musician. For those who don't know there are several of his full-time videos that are available for download directly from his web site: http://www.arkhipovskiy.com/frame/A.html The second (bottom) link against each of the titles means download. They are all great compositions; the first and the third piece are just gems! Alexander damian dlugolecki wrote: [1]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4a_1231249875 -- References 1. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4a_1231249875 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 courses and a bit of ham
It doesn't seem possible to give a direct link to the download page here .. so it's the forth link in the second line from the top. Alexander Alexander Batov wrote: Alexey Archipovsky is indeed quite amazing musician. For those who don't know there are several of his full-time videos that are available for download directly from his web site: http://www.arkhipovskiy.com/frame/A.html The second (bottom) link against each of the titles means download. They are all great compositions; the first and the third piece are just gems! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 courses and a bit of ham
Yep! Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Do you mean the one written skatchat in other words... ? ;-) Best, Jean-Marie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 courses and a bit of ham
I know this but my point was to give the link to the downloand (videos) page not to each individual one. Thanks anyway. Alexander Anthony Hind wrote: Alexander To find the link for each video, you need to open the video page and then above your browser, you should see something like windows (or similar). Within that, there is tools. There you should find information on the page, and you will see the label media. There you should find the direct link. For example, here is the first one: http://www.arkhipovskiy.com/video/BARINYA.wmv Regards Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Doubl e headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
OK, you are the master, you know best. Perhaps you also declare as mere=20 nonsense the very material fact that Mimmo is actually able to make loa= ded=20 strings? I myself tried his latest batch (those that he recently develope= d)=20 at the Greenwich festival last year and they were really good sounding=20 strings, and not only in my opinion. Or maybe that was a dream ...? To me I see no difference whether it is to do with heavy salts or fine me= tal=20 powders that get integrated into the fibre structure of the gut. And, as = you=20 may well understand, I'm not talking about any kind of chemical bond with= =20 the gut molecules as such here (neither was I in the previous posting)! Whether gut loading process was indeed part of historical practice is=20 totally different matter altogether and unless there is proper historical= =20 evidence in support ... we are all talking nonsense really. Alexander - Original Message -=20 From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/=20 Demi-fil=E9 No, no, no. This is complete and utter nonsense without any factual=20 basis. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I will not accomodate this kind of fanta= sy science. DD=20 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12 c/loaded/ Demi-filé
howard posner wrote: Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the string's innards is going to increase its density, though the increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. What seems to me more feasible, as regards to the increase of the density of the gut string, is that some substances that were traditionally used in dyeing of organic materials, such as iron and copper sulphates for instance, may well have initiated the idea of loading gut with an extra mass. These salts, or indeed even more heavier ones, may well remain as purely mechanical residues in-between the long chains of molecules that constitute the fibrous part of the gut ( the main part of it which, in a way, is responsible for strength factor of the gut string). As a matter of fact the specific weight of iron and copper sulfates is about 1.8 - 1.9 and 2.2 - 2.3 accordingly, certainly more than the gut itself. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Charles Mouton lute music EL 082326
Just a few words in defense of E lucevan le stelle. I feel sorry that a number of people on this list were put off by the download problems. I\'m sure the company will do their best to resolve them; they are very well aware of the problem. Well, I had some minor problems with my downloads too but eventually it all worked OK (it was sorted out through a few friendly email exchanges). And was really worth it! Marco Pavan\'s interpretation of Mouton\'s music is quite amazing, perhaps the best so far (in my liking anyway). I only wish he could record more of the French 11-course repertoire. Alexander PS: By the way, Eduardo Egüezs Tombeau from E lucevan le stelle is really good too! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Saturday, December 15, 2007 3:19 PM Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? ... but I am afraid that it will take a long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. It will take perhaps even longer to percolate into the not so wide vihuela playing folks. The largest part of surviving vihuela iconography 'cries' for the thumb-over technique, yet everybody who plays vihuela nowadays seems to have chosen the way the renaissance lute is set up (I mean in terms of the overall width of string spacing on the bridge and, as a result, larger distances in-between courses and between individual strings in courses). The consequence is that some of the vihuela pieces that require stopping two neighbouring courses with one finger can hardly (if not, in fact, at all!) be played in this way. In addition, the thumb-under technique on the vihuela also results in a rather poor sound projection. Two factors here: the soundboard on the vihuela has only two bars and so naturally produces smaller output of high harmonics than the lute soundboard, plus plucking further away from the bridge results even in less of such harmonics in the sound. One original instrument that I came across recently (c.1760s six-course guitar from the Spanish school of makers) had a really astonishing evidence as to how it was played: the bridge right below the first course had virtually all its edges rounded by the resting little (and perhaps even ring) finger(s), plus two deep grooves next to each other in the soundboard, just underneath the first course (most evidently left by the index and middle fingers striking at right angles to the strings). Among modern players I'd like to note Mark Wheeler who really uses full advantages of plucking strings closer and further away from the bridge. It seems like he combines both thumb-under and -over techniques (correct me if I'm wrong) resulting in such an alive and vibrant sound. Anyway, that's the impression I've got after the concert (which was simply amazing!) they gave at the Greenwich festival in November. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. Neither did I write one cannot play one kind of music with or without nails, just that you may notice the differences. Well it's simply because of your pre-conditioned approach to their music. You know (or you believe you know) that Sor wasn't using nails (i.e. because he or somebody else wrote about this or whatever). Did Piccinini, Castaldi, Robert de Visee, Weiss etc etc use nails or no nails? Can you spot that through their music? I very much doubt you can. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
On Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:06 PM LGS-Europe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Nails/no nails have a similar effect on compositions; guitar players may notice differences between Giuliani and Sor resulting from their use/no use of nails. (Hmm, authentic Lobos on gut. ;-) ) It'll take one good player to disproof this. In a similar vein, most of the 5-course guitar music, for example, was very much likely played with nails anyway ... but how many modern performers play it like this (I mean on the 'baroque' guitar)? - Perhaps a few. At the same time there are some good ones who play with or without nails. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings Perhaps OT on the lute-list either way, but I mentioned Sor and Giuliani, not baroque guitar music. OK, you can replace 'baroque' guitar with theorbo if you want. ... I think we are all inspired by these players first and foremost. And that's what matters in the end. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings
- Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Swanneck + loaded strings When I met Toyohiko in 1982, he was using nylon trebles that he twisted (with a small manual drill) to increase their density and make them more like gut. I tried it for a while; more trouble than it was worth. By the way, twisting doesn't increase density. It makes strings more flexible and so they fret more accurately (thick nylon strings in particularly), at the same time become quite unstable, i.e. go out of tune all the time. It is possible to 'fix' the twisting by heating the string all along its length so that it becomes more permanent but ... now that's all in the history. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Palmer orpharion images
Dear Stewart, I don't know what Andrew's reply will be but from my own experience of making orpharions (I've made three so far) it's really difficult to work out the exact approximation to any fixed meantone calculations, whether it's a 1/4th, 1/6th etc. Frets have to be placed in some sort of compromised positions which work best for the chosen repertoire. And this relates not only to those frets where the sums of chromatic and diatonic semitones are not equal but for the other frets too (like the second for example), plus taking into account pitch distortions when strings are fingered. I also found (as I believe many other makers did) that direct copying of fret distances from surviving instruments never works. In one of the recent exchanges on this list Martyn has repeatedly tried to point out on the controversy surrounding the idea of direct references to meantone fret arrangements; so far without luck ... Alexander - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Palmer orpharion images Dear Andrew, I see from one of the pictures that the space between the 1st and 2nd frets is noticeably wider than the space between the 2nd and 3rd frets. I assume it is some kind of meantone. Am I right? If so, to what temperament do the frets approximate? Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute repair question
In majority of cases (!) there is absolutely no need to remove soundboard in order to re-glue the bridge; in this situation in particularly where the bridge separation is clean. Most experienced lute makers would know how to do this and the whole procedure takes no more than 5 minutes ... The use of natural (hide, best of all fish) glue is essential. --- AB - Original Message - From: vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute repair question Hi Laura: You need to talk to someone who is intimately familiar with Lutes, having made them. Re-gluing the bridge on a Lute is a bigger issue than that on a Guitar. The sound board should be removed which opens up a very large can of worms you don't want Joe Lukamabutcrok The plumber futzing with. You should call your original maker and ask him/her for a recommendation. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: who invented the guitar
- Original Message - On Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:16 PM Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The theory I heard once, is that the larger bout of the guitar is to improve the lower resonance and, the upper bout for the higher resonance. Yes, this may indeed be a possibility. What is actually interesting with the two examples of instruments that Tony mentioned about (Afghani rebab and Iranian tar) is that the inner cavity of the body gets rather shallow at the waist area, creating a narrow air passage between the lower and upper bouts, in other words dividing the body in two more or less 'distinct' resonators. In fact, even some varieties of traditional African harps have their skin covered bodies shaped somewhat like 8, with a clearly defined waist. Another interesting example is Indian sarinda on which the lower (smaller) part of the body is covered with skin membrane (and over which the bridge is placed) while the upper is left open to project the sound, almost like a gramophone bell ... Also, figure of 8-shape body (or with the C-shape bouts) doesn't seem to be a sort of prerequisite for bow accommodation on some types of early bowed instruments; they are occasionally shown played with the bow well beyond (above) the waist area. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: who invented the guitar
- Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: who invented the guitar bet you'awl wish you had a friendly little charango 'bout now so as to perform this-here ex-pear-i-ment. I would be tempted to use it as a racket though ... AB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: de visee kellner
Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all... Here's a nice (but short) link to Lislevand playing De Visée: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhKuL75sLfQ Thank you for this. Leslevand is a truly remarkable player. It's always great to hear somebody who's got enough technical skills to play such music and ... be in full control of it (rather than the other way round as is often the case). His 2003 'la belle homicide' CD on 11-course lute is equally impressive. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: mastic solvent
On Monday, March 19, 2007 3:53 AM Clive Titmuss Susan Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info, Richard. I was particularly interested to read: Turpentine never completely evaporates. A small percentage remains in the varnish as an elastic resinous substance. I'm not sure that this is actually true. Modern brands of double rectified turpentine (genuine turpentine) that are used to dilute oil varnishes either before straining (of newly cooked varnish) or to increase their brushability would eventually evaporate completely. A drop of good quality genuine turpentine on a piece of paper leaves no visible sign and smell after it's evaporated. I would actually hate to use such turps in my oil varnishes if they remained in them as 'an elastic resinous substance'. Thank goodness oil varnishes are elastic enough as they are and this may well be why old recipes do not mention of adding any other dilutant but oil (if there was indeed such a need). Well, perhaps they would but genuine turpentine was not yet available back in the 16th - 18th centuries. I noted in examining the photos that I have of mastic used as a ground for guitar rosette inlay, that even though the samples were literally hundreds of years old, the mastic had shrunk very little if any and no elements were missing. This indicates to me that the mastic retains some elasticity even though the wood moves. I'm actually in great doubt that the word 'mastic' in this particular context (i.e. going back to your earlier email, with references to descriptions of guitars in catalogues etc) has anything to do with mastic as _resin_ but rather something that _hardens to act as an adhesive and filling material_. At least on two Spanish guitars that I have recently restored (a truly remarkable guitar by Juan Pages 1803 and one of the six guitars, that are known to have survived, by F. Sanguino c. 1760s), patterns of MOP in their rosettes were set in what appears to be a mixture of glue and wooden filings (most probably of ebony in the Pages and rosewood in the Sanguino). In fact, in case with the Sanguino guitar, more than a third of MOP pieces together with dark-brown paste were merely 'washed off' by the moisture that has got onto the area of the rosette and further inside of the instrument some time in the past. So the sticky brownish 'substance' that have formed caused some noticeable signs of discoloration on the inside of the soundboard. The decorative inlays in other areas of soundboards (beneath the bridge, on the soundboard extension over the neck and, occasionally, next to the outside rim of the rosettes) on the Spanish late 18th - early 19th century guitars (by such makers as F. Sanguino, Juan and Josef Pages, Josef Benedid and some others) are always made of wood. The MOP inlays that are often incorporated in such inlays were most evidently put there after the whole of the ornament was already in place: the housing for one MOP piece that I had to replace on the Pages 1803 goes deeper than that for the ebony inlay surrounding it. The accuracy and precision with which these kind of inlays are executed are simply mind boggling! I probably spend hours by just looking at them ... they are really amazing. There is a belief that decorations of this kind were manufactured by separate trades, not makers of the guitars themselves. This may indeed be the case, simply stemming from the fact that some ornamental patterns are virtually identical (and executed with the same breath taking precision) on guitars of different makers. On Italian 17th century guitars black paste, instead of wood, is used to fill in the ornamental inlays in the soundboard, as well as to hold ivory / bone / MOP rhombi, squares, or triangles in patterns surrounding sound holes or along the soundboard edge. Occasionally ivory or bone filings are found integrated into the black paste, giving it some sparkly appearance. The quality of the paste (i.e. whether it shows cracks or shrinkage) differs from instrument to instrument. On one of the Italian guitars that I have restored (from the first half of the 17th century) the paste looked very 'homogenous', with hardly any defects and of very even consistency which is particularly noticeable in the thinnest veins of the ornament. Because I needed to replace some missing bits of the paste (in the ring of ivory rhombi around the sound hole that were imbedded into it ), I took a small sample and placed it in a few drops of water. Very quickly it broke into floating black particles (most evidently ebony) giving some light brown tint to the water - strong indication that the paste is based on glue as a binding substance. So again, no signs of non-water based ingredients here. On my own reproductions of 5-course guitars with Italian style ornaments I use fine ebony dust mixed with isinglass glue and I never had problems with it (such as cracks, shrinkage etc). The grooves in the soundboard, before putting in the paste, are
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
- Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc I just got an answer from a well-known Austrian gun manufacturer. In fact the walnut was used because of its dampening characteristics - in old times, when the shaft did enclose the barrel and had to transport backstroke energy to the shoulder... While in no way trying to undermine the expertise of the gun manufacturer, I find it difficult to grasp the idea that the dampening characteristics of walnut (bearing in mind that the backstroke energy is transmitted to the shoulder along, not across, the grain of the wood) are really at play here. Common sense suggests that the mass of the gunstock would certainly be more important in lessening the back stroke momentum of energy after the gun is fired (i.e. the heavier the gunstock the better)! ... Unless, of course, the gun manufacturer can present some damping rate figures demonstrating walnut's superiority against other common varieties of woods ... Modern weapons are contructed differently. For precison guns only aluminium, carbon fibre etc. are used to achieve supreme stiffness. Walnut is still used as a tradition in hunting weapons. I think tradition is the key to this issue ;) --- Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartoli lets it blast
- Original Message - From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 8:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartoli lets it blast I have uploaded (for a short time) a shortened version (copyright...) sung by Marina Comparato. There is a way to sing the coloraturas with proper pitch. www.jsbach.mynetcologne.de/armataeface.mp3 Not only with a proper pitch but in a more relaxed and enjoyable manner too! There was an interesting interview on BBC's Radio4 programme 'Word of Mouth' a couple of weeks ago with a professional voice coach who explained that we tend to perceive (and evaluate) other peoples voices as good sounding / not disturbing etc if they speak (or sing for that matter) by breathing with their abdomen or diaphragm rather than 'higher up' areas. She also suggested some simple exercise to enhance this diaphragmal way of voice formation. Listening to a number of tracks by Bartoli on youtube it just seems that she sings mainly with 'her throat'; rather suppressed way of singing really. Yes, she is gifted, virtuosic but that's it really ... again, perhaps not to everyone ... AB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: bending mother of pearl etc
I never believed myself that MOP can be bent although I remember to have read in one of 19th century craftsman's hand books that MOP can be soaked in vinegar and then bent ... but I never tried this though. Could that be a joke!? Perhaps as you've suggested the best way would be to cut the piece from thick enough chunk of MOP. I remember seeing a really unique exhibition of carvings in MOP and some of the subjects were an inch or more deep! I even asked the craftsman where he gets the MOP shells from but I don't remember now (it was some 15 years ago). Alexander - Original Message - From: van Geest Gitaar Luitbouw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: bending mother of pearl etc Dear Christopher, MOP cant be bend. You can only do that with bone (and maybe ivory). If you bend MOP it will break. So the trick is to get a thick enough piece of MOP and inlay it in the open spot. Glue it and file it down to the fingerboard afterwards. Yours, Ernstjan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a couple of questions about home-made bridges
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] a couple of questions about home-made bridges ... Would it be better to have a bridge with a bigger area - for a stronger joint and more area to transmit sound? (But early guitars have small bridges?) Good question, Stuart. It all really depends on the quality of your instrument and how 'authentically' it's constructed. So in your case (as of your mentioning of 'an inexpensive oud') it won't probably be so terribly important if the bridge is wider than 'normal'. Whether the bridge and its gluing area is bigger or smaller, it would have no difference on the amount of energy of the vibrating string that is transmitted to the soundboard. What is more important is its mass. Slimmer / lighter bridge will result in rising the frequency of some particular modes of vibrating soundboard, while fatter / heavier bridge to lowering those modes. Or, in other words, lighter bridge will enhance higher frequencies, heavier one - lower. Instrument with a lighter bridge will also be quicker to respond to a plucked string, with a heavier - slower. Old makers have probably arrived at some optimum parameters of bridges on lutes and guitars purely empirically, aiming at what works best for the sort of sound they and / or their customers favoured most. Those bridges are, as a rule, rather slim and made of sufficiently dense but lighter varieties of wood (fruit woods seem to be mostly common). So the best approach would be to follow the examples of such surviving original bridges (not so many of them unfortunately). And by fitting 'inappropriately' proportioned bridge to either old instrument or authentically constructed new one it's perfectly possible to virtually ruin their sound! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute radio
There were some occasional skips in the very beginning of a few pieces. Otherwise, the sound is quite nice (considering 24kbps bitrate). Great idea, Davide. Looking forward for more of your shoutcasts! Alexander - Original Message - From: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute radio Thanks, I think is agreat idea too, I'm already thinking of using the service you said nancy, I will look at it as soon as possible! I'm online now for a trial, anyone who wants can try and tell me if all go ok Thanks Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
- Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting ... For your rhymes to work, his name would have to be Karamoxov, or some such. Dostoevsky wouldn't have appreciated this :( How about: Karamazov, Stingov, Dowlandov (the stress on the penultimate syllable in the last one is permissible in Russian). Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! So what do they do use lots of drums and oriental instruments like hammered dulcimers etc. Hammered dulcimer is as 'HIP' as it can only be (for the 15th - 16th century European music) and may not even be, as is widely believed, of 'oriental' origin ... Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:56 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! Take it easy I don't think our little debate hear will change the course of this CD reception. Good publicity is a very rare occurance. That's right and lets be thankful to the guy admitting the end of 'message in a bottle' sort of dribble! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! But I would not listen to the Early music show next month where his live concert will be broadcast he is planning to play some of his pop stuff on the lute. I wouldn't either ... unless this lady will trumpet his voice part ;)) http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/newgenerations/balsom.shtml Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:16 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!! It seems he will be playing Message in a bottle especially for you. Thanks Mark, from now on I'm all ears! ... For me, singing is a spiritual journey. I'm devoutly musical. As for my voice, I'd say it's become more mature. Encrypted with life, it's developed texture,â? he says. I suppose he was doing a good deal of humming Ooohmm to his archlute before his voice gained the necessary texture. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hear Sting Dowland CD at amazon.de
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Hear Sting Dowland CD at amazon.de ... We are getting add requests from death metal, gothic, hip-hop, folk, country and classical listeners. The reaction we most often hear is that they have never heard anything like what we are playing. Which probably shows that most of the attempts of the early music world to get young people interested in this music have failed. Perhaps something what these guys did would be worth to explore too: http://www.sabbatum.com/ Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: One marking in Saizenay ms, theorbo tab?
- Original Message - From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] One marking in Saizenay ms, theorbo tab? Dear collective wisdom, in the Saizenay ms. there is is a marking in one theorbo piece that is (probably) borrowed from guitar tabulature signs. In the beginning of the Chaconne, in page 288, there is the chord progression named pour la Chaconne, where the writer has used eight notes after the chords. The notes are pointing upwards - I mean the flag is up. I suppose that means that you have to stroke the chord with one finger. But what about the direction? How is in (French) mixed guitar alfabeto? Note pointing up - a stroke from bass to discant or the opposite? Or perhaps that marking in theorbo tabulature means something else? Your interpretation seems more than reasonable and is in line with how an upward stroke appears in guitar pieces of Mr de Visee himself (who is so widely featured in the MS). Also there doesn't seem to be any point in placing 'quavers' at the beginning of this chord progression example and at the start of the bars if an upward pointing flag was there for some other reason ... I would think. An upward stroke is from the first string up, towards the chin ;0) PS BTW, at the the of the Chaconne the final variation has interesting division of quarter notes to 5! .. distracted by the passing by ladies perhaps ;)) Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtbrM4OekrE not actually a lute...but a good technique indeed! Paolo Talking about technique, who would venture to surpass this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn99rAAgX4search=gerardo%20nunez To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Police
try this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbndgwfG22kmode=relatedsearch= Yes, it's nice! ... although more like a trick really which many would be able to repeat with a bit of practice. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Police
great, but how silly the girls are to applaude during the piece and not afterwards ;-)) BH Quite ... if only all camera men were interested in guitar technique }; To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Police
How's this? http://www.devilducky.com/media/31482/ Chris Yes, he's a nice guy. Baroque guitar players who want to play alfabeto music should probably start here :)) http://www.ukuleledisco.com/jakestrum?PHPSESSID=4d099ed6d2ae8481da37aa32f137c6eb To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Police
How's this? http://www.devilducky.com/media/31482/ Chris Yes, he's a nice guy. Baroque guitar players who want to play alfabeto music should probably start here :)) http://www.ukuleledisco.com/jakestrum?PHPSESSID= 4d099ed6d2ae8481da37aa32f137c6eb To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frets
- Original Message - From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 10:04 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Frets My French Sor is loaned out (never should've done that), so let's quote from second hand (English) Sor: I therefore require that the height of the nut shall have the same relation with the height of the first fret, as the latter has with the second fret; for, in proportion as the frets approach the lower end of the finger-board, they should progressively diminish. Thank you Paul, that's exactly the sort of sentence I was expecting: one can draw whatever conclusion they like from it! Although doubtful but it may just be that the original wording in French is more promising. So when you have your copy back, do let us know. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
- Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration? ... On the other hand it could just be another example of the old makers working very quickly and even sloppily, taking care only for the important aspects of the work and not being (as we tend to be) obsessed by right angles and straight lines. I think of the 1592 Venere lute in Bologna - a very beautiful, decorated instrument where the pegbox is glued on at the crazy angle (i.e., the centre line of the pegbox is nowhere near parallel with the centre line of the neck). Some things just don't matter. How true indeed this is! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
which would in this case be associated with the presence of a fair amount of soundboard wood seems to be as a good idea: original soundboards of baroque guitars which have survived untouched by later conversions (not many of those unfortunately) are c.3.0mm plus in some areas. And just the last bit: I'm currently restoring a rare mid-18th century guitar which is attributed to Francisco Sanguino (perhaps even one of the earliest surviving guitars of this maker, there are six - seven of them in all). The soundboard and the bridge of this instrument have truly remarkable 'record' of wear marks on them from which one can almost re-construct the way it was played: With the palm of the right hand perpendicular to the strings, little and very much possibly ring finger both resting on the bridge, alternating strokes with i and m fingers, perhaps with nails (two really deep elongated marks are just next to the edge of the bridge) Was this their ideal type of stroke for an optimum sound? With a possible original string length c.71cm and frighteningly close spacing in-between individual strings in courses ... quite possibly so! That's where a bridge on which the strings rests (guitar) comes into play: a string 'bouning' on a bridge will give more energy to the sound board than a string 'sliding' on that bridge . I just want to repeat again that there is no principal difference between the classical / romantic guitar and the lute type of bridge here. And if strings, as you say, start either 'bouncing' or 'sliding' or both on the bridge (or rather saddle) then it would be better to take the instrument to a local maker to fix. But what do I know about physics? Perhaps a plucked string will very quickly vibrate in all directions alike, so it doesn't matter in what direction we pluck it initially? Or perhaps the sound board wants to flex in all directions, not just up and down? So hence my question. I don't know very much either, hence so many words ... Alexander Batov To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frets
On Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:58 AM Paul Pleijsier wrote: Looking back to the past I always wondered what one F. Sor was talking about, as he seemed to advocate diminishing fret height (strange strange..). Would be helpful if you could give the exact quote of what this noble gentlemen had to say. I guess the old makers used straight necks and put the relief into the frets. Wouldn't it be as an odd sort of practice on the first rather tiny T-shape frets? Alexander -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration? But if you slowly draw a bow and arrow and then release it, the arrow will travel just as fast as if you drew it quickly. The initial addressing of the string can be slow, but the stroke itself must be quick, like a mousetrap, or touching a hot stove, as one teacher once put it. Beginning practice of producing single notes to refine one's tone as an early student should be intentionally slowed down, at least the initial part of the action. Also, has anyone mentioned the fact that we're talking about TWO strings here? I think if you displace the strings sideways rather than toward the soundboard you are actually displacing one string more than the other. Also, if they are vibrating sideways, there's much more chance of them striking each other, a real possibility, for example, with the bass strings of a large lute. When contemporary luters recommended playing deeply into the mouth of the lute I think they may have been telling students to depress the strings into the soundboard. In any event, practice certainly confirms the fact that on a lute one achieves a much rounder, fuller tone by depressing the string toward the soundboard rather than dissplacing it sideways. Cheers, Jim I agree with what you say. The stroke itself must be quick is the key point here, otherwise we'd just be listening to silence ): The thing is that the original question then was not correct, so instead of What direction should the strings get their maximum vibration for an optimum tone? it should perhaps be: What direction should the strings be plucked in for an optimum tone? Then we'd have no quibbles ... But to answer the original question: it doesn't matter (at least from the point of view of how the energy from vibrating string is transmitted to the bridge) which way / plan strings 'choose' to vibrate in after they've been plucked (either with the intention at production of an 'optimum tone' in mind or whatever ...). Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
Alexander Batov wrote that the question should be: What direction should the strings be plucked in for an optimum tone? And what is the Just down to earth physics answer to that question? David If physics, or physicists for that matter, start to meddle with matters like that we'd better put our lutes aside :) Players who play with a beautiful sound, I suppose, just do it. So you'd better ask them how. I've answered your original question which is a kind of down to earth physics one. And if my answer doesn't satisfy you, I do apologise. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
All these emails seem to misrepresent the intentions of the writers. Let's start afresh. I am very happy with the response you gave me. It showed me I didn't understand all of the physics involved. Flexing of the top by means of fluctuating energy imparted by the string to the bridge. Very good. Here the direction of the attack of the string doesn't matter. Very clear. That's the sustain part of the sound, I suppose. Thank you, David. At least this one is cleared. But Paul's experiment, and many players' experiences, show that the angle of plucking does influence the sound. I've no idea what other player's experiences or experiments were like, so can't comment on those. Unfortunately Paul's experiment doesn't involve plucking as such and so, in my view, is rather irrelevant to this discussion. In his own words: (quote) Don't play like you're used to. Just try to make the string move parallel to the soundboard. You can do it by pulling it sideways with two fingers (one over, one under the string) and releasing it. If you got it right, you'll hear almost NO sound, despite quite formidable string movement ... (end of quote). What I realise from this description is that it doesn't even presupposes quick release of the string to provide it with the necessary impulse of energy after it's pulled sideways. And wouldn't the effect be the same if the pulling is made in the upward direction? As Jim pointed out earlier, the stroke itself must be quick. If we want to carry out a successful experiment in order to investigate which way of plucking is more favourable we've got to actually imitate plucking, not trying to 'fake' it. And with this in mind lets move further. Why? Is it the attack of the sound we influence? And how? On an instrument with a bridge on which the strings rest (guitar) I imagine the string to 'bounce' on the bridge, giving lots of energy through the bridge to the top. Parallel vibrations just make the string 'slide' over that bridge. My imagination, I know, but what of it? A parallel plucking motion gives almost no volume. Then what about all the fluctuating and flexing going on? Is the attack needed to set the bridge in motion? Cannot imagne that, somehow. What I think is happening here is this: when the plucking force (or at least some part of it) is directed towards the soundboard , the initial impulse of pressure transmits via the string to the bridge and causes it to tilt forward, thus initiating its 'favourable' rocking movement (from back to front). The degree of this initial displacement would be comparably far greater in the direction perpendicular to the soundboard surface (because of the greater flexibility of the soundboard / bridge structure in this direction) than parallel to it. So this greater initial, as you say, attack needed to set the bridge in motion is what indeed may help to 'kick off' the sound, subsequently making it fuller, louder etc. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strings: direction of vibration?
On Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:29 PM LGS-Europe wrote: What direction should the strings get their maximum vibration for an optimum tone? Parallel to the sound board, perpendicular (at a right angle with the sound board) or something in between? This doesn't matter. The stings stretch (points of max deviation) and relax (when they come through the point of 'no vibration' - straight line) and thus transmit the vibration energy to the bridge, so that it moves in a 'rocking' way of motion (not up and down) and sends the waives of vibrations along and across the soundboard. And do people feel there is a difference between instruments with single strings and double strings? From what point of view? And between instruments with a bridge on which the string rest (classical guitar) and instruments where the strings are only tied to the bridge (lute)? In the context of your question, again this doesn't matter (in both cases, strings are _tied_ to the bridge). What mainly matters here is the distance from the string(s) to the soundboard (i.e. the larger the distance the more energy from vibrating string is transmitted to the soundboard). David - not trying to start a war, just curious about people's believes and convictions Beliefs and convictions ...? Just down to earth physics. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
