[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
I guess I'm your boy.
I taught myself guitar,A starting at age 9 (having started 'cello the
previous year)A and played mostly folk styles (including Travis
picking). Never once was I able to play with a finger grounded on the
guitar top plate.
At about 21, I taught myself classical guitar, largely through tab from
Fredrick Noad' so book. I had already been reading Holborn from
Kanizowa(sp?) on guitar,A capo 3 g-string down a half tone.
When I got home from the cruise (USN) my wide revealed that she'd had
classical guitar lessons (Fredrick Hand) and approved of my hand
position,A and showed me exercises she'd been given for rest stroke.
In about 1980, we started playing with UCONN's Collegial,A under
BruceA Bellingham. They had a reality,A but it was perpetually on
loan.A I restrict the 13-course lute as a re-enter,A Holborn tuning
and confident diaphanous from there down. I used guitar technique,A
and it sucked.A i sucked worse at soprano Shawn,A so it may be
understandable that I got a pass.A (Although I was the inspiration for
remarks about letting and pillaging,A andA 'from the sublime to the
ridiculous.)
To make a 51-year story short(er),A bent-wrist rest-stop technique on
lute is self-defeating.A The described banana finger technique makes
the string sound better. PERIOD.
We all know that Bream largely used guitar technique and did well
(enough to bring many of us to the lute.) He also had a guitar - style
saddle and bridge,A nylon and silk and over spun strings,A etc.
On Aug 3, 2014 12:04 PM, "Tony" <[1]ascbrigh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
A A This thread has inspired A a heretical thought about playing
baroque
A A lute - I can imagine it sounding ok without pinky A on
soundboard and A a
A A modified guitar-style technique. I haven't tried out my heresy
(I would
A A misjudge the bass-courses without the pinky to help judge
distances),
A A but with a more secure thumb technique than i currently have
. I
A A guess someone somewhere has tried it, and I would be curious to
know to
A A what extent it works
A A On Ren lute I aim to do exactly what David suggests, bendy
banana
A A fingers and all. I actually can (and at first did) play a Ren
lute with
A A guitar technique though the sound is in comparison a bit
disappointing
A A
A __
A A From: David van Ooijen <[2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
A A To: lutelist Net <[3]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
A A Sent: Tuesday, 29 July 2014, 6:17
A A Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
A A A Necessity of pinky on top is not the answer to why it's
there. On
A A A R-lute, if you hold your hand in such a manner that the
thumb has a
A A A good angle of striking both strings of a pair, and do
likewise with
A A A your index finger, all relaxed, thumb-inside, hand a little
cupped,
A A A fingers like slightly bend bananas, your pinky is bound to
touch the
A A A top, unless you'd stick it out to prevent it touching. It's
not the
A A top
A A A of the pinky that rests like a crutch on the top, but the
last digit
A A A that gently slides along as the hand moves up and down in
alternating
A A A thumb-index stroke.
A A A David
A A A ***
A A A David van Ooijen
A A A [1][1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
A A A [2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
A A A ***
A A A On 29 July 2014 06:34, howard posner
<[3][2][6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
A A wrote:
A A A On Jul 28, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Mayes, Joseph
<[4][3][7]ma...@rowan.edu>
A A wrote:
A A A > Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred
cows is
A A A somehow not the best idea, and the floodgates open!
A A A A Well, the writer said (and not in passing a it was the
sole subject
A A A A of his post) that resting the little finger on the top
was a
A A A A "crutch" and "undeveloped right-hand technique," because
he didn't
A A A A understand that it was a considered and common part of
lute
A A A A technique; a little like telling a horn player to get his
hand out
A A A A of the bell because it might affect the sound, or telling
an
A A A A electric guitar player "it's insane to stick electrical
wires in a
A A A A guitar! Unplug that damn thing before you get
electrocuted, you
A A A A fool!." A The writer lacked basic information, and it'
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Dear Chris, You're quite right - the lap holding posture of the six string guitar by some early 19th century guitarists does indeed pre-date Tarrega. In fact I've a couple of engravings in my collection showing two of them adopting this position: one is the same Carcassi depiction you mention (which I must say looks most uncomfortable indeed with a very upright posture etc - perhaps set up for a fashionable depiction rather than practical playing, rather like the photograph of Frederic Brand c 1850- see Bone p 64); but the other is more telling. It depicts Jules(sic) Regondi: also holding the guitar in the lap but with the extension (silver I believe) he used on the little finger to enable his hand to play in a more extreme thumb out position than most whilst still resting on the belly. I should have emphasised that I was really speaking about holding the lute. And I agree with you that no modern 'baroque' lute player appears to adopt a "historically accurate hand position" as you put it - other than your good self of course. Martyn __ From: Christopher Wilke To: Martin Shepherd ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ; Martyn Hodgson Sent: Tuesday, 5 August 2014, 17:08 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Martyn, On Mon, 8/4/14, Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >Moreover, iconography etc also clearly > shows that the lute (and theorbo >etc) were played in a higher (ie up the > stomach) position than the >modern guitar which, after Tarrega, is > commonly nowadays rested low >down in the lap. If such a modern guitar > posture is adopted it does, of >course, make it harder to play with the > historically accurate hand >position and with the little finger close > to the bridge. The high position is not really an argument in favor of pinky-down. Check out this picture of Matteo Carcassi: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Carcassi#mediaviewer/File:Matteo _Carcassi_(1792-1853).jpg Despite the foot stool, Carcassi is holding the lower bout of his guitar considerably closer to the floor than modern classical guitar players, yet obviously has his pinky planted. (Off topic, it is very difficult to use the "a" finger with Carcassi's position. Personally I believe that all of his famous studies are really intended to develop "claw hammer" technique, although they are not used as such by modern guitar teachers.) Also, I know of no modern baroque lute players using anything close to "historically accurate hand position." Chris -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Carcassi#mediaviewer/File:Matteo_Carcassi_ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Martyn, On Mon, 8/4/14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Moreover, iconography etc also clearly > shows that the lute (and theorbo > etc) were played in a higher (ie up the > stomach) position than the > modern guitar which, after Tarrega, is > commonly nowadays rested low > down in the lap. If such a modern guitar > posture is adopted it does, of > course, make it harder to play with the > historically accurate hand > position and with the little finger close > to the bridge. The high position is not really an argument in favor of pinky-down. Check out this picture of Matteo Carcassi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Carcassi#mediaviewer/File:Matteo_Carcassi_(1792-1853).jpg Despite the foot stool, Carcassi is holding the lower bout of his guitar considerably closer to the floor than modern classical guitar players, yet obviously has his pinky planted. (Off topic, it is very difficult to use the "a" finger with Carcassi's position. Personally I believe that all of his famous studies are really intended to develop "claw hammer" technique, although they are not used as such by modern guitar teachers.) Also, I know of no modern baroque lute players using anything close to "historically accurate hand position." Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Provided they are well fitted and maintained (and strings properly
fastened to them) wooden pegs are, in fact, eminently practical and, of
course, weigh significantly less than metal tuners - a
practical consideration especially with later lutes.
However whilst the precise tuning mechanism employed may not have much
affect on how the music sounds, the matters you raised earlier (like
how and where to pluck) certainly do. It's not only to try and
recapture the sound the 'Old Ones' made but to respect the composer's
intentions and a belief that this provides the best path to
understanding how they expected their music to be heard. J S Bach may,
or may not, have welcomed a modern pianoforte with sustaining pedal but
the fact is that he didn't have one.
Of course, anyone wishing to compose new music employing a different
technique or a different instrument - then good luck! But please bear
in mind that one person's flight of imaginative fancy may well be
another's self-indulgent racket in such a laissez-faire world.
Nowadays we've generally moved on from thinking that instruments and
technique automatically improve ('evolve') over time in a sort of
Darwinian survival of the fittest sense. Much of the success of the
modern early music/period performance movement is a belief that the
musicians of the time knew how to play their music on instruments of
the period and that these instruments were perfectly capable of
producing the sound the musicians required. Of course now, as then,
there are various schools (frequently national) which offer different
interpretations of the same piece and long may they do so!
MH
__
From: Tobiah
To: Martyn Hodgson ; Martin Shepherd
; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Monday, 4 August 2014, 16:37
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
>If we aim to recapture the sound the
>Old Ones made then it is surely right to adopt the same technique
they
>used.
As a fringe exercise, rather like a reenactment of the civil war, I can
see having some interest in duplicating as close as possible, what was
done with the music and instruments during the time that they were
created.
I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching
out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. I've long
lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines
on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather
certain
that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. I guess it's
like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm
more interested in what I will do now that I have one.
As for the technique, and what oil paintings depict, and what
people wrote about at the time, I'd have to wonder what might
have developed had the internet been available and instantaneous
sharing of modified techniques and their results was possible.
There must have been a rather dogmatic "do as I say"
passing of knowledge from teacher to student in the likely small
world of the masters. Of this I know little however as I'm sure
the scholars here will soon point out.
I understand the interest in duplicating old practices, but see
a disproportionately small push to further evolve and modify aspects of
performance and instruments taking advantage of the modern availability
of
technologies and knowledge that we now have.
Perhaps I will now be flooded by videos of people who do just
that. I'll welcome it. I'm just a fringe lurker on the world
of the lute player, so be gentle in correcting my assertions please.
Tobiah
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
As Nancy's sometime dueting partner, let me just say that I appreciate them, too. Sean On Aug 4, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: About the pegs - guitar tuning pegs would be so heavy that the instruments would be listing toward the left in our laps. Fortunately the Peghead people have pegs that works well on lutes, vihuelas and orpharions. http://www.pegheds.com/ I have peg heads on one of my orpharions and love them. They look like regular lute pegs and the tuning is a dream. They are especially nice with my wire strings - now I spend more time playing and less time tuning. The tiny gears inside the peg are configured so that you turn the peg something like 3 times more than a wooden peg. There are a couple of other people with Pegheads on the luts list - Dan Winheld is not a fan of them, but Ed Martin has them on a baroque lute and he likes them. > > > I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching > out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. I've long > lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines > on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather > certain > that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. I guess it's > like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm > more interested in what I will do now that I have one. > > Tobiah > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 www.groundsanddivisions.info www.nancycarlinassociates.com
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Tobiah- "I've long lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather certain that the old masters would have joyously adopted them." Respectfully, I don't think so. Anyway, on this point you are a day late and a dollar short. Check out these planetary gear pegs on Dan Larson's website: http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/news/mechanical-pegs-now-available-at-gamut-music.html - As to the ordinary machine heads used on modern guitars- try this experiment. Pull all the pegs out of an 11 course lute. Now get enough sets & individual machine gears to equal the 20 strings and hang all this hardware on your pegbox. Now try to hold your lute. Case closed; unless you are used to holding & playing the largest continuo theorbi horizontally for hours at a stretch or regularly curl 50 lb. dumbbells with your left hand. Then the aesthetics of machine gears on a lute? Sorry, NO COMMENT! -While I appreciate your comment comparing slavish copying of traditional techniques to the civil war re-enactor, it is most certainly not a call that the beginner has any standing to make. The old techniques are not a "fringe exercise" - modern ones are; and are fine when they work, but It would take a face-to-face hands on session to show you how I have pushed the old techniques a bit in my own playing. Going through the learning process of becoming fluent, comfortable, and just plain musically competent on old instruments without first undergoing a THOROUGH grounding in the original techniques is asking for a lifetime of trouble- not only bad playing but serious injury. I know this from personal experience; 18 months of right forearm tendonitis (tendinosis now the more correct term for long term, post-inflammatory condition) using Segovia style technique on the wrong instruments. Kind of like advanced weapons training or wooden dummy practice in Wing Chun Kung Fu without having first mastered the three basic forms; which can take several years. So to BEGIN this learning task properly, clip your nails, put that pinky DOWN- go slowly, relaxed, but strong & clean in your first playing of a lute. It is not a classical, Flamenco, or any kind of guitar. You can modify things much later when you are used to the instrument; if need & curiosity impel you. Different instruments, different techniques/feel- face that basic fact or fail. Dan On 8/4/2014 8:37 AM, Tobiah wrote: If we aim to recapture the sound the Old Ones made then it is surely right to adopt the same technique they used. As a fringe exercise, rather like a reenactment of the civil war, I can see having some interest in duplicating as close as possible, what was done with the music and instruments during the time that they were created. I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. I've long lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather certain that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. I guess it's like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm more interested in what I will do now that I have one. As for the technique, and what oil paintings depict, and what people wrote about at the time, I'd have to wonder what might have developed had the internet been available and instantaneous sharing of modified techniques and their results was possible. There must have been a rather dogmatic "do as I say" passing of knowledge from teacher to student in the likely small world of the masters. Of this I know little however as I'm sure the scholars here will soon point out. I understand the interest in duplicating old practices, but see a disproportionately small push to further evolve and modify aspects of performance and instruments taking advantage of the modern availability of technologies and knowledge that we now have. Perhaps I will now be flooded by videos of people who do just that. I'll welcome it. I'm just a fringe lurker on the world of the lute player, so be gentle in correcting my assertions please. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
aYes, Nancy is correct. A I do use pegheds on my 11-course baroque lute, and my vihuela as well. A They are absolutely marvelous, a new revelation in tuning. A One can tune easily, more accurately than before, and much quicker. A a On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Nancy Carlin <[1]na...@nancycarlinassociates.com> wrote: About the pegs - guitar tuning pegs would be so heavy that the instruments would be listing toward the left in our laps. Fortunately the Peghead people have pegs that works well on lutes, vihuelas and orpharions. [2]http://www.pegheds.com/ I have peg heads on one of my orpharions and love them. They look like regular lute pegs and the tuning is a dream. A They are especially nice with my wire strings - now I spend more time playing and less time tuning. A The tiny gears inside the peg are configured so that you turn the peg something like 3 times more than a wooden peg. There are a couple of other people with Pegheads on the luts list - Dan Winheld is not a fan of them, but Ed Martin has them on a baroque lute and he likes them. I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. A I've long lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines on a lute for example. A Had they been available at the time, I'm rather certain that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. A I guess it's like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm more interested in what I will do now that I have one. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA [5]925 / 686-5800 [6]www.groundsanddivisions.info [7]www.nancycarlinassociates.com -- References 1. mailto:na...@nancycarlinassociates.com 2. http://www.pegheds.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org/ 5. tel:925%20%2F%20686-5800 6. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 7. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
About the pegs - guitar tuning pegs would be so heavy that the instruments would be listing toward the left in our laps. Fortunately the Peghead people have pegs that works well on lutes, vihuelas and orpharions. http://www.pegheds.com/ I have peg heads on one of my orpharions and love them. They look like regular lute pegs and the tuning is a dream. They are especially nice with my wire strings - now I spend more time playing and less time tuning. The tiny gears inside the peg are configured so that you turn the peg something like 3 times more than a wooden peg. There are a couple of other people with Pegheads on the luts list - Dan Winheld is not a fan of them, but Ed Martin has them on a baroque lute and he likes them. I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. I've long lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather certain that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. I guess it's like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm more interested in what I will do now that I have one. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 www.groundsanddivisions.info www.nancycarlinassociates.com
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
I think one of the theories of researching and attempting to emulate the techniques of the old days is to shake us out of our complacency with the current way of doing things, much as taking apart an oboe and bassoon and playing just the reed (extended techniques) is a way to shake up musicians who are "stuck" in the current techniques. Of course not everyone wants to play this game, which requires research and experimentation skills, and time. Many people are very happy to go to school and pay someone to tell them exactly how to perform their art. These days there is a well defined "old style" of playing the lute that you can learn without doing any research or experimentation yourself. When we look at a lot of old pictures of people playing the lute in a certain era and a certain place we see a certain consistency. We see a lot of rh little fingers sticking out near the bridge, but we can't easily tell whether they are firmly planted or just making occasional light contact. We can't tell how long the fingernails are or the gauge and pitch of the strings. So exactly how the old ones played is a puzzle with pieces missing. Another sociological question is that of peer pressure in the lute world. Why do some people feel defensive, or why are they persecuted for applying a contemporary or 100 year old technique to a much older instrument? Why are there so few electric archlutes? There is a thesis for your PHD degree! Wayne Begin forwarded message: > From: Tobiah > >>If we aim to recapture the sound the >>Old Ones made then it is surely right to adopt the same technique they >>used. > > As a fringe exercise, rather like a reenactment of the civil war, I can > see having some interest in duplicating as close as possible, what was > done with the music and instruments during the time that they were created. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
If we aim to recapture the sound the Old Ones made then it is surely right to adopt the same technique they used. As a fringe exercise, rather like a reenactment of the civil war, I can see having some interest in duplicating as close as possible, what was done with the music and instruments during the time that they were created. I sometimes get a sense however that there is some taboo in searching out new adaptations of lute music or lutes themselves. I've long lamented the apparent resistance of using modern tuning machines on a lute for example. Had they been available at the time, I'm rather certain that the old masters would have joyously adopted them. I guess it's like asking what Bach would have done if he had a pedal. I'm more interested in what I will do now that I have one. As for the technique, and what oil paintings depict, and what people wrote about at the time, I'd have to wonder what might have developed had the internet been available and instantaneous sharing of modified techniques and their results was possible. There must have been a rather dogmatic "do as I say" passing of knowledge from teacher to student in the likely small world of the masters. Of this I know little however as I'm sure the scholars here will soon point out. I understand the interest in duplicating old practices, but see a disproportionately small push to further evolve and modify aspects of performance and instruments taking advantage of the modern availability of technologies and knowledge that we now have. Perhaps I will now be flooded by videos of people who do just that. I'll welcome it. I'm just a fringe lurker on the world of the lute player, so be gentle in correcting my assertions please. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Dear Martin, I think you're quite right: With lute bridges (ie with low compared to modern guitar string take-off height) there really is no difficulty in placing the little finger on the belly (Kapsberger - not exactly a novice - placed his third finger on the belly too!). If we aim to recapture the sound the Old Ones made then it is surely right to adopt the same technique they used. After all they were not unaware of not resting the little finger on the belly but clearly choose to do so. With regard to the hand position: as you say, most historical evidence is that a close to bridge plucking position was generally favoured. Moreover, iconography etc also clearly shows that the lute (and theorbo etc) were played in a higher (ie up the stomach) position than the modern guitar which, after Tarrega, is commonly nowadays rested low down in the lap. If such a modern guitar posture is adopted it does, of course, make it harder to play with the historically accurate hand position and with the little finger close to the bridge. Incidentally, I use the little finger down with all my lutes including my largest theorbo which, with a stopped string length of 98cm, is not exactly small, and I find no difficulty in doing so - in short there's no reason not to use the historically correct hand position on the larger lutes too. It is, of course, necessary to hold the instrument reasonably high up - I rest it on my right thigh (not in the lap!) and employ a strap. Martyn __ From: Martin Shepherd To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 3 August 2014, 18:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Dear Louis and All, Thanks Louis for this analysis of hand/arm position, which I think is correct. I have (of course) two points of dissent! First, if the height of the bridge is as low as it is on most historical lutes, putting the little finger down somewhere is easy to do and is a reassurance (and a hangover from earlier technique) which it seems was common. Second, you say you're playing next to the rose - why not next to the bridge? The old guys did this, and also (and I can understand why) tended to rest the little finger on or behind the bridge - if behind the bridge, you avoid some of the problems of RH stretch in dealing with 13/14 course instruments. I suspect the reason most modern lutenists don't play close to the bridge is they use a string tension which is way too high, which is a thought I will leave in the air, as it were... Best wishes, Martin On 03/08/2014 18:51, Louis Aull wrote: >Tony, > > >It really depends on the angle your arm enters the soundboard and the >length of your pinky relative to the index finger. If your arm enters >the lute top well behind the bridge, the pinky naturally falls on the >sound board. So it makes a good anchor point for finding the strings as >well as keeping the lute in position. > > >As the baroque necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the weight >of the neck could be eased by raising the neck toward your head. >Unfortunately that changes the angle your forearm comfortably makes >with the bridge. Watch some of the hot shots and you will see what >compromise they have reached between the two. Also watch the pinky lift >on the big chords that involve both the very top and bottom strings. > > >As my lutes got bigger I found my pinky raising more and more often, >and eventually I stopped putting it down. One learns how to place the >thumb for each chord without putting down a pinky by the relative >position to the other fingers. My arm now enters the lute soundboard >from a position directly above the bridge and I pluck the strings just >below the rosette. The lute rests between my legs with a 45 degree neck >angle to my body. I have to warm up a bit for my right hand to >correctly find the basses, but after that I just recognize the chord >and the thumb finds the note. A big benefit of this position is I sit >upright in the chair and both arms find a comfortable position, >allowing me to play longer, without shoulder or wrist discomfort. With >the pinky up you can tolerate a taller bridge and closer spaced >strings. > > >My swan neck I play now has an beautiful englemann spruce top with no >finish, touching it for any reason leaves a mark. > > >Louis Aull > > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Pinky down anywhere does nothing to improve the sound acoustically. I
imagine it could, theoretically, degrade it slightly if one really
leaned on it for some reason. But on the Baroque lute (not on R-lute for
me) it can help beginners find their way around. But once you get into
some heavy duty playing, it does nothing but tie up the hand &
interfere. There are plenty of Weiss pieces where the thumb is down
(up!) in the sub bass on courses 13, 12, 11; and you have i,m,&a playing
courses 4 and lower. Guess where your pinky isn't.
To play devil's advocate, one of my Baroque lute students asked
Hopkinson Smith at the master class held in my living room if playing
with pinky off the lute was OK with him. Of course it was. And the
occasional touch down by accident, or design for orientation, or to gain
some momentary leverage is still just fine also.
If the playing is clean, clear, beautiful, and accurate, don't worry
about where the performer's little finger is, or isn't. This whole
thread reminds me of the old Buddhist cliche popularized by Bruce Lee-
"Do not be distracted by the finger that points to the moon!"
OK, I'm done with this finger business.
N.B. I have sometimes used my little finger to play a note in a 5 note
chord.
Dan
On 8/3/2014 8:59 AM, Tony wrote:
This thread has inspired a heretical thought about playing baroque
lute - I can imagine it sounding ok without pinky on soundboard and a
modified guitar-style technique. I haven't tried out my heresy (I would
misjudge the bass-courses without the pinky to help judge distances),
but with a more secure thumb technique than i currently have . I
guess someone somewhere has tried it, and I would be curious to know to
what extent it works
On Ren lute I aim to do exactly what David suggests, bendy banana
fingers and all. I actually can (and at first did) play a Ren lute with
guitar technique though the sound is in comparison a bit disappointing
__
From: David van Ooijen
To: lutelist Net
Sent: Tuesday, 29 July 2014, 6:17
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Necessity of pinky on top is not the answer to why it's there. On
R-lute, if you hold your hand in such a manner that the thumb has a
good angle of striking both strings of a pair, and do likewise with
your index finger, all relaxed, thumb-inside, hand a little cupped,
fingers like slightly bend bananas, your pinky is bound to touch the
top, unless you'd stick it out to prevent it touching. It's not the
top
of the pinky that rests like a crutch on the top, but the last digit
that gently slides along as the hand moves up and down in alternating
thumb-index stroke.
David
***
David van Ooijen
[1][1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On 29 July 2014 06:34, howard posner<[3][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
wrote:
On Jul 28, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Mayes, Joseph<[4][3]ma...@rowan.edu>
wrote:
> Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred cows is
somehow not the best idea, and the floodgates open!
Well, the writer said (and not in passing a it was the sole subject
of his post) that resting the little finger on the top was a
"crutch" and "undeveloped right-hand technique," because he didn't
understand that it was a considered and common part of lute
technique; a little like telling a horn player to get his hand out
of the bell because it might affect the sound, or telling an
electric guitar player "it's insane to stick electrical wires in a
guitar! Unplug that damn thing before you get electrocuted, you
fool!." A The writer lacked basic information, and it's a function
of this group to disseminate information. A So I don't think you've
got much cause to be zowieing.
> In all of this justification for using the pinky on the face, I
have
heard nothing by way of explaining why it's necessary.
Not surprising, since nobody in this thread has asked why it's
necessary, which in turn is probably because nobody has said it's
necessary.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[5][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. [6]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
4. mailto:[8]ma...@rowan.edu
5. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2.m
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
The question that is heartily begged, is: With all of this fall-de-rall about where to place the pinky, and how hard it is on baroque instruments or multi-course instruments, and Oh gosh, I have to lift it on occasion to play some things - Why in the world would you put it down in the first place?!? I have played lute for a long, long time and owned lots on instruments. Archlutes, 10 course lutes, vihuelas, renaissance guitars, baroque guitars, etc. etc. etc. Never have I felt the need to place my pinky on the soundboard. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Louis Aull [aul...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 12:51 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Tony, It really depends on the angle your arm enters the soundboard and the length of your pinky relative to the index finger. If your arm enters the lute top well behind the bridge, the pinky naturally falls on the sound board. So it makes a good anchor point for finding the strings as well as keeping the lute in position. As the baroque necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the weight of the neck could be eased by raising the neck toward your head. Unfortunately that changes the angle your forearm comfortably makes with the bridge. Watch some of the hot shots and you will see what compromise they have reached between the two. Also watch the pinky lift on the big chords that involve both the very top and bottom strings. As my lutes got bigger I found my pinky raising more and more often, and eventually I stopped putting it down. One learns how to place the thumb for each chord without putting down a pinky by the relative position to the other fingers. My arm now enters the lute soundboard from a position directly above the bridge and I pluck the strings just below the rosette. The lute rests between my legs with a 45 degree neck angle to my body. I have to warm up a bit for my right hand to correctly find the basses, but after that I just recognize the chord and the thumb finds the note. A big benefit of this position is I sit upright in the chair and both arms find a comfortable position, allowing me to play longer, without shoulder or wrist discomfort. With the pinky up you can tolerate a taller bridge and closer spaced strings. My swan neck I play now has an beautiful englemann spruce top with no finish, touching it for any reason leaves a mark. Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Dear Louis and All, Thanks Louis for this analysis of hand/arm position, which I think is correct. I have (of course) two points of dissent! First, if the height of the bridge is as low as it is on most historical lutes, putting the little finger down somewhere is easy to do and is a reassurance (and a hangover from earlier technique) which it seems was common. Second, you say you're playing next to the rose - why not next to the bridge? The old guys did this, and also (and I can understand why) tended to rest the little finger on or behind the bridge - if behind the bridge, you avoid some of the problems of RH stretch in dealing with 13/14 course instruments. I suspect the reason most modern lutenists don't play close to the bridge is they use a string tension which is way too high, which is a thought I will leave in the air, as it were... Best wishes, Martin On 03/08/2014 18:51, Louis Aull wrote: Tony, It really depends on the angle your arm enters the soundboard and the length of your pinky relative to the index finger. If your arm enters the lute top well behind the bridge, the pinky naturally falls on the sound board. So it makes a good anchor point for finding the strings as well as keeping the lute in position. As the baroque necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the weight of the neck could be eased by raising the neck toward your head. Unfortunately that changes the angle your forearm comfortably makes with the bridge. Watch some of the hot shots and you will see what compromise they have reached between the two. Also watch the pinky lift on the big chords that involve both the very top and bottom strings. As my lutes got bigger I found my pinky raising more and more often, and eventually I stopped putting it down. One learns how to place the thumb for each chord without putting down a pinky by the relative position to the other fingers. My arm now enters the lute soundboard from a position directly above the bridge and I pluck the strings just below the rosette. The lute rests between my legs with a 45 degree neck angle to my body. I have to warm up a bit for my right hand to correctly find the basses, but after that I just recognize the chord and the thumb finds the note. A big benefit of this position is I sit upright in the chair and both arms find a comfortable position, allowing me to play longer, without shoulder or wrist discomfort. With the pinky up you can tolerate a taller bridge and closer spaced strings. My swan neck I play now has an beautiful englemann spruce top with no finish, touching it for any reason leaves a mark. Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Tony, It really depends on the angle your arm enters the soundboard and the length of your pinky relative to the index finger. If your arm enters the lute top well behind the bridge, the pinky naturally falls on the sound board. So it makes a good anchor point for finding the strings as well as keeping the lute in position. As the baroque necks got longer and peg boxes got heavier, the weight of the neck could be eased by raising the neck toward your head. Unfortunately that changes the angle your forearm comfortably makes with the bridge. Watch some of the hot shots and you will see what compromise they have reached between the two. Also watch the pinky lift on the big chords that involve both the very top and bottom strings. As my lutes got bigger I found my pinky raising more and more often, and eventually I stopped putting it down. One learns how to place the thumb for each chord without putting down a pinky by the relative position to the other fingers. My arm now enters the lute soundboard from a position directly above the bridge and I pluck the strings just below the rosette. The lute rests between my legs with a 45 degree neck angle to my body. I have to warm up a bit for my right hand to correctly find the basses, but after that I just recognize the chord and the thumb finds the note. A big benefit of this position is I sit upright in the chair and both arms find a comfortable position, allowing me to play longer, without shoulder or wrist discomfort. With the pinky up you can tolerate a taller bridge and closer spaced strings. My swan neck I play now has an beautiful englemann spruce top with no finish, touching it for any reason leaves a mark. Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
This thread has inspired a heretical thought about playing baroque lute - I can imagine it sounding ok without pinky on soundboard and a modified guitar-style technique. I haven't tried out my heresy (I would misjudge the bass-courses without the pinky to help judge distances), but with a more secure thumb technique than i currently have . I guess someone somewhere has tried it, and I would be curious to know to what extent it works On Ren lute I aim to do exactly what David suggests, bendy banana fingers and all. I actually can (and at first did) play a Ren lute with guitar technique though the sound is in comparison a bit disappointing __ From: David van Ooijen To: lutelist Net Sent: Tuesday, 29 July 2014, 6:17 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Necessity of pinky on top is not the answer to why it's there. On R-lute, if you hold your hand in such a manner that the thumb has a good angle of striking both strings of a pair, and do likewise with your index finger, all relaxed, thumb-inside, hand a little cupped, fingers like slightly bend bananas, your pinky is bound to touch the top, unless you'd stick it out to prevent it touching. It's not the top of the pinky that rests like a crutch on the top, but the last digit that gently slides along as the hand moves up and down in alternating thumb-index stroke. David *** David van Ooijen [1][1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 29 July 2014 06:34, howard posner <[3][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: On Jul 28, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Mayes, Joseph <[4][3]ma...@rowan.edu> wrote: > Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred cows is somehow not the best idea, and the floodgates open! Well, the writer said (and not in passing a it was the sole subject of his post) that resting the little finger on the top was a "crutch" and "undeveloped right-hand technique," because he didn't understand that it was a considered and common part of lute technique; a little like telling a horn player to get his hand out of the bell because it might affect the sound, or telling an electric guitar player "it's insane to stick electrical wires in a guitar! Unplug that damn thing before you get electrocuted, you fool!." A The writer lacked basic information, and it's a function of this group to disseminate information. A So I don't think you've got much cause to be zowieing. > In all of this justification for using the pinky on the face, I have heard nothing by way of explaining why it's necessary. Not surprising, since nobody in this thread has asked why it's necessary, which in turn is probably because nobody has said it's necessary. To get on or off this list see list information at [5][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[5]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. [6]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com 4. mailto:[8]ma...@rowan.edu 5. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 6. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 8. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Necessity of pinky on top is not the answer to why it's there. On R-lute, if you hold your hand in such a manner that the thumb has a good angle of striking both strings of a pair, and do likewise with your index finger, all relaxed, thumb-inside, hand a little cupped, fingers like slightly bend bananas, your pinky is bound to touch the top, unless you'd stick it out to prevent it touching. It's not the top of the pinky that rests like a crutch on the top, but the last digit that gently slides along as the hand moves up and down in alternating thumb-index stroke. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 29 July 2014 06:34, howard posner <[3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: On Jul 28, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Mayes, Joseph <[4]ma...@rowan.edu> wrote: > Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred cows is somehow not the best idea, and the floodgates open! Well, the writer said (and not in passing a it was the sole subject of his post) that resting the little finger on the top was a "crutch" and "undeveloped right-hand technique," because he didn't understand that it was a considered and common part of lute technique; a little like telling a horn player to get his hand out of the bell because it might affect the sound, or telling an electric guitar player "it's insane to stick electrical wires in a guitar! Unplug that damn thing before you get electrocuted, you fool!." A The writer lacked basic information, and it's a function of this group to disseminate information. A So I don't think you've got much cause to be zowieing. > In all of this justification for using the pinky on the face, I have heard nothing by way of explaining why it's necessary. Not surprising, since nobody in this thread has asked why it's necessary, which in turn is probably because nobody has said it's necessary. To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 4. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
On Jul 28, 2014, at 8:16 PM, Mayes, Joseph wrote: > Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred cows is somehow not > the best idea, and the floodgates open! Well, the writer said (and not in passing — it was the sole subject of his post) that resting the little finger on the top was a “crutch" and "undeveloped right-hand technique," because he didn’t understand that it was a considered and common part of lute technique; a little like telling a horn player to get his hand out of the bell because it might affect the sound, or telling an electric guitar player "it’s insane to stick electrical wires in a guitar! Unplug that damn thing before you get electrocuted, you fool!." The writer lacked basic information, and it’s a function of this group to disseminate information. So I don’t think you’ve got much cause to be zowieing. > In all of this justification for using the pinky on the face, I have heard > nothing by way of explaining why it's necessary. Not surprising, since nobody in this thread has asked why it’s necessary, which in turn is probably because nobody has said it’s necessary. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Zowie!! Just mention, in passing that one of the sacred cows is somehow not the best idea, and the floodgates open! In all of this justification for using the pinky on the face, I have heard nothing by way of explaining why it's necessary. Oh yeah, the old guys did it, so it must be the right thing to do - exactly why so many guitarists after Segovia bent their wrists. Just my $.02 Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia [bruno.l...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 1:54 PM To: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Dear Tobiah, You should check jazz guitarist Martin Taylor, he always rests his pinky on the soundboard or the tap plate many archtop guitars have. He plays very difficult polyphonic jazz arrangements. Regards. A A 2014-07-28 14:44 GMT-03:00 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org>: On 07/28/2014 10:33 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/28/2014 10:23 AM, David Rastall wrote: We-ell, not exactly. A The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. A It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. A I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg's Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! A You'll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player's pinkie. A Plus, I certainly wouldn't say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. A Not to mention bluegrass banjo playersa| Fair enough. A I retract my comment! I still want to retain my evaluation of this usage of the pinky as a crutch, however popular it may have been throughout the centuries. A I used it as a youth and outgrew it, and having been on both sides of the fence, and experiencing the benefits and freedoms of having shed it, in that way I stand behind my original statement. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo A Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba. Doutor em PrA!ticas InterpretativasA pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
That abysmal Segovian cocked wrist is largely passé as modern guitarists outgrow the memory of Segovia's influence. It has some holders on among those who still believe Segovia's is THE way. However, most modern players of note (especially the fiery young hotheads who win competitions) opt for a much more natural (and more conducive to long-term functionality) straight-wrist playing position. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 2:16 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. Another thing to consider is the height of the strings above the soundboard - on a modern "classical" guitar, the height is much greater than on a typical renaissance (or baroque) lute, so putting the little finger (pinky) down makes no sense. I think Sor did it, but he had a different guitar. Tongue-not-entirely-in-cheek: if you want to talk about "inefficient" technique, just look at the horrific bend in the wrist which is considered normal on the (classical) guitar, and causes all kinds of problems. Unfortunately our greatest expert has just passed away, and can no longer add his voice Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Same terminology commonly used here in the US regarding the French-polish process . . . but usually followed by a homonymous giggle or snigger. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 11:16 AM To: Geoff Gaherty; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. A 'rubber' in this context isn't an eraser - the other meaning for the term outside the USA - much less a condom! It's a piece of cloth loaded with a finish which is 'rubbed' onto the surface. The terminology is fairly old and also commonly used by French polishers for their spirit finishes. MH __ From: Geoff Gaherty To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, 28 July 2014, 13:03 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. On 2014-07-28, 2:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for >several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Remind us what "rubber" means in the UK. In North America it means "condom"! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [1]http://www.gaherty.ca [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Another thing to consider is the height of the strings above the soundboard - on a modern "classical" guitar, the height is much greater than on a typical renaissance (or baroque) lute, so putting the little finger (pinky) down makes no sense. I think Sor did it, but he had a different guitar. Tongue-not-entirely-in-cheek: if you want to talk about "inefficient" technique, just look at the horrific bend in the wrist which is considered normal on the (classical) guitar, and causes all kinds of problems. Unfortunately our greatest expert has just passed away, and can no longer add his voice Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
"More of a guitar player" Well, it could possibly be that Herbert Ward is more of a LUTE player, in which case pinkie down is not a crutch; in fact most of us aspire to be cripples just like Francesco da Milano, John Dowland, Charles Mouton, Sylvius Weiss, and a whole bunch of other cripples. It's a different instrument. My own lute tops stay clean, because my pinkie (pinky?) only lightly touches down some of the time, but folks is different. I've noticed that amongst even virtuoso non-classical guitarists who employ the plectrum, some have the pinkie down, & some don't. "Pick guards" on Jazz archtops seem to be more for pinkie stability at an appropriate distance to the string plane, as were some early Classical guitars built for the likes of Napoleon Coste, when the fingerboard was elevated above the plane of the soundboard, which is why pinkie down on modern classical guitar doesn't work. As a technical exercise, I can do a 1st course full tremolo- p i m a (reverse of the guitarist's usual finger order) with the pinkie DOWN on the soundboard in thumb-inside position. For kicks & giggles I've even done a bit of "Recuerdos de la Alambra" by Tarrega; but tremolo really bogs down on doubled, inside courses. Maybe that's a good thing in this case! On 7/28/2014 9:57 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/27/2014 01:51 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? I'm more of a guitar player, but I would suggest that this is a symptom of an undeveloped right-hand technique. I'd go as far as to say that you are witnessing the impression made by an appendage that has been long used as a crutch. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Dear Tobiah, You should check jazz guitarist Martin Taylor, he always rests his pinky on the soundboard or the tap plate many archtop guitars have. He plays very difficult polyphonic jazz arrangements. Regards. A A 2014-07-28 14:44 GMT-03:00 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org>: On 07/28/2014 10:33 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/28/2014 10:23 AM, David Rastall wrote: We-ell, not exactly. A The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. A It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. A I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg's Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! A You'll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player's pinkie. A Plus, I certainly wouldn't say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. A Not to mention bluegrass banjo playersa| Fair enough. A I retract my comment! I still want to retain my evaluation of this usage of the pinky as a crutch, however popular it may have been throughout the centuries. A I used it as a youth and outgrew it, and having been on both sides of the fence, and experiencing the benefits and freedoms of having shed it, in that way I stand behind my original statement. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo A Pesquisador autA'nomo da prA!tica e interpretaAS:A-L-o historicamente informada no alaA-ode e teorba. Doutor em PrA!ticas InterpretativasA pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Kind of like Willie Nelson's guitar? Wear it proudly! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Trigger-Willie_Nelson.jpg Alain On 07/28/2014 10:44 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/28/2014 10:33 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/28/2014 10:23 AM, David Rastall wrote: We-ell, not exactly. The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg’s Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! You’ll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player’s pinkie. Plus, I certainly wouldn’t say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. Not to mention bluegrass banjo players… Fair enough. I retract my comment! I still want to retain my evaluation of this usage of the pinky as a crutch, however popular it may have been throughout the centuries. I used it as a youth and outgrew it, and having been on both sides of the fence, and experiencing the benefits and freedoms of having shed it, in that way I stand behind my original statement. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
On 07/28/2014 10:33 AM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/28/2014 10:23 AM, David Rastall wrote: We-ell, not exactly. The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg’s Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! You’ll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player’s pinkie. Plus, I certainly wouldn’t say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. Not to mention bluegrass banjo players… Fair enough. I retract my comment! I still want to retain my evaluation of this usage of the pinky as a crutch, however popular it may have been throughout the centuries. I used it as a youth and outgrew it, and having been on both sides of the fence, and experiencing the benefits and freedoms of having shed it, in that way I stand behind my original statement. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
On 07/28/2014 10:23 AM, David Rastall wrote: We-ell, not exactly. The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg’s Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! You’ll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player’s pinkie. Plus, I certainly wouldn’t say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. Not to mention bluegrass banjo players… Fair enough. I retract my comment! Tobiah On Jul 28, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Tobiah wrote: On 07/27/2014 01:51 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? I'm more of a guitar player, but I would suggest that this is a symptom of an undeveloped right-hand technique. I'd go as far as to say that you are witnessing the impression made by an appendage that has been long used as a crutch. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
We-ell, not exactly. The pinkie-on-the-soundboard thing is legitimate renaissance lute technique. It's described in treatises dating all the way back to the 16th century. I once had an opportunity to play Jakob Lindberg’s Rauolf lute that dates back to 1590, and sure enough, there was the mark on the soundboard that bears the imprint of 400 years worth of pinkies! You’ll also notice that some early 19th-century guitars have a resting place glued on to the top for the player’s pinkie. Plus, I certainly wouldn’t say that Merle Travis finger style playing was developed by players with inadequate right hand techniques. Not to mention bluegrass banjo players… DR On Jul 28, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Tobiah wrote: > On 07/27/2014 01:51 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: >> I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. >> The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. >> Should I do anything? > > I'm more of a guitar player, but I would suggest that > this is a symptom of an undeveloped right-hand technique. > I'd go as far as to say that you are witnessing the > impression made by an appendage that has been long used > as a crutch. > > Tobiah > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
On 07/27/2014 01:51 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? I'm more of a guitar player, but I would suggest that this is a symptom of an undeveloped right-hand technique. I'd go as far as to say that you are witnessing the impression made by an appendage that has been long used as a crutch. Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
I did mean a plastic rubber (UK) or eraser (US) not a cloth to rub a finish on. Matthew > On Jul 28, 2014, at 17:16, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > A 'rubber' in this context isn't an eraser - the other meaning for the > term outside the USA - much less a condom! It's a piece of cloth loaded > with a finish which is 'rubbed' onto the surface. The terminology is > fairly old and also commonly used by French polishers for their spirit > finishes. > MH > __ > > From: Geoff Gaherty > To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" > Sent: Monday, 28 July 2014, 13:03 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. >> On 2014-07-28, 2:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >> Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for >> several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. > Remind us what "rubber" means in the UK. In North America it means > "condom"! > Geoff > -- > Geoff Gaherty > Foxmead Observatory > Coldwater, Ontario, Canada > [1]http://www.gaherty.ca > [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.gaherty.ca/ > 2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
A 'rubber' in this context isn't an eraser - the other meaning for the term outside the USA - much less a condom! It's a piece of cloth loaded with a finish which is 'rubbed' onto the surface. The terminology is fairly old and also commonly used by French polishers for their spirit finishes. MH __ From: Geoff Gaherty To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, 28 July 2014, 13:03 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. On 2014-07-28, 2:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for >several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Remind us what "rubber" means in the UK. In North America it means "condom"! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [1]http://www.gaherty.ca [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
TREE EDITION Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany albertreyer...@kabelmail.de http://www.tree-edition.com ++49(0)451 899 78 48 Find even more music books at http://tree-edition.magix.net/public/ Besuchen Sie auch die Seite http://laute-und-Musik.de Am 28.07.2014 15:21, schrieb Matthew Daillie: This is inevitable and is part of the life of the lute. The more worn it is, the more it shows you've been practicing! After a few years, the soundboards of the instruments of some professional players can look as though they are going to develop a hole where the little finger rests, but I've never seen that actually happen. If you wash your hands before you play and keep the fingernail of your little finger short, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I wouldn't attempt to try any sort of patching of the finish, it will probably just make things worse. If the soundboard is dirty you can try using a plastic (not rubber) eraser but you have to be very careful not to apply any pressure and to go along the grain of the wood. In time you probably won't even notice that there is a mark where your little finger rests and if you do, you might actually grow to like it!. Best, Matthew On 27 juil. 2014, at 22:51, Herbert Ward wrote: I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - E-Mail ist virenfrei. Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virendatenbank: 3986/7934 - Ausgabedatum: 28.07.2014 .
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
not dirt! it's patina! Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juli 2014 um 15:21 Uhr Von: "Matthew Daillie" An: "Herbert Ward" Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. This is inevitable and is part of the life of the lute. The more worn it is, the more it shows you've been practicing! After a few years, the soundboards of the instruments of some professional players can look as though they are going to develop a hole where the little finger rests, but I've never seen that actually happen. If you wash your hands before you play and keep the fingernail of your little finger short, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I wouldn't attempt to try any sort of patching of the finish, it will probably just make things worse. If the soundboard is dirty you can try using a plastic (not rubber) eraser but you have to be very careful not to apply any pressure and to go along the grain of the wood. In time you probably won't even notice that there is a mark where your little finger rests and if you do, you might actually grow to like it!. Best, Matthew On 27 juil. 2014, at 22:51, Herbert Ward wrote: > I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. > The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. > Should I do anything? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
This is inevitable and is part of the life of the lute. The more worn it is, the more it shows you've been practicing! After a few years, the soundboards of the instruments of some professional players can look as though they are going to develop a hole where the little finger rests, but I've never seen that actually happen. If you wash your hands before you play and keep the fingernail of your little finger short, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I wouldn't attempt to try any sort of patching of the finish, it will probably just make things worse. If the soundboard is dirty you can try using a plastic (not rubber) eraser but you have to be very careful not to apply any pressure and to go along the grain of the wood. In time you probably won't even notice that there is a mark where your little finger rests and if you do, you might actually grow to like it!. Best, Matthew On 27 juil. 2014, at 22:51, Herbert Ward wrote: > I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. > The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. > Should I do anything? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
On 2014-07-28, 2:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Remind us what "rubber" means in the UK. In North America it means "condom"! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Rubbers (British English) usually do the trick for me, i.e. getting pinkie spots off the soundboard. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Martyn Hodgson > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 8:53 AM > To: Herbert Ward; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard. > >To restore the appearance to its new form, assuming this is sought, >much depends on the finish originally employed by the maker. >Early lute (and guitar) bellies show no significant signs of any >obvious surface coating, such as a shellac spirit based finish or even >an oil varnish. However, as was pointed out many years ago, old bellies >do no exhibit the sort of major dirt ingress which you mention. And >this cannot simply be put down to natural ageing and darkening of the >wood which to some extent may reduce the contrast between dirty spots >and surrounding wood. >One suggestion (originally by Ian Harwood in FoMRHI Quarterly) has been >egg tempera - a mixture of linseed oil and egg - which was certainly a >known coating at the time and much used by painters but can, over time, >leave a greenish tint and areas of sheen. Another is the use of Stand >Oil - also well known from earliest times. This is partially oxidised >linseed oil which is very viscous and does not penetrate the wood but >results in a matt finish which soon fully oxidises to a hard, but >flexible, coating. >Avoid commercial 'Stand Oil' which is generally nowadays produced by >adding chemicals to linseed oil to give some of the effects of true >Stand Oil. Simply pour linseed oil into an open dish and allow to stand >for several weeks (stirring occasionally to avoid skinning) until it >reaches a consistency of a thick treacle. >Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for >several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Of course, you should >clean the affected spot(s) before doing this and if any other finish >has been applied (eg spirit shellac/French polish, modern matt >finishes, etc) this would need to be removed first. >MH > > __ > >From: Herbert Ward >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2014, 21:51 >Subject: [LUTE] Bare spot on soundboard. >I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. >The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. >Should I do anything? >To get on or off this list see list information at >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Glair On 7/27/2014 4:51 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
To restore the appearance to its new form, assuming this is sought, much depends on the finish originally employed by the maker. Early lute (and guitar) bellies show no significant signs of any obvious surface coating, such as a shellac spirit based finish or even an oil varnish. However, as was pointed out many years ago, old bellies do no exhibit the sort of major dirt ingress which you mention. And this cannot simply be put down to natural ageing and darkening of the wood which to some extent may reduce the contrast between dirty spots and surrounding wood. One suggestion (originally by Ian Harwood in FoMRHI Quarterly) has been egg tempera - a mixture of linseed oil and egg - which was certainly a known coating at the time and much used by painters but can, over time, leave a greenish tint and areas of sheen. Another is the use of Stand Oil - also well known from earliest times. This is partially oxidised linseed oil which is very viscous and does not penetrate the wood but results in a matt finish which soon fully oxidises to a hard, but flexible, coating. Avoid commercial 'Stand Oil' which is generally nowadays produced by adding chemicals to linseed oil to give some of the effects of true Stand Oil. Simply pour linseed oil into an open dish and allow to stand for several weeks (stirring occasionally to avoid skinning) until it reaches a consistency of a thick treacle. Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden. Of course, you should clean the affected spot(s) before doing this and if any other finish has been applied (eg spirit shellac/French polish, modern matt finishes, etc) this would need to be removed first. MH __ From: Herbert Ward To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2014, 21:51 Subject: [LUTE] Bare spot on soundboard. I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
Herb: This is a cosmetic problem that affects the monetary value of the instrument but not the sound the instrument produces. I have the same problem with a Tomlinson lute I purchased second0hand. I talked to Grant at the recent Lute Festival in Cleveland, and he basically said it is not important to fix it. If you choose to do something about it, the course of action depends in part on what the existing finish material is, but the choices basically boil down to: 1) try to refinish that area and make it blend with the surrounding parts of the soundboard 2) strip off all the finish on the soundboard, then a) refinish it b) leave the wood bare If the existing finish is shellac, option 1) may be easier to accomplish than if it is a varnish that may be difficult or impossible to match. Since shellac is soluble in alcohol, it may be possible just to redistribute the existing finish with denatured alcohol to even it out. Many early lutes seem to have had minimal or no finish on the soundboard, so 2)b is a realistic option. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Herbert Ward Sent: 27 July, 2014 15:52 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Bare spot on soundboard. I've worn a spot on the soundboard with my RH pinkie. The bare wood is starting to show through the finish. Should I do anything? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
