[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Thank you so much Rainer. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 10:19:16 GMT-6, Rainer wrote: For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: > Dear Antonio, > > I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' > _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, > help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under > "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: > http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png > . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute > music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to > clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike > all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the > guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in > character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. > > There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could > you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin > heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as > Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky > performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) > than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in > the vihuela books. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart You can find the reference and the music in page 597. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 07:16:36 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wr
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
For Condes Claros, look also at these Guitar books:
https://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/partitions/facsimile.html
The versions there are easier to play, they also work on Ukulele.
Not really folksy, more like simpler versions of the complicated
artistic variations from Valderrabano.
On 10.01.20 16:26, Ron Andrico wrote:
Dear Stewart:
Not knowing exactly what you are aiming for, you can do no better than
the Conde claros variations in the Marsh ms., p. 232, for a folksy
character, although the character is decidedly English rather than
Spanish.
RA
__
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Stewart McCoy
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:11 PM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Antonio,
I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of
Barberiis'
_Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it.
However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search
there
under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book:
[1]http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v1
0_1549/hh1v.png
. The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the
lute
music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto",
presumably to
clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch),
unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although
each of
the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest
in
character. I would be very interested to know what the music is.
There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please
could
you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the
Latin
heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such
as
Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky
performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the
guitar)
than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive
in
the vihuela books.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart
What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you
very
much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so,
Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing.
Best wishes,
Antonio
On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy
wrote:
Dear Antonio,
A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread.
Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit
for
guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus
Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian
lute
tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the
4-course
guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear G. C.
As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was
influenced by
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible
influence by
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any
information
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know,
with
the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese"
which
are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of
pavans
before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has
proposed
a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to
Milán,
his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y
compostura a
las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then
be:
what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to
admit
this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do
not
have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace
of!
mind, but not to our knowledge.
Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there
are
no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique
condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo
fragm
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart: Not knowing exactly what you are aiming for, you can do no better than the Conde claros variations in the Marsh ms., p. 232, for a folksy character, although the character is decidedly English rather than Spanish. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Stewart McCoy Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:11 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v1 0_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available eviden
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg51564.html Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 11:32 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Another piece for the puzzle: how about Francesco playing diferencias upon the Conde Claros tenor? Francisco Salinas mentions this in his De Musica Libri Septem (1577). Here he illustrates the music of Conde Claros and states after "Super quem tenorem ego Romae modulantem audiui coram Paulo 3. Pont. Max. Franciscum Mediolanensem, qui fuit sui temporis Citharoedorum facilé princeps, & mihi valde familiaris". By the way, we do have proof that Narváez knew well Francesco's music. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 03:39:25 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should definitely look into this... G. PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé... G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should definitely look into this... G. PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé... G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Antonio Corona > wrote: > > it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. What else could it be? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Oops ... Sorry, only the Libro secondo is in Neapolitan tablature. My mistake. Best wishes Antonio P.S. According to Thurston Dart, the best advice a student could receive was "Verify your references". We are still learning. On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Sorry to say, Naples was not in Valencian hands (if that is what you mean) and neither was Neapolitan tablature. The sources by da Milano are not manuscript, but two printed books published in 1536, the same year as Casteliono and the issuing forth of El Maestro: the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro primo della fortuna and the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro secondo della fortuna. The titles are intriguing, and it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. I would agree to this hypothesis. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
I quite agree to what Lopez says about Italian influence, as I have strived to show in this interchange of ideas: I pointed out, as López does, that Milan did use Italian poetry as texts for his music: the sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. I also mentioned the fact that the court of Ferdinand, count of Calabria, and Germaine de Foix, where Milán moved, was one of the most cultured of its time. López does not mention any influence of Castiglione on Milán other than the vihuelist challenged him with "another model for the ideal courtier". I read this as a different model, quite different in fact, I did mention that Miláns motivation for writing his Cortesano, according to his own words, was to be read by the ladies: if prompting Milan to write the book for this reason counts as influence I will accept it, in this limited sense. It is true that Milán includes references to Dante and Petrarch in El Cortesano, he knew well his Italian poets; this tallies with his use of it for his music. He does also mention the May celebrations, which, incidentally, he uses as an excuse for showing off himself. Regarding the music, all that Lopez says is that he has been compared to the frottolists and some other Italian influences. This is rather disappointing. Compared by whom? On what grounds? With what conclusions? He is wise to recognize that he has "not read anything concrete in that regard". Best wishes, Antonio On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 11:32:51 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: I finally heard from Ignacio Lopez, who is currently presenting the results of his research on Spanish poetry and the music of the vihuelists. "In general terms, it is easy to affirm that Luys Milán had a great deal of Italian influence, although it is unsure he traveled to Italy. His Maestro de vihuela includes the first Italian sonnets ever printed in Spain, and he spent most of his working life at the viceregal court of Valencia. During that time, the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragon, who previously had been the prince heir of Naples before he was brought to Spain after his kingdom was conquered. In his book El Cortesano, Luis Milán challenges Baldasarre Castiglione with another model for the ideal courtier. Milán includes in this book several references to Dante and Petrarch, as well as a recreation of the Italian celebrations for the arrival of the month of May. In what relates to his music, he has been compared with the Italian frottolists (I am unsure of the English spelling here) and some other Italian influences. However, I have never read anything concrete in that regard." __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Lex van Sante Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:04 PM To: Mathias Rösel ; lute mailing list list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear all. Jordi Savall is a promoter of Catalan culture an language. As Valencian language is closely allied to Catalan he apparently saw no problem in catalanizeing ;-) Milan's name. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 8 jan. 2020, om 09:55 heeft Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> het volgende geschreven: Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias Rà �sel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rà �sel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: [2][2]r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias RÃÆà �sel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2][3][3]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÆà �sel <[3][4][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: à �à �à � Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no
