[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Barto recorded Vol.1 on a Jauch lute like you's see here http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html on which that particular Eb isn't frettable. Currently he is using a didderent lute, with a bass-rider. RT Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Hei Juan! Michel Cardin mentions several pieces in the London manuscript where courses 9, 10 and 11(!) are fretted. Tim Crawford has pointed that the sonata in f-minor S-C 21 might have been modified to suit the swan neck lute, since the London version contains deep E naturals in the allemande and sarabande which have been transposed up one octave in the Dresden version. mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen, from Norway Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, One sort of correction. Many 13 crs instruments are merely augmentations of 11 crs instruments. Therefore, it's as easy to fret the 10 (or even 11th) crs on them as it is on the French 11crs. My point was that many builders did not seek that to be a requisite and even if the instrument allows such fretting, it's bloody difficult and not probably not good arrangement. Best, Rob Dorsey -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 11:27 AM To: 'Juan Fco. Prieto'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
