[LUTE] Re: Thomson, Haydn, Beethoven (was Barbara Allen)
> On Feb 5, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > One point Howard makes is that Beethoven wanted more money than Haydn because > he added both a violin and bass line. First it is a fascinating -- if down > to earth -- insight on how musicians made (or begged or haggled for) a > living. And probably still do. But it leaves me puzzled because Haydn's > Barbara Allen does consist of the voice part, a violin part and a figured > bass (the collection title indicates "in three parts") - so I guess the same > thing Beethoven claimed to provide: The equivalent of "I'll throw in an extra > topping of mushrooms on the mushroom pizza for topence more"…? Before you go to the trouble of being puzzled, consider that It’s been years since I looked at the source material and may be mistaken about exactly what Beethoven was supplying that Haydn wasn’t. Of course, Beethoven may have been mistaken about what Thomson got from Haydn: I doubt he looked at all 214 of Haydn’t arrangements. > Two final thoughts: I think figured bass was fading out of use at that time > (early 19th century), It was a slow fade. Beethoven’s opus 86 Mass in C (1807) has a one-staff “Basso e Organo” part with figures. His Missa Solemnis (1823, published 1827) has a two-staff obbligato organ part. The latest work I can think of, offhand, with a b.c. part is Anton Bruckner’s Requiem (1849): https://imslp.org/wiki/Requiem,_WAB_39_(Bruckner,_Anton) But there are likely later ones. > yet the Barbara Allen score seems to me overly figured. I assume that > musicians proficient with continuo markings would only indicate the rather > less obvious harmonies - not every chord. (?) Some composers, Couperin for one, figured densely so as to make it foolproof. The harpsichord (in the solos)/continuo (in the tuttis) part of Bach’s Fifth Brandenburg Concerto has a lot of 6’s that seem unnecessary. I think composers or editors each brought their own attitudes about how to figure. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomson, Haydn, Beethoven (was Barbara Allen)
Thank you Yuval and Howard for this detailed information. One point Howard makes is that Beethoven wanted more money than Haydn because he added both a violin and bass line. First it is a fascinating -- if down to earth -- insight on how musicians made (or begged or haggled for) a living. And probably still do. But it leaves me puzzled because Haydn's Barbara Allen does consist of the voice part, a violin part and a figured bass (the collection title indicates "in three parts") - so I guess the same thing Beethoven claimed to provide: The equivalent of "I'll throw in an extra topping of mushrooms on the mushroom pizza for topence more"...? Two final thoughts: I think figured bass was fading out of use at that time (early 19th century), yet the Barbara Allen score seems to me overly figured. I assume that musicians proficient with continuo markings would only indicate the rather less obvious harmonies - not every chord. (?) Then, I find Haydn's arrangement rather uninspired and almost at odds with the Romantic spirit behind a Burns' style of poetry. Looking backwards rather than forward. At least in this version: https://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-folksong-arrangements-vol-5-scottish-songs-for-william-napier-i-mw0001398204 One of Haydn's 400+ arrangements includes a tune famous with lutenists: John come kiss me now. see: https://www.allmusic.com/performance/john-come-kiss-me-now-when-charming-chloe-gently-walks-folk-song-for-voice-violin-keyboard-h-31a-41-mq0001227966 Sorry for musing aloud, but thanks for the interesting information I got. On 2/5/19 1:03 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: A good source of information is also the complete edition of Haydn's works which appears at Henle, Germany. The Thompson songs have a long introduction with extensive information on the songs. Am 05.02.2019 20:11 schrieb howard posner: On Feb 5, 2019, at 12:38 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: I suspected I was a bit overly paranoid. Not really, given the number of works falsely attributed to Haydn. It seems to me like an easy job for the composer and a lucrative thing for the publisher who is able to put a famous composer's name on the title page That was the plan in a nutshell. And this was all a few years after Haydn had been a rock star in London. The composers were only given the tunes: I suppose that means the melody, when the results include both a violin part and a figured bass. How much work would that be for Haydn or Beethoven? Who knows? Haydn arranged 214 songs for Thomson, which may account for a steep decline in his compositional output after 1802. Beethoven (who started writing arrangements for Thomson in 1810, the year after Haydn died) did about 150, of which Thomson published 125. There’s an extant letter from Beethoven in which he explains that he should be paid more than Haydn was paid because his settings are more elaborate, with violin and cello parts. Thomson evidently agreed. There’s another exchange in which Beethoven demands that Thomson start sending him the lyrics along with the tunes. Thomson responded that he often commissioned new poetry once the arrangements were done, but he did send Beethoven some texts after that. Some of Beethoven’s settings have elements of real composition, so he may spent real time on them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomson, Haydn, Beethoven (was Barbara Allen)
A good source of information is also the complete edition of Haydn's works which appears at Henle, Germany. The Thompson songs have a long introduction with extensive information on the songs. Am 05.02.2019 20:11 schrieb howard posner: On Feb 5, 2019, at 12:38 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: I suspected I was a bit overly paranoid. Not really, given the number of works falsely attributed to Haydn. It seems to me like an easy job for the composer and a lucrative thing for the publisher who is able to put a famous composer's name on the title page That was the plan in a nutshell. And this was all a few years after Haydn had been a rock star in London. The composers were only given the tunes: I suppose that means the melody, when the results include both a violin part and a figured bass. How much work would that be for Haydn or Beethoven? Who knows? Haydn arranged 214 songs for Thomson, which may account for a steep decline in his compositional output after 1802. Beethoven (who started writing arrangements for Thomson in 1810, the year after Haydn died) did about 150, of which Thomson published 125. There’s an extant letter from Beethoven in which he explains that he should be paid more than Haydn was paid because his settings are more elaborate, with violin and cello parts. Thomson evidently agreed. There’s another exchange in which Beethoven demands that Thomson start sending him the lyrics along with the tunes. Thomson responded that he often commissioned new poetry once the arrangements were done, but he did send Beethoven some texts after that. Some of Beethoven’s settings have elements of real composition, so he may spent real time on them. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
