[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Leonard Williams]

   Lots of 5's (1/32) in Cosens.

   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wed, May 16, 2018 5:39 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
   Another question - of course - what is the smallest note value used in
   Renaissance tablature.
   What is the smallest note value used in Baroque tablature.
   There are lots of 32nd [thirty-second note] but I have not found a
   single 64th in my tab files.
   Note: a stem with 5 flags is a 32nd and a stem with six flags is a
   64th.
   Rainer
   PS
   I would not count a pavan in 4/8 instead of 4/2 :)
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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Rainer]

Another question - of course - what is the smallest note value used in 
Renaissance tablature.

What is the smallest note value used in Baroque tablature.

There are lots of 32nd  [thirty-second note] but I have not found a single 64th 
in my tab files.

Note: a stem with 5 flags is a 32nd and a stem with six flags is a 64th.

Rainer

PS

I would not count a pavan in 4/8 instead of 4/2 :)



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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[howard posner]

> On May 15, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> I bet Conlon Nancarrow has some even shorter values

I thought so too, so I was just looking at a Nancarrow score this morning.  The 
note values were larger than you’d expect because he makes the half-note the 
basic beat and uses quick tempos. 



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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Tristan von Neumann]

Dude...

I bet Conlon Nancarrow has some even shorter values... though the 
interest in it would be only theoretical...



Am 15.05.2018 um 17:44 schrieb John Mardinly:

OK, it gets worse: the last part of the Wikipedia article that initially 
ignored mentions notes down to 4096th with 10 beams:




   The next note value shorter than the two hundred fifty-sixth 
note is the five hundred twelfth note with seven flags or beams; it is half as 
long as the two hundred fifty-sixth note. After this would come the one 
thousand twenty-fourth note (eight flags or beams), the two thousand 
forty-eighth note (nine flags or beams), the four thousand ninety-sixth note 
(ten flags or beams), and so on indefinitely, with each note half the length of 
its predecessor. The shortest note value to have ever been used in a published 
work is the 1024th note (notated incorrectly as a 2048th) in Anthony Philip 
Heinrich's Toccata Grande Cromatica from The Sylviad, Set 2, written around 
1825; 256th notes occur frequently in this piece, and some 512th notes also 
appear; the passage is marked grave but the composer also intended a hu!

ge ritardando.[3]For comparison, the shortest notated duration supported by 
Finale is a 4096th note,[9] while LilyPond can write notes with up to 27 beams, 
as short as a 1073741824th (= 2−30) note.[10] 512th notes are easily accessible 
in Sibelius as of version 5.

Brian Ferneyhough uses many note and rest values well smaller than 256th in his 
2014 work Inconjunctions. In addition to occasional 512th and 1024th rests, 
there are multiple examples of 4096th notes. Many of these are also contained 
within tuplets, making their ratio to the whole note even smaller.[11]  


  
So now what; belly laugh or enormous groan...   


A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.






On May 15, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Rainer  wrote:

Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous 
demisemihemidemisemiquaver :)

Rainer


On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote:

On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:

According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement 
(Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid 
scales

I just looked at/listened to it:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Dl3qEckWYUDE=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE=Fv7MI3cq_LGyMLX8l4TLUKrv0DEUHFJiL7Da8-HEm80=
  and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, 
given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams 
instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are 
faster than regular 128th notes.  (And of course, I may have been looking at a 
cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache.  Critics 
complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values.




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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[John Mardinly]

OK, it gets worse: the last part of the Wikipedia article that initially 
ignored mentions notes down to 4096th with 10 beams:




   The next note value shorter than the two hundred fifty-sixth 
note is the five hundred twelfth note with seven flags or beams; it is half as 
long as the two hundred fifty-sixth note. After this would come the one 
thousand twenty-fourth note (eight flags or beams), the two thousand 
forty-eighth note (nine flags or beams), the four thousand ninety-sixth note 
(ten flags or beams), and so on indefinitely, with each note half the length of 
its predecessor. The shortest note value to have ever been used in a published 
work is the 1024th note (notated incorrectly as a 2048th) in Anthony Philip 
Heinrich's Toccata Grande Cromatica from The Sylviad, Set 2, written around 
1825; 256th notes occur frequently in this piece, and some 512th notes also 
appear; the passage is marked grave but the composer also intended a huge!
  ritardando.[3]For comparison, the shortest notated duration supported by 
Finale is a 4096th note,[9] while LilyPond can write notes with up to 27 beams, 
as short as a 1073741824th (= 2−30) note.[10] 512th notes are easily accessible 
in Sibelius as of version 5.
Brian Ferneyhough uses many note and rest values well smaller than 256th in his 
2014 work Inconjunctions. In addition to occasional 512th and 1024th rests, 
there are multiple examples of 4096th notes. Many of these are also contained 
within tuplets, making their ratio to the whole note even smaller.[11]  


  
So now what; belly laugh or enormous groan...   


A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.





> On May 15, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous 
> demisemihemidemisemiquaver :)
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote:
>>> On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
>>> 
>>> According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement 
>>> (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate 
>>> rapid scales
>> I just looked at/listened to it:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Dl3qEckWYUDE=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE=Fv7MI3cq_LGyMLX8l4TLUKrv0DEUHFJiL7Da8-HEm80=
>>  and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, 
>> given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six 
>> beams instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I 
>> suppose are faster than regular 128th notes.  (And of course, I may have 
>> been looking at a cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes 
>> ache.  Critics complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE=WNK1zj-ZekbgU7ssypZ3o57rWUxYLWvJtv9vYkIS0Ss=

[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Rainer]

Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous 
demisemihemidemisemiquaver :)

Rainer


On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote:



On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:

According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement 
(Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid 
scales


I just looked at/listened to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qEckWYUDE

  and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, 
given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams 
instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are 
faster than regular 128th notes.  (And of course, I may have been looking at a 
cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache.  Critics 
complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values.




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[howard posner]

> On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
> According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:  the second movement 
> (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid 
> scales

I just looked at/listened to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qEckWYUDE

 and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, 
given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams 
instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are 
faster than regular 128th notes.  (And of course, I may have been looking at a 
cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache.  Critics 
complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values.





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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

these demihemiwatchamacallits were indeed used for printing music in 
Beethoven's time, but it is also true that they have almost completely fallen 
out of use. Modern editions of late eighteenth/early nineteenth century piano 
music augment the old values ...

Best

Joachim

P.S.: I have seen some Mozart in very black, but I do not recall which KV that 
was ...



Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
www.lektorat-luedtke.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
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-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Ugga, Agga
Datum: 2018-05-14T15:49:02+0200
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

As we all know a demisemihemidemisemiquaver is called 
Zweihundertsechsundfünfzigstel in German or two hundred fifty-sixth note in 
American English.

The German WIKI entry says such note values are not used.

I am sure this is nonsense. I seem to remember to have seen 
demisemihemidemisemiquavers somewhere - in a Beethoven piano sonata?

Does anybody remember?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[John Mardinly]

According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:

the second movement (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 
37) (1800), to notate rapid scales.[3] Another example is in Mozart's 
Variations on "Je suis Lindor" (1778), where four of them are used in the slow 
(molto adagio) twelfth variation.[4][5] A further example occurs (Grave.Adagio 
non troppo) in Jan Ladislav Dussek's (1760–1812) Fifth Piano Sonata, Op. 10 No. 
2.[6] They also occur (Largo) in Vivaldi's (1678–1741) Concerto, RV 444,[3][7] 
and in bar 15 of François Couperin's Second Prelude from L'art de toucher le 
clavecin(1716).[8]
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.



> On May 14, 2018, at 6:47 AM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> demisemihemidemisemiquaver




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