Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Gents, I've gotten several on-list comments and answers to my questions. I'll answer them directly. But I'll make a general answer here as to Jerry Brown's MusiKits flat back. Jerry has just written me and intends to remove the lute/12 string lutar from his catalog until he redesigns it in accordance with some of my suggestions (all gained from things I learned on this list). Knowing Jerry he will come up with a fine student lute at a good price. What he makes now needs a lot of modification. The primary redesign will be to shorten the vibrating length so as to allow tuning to G/g' without stretching the envelope of breakage. Best, Jon
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
On Giovedì, lug 22, 2004, at 00:46 Europe/Rome, Stewart McCoy wrote: the grooves for the frets were already made, and they aren't at 6th-comma meantone dear stewart - i've tried to imagine what this might mean but haven't a clue. sounds intriguing. would you please explain? sincerely - bill
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Dear Stuart, That seems a shame - especially with a swish rose. Fret slots can be filled with veneer, but surely it should be possible to knock up a new fingerboard if you managed to put the rest together. Tony - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:46 AM Subject: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Dear Tim, I once made a cittern from a kit. I constructed it in a friend's workshop. He kept an eye on what I did. It looks good. The rose is pretty swish. Unfortunately the grooves for the frets were already made, and they aren't at 6th-comma meantone. My instrument plays out of tune. I rarely touch it, in spite of its swish rose. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Timothy Motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Denys, I would agree that a stage somewhere in between a box full of parts and a completed lute would be a nice option. I found that researching and gathering materials almost took more time than the actual construction. I take it that you are happy with the cittern kit? I find that I'm getting very curious about them. I suppose I should learn the basics with a lute before I go wandering off with other instruments. Tim On Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 06:13 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Jon Tim, I too would be daunted at the prospect of trying to build a lute back, but I have built the RWC cittern and found the pre-shaping of parts and general content of the kit much easier than trying to gather together the necessary materials myself. I understand that they will build any parts for you that you want, so you can order a lute kit with a completed back (at extra cost). It might be an option worth considering. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Jon, If the pictures on the RWC website are an indication of what you get in the kit, you are not much better off than doing it from scratch on your own. It looks like the ribs are not bent nor have their edges been planed to the right bevel to join properly. Shaping the neck takes about 30 minutes with a hand plane; it's much easier than doing a guitar neck. The only tough part (unless you had a workshop and some luthier's tools) is the peg head and pegs. I've bought a batch of rosewood pegs from a supplier in India, and I would be willing to sell you at cost enough for a 6 course lute. You can easily build a jig to glue together the peg head, and if you have a steady hand, you can drill the pilot holes for the pegs without a drill press. Then, all you would need is a tapered reamer for the peg holes. For the bowl, I buy black ash sanded to the right thickness from Itasca Wood Products in Minnesota. It's not birdseye maple, but it's good enough for a student lute. I have a website with pictures of my design for a form that is easy to build. I think I've figured the total materials cost for my lute at about $150. Tim -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM To: Michael; Herbert Ward Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
bill, The cittern was originally designed for amateurs (according to my books), the pros preferred the lute. And I heard one played with a harp this weekend (a commercial cittern, it had to be, as the pegs were guitar style machines). But the cittern wasn't intended to be a lute. As to the 6th comma meantone, Stewart will explain that. But there are many tunings for our western scale that are all compromises. If you want it I'll scan a pictorial of the various compromises, and their relationship to the pure tones, and send it. I haven't the vaguest idea what the 6th comma is, but I do know the Pythagorean comma. Pythagoras made a board with a string (perhaps several, I don't know how good his pitch memory was - never met the man). The natural overtone scale has a few fractions in it. They confuse the issue. In a tempered scale the octaves which are primary should come to the same result as the fifths (the half lengths). (And if I'm a bit off in saying the details, let the overall principal apply). The half should add to the total, but it doesn't. Five octaves and eight fifths don't come to the same pitch - and the difference is called the Pythgorean comma. So whatever the 6th comma is, it is a compromise in the scale. There are a number of ways to do it, the orchestral piano has fixed pitches, as does the harp. The lute family may not, although once you have set your frets you have chosen a temperament, but on the violin or any unfretted instrument that can vary. Meantone is one choice (and there are several meantones, depending on whether you want to make the fifths closer to the natural, or the thirds - you can never do both). The standard solution is to divide the octave into twelve equal parts by frequency, and this is a compromise. Twelve hundred cents to the octave, each half tone worth one hundred cents. Works well for digital tuners, but it is not the only solution. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:37 AM Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy On Giovedì, lug 22, 2004, at 00:46 Europe/Rome, Stewart McCoy wrote: the grooves for the frets were already made, and they aren't at 6th-comma meantone dear stewart - i've tried to imagine what this might mean but haven't a clue. sounds intriguing. would you please explain? sincerely - bill
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
got it. thanks - bill On Giovedì, lug 22, 2004, at 09:37 Europe/Rome, Jon Murphy wrote: The standard solution is to divide the octave into twelve equal parts by frequency, and this is a compromise. Twelve hundred cents to the octave, each half tone worth one hundred cents.
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Dear Jon and All: The notion of the cittern being designed for amateurs is completely incorrect. Why, then, would the frets go far past the 12th fret, yet still produce good notes way up there? Why would the Holborn and Robinson pieces be MORE difficult to play than lute music, using all those high notes yet still playing inner voices? Why would surviving instruments consistently display tempered fretting of the most exacting and sophisticated nature? Why would the bodies always be tapered to produce just the right sound projection, or the necks cut away to facilitate right-hand movement? It's true that only could easily learn a few chords and play simple song accompaniments, but this could just as easily be said about the lute. In sum, it's a cop-out to say we don't need to be as exacting about an instrument (or tuning, or arrangment of music) simply because it was sometimes used informally or by amateurs. Yours, Jim
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Jon: There is a Renaissance lute listed for sale in the latest issue of the LSA Quarterly, which arrived just a couple of weeks ago. Have you checked that out? Being made in 1967, it might have inset metal frets, but replacing the fingerboard would fix that, and it sounds like you are willing to tackle that sort of work.. Daniel Heiman On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:07:05 -0400 Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptable for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten minutes and enjoyed it). But it took me two months (with the help of people on this list) to properly tune the fret heights and nut and bridge heights to get the typical lute action. I spent some time with Jerry this past weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival on the redesign of his flat-back, but until he does redesign it I recommend against it. He charges US$795 for the finished instrument, and US$350 for the kit. The finished instrument from the factory isn't a lute, but a good man with wood can make the kit into one. At $800 it would be a good student lute, if it were a lute. Mine is, but only because of my modifications. If he follows up on the modifications then it will be a good alternative to the real thing for beginners. So to come back the full circle. Are the Paki lutes of sound body (pun intended)? Or does anyone on the list have a broken lute with a good body? I am enjoying this instrument so much that I want to go further. Best, Jon The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
I got a note a few days ago from the lady who put that ad in the Quarterly. She has already sold this lute. Nancy Carlin Lute Society of America Jon: There is a Renaissance lute listed for sale in the latest issue of the LSA Quarterly, which arrived just a couple of weeks ago. Have you checked that out? Being made in 1967, it might have inset metal frets, but replacing the fingerboard would fix that, and it sounds like you are willing to tackle that sort of work.. Daniel Heiman On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:07:05 -0400 Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptable for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Dear Stewart, I wouldn't recognise 6th-comma meantone if I fell over it! Sorry to hear about the problem with the frets on your cittern. It's a shame to waste that rose! Maybe you could reposition the dodgy ones with wedges in wider slots like the old fretboards? For the benefit of others who may be interested, I found the fret positions on my RWC kit very functional, and despite my 6th-comma challenge I have quite a sharp ear for tuning. My kit was built after Chris Goodwin's very helpful article in Lute News was published, and I understand that RWC made some modifications to the kit design in response to it. My rose, is not alas, swish, but it doesn't look too bad! It's one of the hardest parts of the kit and the explanation of rose cutting in the instructions is not as thorough as it might be for a beginner. But as a non-woodworker I found the kit quite buildable and I do enjoy playing the finished instrument. The main problem, of course, is what to play on it, as the kit instruments are larger than the English cittern that Robinson Holborne wrote for. I am hoping someday to get microfilms of the Leroy Phalese books, but until then I am mainly making my own transcriptions of pieces from other sources. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:46 PM Subject: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Dear Tim, I once made a cittern from a kit. I constructed it in a friend's workshop. He kept an eye on what I did. It looks good. The rose is pretty swish. Unfortunately the grooves for the frets were already made, and they aren't at 6th-comma meantone. My instrument plays out of tune. I rarely touch it, in spite of its swish rose. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Timothy Motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Denys, I would agree that a stage somewhere in between a box full of parts and a completed lute would be a nice option. I found that researching and gathering materials almost took more time than the actual construction. I take it that you are happy with the cittern kit? I find that I'm getting very curious about them. I suppose I should learn the basics with a lute before I go wandering off with other instruments. Tim On Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 06:13 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Jon Tim, I too would be daunted at the prospect of trying to build a lute back, but I have built the RWC cittern and found the pre-shaping of parts and general content of the kit much easier than trying to gather together the necessary materials myself. I understand that they will build any parts for you that you want, so you can order a lute kit with a completed back (at extra cost). It might be an option worth considering. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Jon, If the pictures on the RWC website are an indication of what you get in the kit, you are not much better off than doing it from scratch on your own. It looks like the ribs are not bent nor have their edges been planed to the right bevel to join properly. Shaping the neck takes about 30 minutes with a hand plane; it's much easier than doing a guitar neck. The only tough part (unless you had a workshop and some luthier's tools) is the peg head and pegs. I've bought a batch of rosewood pegs from a supplier in India, and I would be willing to sell you at cost enough for a 6 course lute. You can easily build a jig to glue together the peg head, and if you have a steady hand, you can drill the pilot holes for the pegs without a drill press. Then, all you would need is a tapered reamer for the peg holes. For the bowl, I buy black ash sanded to the right thickness from Itasca Wood Products in Minnesota. It's not birdseye maple, but it's good enough for a student lute. I have a website with pictures of my design for a form that is easy to build. I think I've figured the total materials cost for my lute at about $150. Tim -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM To: Michael; Herbert Ward Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain
RE: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Howdy Jon - I built one of the Musikits flat backed lutes, and made a playable instrument of it. I initially thought it was a decent lute substitute, but the more lutherie I learned the less satisfied I was with it. In particular, the string spacing was not great - the neck was too narrow, and not tapered. It's also klunky, poorly balanced and far too heavy at the bridge, so it had a tiny sound (even by lute standards). Not to disparage Musikits - they make some wonderful instrument kits, esp. harps. So I sold off the flat backed lute, and built a practice banjo-lute. I used a 10 Remo hand drum for the body, and built the neck from scratch, copying the neck dimensions from my Larry Brown 8 course Hieber, and substituting two sets of cheap mandolin tuners on the peg head for wood pegs. It sounds remarkably lute-like. More importantly, the action and string spacing are spot on identical to my real 8-course, making it a perfect practice instrument. I recently took it on a vacation to learn a mess of lute songs for a recording project - worked great. I can send you a picture if you like. When I have time maybe I'll do a short note on it for the LSA Quarterly. As for the Paki lutes (based on the couple that I've seen), I would say that they have sound bodies. The rib joinery may be a bit slap-dash, but that has very little if any effect on the sound. The bowls are solid. If you are confident of your lutherie skills and willing to rework them as discussed, I think they can be good deal, and certainly a good lutherie learning experience. Two caveats: 1. It's entirely possible that you could get a Paki lute that is simply beyond reworking. 2. Re-doing the neck is one thing, but a bad bridge or bad pegs present more serious problems. If you aren't willing to take on the bridge and pegs, I'd stay away. Ben Cohen Denver, Colorado -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM To: Michael; Herbert Ward Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptible for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten minutes and enjoyed it). But it took me two months (with the help of people on this list) to properly tune the fret heights and nut and bridge heights to get the typical lute action. I spent some time with Jerry this past weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival on the redesign of his flat-back, but until he does redesign it I recommend against it. He charges US$795 for the finished instrument, and US$350 for the kit. The finished instrument from the factory isn't a lute, but a good man with wood can make the kit into one. At $800 it would be a good student lute, if it were a lute. Mine is, but only because of my modifications. If he follows up on the modifications then it will be a good alternative to the real thing for beginners. So to come back the full circle. Are the Paki lutes of sound body (pun intended)? Or does anyone on the list have a broken lute with a good body? I am enjoying this instrument so much that I want to go further. Best, Jon PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This electronic message transmission and any files transmitted with it, are a communication from the law firm of Shughart Thomson Kilroy, P.C. This message contains information protected by the attorney/client privilege and is confidential or otherwise the exclusive property of the intended recipient or Shughart Thomson Kilroy. This information is solely for the use of the individual or entity that is the intended recipient. If you are not the designated recipient
RE: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Jon, If the pictures on the RWC website are an indication of what you get in the kit, you are not much better off than doing it from scratch on your own. It looks like the ribs are not bent nor have their edges been planed to the right bevel to join properly. Shaping the neck takes about 30 minutes with a hand plane; it's much easier than doing a guitar neck. The only tough part (unless you had a workshop and some luthier's tools) is the peg head and pegs. I've bought a batch of rosewood pegs from a supplier in India, and I would be willing to sell you at cost enough for a 6 course lute. You can easily build a jig to glue together the peg head, and if you have a steady hand, you can drill the pilot holes for the pegs without a drill press. Then, all you would need is a tapered reamer for the peg holes. For the bowl, I buy black ash sanded to the right thickness from Itasca Wood Products in Minnesota. It's not birdseye maple, but it's good enough for a student lute. I have a website with pictures of my design for a form that is easy to build. I think I've figured the total materials cost for my lute at about $150. Tim -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM To: Michael; Herbert Ward Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptible for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten minutes and enjoyed it). But it took me two months (with the help of people on this list) to properly tune the fret heights and nut and bridge heights to get the typical lute action. I spent some time with Jerry this past weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival on the redesign of his flat-back, but until he does redesign it I recommend against it. He charges US$795 for the finished instrument, and US$350 for the kit. The finished instrument from the factory isn't a lute, but a good man with wood can make the kit into one. At $800 it would be a good student lute, if it were a lute. Mine is, but only because of my modifications. If he follows up on the modifications then it will be a good alternative to the real thing for beginners. So to come back the full circle. Are the Paki lutes of sound body (pun intended)? Or does anyone on the list have a broken lute with a good body? I am enjoying this instrument so much that I want to go further. Best, Jon PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This electronic message transmission and any files transmitted with it, are a communication from the law firm of Shughart Thomson Kilroy, P.C. This message contains information protected by the attorney/client privilege and is confidential or otherwise the exclusive property of the intended recipient or Shughart Thomson Kilroy. This information is solely for the use of the individual or entity that is the intended recipient. If you are not the designated recipient, or the person responsible for delivering the communication to its intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify by telephone (816-395-0695), collect or by electronic mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED] ) and promptly destroy the original transmission. Thank you for your assistance. --
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Dear Jon Tim, I too would be daunted at the prospect of trying to build a lute back, but I have built the RWC cittern and found the pre-shaping of parts and general content of the kit much easier than trying to gather together the necessary materials myself. I understand that they will build any parts for you that you want, so you can order a lute kit with a completed back (at extra cost). It might be an option worth considering. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:56 PM Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Jon, If the pictures on the RWC website are an indication of what you get in the kit, you are not much better off than doing it from scratch on your own. It looks like the ribs are not bent nor have their edges been planed to the right bevel to join properly. Shaping the neck takes about 30 minutes with a hand plane; it's much easier than doing a guitar neck. The only tough part (unless you had a workshop and some luthier's tools) is the peg head and pegs. I've bought a batch of rosewood pegs from a supplier in India, and I would be willing to sell you at cost enough for a 6 course lute. You can easily build a jig to glue together the peg head, and if you have a steady hand, you can drill the pilot holes for the pegs without a drill press. Then, all you would need is a tapered reamer for the peg holes. For the bowl, I buy black ash sanded to the right thickness from Itasca Wood Products in Minnesota. It's not birdseye maple, but it's good enough for a student lute. I have a website with pictures of my design for a form that is easy to build. I think I've figured the total materials cost for my lute at about $150. Tim -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:07 PM To: Michael; Herbert Ward Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptible for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten minutes and enjoyed it). But it took me two months (with the help of people on this list) to properly tune the fret heights and nut and bridge heights to get the typical lute action. I spent some time with Jerry this past weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival on the redesign of his flat-back, but until he does redesign it I recommend against it. He charges US$795 for the finished instrument, and US$350 for the kit. The finished instrument from the factory isn't a lute, but a good man with wood can make the kit into one. At $800 it would be a good student lute, if it were a lute. Mine is, but only because of my modifications. If he follows up on the modifications then it will be a good alternative to the real thing for beginners. So to come back the full circle. Are the Paki lutes of sound body (pun intended)? Or does anyone on the list have a broken lute with a good body? I am enjoying this instrument so much that I want to go further. Best, Jon PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This electronic message transmission and any files transmitted with it, are a communication from the law firm of Shughart Thomson Kilroy, P.C. This message contains information protected by the attorney/client privilege and is confidential or otherwise the exclusive property of the intended recipient or Shughart Thomson Kilroy. This information is solely for the use of the individual or entity that is the intended recipient. If you
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Herbert and Ben (and any others), By now you all know I have a flat-back from Musikits, and am not challenged as to woodworking. I am thinking of getting the 8 course kit from RWC (England, but moving to Toledo, Spain) at about $800 US. I would be comfortable working from scratch if it weren't for making the mold and setting the strips to make the body (I have Lundgren's book - but I think I have to see it first). So my question on the Paki lutes is this. How is the body quality? I can redo the soundboard (assuming they use a heat sensitive hide glue, or similar). I can make my own neck and fingerboard and peg block (and pegs) - and if need be a new soundboard and bridge. So, like Michael, I am looking for my next lute (although I envy him his Larry Brown, microscopic crack and all). While we are on the topic, Michael asked about a cheap lute he could bang on. All of you know by now about my Jerry Brown flat-back. But now I know more about it. Jerry is an excellent maker of harps and harp kits, and a fine guitarist (and also those instruments). But he didn't do enough research into the lute before designing his flat-back lute. (Yes, RT, as original it wasn't a true lute - even in play). The neck is too long for a G tuning (I use fishing line for the chanterelle). But the string spacing and sound are quite acceptible for learning (Ronn MacFarlane played mine for ten minutes and enjoyed it). But it took me two months (with the help of people on this list) to properly tune the fret heights and nut and bridge heights to get the typical lute action. I spent some time with Jerry this past weekend at the Somerset Harp Festival on the redesign of his flat-back, but until he does redesign it I recommend against it. He charges US$795 for the finished instrument, and US$350 for the kit. The finished instrument from the factory isn't a lute, but a good man with wood can make the kit into one. At $800 it would be a good student lute, if it were a lute. Mine is, but only because of my modifications. If he follows up on the modifications then it will be a good alternative to the real thing for beginners. So to come back the full circle. Are the Paki lutes of sound body (pun intended)? Or does anyone on the list have a broken lute with a good body? I am enjoying this instrument so much that I want to go further. Best, Jon
RE: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
If the soundboard is split but it's not affecting the sound, you may not need to have it fixed. I have been told that Christopher Wilson has a lute with a split soundboard that he hasn't had repaired because he doesn't want to change the sound. Tim Motz Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:53:17 -0500 Sorry, I'm sending this again, without all the =20 symbolsI fixed that in my options Hi, I have an OLD, OLD 10 course built by Larry Brown back in like 1981. The face is split (somewhat). I will get it fixed by Larry, eventually. I will have to send it off to him. I got it second hand for about $1100. This was my first lute and up until the time of the fracture, I practiced a bit. Now I want a new one. I was looking at the MID-EAST Lutes for $600. I know that they had a horrible reputation for being clunky, heavy and unplayable, but I assume that is from players with $8000 lutes? I can't afford a lute that expensive...ever. I CAN afford the Mid-East Lute. Does anyone have a newer built version, and what is your take on the sound? A couple years ago when I first saw them, people said it was like weightlifting. These lutes were heavy and they really didn't play well. I am sure design changes have happened. If you've recently bought one and are having a fine time with it, let me know. If you haven't bought one, and only are going by what others may have said, please don't reply. I am looking for something to just practice on...that's all. I'm not Hopkinson Smith. Don't plan on sounding like Hopkinson Smith. Cool? Also, I live in Saint Louis, Missouri. There was one lute teacher ages ago. Don't know where he went. Haven't seen him or his classical guitar shop. Is there actually a lute teacher here in Saint Louis? Thanks, Michael
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
I bought one of the Pakistan lutes. They are terrible. As they arrive, they are not usable as a practical instrument. The nut was _way_ high. The edges of the fingerboard were too sharp, causing the frets to float off the fingerboard. The pegs did not hold well. There is too little space between the 1st and 2nd courses. There were other problems. I spent many hours of work, many trips to the hardware store, several internet purchases, and many solicitations for advice, before it was playable. I had a list of everything I had to do to it -- it is playable now, though. If you are limited in funds, and would enjoy an introduction to do-it-yourself luthery, it might be OK. But don't count on pulling something out of the case with the single problem of mediocre sound. But I don't want to be overly harsh. My lute teacher expressed mild interest in buying it as an oud.
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Howard Posner wrote: Even if it costs $600 to fix the lute you have, which I doubt, fixing it is a better investment. Unless everything I hear about these Pakistani Quite right. There's no way the Pakistan lute will compare with a Larry Brown lute, even after extensive owner modification.
RE: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
This reflects my experience with the Pakistani lutes - they are potentially playable with substantial reworking, and thus might make sense for an amateur luthier but should be avoided by the woodworking-challenged. Being an amatuer luthier, I recently converted a similar dirt-cheap oud that is probably of the same Pakistani origin ($100 in a Pier-One type import shop that was going out of business) into a successful 5-course mando-cello. I re-glued the loose peg head, re-angled the neck with a router, put on gut frets, and reduced the courses from 6 to 5 with a new nut. I can still play it like an oud, or use it for Bach cello suites. Abandoning one of the sets of bridge holes fixed the string alignment problem - now the 5 courses all go over the neck. But this was lucky - the bridge holes just happened to be misplaced that way. There is no guarantee that converting an 8 course Pakistani lute into a 7 course would fix string spacing problems that these instruments typically have. Nuts are easy to replace - bridges are not. Ben Cohen Denver, CO -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:38 AM To: Michael Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sorry, help mewhat to buy I bought one of the Pakistan lutes. They are terrible. As they arrive, they are not usable as a practical instrument. The nut was _way_ high. The edges of the fingerboard were too sharp, causing the frets to float off the fingerboard. The pegs did not hold well. There is too little space between the 1st and 2nd courses. There were other problems. I spent many hours of work, many trips to the hardware store, several internet purchases, and many solicitations for advice, before it was playable. I had a list of everything I had to do to it -- it is playable now, though. If you are limited in funds, and would enjoy an introduction to do-it-yourself luthery, it might be OK. But don't count on pulling something out of the case with the single problem of mediocre sound. But I don't want to be overly harsh. My lute teacher expressed mild interest in buying it as an oud. PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This electronic message transmission and any files transmitted with it, are a communication from the law firm of Shughart Thomson Kilroy, P.C. This message contains information protected by the attorney/client privilege and is confidential or otherwise the exclusive property of the intended recipient or Shughart Thomson Kilroy. This information is solely for the use of the individual or entity that is the intended recipient. If you are not the designated recipient, or the person responsible for delivering the communication to its intended recipient, please be aware that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify by telephone (816-395-0695), collect or by electronic mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED] ) and promptly destroy the original transmission. Thank you for your assistance. --
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
I agree with Tim: It seems to me you have a more than decent Lute now, how you can think of trashing it, so to speak, in favor of a Pakistani rip-off POS is beyond me. Cracks in the sound board were a common occurrence and in this case will probably not harm the sound or integrity of the instrument unless it gets larger. The only real solution to this issue considering your state of mind would be to have a new sound board made and replace it. This will not be a cheap repair, but it will be cheaper than a new Lute. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: timothy motz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:49 AM Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy If the soundboard is split but it's not affecting the sound, you may not need to have it fixed. I have been told that Christopher Wilson has a lute with a split soundboard that he hasn't had repaired because he doesn't want to change the sound. Tim Motz Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sorry, help mewhat to buy Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:53:17 -0500 Sorry, I'm sending this again, without all the =20 symbolsI fixed that in my options Hi, I have an OLD, OLD 10 course built by Larry Brown back in like 1981. The face is split (somewhat). I will get it fixed by Larry, eventually. I will have to send it off to him. I got it second hand for about $1100. This was my first lute and up until the time of the fracture, I practiced a bit. Now I want a new one. I was looking at the MID-EAST Lutes for $600. I know that they had a horrible reputation for being clunky, heavy and unplayable, but I assume that is from players with $8000 lutes? I can't afford a lute that expensive...ever. I CAN afford the Mid-East Lute. Does anyone have a newer built version, and what is your take on the sound? A couple years ago when I first saw them, people said it was like weightlifting. These lutes were heavy and they really didn't play well. I am sure design changes have happened. If you've recently bought one and are having a fine time with it, let me know. If you haven't bought one, and only are going by what others may have said, please don't reply. I am looking for something to just practice on...that's all. I'm not Hopkinson Smith. Don't plan on sounding like Hopkinson Smith. Cool? Also, I live in Saint Louis, Missouri. There was one lute teacher ages ago. Don't know where he went. Haven't seen him or his classical guitar shop. Is there actually a lute teacher here in Saint Louis? Thanks, Michael
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
I am not clear on the problem here-you want to get rid of a good lute because it has a small crack in the sound board? If this is so the lute is not the instrument for you. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Dear Michael, no, I do not know the middle-eastern lutes. But I have been given a Pakistani bouzouki as a gift just recently. Thus, I thought I might be qualified for a reply. The instrument was quite nice and shiny, though not of the ultimate craftsmanship. Unfortunately, it was virtually unplayable. Not only that the nut grooves were not cut deep enough (I fixed this), but I found that the neck was not only ugly and heavy, but also so bent/distorted that the action was way too high. And there was not truss rod to adjust this. Besides, I had to file all the frets because the neck wood had dried and the frets protruded painfully. The instrument was a look-alike, it looked very much like a bouzouki, but I am pretty sure that no luthier came even close to it during construction. And I do not think I am too fussy. I was lucky to sell the thing at Ebay for $250, which seemed fair to me, there was a nice hard case included. So, if the lutes you are looking at are only remotely similar to this thing, don't buy them. If you are short on funds, have you pondered making your own lute? There is tuition available by David Van Edwards, www. vanedwards.co.uk. He sells a CD course which is worth every cent. It can be done. (No, I have not finished mine yet, but this is a different story) Good luck Gernot On 18.07.2004, at 23:53, Michael wrote: Sorry, I'm sending this again, without all the =20 symbolsI fixed that in my options Hi, I have an OLD, OLD 10 course built by Larry Brown back in like 1981. The face is split (somewhat). I will get it fixed by Larry, eventually. I will have to send it off to him. I got it second hand for about $1100. This was my first lute and up until the time of the fracture, I practiced a bit. Now I want a new one. I was looking at the MID-EAST Lutes for $600. I know that they had a horrible reputation for being clunky, heavy and unplayable, but I assume that is from players with $8000 lutes? I can't afford a lute that expensive...ever. I CAN afford the Mid-East Lute. Does anyone have a newer built version, and what is your take on the sound? A couple years ago when I first saw them, people said it was like weightlifting. These lutes were heavy and they really didn't play well. I am sure design changes have happened. If you've recently bought one and are having a fine time with it, let me know. If you haven't bought one, and only are going by what others may have said, please don't reply. I am looking for something to just practice on...that's all. I'm not Hopkinson Smith. Don't plan on sounding like Hopkinson Smith. Cool? Also, I live in Saint Louis, Missouri. There was one lute teacher ages ago. Don't know where he went. Haven't seen him or his classical guitar shop. Is there actually a lute teacher here in Saint Louis? Thanks, Michael
Re: Sorry, help me....what to buy????
Hi, I have an OLD, OLD 10 course built by Larry Brown back in like 1981. The face is split (somewhat). I will get it fixed by Larry, eventually. I will have to send it off to him. I got it second hand for about $1100. This was my first lute and up until the time of the fracture, I practiced a bit. Now I want a new one. I was looking at the MID-EAST Lutes for $600. Even if it costs $600 to fix the lute you have, which I doubt, fixing it is a better investment. Unless everything I hear about these Pakistani cheapos is wrong, they are not in the same class as what you already own, and you shouldn't be considering them. BTW, your lute is not all that ancient, and for all I know, there's someone local who can work on it. Howard
