[LUTE] Duo at distance with third listener also elsewhere

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear lutenists

 Just before our list closes, I wonder whether in this difficult
   context anyone has the experience of playing duo at distance and with a
   third lutenist commentator in a third environment, perhaps all this via
   Zoom or similar?

   Please feel free to mail me with any  ideas and experience of this.

   Thank you also Waine for your wonderful work for us gradually
   now drawing to a close.

   Regards

   Anthony
   

   --

References

   Visible links:

   Hidden links:
   2. https://yho.com/footer0


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[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[Max Langer]

Otherwise music students is a fantastic page turning technology.

Max

Max Langer, PhD

20 rue Diderot
38000 Grenoble
France
+33 631 94 21 92


On 15 March 2017 at 17:53, guy_and_liz Smith <guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
> A  melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal 
> with a full score. Too many page turns.
>
> A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when 
> did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in 
> modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've 
> played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, 
> often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the 
> Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in 
> (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least 
> some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was 
> published as part music; continuo is just another part book.
>
> Guy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
> Of howard posner
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM
> To: Lute List
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
>
> It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo 
> part.  I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page 
> turns.
>
>> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong <edward.y...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>>   score, assuming both have the same figures?
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[guy_and_liz Smith]

A  melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal with 
a full score. Too many page turns.

A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when 
did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in 
modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've 
played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, 
often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the 
Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in 
(relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least 
some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was 
published as part music; continuo is just another part book.

Guy

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part.  
I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns.

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong <edward.y...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[David van Ooijen]

   When accompanying a soloist, I prefer to see his/part. Otherwise bass
   part is more convenient. But I can live with either score or part.
   Recits are the exception: I want to read these along.

   David

   On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 at 17:19, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
   wrote:

 It's always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the
 continuo part.   I've done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid
 inconvenient page turns.
 > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong
 <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >   Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
 >Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or
 full
 >score, assuming both have the same figures?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[howard posner]

It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part.  
I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns.

> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong  
> wrote:
> 
>  Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?




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[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[Miles Dempster]

Hello Edward,

There have been positive comments on this list about using a tablet and 
foot-operated page turner.
I’m thinking adopting this solution when the next iPad Pro is released, which I 
believe will be within a few weeks.


Miles




> On Mar 15, 2017, at 9:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong  
> wrote:
> 
>   Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
>   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
>   score, assuming both have the same figures?
>   I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but
>   have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with
>   playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part
>   to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a
>   page-turner?
>   Curious to hear your thoughts.
>   From sunny Singapore,
>   Edward C. Yong
>   
>   τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
>   Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
>   此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
>   This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners

[Edward Chrysogonus Yong]

   Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo,
   Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full
   score, assuming both have the same figures?
   I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but
   have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with
   playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part
   to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a
   page-turner?
   Curious to hear your thoughts.
   From sunny Singapore,
   Edward C. Yong
   
   τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ 
είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
   Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
   此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
   This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.

   --


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] David Grieve of Balcarres knew ALSO the Scottish style ... ;)

[Arto Wikla]

Just in case someone is interested...

  The Lady Errols delight, the 2nd way, by David Grieve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d-KkdCwOSgfeature=youtu.be
 http://vimeo.com/49778004

Best,

Arto

On 14/09/12 20:50, Arto Wikla wrote:

Dear lutenists,

if my flooding hurts, just delete ... ;-)

The very unknown David Grieve in the Balcarres ms. clearly was 
familiar also with the central European style.  Today I tried a Saraband:


   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Hi37JST_4feature=youtu.be
   http://vimeo.com/49465762

Best,

Arto

On 13/09/12 22:55, Arto Wikla wrote:

Well, I tried one much more well behaving Balcarres piece:
;-)
From the fair Lavinion shoar, David Grieve's way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdIYivEF5E8feature=youtu.be
http://vimeo.com/49398999

Arto

On 08/09/12 21:50, Arto Wikla wrote:

Dear lutenists of both Lists,

I have been trying to understand the Scottish music to baroque lute 
- very interesting combination of pentatonic Celtic music and some 
elements French baroque lute music. One interesting difficulty has 
been to make my fingers believe that they really have to play the 
pentatonic scales; they just are _so_ used to the normal major and 
minor scales that they just want to go that way, without obeying my 
orders ... ;-)


My latest Mr. Beck of ms. Balcarres was I serve a worthie lady, 
master Beck's way, to me up to now the most hard core Celtic 
piece. Below is the list of my tiny project:



I serve a worthie lady, master Beck's way (ms. Balcarres 54)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqMp9y9C_Qfeature=youtu.be
  http://vimeo.com/49075769

A new Scot's Measure, mr. Beck's way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC_PbRtUeQcfeature=youtu.be
  http://vimeo.com/48958726

Over the Dyke, and kisse her ladie, mr. Beck's way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVnkBa1hdQcfeature=youtu.be
  http://vimeo.com/48826023

The black ewe, by mr. Beck (ms. Balcarres 76)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7cy1eEKXUMfeature=youtu.be
  http://vimeo.com/48698296

Rothymay's lilt, mr. Beck's way (ms. Balcarres 73)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2e8-YP9bgAfeature=youtu.be
http://vimeo.com/48655228

Joy to the Person of my love, mr. Beck's way (ms. Balcarres 59)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h3B6kimdNIfeature=youtu.be
  http://vimeo.com/48612640

Best,

Arto

PS I guess I am mainly writing just to myself... ;-)



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[LUTE] Re: Bb-maj suite with also the WRITTEN ms.!

[Arto Wikla]

    Original Message 

   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Bb-maj suite with also the WRITTEN ms.!
  Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 22:48:05 +0300
  From: Arto Wikla [1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
To: [2]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu [3]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu

Dear baroque lutenists,

the ms. A-KR L83b is a real gem, if you happen to like well sounding,
not too difficult music to the baroque lute! As I have advertised
here, I've played some of that ms. lately. Today I combined - glued
together - some of the Bb-major pieces, to form a kind of suite. And I
also filmed and glued the original written tabulature pages to precede
the pieces following. The quality of the pictures is not too sharp, but
still readable and playable; just stop the video and learn the piece.
Then you perhaps may want to listen to my version... ;-) The links:

  [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?ve4YKnIRo4feature=youtu.be
  [5]http://vimeo.com/43312260

I hope this kind of publishing some tiny details of the original huge
ms. is not against any legal rules!

Happy playing,

Arto



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   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   2. mailto:baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?ve4YKnIRo4feature=youtu.be
   5. http://vimeo.com/43312260
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)

[Arto Wikla]

Dear fellow lutenists, 

at last I had time to make also a theorbo version of the wonderful 
Marche pour la Ceremonie des Turcs composed by Lully!
Actually it works quite well on the instrument. :-)

My theorbo transcription uses lots and LOTS of the campanella effect 
that is made possible by the re-entrant tuning of theorboes!

There are also some fingering suggestions that work at least for me. 
This version of the Marche is perhaps a little more demanding than my 
earlier lute version, but what theorbo piece wouldn't be at least a 
little difficult: theorbo is not an easy instrument! Assuming a theorbo 
in a, my transcription is in the key of e-minor.

You can find both transcriptions (10-course and theorbo) and also the 
original 5-part version by Lully in my new page:
  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/

All the best,

Arto

PS What really is the difference between English words transcription 
and arrangement (or is it arrangemant)? Which is better word for my 
tabulatures of the Marche?



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[LUTE] Re: Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)

[Arto Wikla]

Hi Roman and all,

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 A 11-13course version is at
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html

Roman, you were very fast, indeed! May I put a link to my Lully/Marche
page? Or perhaps put even a copy directly to my directory? (with a
link to polyhymnion, of course)

Arto



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[LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arto,

A transcription involves copying music from one notation
note-for-note to another, for example, re-writing lute tablature as
staff notation. For the most part, it is a mechanical job, because
the notes stay the same. (Let's not fuss about whether a
transcription into staff notation reflects things like octave
stringing, or whether it is a literal or polyphonic transcription.)

An arrangement is when you take a piece written in one medium, and
adapt it to suit another, for example, turning a 4-part chanson into
a lute trio. This requires some thought, because, unlike a
transcription where the notes stay the same, you have to judge what
fits the new medium best, and add notes or take them away.

An intabulation is when you turn music into tablature. This could be
a simple note-for-note transcription from staff notation to
tablature, or it could be an arrangement where you alter a few
things to make it fit on the lute. An example would be transposing
the note e up an octave to e' to make it easier to play:

A note-for-note transcription would produce

_a_
___
_d_
___
_e_
_f_

but if you want it to be lute friendly, you'd change it to

_a_
_c_
_d_
___
_a_
___

An intabulation might involve adding all sorts of divisions and
ornaments, which would make it an arrangement.

If your intabulation of Lully's Marche keeps all the notes as they
were, it is a transcription; if, on the other hand, you have made
some editorial decisions, like exploiting campanella effects on the
theorbo, or omitting notes which go too high, you could call it an
arrangement, but I think I would stick to the word intabulation.

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very
re-entrant! ;-)



 Dear fellow lutenists,

 at last I had time to make also a theorbo version of the wonderful
 Marche pour la Ceremonie des Turcs composed by Lully!
 Actually it works quite well on the instrument. :-)

 My theorbo transcription uses lots and LOTS of the campanella
effect
 that is made possible by the re-entrant tuning of theorboes!

 There are also some fingering suggestions that work at least for
me.
 This version of the Marche is perhaps a little more demanding
than my
 earlier lute version, but what theorbo piece wouldn't be at least
a
 little difficult: theorbo is not an easy instrument! Assuming a
theorbo
 in a, my transcription is in the key of e-minor.

 You can find both transcriptions (10-course and theorbo) and also
the
 original 5-part version by Lully in my new page:
   http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/

 All the best,

 Arto

 PS What really is the difference between English words
transcription
 and arrangement (or is it arrangemant)? Which is better word
for my
 tabulatures of the Marche?





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[LUTE] Re: Lully's Marche now also for theorbo! Very re-entrant! ;-)

[Howard Posner]

On Wednesday, Oct 18, 2006, at 13:21 America/Los_Angeles, Stewart McCoy 
wrote:

 A transcription involves copying music from one notation
 note-for-note to another, for example, re-writing lute tablature as
 staff notation. For the most part, it is a mechanical job, because
 the notes stay the same. (Let's not fuss about whether a
 transcription into staff notation reflects things like octave
 stringing, or whether it is a literal or polyphonic transcription.)

 An arrangement is when you take a piece written in one medium, and
 adapt it to suit another, for example, turning a 4-part chanson into
 a lute trio. This requires some thought, because, unlike a
 transcription where the notes stay the same, you have to judge what
 fits the new medium best, and add notes or take them away.

This is a thoughtful set of definitions, but unfortunately not the way 
the terms are commonly used.  Brahms piano somethingorothers thinned 
out to be playable on the guitar are typically called transcriptions, 
as are Stokowski's orchestral versions of Bach.  Google Stokowski Bach 
transcription (without the quotes), for example and you'll get 15,400 
hits.

HP



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[LUTE] Terzi also available from me

[LGS-Europe]

For those interested, I have a box of Terzi cds here, so I can send you one 
for 20 euro (pp included).
I have PayPal on my other email address, and don't mind cash-in envellop 
either, so contact me off-list.

David - wishing he would get as much publicity as Sting



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Bernd Haegemann]

Thank you, Katherine!


Funny finding there:

http://corsair.morganlibrary.org/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2ti=1,2SC=AuthorPID=6784SA=Marchetti,+Filippo,+1831-1902.HC=2SEQ=20060904015927SID=2

B. 



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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or com...

[KennethBeLute]

Vasari also mentions Sebastiano del Piombo as an artist who should have  
devoted more time to his art and less to the lute.
 
 
Thomas Gainsborough sought out lessons on the 13c lute from Rudolphe  
Straube.  
 
 
 
Kenneth 

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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Arne Keller]

At 08:47 02-09-2006 -0400, you wrote:


 At 10:17 01-09-2006 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote:
A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to compile a list of visual
artists also active as professional or competent amateur 
musicians/composers
(not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our time, for her master
thesis.
Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from Vasari?
RT




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 There is Mogens Zieler, father of Scottish bagpipe playing in Denmark.
And your luteplaying neighbor Steffen Gliese.
RT

Yes. Another thing:

The Pierpoint-Morgan Library in NYC.

They don't seem to have a home page, let alone a searchable catalogue.
Arthur told me about a Danish song MS in there:

...Danish song manuscript
in the Pierpont-Morgan Library in New York City.  It
cover has the embossed coat of arms of Christian VII,
King of Denmark and Norway. Call-number E 29 E: Recueil
de chansons.  The watermark has the date 1742.

Erling Moldrup has just contracted for a 1700s CD.
He has started screaming. He will be screaming for a week,
until Art is back from his holiday. A bit hard on Erling's wife.

Can you help the poor woman? Any magic you could weave re: P-M Lib.?

AK

(I should say: Magic anyone could weave, since I am now posting this to the
list, since
my message to Roman bounced. Is it verizon that just doesn't like me?)

[LUTE] OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Howard Posner]

 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
 Vasari?

Sorry, I haven't been following closely.  Has Sodoma come up?



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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[bill kilpatrick]

imagine going through life, doing what you do well,
perfecting your craft, etc., etc. and end up being
refered to as sodoma.  

was ... giovanni antonio bazzi ... a musician as well?
 local boy, dont'cha' know.

--- Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
  Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
  Vasari?
 
 Sorry, I haven't been following closely.  Has Sodoma
 come up?
 
 
 
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___ 
Yahoo! Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[LUTE] Re OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Howard Posner]

Re Sodoma, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 As a player of what?

I don't know whether he played the what, since I've never been a big 
fan of what-playing, but Vasari reports that Sodoma played a weird, 
obscure instrument called the lute.

His manner of life was licentious and dishonourable, and as he always 
had boys and beardless youths about him of whom he was inordinately 
fond, this earned him the nickname of Sodoma; but instead of feeling 
shame, he gloried in it, writing stanzas and verses on it, singing them 
to the accompaniment of the lute.

Vasari's statement about how he got the name is a bit suspect, since 
the painter had no reservations about calling himself Sodoma, which he 
would scarcely have done if it were an advertisement that he engaged in 
sex practices that could have gotten him (depending on where he was) 
whipped, castrated, stoned, burned at the stake or heavily fined.

HP

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[LUTE] Re: Re OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Stuart Walsh]

 Re Sodoma, Roman Turovsky wrote:

   
 As a player of what?
 

 I don't know whether he played the what, since I've never been a big 
 fan of what-playing, but Vasari reports that Sodoma played a weird, 
 obscure instrument called the lute.

 His manner of life was licentious and dishonourable, and as he always 
 had boys and beardless youths about him of whom he was inordinately 
 fond, this earned him the nickname of Sodoma; but instead of feeling 
 shame, he gloried in it, writing stanzas and verses on it, singing them 
 to the accompaniment of the lute.
   
I remember visiting Tuscany and somewhere or other the works of ' il 
sodoma' where all over the place. The blurbs (accompanying his works) in 
English - presumably for tourists - went on about his fondness for 
'beardless youths' (very classical Greek). There was lots of gay 
iconography but I don't remember seeing any lutes. Also, the blurb 
implied that he was more or less accepted by his contemporaries. 



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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Katherine Davies]

 Yes. Another thing:

 The Pierpoint-Morgan Library in NYC.

 They don't seem to have a home page, let alone a searchable catalogue.
 Arthur told me about a Danish song MS in there:


Try this for the  library home page:

http://www.morganlibrary.org/

and this for the catalogue:

http://corsair.morganlibrary.org/corsair_frame.html

best wishes,
Katherine

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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Tony Chalkley]

Did anyone come up with the violon d'Ingres yet?  There is also Grace 
Slick, but...

- Original Message - 
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 1:23 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional 
or competent amateur musicians/composers


 Already got Yves.
 RT

 The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing
 musicians, not the other
 way around.

 a ... too bad - bob dylan paints.

 how about yves klein:

 http://www.artep.net/kam/symphony.html







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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Arne Keller]

At 10:17 01-09-2006 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote:
A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to compile a list of visual 
artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers 
(not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our time, for her master 
thesis.
Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from Vasari?
RT 




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There is Mogens Zieler, father of Scottish bagpipe playing in Denmark.

John Renbourn was studying as a painter, but tendede to play the guitar
instead of painting.

Apity we don't know any paintings from his hand - but, then again, we are
lucky to have all the marvellous sound-paintings!

Arne.

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

 At 10:17 01-09-2006 -0400, Roman Turovsky wrote:
A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to compile a list of visual
artists also active as professional or competent amateur 
musicians/composers
(not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our time, for her master
thesis.
Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from Vasari?
RT




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 There is Mogens Zieler, father of Scottish bagpipe playing in Denmark.
And your luteplaying neighbor Steffen Gliese.
RT



 John Renbourn was studying as a painter, but tendede to play the guitar
 instead of painting.

 Apity we don't know any paintings from his hand - but, then again, we are
 lucky to have all the marvellous sound-paintings!

 Arne.





 

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[David Rastall]

I wonder if the musical prodigies among the Sauschek family were  
given to painting at all...?

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

 many of the medical people i've known in my life have
 also been involved in the arts in someway.

 musicians who paint (on-going list:)

 - tony bennet
 - frank sinatra
That's not quite the level or the order needed.

This is my preliminary list of ARTISTS:
Tatlin- bandura + mandolin
Petrov-Vodkin- violin
Klee- violin
Feininger- piano + composition
Ingres- violin
Brancusi- violin
Svarog- torban + guitar
Cezanne- cornet
Fedotov- guitar + composition
Caravaggio- lute
Rosso Fiorentino- lute
Ciurlionis- composition + piano
Orazia Gentilleschi- lute
Bruce Nauman - violin
Yves Klein - piano
Taras Shevchenko- guitar
Titian- viola da gamba
Tintoretto- viola da gamba
Veronese- viola da gamba
Leonardo- flute + viola da mano
Georg Gebel- composition + lute + harpsichord
RT





 an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.

 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
 compile a list of visual
 artists also active as professional or competent
 amateur musicians/composers
 (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
 time, for her master
 thesis.
 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
 Vasari?
 RT




 To get on or off this list see list information at

 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Roman,
Three that immediately spring to mind:
Giorgione was a fine lute player according to Vasari,
and Vasari  also writes about Leonardo playing the lyre.
In the 20th century the painter Robert Bouchet both
played and built guitars.

Best wishes,

Denys



- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: [LUTE] OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or
competent amateur musicians/composers


 A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to compile a list of visual
 artists also active as professional or competent amateur
musicians/composers
 (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our time, for her master
 thesis.
 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from Vasari?
 RT




 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



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 Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
 Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 25/08/2006





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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

Also Nicolas Lanier apparently.
RT

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 According to Vasari, Veronese and Parmigianino.


 -- Original message --
 From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to compile a list of visual
 artists also active as professional or competent amateur 
 musicians/composers
 (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our time, for her master
 thesis.
 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from Vasari?
 RT




 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


 

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Nancy Carlin]

Add to that:
Joni Mitchell
Jerry Garcia
Buffy St. Marie

Nancy Carlin

many of the medical people i've known in my life have
also been involved in the arts in someway.

musicians who paint (on-going list:)

- tony bennet
- frank sinatra

an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.

--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
  compile a list of visual
  artists also active as professional or competent
  amateur musicians/composers
  (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
  time, for her master
  thesis.
  Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
  Vasari?
  RT
 
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 



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Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[bill kilpatrick]

--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 That's not quite the level or the order needed.

snob ...

there's also:

- brian eno
- brian ferry
- ray davies

.. in fact, practically every 60's rn'rer graduated
from art school.

- david bowie - he is (was?) mr. money for a british
magazine called modern painters.

i think you deserve a seat at the top table too. 




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

Jerry doesn't quite make the grade.
RT
- Original Message - 
From: Nancy Carlin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roman Turovsky 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:14 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional 
or competent amateur musicians/composers


 Add to that:
 Joni Mitchell
 Jerry Garcia
 Buffy St. Marie

 Nancy Carlin

many of the medical people i've known in my life have
also been involved in the arts in someway.

musicians who paint (on-going list:)

- tony bennet
- frank sinatra

an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.

--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
  compile a list of visual
  artists also active as professional or competent
  amateur musicians/composers
  (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
  time, for her master
  thesis.
  Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
  Vasari?
  RT
 
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 



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 Nancy Carlin Associates
 P.O. Box 6499
 Concord, CA 94524  USA
 phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
 Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
 web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

 --
 

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Ed Durbrow]

Musicians:
Hildegard von Bingen
Schoenberg
Joni Mitchell
Captain Beefhart (Don Van Vliet)

Other:
Henry Miller (piano)
Rabindranath Tagore

On Sep 2, 2006, at 1:21 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 many of the medical people i've known in my life have
 also been involved in the arts in someway.

 musicians who paint (on-going list:)

 - tony bennet
 - frank sinatra
 That's not quite the level or the order needed.

Not counting Jazz/popular?

 This is my preliminary list of ARTISTS:
 Tatlin- bandura + mandolin
 Petrov-Vodkin- violin
 Klee- violin
 Feininger- piano + composition
 Ingres- violin
 Brancusi- violin
 Svarog- torban + guitar
 Cezanne- cornet
 Fedotov- guitar + composition
 Caravaggio- lute
 Rosso Fiorentino- lute
 Ciurlionis- composition + piano
 Orazia Gentilleschi- lute
 Bruce Nauman - violin
 Yves Klein - piano
 Taras Shevchenko- guitar
 Titian- viola da gamba
 Tintoretto- viola da gamba
 Veronese- viola da gamba
 Leonardo- flute + viola da mano
 Georg Gebel- composition + lute + harpsichord
 RT





 an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.

 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
 compile a list of visual
 artists also active as professional or competent
 amateur musicians/composers
 (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
 time, for her master
 thesis.
 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
 Vasari?
 RT




 To get on or off this list see list information at

 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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 address
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Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



--

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 That's not quite the level or the order needed.

 snob ...
The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing musicians, not the other 
way around.


 there's also:

 - brian eno
 - brian ferry
 - ray davies
URLs?

 .. in fact, practically every 60's rn'rer graduated
 from art school.

 - david bowie - he is (was?) mr. money for a british
 magazine called modern painters.

 i think you deserve a seat at the top table too.
Not to mention you...
RT 




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[LGS-Europe]

 The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing musicians, not the other
 way around.

Hieke Meppelink, Dutch soprano/sculptor.
http://www.hiekemeppelink.nl/

David 




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Stuart LeBlanc]

Jean-Michel Basquiat played electric slide guitar (appropriately, with a knife)


-Original Message-
From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:22 AM
To: bill kilpatrick; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as
professional or competent amateur musicians/composers


 many of the medical people i've known in my life have
 also been involved in the arts in someway.

 musicians who paint (on-going list:)

 - tony bennet
 - frank sinatra
That's not quite the level or the order needed.

This is my preliminary list of ARTISTS:
Tatlin- bandura + mandolin
Petrov-Vodkin- violin
Klee- violin
Feininger- piano + composition
Ingres- violin
Brancusi- violin
Svarog- torban + guitar
Cezanne- cornet
Fedotov- guitar + composition
Caravaggio- lute
Rosso Fiorentino- lute
Ciurlionis- composition + piano
Orazia Gentilleschi- lute
Bruce Nauman - violin
Yves Klein - piano
Taras Shevchenko- guitar
Titian- viola da gamba
Tintoretto- viola da gamba
Veronese- viola da gamba
Leonardo- flute + viola da mano
Georg Gebel- composition + lute + harpsichord
RT





 an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.

 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
 compile a list of visual
 artists also active as professional or competent
 amateur musicians/composers
 (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
 time, for her master
 thesis.
 Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
 Vasari?
 RT




 To get on or off this list see list information at

 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




 ___
 The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address 
 from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
 

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Arthur Ness]

Domenico Bianchini was by profession a moaicist. Worked
in Pisa and at St. Mark's in Venice.  two ofthe 
ricercars in his book are intabulations of organ 
ricercars by julio da modena, who was first organist at 
st. mark's at the same time.  If Binachini took his lute 
up on the scaffolding, perhaps that was the first 
instances of chori spezzati, with Bianchini providing a 
heavenly echo when Julio played down below.

Piston started as a draftsman.  He did all the line
drawings for his orchestragtion book, for example. He is 
sometimes credited with designing the mechanism that 
opened the doors of Boston trolley cars.  But that is 
not true.  He made the drawings for the engineer who had 
designed the mechanism.

Later he did oil painting (not very good ones).  You can 
see samples in the
Piston Room at the Boston Public Library. The room is a
re-creation of his study. Leaning up zgainst his desk is 
the beat-up old brief
case he always carried.

==ajn

- Original Message - 
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; bill
kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also
active as professional or competent amateur
musicians/composers


 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 That's not quite the level or the order needed.

 snob ...
 The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing
 musicians, not the other
 way around.


 there's also:

 - brian eno
 - brian ferry
 - ray davies
 URLs?

 .. in fact, practically every 60's rn'rer graduated
 from art school.

 - david bowie - he is (was?) mr. money for a british
 magazine called modern painters.

 i think you deserve a seat at the top table too.
 Not to mention you...
 RT




 ___
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 Transfer
 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much
 more.
 Signup at www.doteasy.com



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[bill kilpatrick]

--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing
 musicians, not the other 
 way around.

a ... too bad - bob dylan paints.

how about yves klein:

http://www.artep.net/kam/symphony.html







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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Robert Clair]

You forgot Maitsse (violin)

My memory is hazy, but I think you can see his violin in the museum  
in Nice.

...Bob



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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[bill kilpatrick]

a google image search for painter musician produced
quite a few contemporary artists - some of whom seem
awfully intense, staring into the camera. 




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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Sal Salvaggio]

Django Reinhardt!

--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 many of the medical people i've known in my life
 have
 also been involved in the arts in someway. 
 
 musicians who paint (on-going list:)
 
 - tony bennet
 - frank sinatra
 
 an actor but lee marvin was a wonderful painter.
 
 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  A friend in Ukraine has asked me to help her to
  compile a list of visual 
  artists also active as professional or competent
  amateur musicians/composers 
  (not necessarily lutenists) from antiquity to our
  time, for her master 
  thesis.
  Any ideas from the Collective Wisdom? Or from
  Vasari?
  RT 
  
  
  
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
 

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  
 
 
   

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 your email address from your Internet provider.
 http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
 
 
 


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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Arto Wikla]

One visual artist who also composed and performed some
music is John Lennon.

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also active as professional or competent amateur musicians/composers

[Roman Turovsky]

Thanks, that reminded me that Bianchini was one of personages in a Georges 
Sand novella.
RT

 Domenico Bianchini was by profession a moaicist. Worked
 in Pisa and at St. Mark's in Venice.  two ofthe
 ricercars in his book are intabulations of organ
 ricercars by julio da modena, who was first organist at
 st. mark's at the same time.  If Binachini took his lute
 up on the scaffolding, perhaps that was the first
 instances of chori spezzati, with Bianchini providing a
 heavenly echo when Julio played down below.

 Piston started as a draftsman.  He did all the line
 drawings for his orchestragtion book, for example. He is
 sometimes credited with designing the mechanism that
 opened the doors of Boston trolley cars.  But that is
 not true.  He made the drawings for the engineer who had
 designed the mechanism.

 Later he did oil painting (not very good ones).  You can
 see samples in the
 Piston Room at the Boston Public Library. The room is a
 re-creation of his study. Leaning up zgainst his desk is
 the beat-up old brief
 case he always carried.

 ==ajn
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; bill
 kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:31 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: list of visual artists also
 active as professional or competent amateur
 musicians/composers


 --- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 That's not quite the level or the order needed.

 snob ...
 The quest is for ARTISTS who were also practicing
 musicians, not the other
 way around.


 there's also:

 - brian eno
 - brian ferry
 - ray davies
 URLs?

 .. in fact, practically every 60's rn'rer graduated
 from art school.

 - david bowie - he is (was?) mr. money for a british
 magazine called modern painters.

 i think you deserve a seat at the top table too.
 Not to mention you...
 RT




 ___
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 Transfer
 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much
 more.
 Signup at www.doteasy.com



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




 

Re: Was vihuelina, now bordon and also doubling the bass by the sopran

[bill kilpatrick]

the more i think about it, this idea of the bordon
as a word to signify a walking bass line is not all
that farfetched.  walking rhythm is implied in all the
dictionary definitions supplied by manolo; walking
stick, plodding mule, short sword hitting the thigh as
one walks along, children singing a simple, repetitive
bass line ...

baroque bluesmen you'awl?

- bill 

--- Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Tony, dear Monica, dear list,
 
 in the spanish ethimological dictionary by Corominas
 (1980), under 
 bordón, it is said more or less the same as in
 Covarrubias (1611), but 
 in our time's way: more scientifically.
 
 So bordón (= walking stick) derives from the latin
 word burdo (= 
 mule, the animal, in spanish mula or mulo). In
 spanish we have also 
 muleta (= crutch) related with the very same
 animal, the mula or 
 mulo. Bordón also means the insect, but
 Corominas says it is an 
 onomatopoeia with no ethimologic relationship to
 bordón as stick.
 
 But wait !
 
 In the recent Diccionario del español actual, a
 gigantic work, where 
 the relation with the insect is not  reflected,
 there is a curious 
 meaning that could interest us a lot:
 
 En una serie de acordes de tres sonidos, en estado
 fundamental, la voz 
 más grave -bordón- era cantada por voces de niños o
 de mujeres, sonando 
 por encima del conjunto y produciendo una sonoridad
 grata y dulce.
 
 In a serie of three sounds chords, in fundamental
 form, the lowest 
 voice -bordón- was sung by children or women,
 sounding above the whole 
 and producing a nice and sweet sonority.
 
 This dictionary tries to reflect how the words are
 used today. The three 
 authors consulted for that purpose thousands of
 books, brochures, 
 fliers, etc. I will search for the book where the
 above phrase is taken 
 from.
 
 Saludos,
 
 Manolo Laguillo
 
 
 Tony Chalkley wrote:
 
 Dear Manolo,
 
 Does this mean that in Spanish the word bordon
 never had the meaning of a
 bee, (bourdon in French and for other instruments
 drone)?
 
 Yours,
 
 Tony
 - Original Message -
 From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 8:03 PM
 Subject: Re: vihuelina, and now bordon
 
 
   
 
 Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
 
 
 
 Dear Monica
 How do we know about the guitar in re-entrant
 tuning in 16th c. Spain?
 There is this one reference in Mudarra: '...a de
 tener bordon en la
   
 
 quarta'.
   
 
 It may be the only information we have. That's a
 reason to be cautious
   
 
 with
   
 
 interpretations.
 
 You suggest that the word 'bordon' can not be
 used in any other way than
 'string which sounds an octave below' here. About
 the alternative
 explanation of the terminology 'bordon' you say
 that 'the Spanish just
 doesn't mean that'. Maybe Spanish speaking list
 members would like toRe:
   
 
 vihuelina,
   
 
 comment?
 
   
 
 I bought yesterday the Covarrubias spanish
 dictionary (1611), an
 absolutely marvelous lecture, incredibly
 entertaining.
 
 The word bordón has two entries:
 
 BORDÓN. El báculo en que se sustenta el que camina
 a pie y le sirve de
 cavallo, aunque bastardo; y por esso se llamó
 bordón, a burdo, como se
 dixo muleta de mula. Y porque los religiosos de la
 orden de San
 Francisco caminan de ordinario a pie con alguna
 cayada o báculo, le
 llamaron el cavallo de San Francisco. Antiguamente
 dixeron mulos
 marianos unos palos en que los pobres suelen
 llevar sus hatillos
 cargándolos sobre el hombro, y llamáronse assi por
 aver sido invención
 de Caio Mario, capitán romano, dando orden como
 sus soldados aligerassen
 su carga y la llevassen a cuestas, que por esto
 dizen algunos aver
 llamado a los mesmos soldados mulos, porque como
 tales los llevava
 cargados. Vide Frontinum, lib. 4, Stratagematum.
 
 BORDÓN. En el instrumento músico de cuerdas es la
 que suena octava abaxo
 y algunas que están fuera de las que se huellan en
 el cuello del
 instrumento, que se tocan tan solamente en vacío
 para dar las octavas.
 Bordoncillo, el versecico quebrado o presa que se
 repite en la poesía,
 que a ciertas medidas se acude a él, como para
 descansar de la corriente
 que llevan las rimas. Y lo mesmo se dirá del
 bordón de los instrumentos,
 porque se descansa en él con la consonancia y con
 el final. Estos versos
 se llaman intercalares. Quando alguno tiene por
 costumbre, yendo
 hablando, entremeter alguna palabra que la repite
 muchas vezes y sin
 necessidad, dezimos que es aquel su bordonzillo,
 porque entretanto
 descansa en él y piensa lo que ha de dezir, como:
 Bien me entiende V.
 M.: Sepa V. M.; Ya digo; Por manera señor, y otras
 palabras semejantes a
 éstas.
 
 
 The first one explains bordón as a walking
 stick. I include it
 without translation for the Spanish speaking list
 members. It has to do
 with the second one, which I will try to translate
 the best as I can:
 
 In the music string instrument it is (the string)
 that sounds (an)
 octave

Was vihuelina, now bordon and also doubling the bass by the sopran

[Manolo Laguillo]

Dear Tony, dear Monica, dear list,

in the spanish ethimological dictionary by Corominas (1980), under 
bordón, it is said more or less the same as in Covarrubias (1611), but 
in our time's way: more scientifically.

So bordón (= walking stick) derives from the latin word burdo (= 
mule, the animal, in spanish mula or mulo). In spanish we have also 
muleta (= crutch) related with the very same animal, the mula or 
mulo. Bordón also means the insect, but Corominas says it is an 
onomatopoeia with no ethimologic relationship to bordón as stick.

But wait !

In the recent Diccionario del español actual, a gigantic work, where 
the relation with the insect is not  reflected, there is a curious 
meaning that could interest us a lot:

En una serie de acordes de tres sonidos, en estado fundamental, la voz 
más grave -bordón- era cantada por voces de niños o de mujeres, sonando 
por encima del conjunto y produciendo una sonoridad grata y dulce.

In a serie of three sounds chords, in fundamental form, the lowest 
voice -bordón- was sung by children or women, sounding above the whole 
and producing a nice and sweet sonority.

This dictionary tries to reflect how the words are used today. The three 
authors consulted for that purpose thousands of books, brochures, 
fliers, etc. I will search for the book where the above phrase is taken 
from.

Saludos,

Manolo Laguillo


Tony Chalkley wrote:

Dear Manolo,

Does this mean that in Spanish the word bordon never had the meaning of a
bee, (bourdon in French and for other instruments drone)?

Yours,

Tony
- Original Message -
From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: vihuelina, and now bordon


  

Lex Eisenhardt wrote:



Dear Monica
How do we know about the guitar in re-entrant tuning in 16th c. Spain?
There is this one reference in Mudarra: '...a de tener bordon en la
  

quarta'.
  

It may be the only information we have. That's a reason to be cautious
  

with
  

interpretations.

You suggest that the word 'bordon' can not be used in any other way than
'string which sounds an octave below' here. About the alternative
explanation of the terminology 'bordon' you say that 'the Spanish just
doesn't mean that'. Maybe Spanish speaking list members would like toRe:
  

vihuelina,
  

comment?

  

I bought yesterday the Covarrubias spanish dictionary (1611), an
absolutely marvelous lecture, incredibly entertaining.

The word bordón has two entries:

BORDÓN. El báculo en que se sustenta el que camina a pie y le sirve de
cavallo, aunque bastardo; y por esso se llamó bordón, a burdo, como se
dixo muleta de mula. Y porque los religiosos de la orden de San
Francisco caminan de ordinario a pie con alguna cayada o báculo, le
llamaron el cavallo de San Francisco. Antiguamente dixeron mulos
marianos unos palos en que los pobres suelen llevar sus hatillos
cargándolos sobre el hombro, y llamáronse assi por aver sido invención
de Caio Mario, capitán romano, dando orden como sus soldados aligerassen
su carga y la llevassen a cuestas, que por esto dizen algunos aver
llamado a los mesmos soldados mulos, porque como tales los llevava
cargados. Vide Frontinum, lib. 4, Stratagematum.

BORDÓN. En el instrumento músico de cuerdas es la que suena octava abaxo
y algunas que están fuera de las que se huellan en el cuello del
instrumento, que se tocan tan solamente en vacío para dar las octavas.
Bordoncillo, el versecico quebrado o presa que se repite en la poesía,
que a ciertas medidas se acude a él, como para descansar de la corriente
que llevan las rimas. Y lo mesmo se dirá del bordón de los instrumentos,
porque se descansa en él con la consonancia y con el final. Estos versos
se llaman intercalares. Quando alguno tiene por costumbre, yendo
hablando, entremeter alguna palabra que la repite muchas vezes y sin
necessidad, dezimos que es aquel su bordonzillo, porque entretanto
descansa en él y piensa lo que ha de dezir, como: Bien me entiende V.
M.: Sepa V. M.; Ya digo; Por manera señor, y otras palabras semejantes a
éstas.


The first one explains bordón as a walking stick. I include it
without translation for the Spanish speaking list members. It has to do
with the second one, which I will try to translate the best as I can:

In the music string instrument it is (the string) that sounds (an)
octave down, and also some (of the strings) that are appart from the
ones that are stepped on the instrument's neck, and (therefore) are
played unstepped for giving the octaves. Bordoncillo (-cillo,
diminuitive suffix), the small verse repeated in poetry (...), the sense
of it being a rest in the middle of the rime's fluency. And the same
will be said from the instrument's bordón, because on it happens the
resting with the consonancy and the end. These verses are called
intercalares. When someone usually puts, when speaking, a word, often
repeated and without necessity, we say that it is his

Re: also Viola picture

[Roger E. Blumberg]

- Original Message -
From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Roger E. Blumberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: also Viola picture

 
  Hi Rosinfiorini;
 
  let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general,  and
the
  way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw
  good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face,
 as
  it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective
 and
  geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can
 see
  how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one
  connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective
on
  the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps,
 but
  not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the
 door
  (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I
 believe.
  So, if  for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that
we're
  looking at one connected piece of bridgework.
 
  In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette
 pack
  upright on it's long narrow edge on top of  the face of that instrument,
  perpendicular to the face of the viola.
  http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg
   can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of
  perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2
 or
  3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see
it
  for the bridge?
 
  Thanks
  Roger
 


 just another bit of detail to add to the mix (I don't know here else to
tack
 it, so I'll put it here);

 regarding the likelihood of the Viti viola having originally been a 4 or 5
 stringed machine, and that it better defaults to a plucked viola as well
 (and no kind of even 5 string bowed viol), see the width of the tail
piece,
 and the exteme paths and angles the strings need to take to reach the 1st
 and 6th slots of the bridge, and then they head in the sharp opposite
 direction after the bridge to meet the nut slots.
 http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg

 Under tension those strings will want to walk up the bridge to rest closer
 to center, closer to a straight line path -- tail to nut. They'll jump
their
 bridge slots guaranteed.

 Now compare the width of a true real dedicated and better
developed/refined
 6 string gamba as again seen in the 1502 fresco grouping.  I'll isolate
one
 instrument.
 http://www.thecipher.com/AngelConsort1503single.jpg

 See the wide width of the tail behind the bridge, and the better string
path
 that would create? Some of that greater width is shadow I think, but it's
 still much wider than on the Viti viola, wide enough for six strings to
fit
 comfortably, and the string path is much straighter from tail to bridge,
 pretty much a straight line.

 even the tail-width of this true dedicated bowed 5 stringer is wider than
 the Viti tail.
 http://www.thecipher.com/oldestGamba-40p.jpg

 The Viti tail and neck width _are_ in good proportion to each other, the
 plucking bridge (if it is) is also in good proportion to tail width and
neck
 width. But neither that bowing bridge's width, nor 6 strings, are
 proportional for that instrument.

 I think maybe we are getting closer to unraveling this.

 Roger


Here's an interesting comparison:

Viti's 1505 viol
http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg

Raphael's viol of 1514
http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg

(again, Raphael was one of Viti's students.)

Compare the look and feel, scale and proportions, design refinement,
technologies, etc between these two instruments. Raphael's is the real deal
and state of the art. Viti's is of an older pattern (and a later-day
conversion I still believe).

(And I dare any guitarist in the world to not recognize his own instrument
when he sees it -- there in Raphael's painting ;')

The viol Raphael painted is a stunning peice of work. You can even see that
the end of the fretboard is up off the deck  The edge bindings all around
the body are a nice little surprise to. It's nice to see just how
deep-bodied those instruments really were. You can also see the greater
depth in the Borgia Apt viola, but Raphael's is up close and unmistakeable.
http://www.thecipher.com/violasineacrulo_Borgia1493bw.jpg

The bridge is still attached to Raphael's viol (must be glued down) . It
looks like it belongs there, it's fit, scale, position on the face, look
right. In all, it's still higher, and the neck/fretboard is still narrower
than I might have expected, but I believe this one. The fretboard evelation
on this one does help justify the bridge height though. Notice how thin and
narrow the foot of this bridge is, and how high the center cut-out is.  I
don't see either of those things

Re: also Viola picture

[Roger E. Blumberg]

- Original Message -
From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: also Viola picture




 actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that
it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark
stripe.
 I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image
and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg
 :)

but then, it might be a _broken_ bridge, in two pieces, and perhaps even a
bridge from a larger instrument, because even the remaining piece being used
currently is raising the strings too high and too wide. Maybe the bridge is
from a larger, later, dedicated (and 6 stringed) bowed viola and the only
way to
make it fit is to break off the top half, use it, save the broke bit where
we see it stored now? If you were to stack those two bits on top of each
other I think the action would then be outrageously high. If you stood the
broken base up and placed the bowing edge back on top of it, that might
narrow the percieved string spacing as it approaches the neck and on towards
the nut, though.

I 'm still thinking this is a conversion chop-job of some kind. Probably an
older 5 string plucked viola repurposed as a 6 string gamba. The fretboard
looks flat-on-the-deck, and that diamond rosette detail at the foot of the
fretboard is seen in a narrow band of time on 5 course lutes (if I recall
right
from Van Edwards' web site), something like 1450-90. Look at the side
profile of this 1503 gamba (far left) . . .
http://www.thecipher.com/violAngelConsort1503lrg.jpg
. . . see the elevated fretboard (lets the top vibrate more freely) and
dished out face. That appears to me to be a later design refinement -- one
that was to be retained thereafter (once it cought on and spread widely).
See the neck joint on this reproduction 17th cent viol, elevated, wide, and
radiused . .
http://www.thecipher.com/viol_neck_joint.jpg
that's what I mean about the difference between the fretboard on the Viti
instrument being flat, and flat on the deck, guitar and lute style, not
elevated in later gamba style. The Viti viol looks old technology by
comparison, guitaresque, and maybe even 5 string originally -- the neck is
just too narrow. It's also proportionally very long, long like the Borgia
plucked viola
http://www.thecipher.com/violasineacrulo_Borgia1493bw.jpg

If not a broken bowing bridge in two pieces, it could still be a plucking
bridge tucked away and an ill fitting, ill seated, entirely improvised
bowing bridge currently in place.  I don't know any more ;')

I sure wish we could see a good photo of the painting and in color. That
would remove a lot of speculation and wrong alleys.

whatever it is, it sure is strange, and interesting -- that the artist left
it like that, purposely not prettying it up. It certainly does add
interest -- to whit this discussion and incident  ;')  -- as yet unresoved.

I never expected nor even wanted to find a dual bridge specimen (if that's
what it is). That the two types, plucked and bowed, are so obvouisly related
though, so close in anatomy, tuned and played the same way, played by the
same persons, that we can even talk about them so easily in the same breath,
is really the point. Any way you look at it they are very close siblings.

Roger



 --

 Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr


 --

 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: also Viola picture

[Roger E. Blumberg]

- Original Message -
From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: also Viola picture



 - Original Message -
 From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM
 Subject: also Viola picture


 
 
  actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent
that
 it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a
dark
 stripe.
  I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the
image
 and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here:
 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg
  :)
  --


 Hi Rosinfiorini;

 let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general,  and the
 way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw
 good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face,
as
 it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective
and
 geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can
see
 how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one
 connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on
 the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps,
but
 not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the
door
 (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I
believe.
 So, if  for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're
 looking at one connected piece of bridgework.

 In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette
pack
 upright on it's long narrow edge on top of  the face of that instrument,
 perpendicular to the face of the viola.
 http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg
  can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of
 perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2
or
 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it
 for the bridge?

 Thanks
 Roger


I'm sending these bits below, just because I happened to do a quick check on
the date of Durer's perspective. He published his book in 1525, 20 years or
so after the Viti viol was painted, but he had traveled to Italy to learn
about prespective in the first place, which investigations had been underway
in Italy for quite some time. This is just to point out that the idea of
good rendering was very much in the air, a point of pride, effort, and
study, in Renaissance Italy -- contemporary with Viti.

Roger

http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html
Durer's Polyhedra
Albrecht Durer, the remarkable German renaissance printmaker (1471-1528),
made an important contribution to the polyhedral literature in his 1525
book, Underweysung der Messung, available in English translation as
Painter's Manual. It was one of the first books to teach the methods of
perspective, and was highly regarded throughout the sixteenth century.
Durer travelled to Italy to learn perspective and wanted to publish the
methods so they were not kept secret among a few artists.  Who he learned
from is not known, but Luca Pacioli is a likely possibility.  Some of the
techniques and illustrations follow very closely the work of Piero della
Francesca.


http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/pacioli.html

Luca Pacioli (1445 - 1514, sometimes Paciolo) is the central figure in
this painting (by Jacopo de Barbari*, 1495).  Perhaps no other work so
epitomizes the deep Renaissance connection between art and mathematics.
Pacioli (a Franciscan friar, shown in his robes) stands at a table filled
with geometrical tools (slate, chalk, compass, dodecahedron model, etc.),
illustrating a theorem from Euclid, while examining a beautiful glass
rhombicuboctahedron half-filled with water.

Every aspect of the picture has been composed meaningfully, and art
historians have analyzed it at length, yet the figure at right remains a
mystery.  For two rather different conclusions, see the references by M.
Davis (who suspects the figure is a self-portrait of the painter) and N.
MacKinnon (who proposes that the figure is Albrecht Durer---compare Durer's
1498 self-portrait).



http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/piero.html

  Piero della Francesca's Polyhedra
  Piero della Francesca (1410(?) - 1492) was an outstanding 15th century
Renaissance artist, both a mathematician and a painter.  His genius in
developing the new methods of perspective and employing them in his
paintings has withstood the centuries. However, his well-deserved
mathematical reputation was lost and only has been regained in this century.
That loss was largely due to the fact that Pacioli plagarized Piero's major
writings shortly after Piero's death, incorporating them into his published
books without attribution

Re: also Viola picture

[Roger E. Blumberg]

- Original Message -
From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: also Viola picture



 - Original Message -
 From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM
 Subject: also Viola picture


 
 
  actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent
that
 it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a
dark
 stripe.
  I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the
image
 and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here:
 http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg
  :)
  --


 Hi Rosinfiorini;

 let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general,  and the
 way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw
 good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face,
as
 it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective
and
 geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can
see
 how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one
 connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on
 the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps,
but
 not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the
door
 (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I
believe.
 So, if  for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're
 looking at one connected piece of bridgework.

 In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette
pack
 upright on it's long narrow edge on top of  the face of that instrument,
 perpendicular to the face of the viola.
 http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg
  can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of
 perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2
or
 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it
 for the bridge?

 Thanks
 Roger



just another bit of detail to add to the mix (I don't know here else to tack
it, so I'll put it here);

regarding the likelihood of the Viti viola having originally been a 4 or 5
stringed machine, and that it better defaults to a plucked viola as well
(and no kind of even 5 string bowed viol), see the width of the tail piece,
and the exteme paths and angles the strings need to take to reach the 1st
and 6th slots of the bridge, and then they head in the sharp opposite
direction after the bridge to meet the nut slots.
http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg

Under tension those strings will want to walk up the bridge to rest closer
to center, closer to a straight line path -- tail to nut. They'll jump their
bridge slots guaranteed.

Now compare the width of a true real dedicated and better developed/refined
6 string gamba as again seen in the 1502 fresco grouping.  I'll isolate one
instrument.
http://www.thecipher.com/AngelConsort1503single.jpg

See the wide width of the tail behind the bridge, and the better string path
that would create? Some of that greater width is shadow I think, but it's
still much wider than on the Viti viola, wide enough for six strings to fit
comfortably, and the string path is much straighter from tail to bridge,
pretty much a straight line.

even the tail-width of this true dedicated bowed 5 stringer is wider than
the Viti tail.
http://www.thecipher.com/oldestGamba-40p.jpg

The Viti tail and neck width _are_ in good proportion to each other, the
plucking bridge (if it is) is also in good proportion to tail width and neck
width. But neither that bowing bridge's width, nor 6 strings, are
proportional for that instrument.

I think maybe we are getting closer to unraveling this.

Roger



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: also Viola picture

[Roger E. Blumberg]

- Original Message -
From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM
Subject: also Viola picture




 actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that
it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark
stripe.
 I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image
and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg
 :)
 --

Hi again;

but this one is pure fantasy ;')
I know you spent a lot of time on that, but that's really a stretch my
freind.

Thanks
Roger




 Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr


 --

 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Carl Donsbach]

Ed, Michael, et al.,

You're thinking of the Dampit?  It's a rubber tube with holes along its 
length and a stopper at the end.  It works well for instruments with small 
violin type f holes - you insert the tube and the stopper keeps it from 
falling in all the way.  The idea I guess is to keep the inside of the 
instrument humid but not damp up the tuning pegs.

On a lute though, there would be no place to insert it.  Your sponge idea 
would probably be the best (cheapest?) way to go there.

I bought a dampit for my viol on eBay a while back, which was kind of 
funny, because when you do a search for dampit you get a message reading 
Did you mean... dammit ? 

-Carl Donsbach


--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:10 PM +0900 Ed Durbrow 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 How does one hydrate the wood without problems?

 Keep one of those moisture tubes in the case. I forget what they are
 called, Moist-it or something. You could improvise just as well: a
 sponge in a container with air holes would do it.

 cheers,
 --
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Re: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Jon Murphy]

If you want to small humidifier for the lute case try a cigar store. They
have simple devices that can be stuck to the lid of a case (and are designed
for a cigar or pipe tobacco humidor).

 My big question now is...How does one feed the wood so it's not so dried
 out and stuff?  I am pretty sure Lemon Pledge is out of the question.  How
 does one hydrate the wood without problems?

Forget the Lemon Pledge, it is a wax. Wax doesn't feed the wood. Not
knowing how Larry has finished the soundboard I can't say if the finish will
block the hydration, but often the back of the board isn't finished so
will accept the humidity of the ambient environment (fancy way to say your
humidified case). On the harps I build I use a clear Tung Oil finish,
rather than any shellac or varnish. But most instruments are finished with
one of the latter. Wood likes oil, but it ain't as hard or shiny as the
traditional finishes. Whatever, let the wood absorb moisture gradually, it
will swell a bit and the crack should diminish.

Best, Jon

Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Michael]

I called Rich Worthington here in Saint Louis.  He has fixed lutes in the
past.  In fact, my old lute teacher got his lute repaired by this man, so I
should feel confident in driving mine over today.

That's what I'm doing at 6 this evening!

He will most likely do a glue fix on the small fracture that runs WITH the
wood grain.  Once the lute is tuned, it becomes visible.  

It really shouldn't effect the sound.  I've taken very good care of the
instrument over the years.

My big question now is...How does one feed the wood so it's not so dried
out and stuff?  I am pretty sure Lemon Pledge is out of the question.  How
does one hydrate the wood without problems?

Thank you so much!

Michael

RE: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[timothy motz]

Mike,
I would say, to start with, keep it in its case unless you are
playing it.  Keep it away from heat sources, which would include not
leaving it in a window or a hot car in the summer.

The splitting is caused by the wood of the soundboard shrinking
because it's too dry. Dryness is mainly a problem in the winter when
the heat is on.  If you control the heat in your home (i.e. it's not
an apartment with the heat controlled by the landlord), don't set the
thermostat above 70 degrees Farenheit.  Humidity is relative to
temperature.  If you lower the temperature, the relative humidity
goes up.  A lot of Americans like the temperature in their homes in
the winter to be 74 degrees Farenheit or above.  It's hard to keep
the humidity up when it's that warm. 

I have seen humidifiers for guitars that are inserted in the sound
hole, but that wouldn't work with a lute.  I have heard of people
putting damp sponges inside bags in their lute cases to keep the
instrument from drying out, but if you do that you would want a
hygrometer in the case as well.  It would probably be safer to keep a
humidifier going in the room, with a hygrometer in the case with the
instrument.  I've seen paper strip hygrometers used in museums that
change color at different relative humidities.  They would fit in a
case and would be accurate enough to let you know that things were
getting too dry.

The British Lute Society sells a booklet on the care of lutes written
by David Van Edwards.  It's well worth the small price they charge
for it.  Plus they sell books of music for different levels of
players.  You can get the prices from their web site and order the
books by fax.  

Tim



 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO,
HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:15:31 -0500

I called Rich Worthington here in Saint Louis.  He has fixed lutes
in the
past.  In fact, my old lute teacher got his lute repaired by this
man, so I
should feel confident in driving mine over today.

That's what I'm doing at 6 this evening!

He will most likely do a glue fix on the small fracture that runs
WITH the
wood grain.  Once the lute is tuned, it becomes visible.  

It really shouldn't effect the sound.  I've taken very good care of
the
instrument over the years.

My big question now is...How does one feed the wood so it's not so
dried
out and stuff?  I am pretty sure Lemon Pledge is out of the
question.  How
does one hydrate the wood without problems?

Thank you so much!

Michael

Re: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Vance Wood]

Hydrate with a humidifier.  A lot of Guitar shops carry little humidity
devises for putting in the guitar case I assume that would work with the
Lute as well.  I am also assuming that since I bought my humidifier there
have been many and more sophisticated devices available.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE
ANOTHER QUESTION


 I called Rich Worthington here in Saint Louis.  He has fixed lutes in the
 past.  In fact, my old lute teacher got his lute repaired by this man, so
I
 should feel confident in driving mine over today.

 That's what I'm doing at 6 this evening!

 He will most likely do a glue fix on the small fracture that runs WITH the
 wood grain.  Once the lute is tuned, it becomes visible.

 It really shouldn't effect the sound.  I've taken very good care of the
 instrument over the years.

 My big question now is...How does one feed the wood so it's not so dried
 out and stuff?  I am pretty sure Lemon Pledge is out of the question.  How
 does one hydrate the wood without problems?

 Thank you so much!

 Michael

Re: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Ed Durbrow]

How does one hydrate the wood without problems?

Keep one of those moisture tubes in the case. I forget what they are 
called, Moist-it or something. You could improvise just as well: a 
sponge in a container with air holes would do it.

cheers,
-- 
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Re: Mike Godfrey - Found someone local to fix my lute ALSO, HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION

[Ed Durbrow]

Hydrate with a humidifier.  A lot of Guitar shops carry little humidity
devises for putting in the guitar case I assume that would work with the
Lute as well.  I am also assuming that since I bought my humidifier there
have been many and more sophisticated devices available.

How does one compromise? My lutes are in my studio which is filled 
with recording equipment and computer paraphernalia. The one likes it 
humid the other likes it dry and in Japan we get the extremes. It's 
so humid right now in Japan you would think stuff would grow in the 
air.
-- 
Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Re: also....

[Thomas Schall]

No - not again! The story of this discovery has holes larger than loch
ness ... it's more a could have been, if ... than it would be based on
facts. 

Thomas

Am Die, 2004-03-23 um 00.57 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

 Venere1613/Schelle1726 in Leipzig Musikinstrumenten-Museum, #3356
 (85.5x108x121cm) is suspected to be Weiss' own axe.
 RT
 __
 Roman M. Turovsky
 http://turovsky.org
 http://polyhymnion.org
  A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
  It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
  RT
  What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
  Alain
  
  At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
  I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute from
  Deutsches Museum in München, on
  http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
  RT
  
 

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3   
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss

--

Re: also....

[Tim Kuntz]

Now I'm confused.  Didn't Stewart (and others) identify a theorbo as a lute
with re-entrant tunings?  So if one avoids re-entrant tunings, is it still a
theorbo?

Tim Kuntz

- Original Message - 
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: also


  I'm just curious:  why is it without the first string?  Is it just that
  the chanterelle can't sustain that playing length?
 Yes, and to avoid re-entrant tunings.
 RT

 
  A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
  It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
  RT
  What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
  Alain
 
  At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
  I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck
  lute from
  Deutsches Museum in M?, on
  http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
  RT
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: also....

[Roman Turovsky]

Weiss theorbo is an exception.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
 Now I'm confused.  Didn't Stewart (and others) identify a theorbo as a lute
 with re-entrant tunings?  So if one avoids re-entrant tunings, is it still a
 theorbo?
 
 Tim Kuntz
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 9:38 PM
 Subject: Re: also
 
 
 I'm just curious:  why is it without the first string?  Is it just that
 the chanterelle can't sustain that playing length?
 Yes, and to avoid re-entrant tunings.
 RT
 
 
 A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
 It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
 RT
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain
 
 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck
 lute from
 Deutsches Museum in M?, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: Re: also....

[corun]

Tim wrote:
 
 Now I'm confused.  Didn't Stewart (and others) identify a theorbo as a lute
 with re-entrant tunings?  So if one avoids re-entrant tunings, is it still a
 theorbo?

I've just started reading Nigel North's continuo book and in the first chapter he 
lists several tunings for theorbo, arch lute, English theorbo and arciliuto. There are 
apparently (according to Nigel's research) different ways a theorbo can be tuned 
including re-entrant.

Regards,
Craig
 

Re: also....

[Roman Turovsky]

Please note: I moved this thread to the Baroque-Lute List where this might
profit from slightly different demographics.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

also....

[Roman Turovsky]

I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute from
Deutsches Museum in München, on
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
RT

Re: also....

[Alain Veylit]

What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
Alain

At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute from
Deutsches Museum in München, on
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
RT

Re: also....

[Nancy Carlin]

I'm not sure if this question will be answered, but the LSA is about to=20
send the next Journal to the printers and I'm told it will be all about the=
=20
instruments Weiss used in his music.  It's the 2nd of what will be a series=
=20
of 4-5 Journals all about Weiss.
Nancy Carlin
Lute Society of America


What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
Alain

At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute=
 from
 Deutsches Museum in M=FCnchen, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com

Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

Re: also....

[Roman Turovsky]

A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
RT
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain
 
 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute from
 Deutsches Museum in München, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT
 

Re: also....

[Roman Turovsky]

Venere1613/Schelle1726 in Leipzig Musikinstrumenten-Museum, #3356
(85.5x108x121cm) is suspected to be Weiss' own axe.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
 A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
 It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
 RT
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain
 
 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck lute from
 Deutsches Museum in München, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT
 

Re: also....

[David Rastall]

I'm just curious:  why is it without the first string?  Is it just that 
the chanterelle can't sustain that playing length?

David Rastall


On Monday, March 22, 2004, at 06:39 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

 A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
 It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
 RT
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain

 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck 
 lute from
 Deutsches Museum in München, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT

Re: also....

[Roman Turovsky]

 I'm just curious:  why is it without the first string?  Is it just that
 the chanterelle can't sustain that playing length?
Yes, and to avoid re-entrant tunings.
RT

 
 A large (80cm+) triple-swan-neck baroque lute sans first string.
 It works VERY well for Bach cello suites.
 RT
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain
 
 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck
 lute from
 Deutsches Museum in M?, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: also....

[Daniel F Heiman]

Alain, et al.

Speaking of Weiß lutes, the National Music Museum has just posted very
nice studies of two of their most recently-purchased lutes: one a
13-course apparently made by Thomas Edlinger (who made some of Weiß'
instruments), and the other an earlier Italian instrument modified into a
13-course also by Edlinger.

Links at:

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/links/index.html#instruments

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:52:47 -0800 Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 What is a Weiss theorbo exactly?
 Alain
 
 At 01:41 PM 3/22/04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 I have put another interesting photo, that of a triple-swan-neck 
 lute from
 Deutsches Museum in München, on
 http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html
 RT
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: also....

[Jerzy ZAK]

Roman,
You are completly unreachable to me at both your known addresses. Will 
you please ask both the @verizon.net and @att.net if one can ever 
communicate with you from @poczta.wp.pl. I wouldn't like to bother this 
forum with such problems any more, so lets find answer on both sides...

To your link on TEORBA I've replyed with this --
http://www.avant-scene-theatre.com/htm/piece.asp?id_piece=924
http://www.christiansimeon.com/biographie/biographie.html

which is, BTW, not entirely OT.

Beside, congratulations on your ''...First time ever in public''' 
performance!
jurek

John Rollins Also Lute on Ebay

[dowland]

Hello Friends,

I have a John Rollins Alto lute on ebay priced to sell, there is also 
a separate listing for a Poulton book of easy pieces. 

Allan

www.fluteandguitar.com
www.guitarandlute.com