Re: [Lynx-dev] [Panix #37267] Information about the current document (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi there,
If the samples you are providing are what you mean, your name appears, 
at least  in your posts here.

How screen readers  present information can indeed differ.
Karen



On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, Jude DaShiell wrote:




--
Jude 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
Please use in that order."
Ed Howdershelt 1940.

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 10:39:15
From: Ken Dunlap via RT 
To: jdash...@panix.com
Subject: Re: [Panix #37267] Information about the current document

Yes, it is.  Look at the html.  It will look like
jdashiel

I have confirmed multiple times that the link exists in lynx, and
that the link text is your username.  I suggest you take a long hard
look at your screenreader if it is not giving you that text.

Ken

Quoth Jude DaShiell via RT (rt-support-comm...@panix.com):

jdashiel isn't in the text on any of those links, so maybe in some form of
encoding 13605=jdashiel but I don't know which form of encoding so I can't
check that out.  It could be lynx doesn't like aria, I'm on the lynx-dev
list so I could ask about that.


--
 Jude 
 "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
 Please use in that order."
 Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, Ken Dunlap via RT wrote:


Quoth Jude DaShiell via RT (rt-support-comm...@panix.com):

File that you are currently viewing

   Linkname:Panix Config
URL:https://config.panix.com/shell/13605/13605/edit
Charset:utf-8
 Server:Apache/2.4.58 (Unix) OpenSSL/1.1.1t
   Date:Tue, 09 Apr 2024 14:13:20 GMT
Expires:Mon, 01 Jan 1990 00:00:00 GMT
   Cache-Control:no-store
   Content-Length:11701 bytes
   Owner(s):None
   size:63 lines
   mode:forms mode, no-cache

Link that you currently have selected

   Linkname:https://config.panix.com/shell/13605/13605/edit
URL:https://config.panix.com/shell/13605/13605/edit



That is the link in question.  I'm not sure what lynx thinks a 'Linkname'
is, but the link TEXT is 'jdashiel' or your current disk allotment in MB, 
depending
on which link you landed on.  I changed that latter from plain text to a link
when I added the aria labels.

Ken





--
I use the words you taught me. If they don't mean anything any more,
teach me others. Or let me be silent.
   Samuel Beckett (Clov, Endgame)

Re: [Lynx-dev] solved, was editors and spell checking?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi All,
Solution as I understand it, simply involved being very correct in the 
editor field   of the operations menu.

as in
pico -s real location of aspell.
Works perfectly now I am told.
thanks for all the creativity here,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] editors and spell checking?

[Karen Lewellen]

My pico is edition 5.0 plus.
Pico is more flexible, speaking personally.
nano, again speaking personally makes odd choices, like going to the end 
of a a document.
The recent nano on the Ubuntu setup for dreamhost no longer even uses the 
control t for spell checking.

Personal preferences are the soul of personal computing laughs.



On Wed, 3 Apr 2024, tsie...@softcon.com wrote:

Pico and nano are basically the same editor, just a later version, (you know, 
pico is version 1.0, nano is version 2.0).


The way to run aspell or spell is exactly the same regardless of the name of 
the editor in this case.


ctrl-t asks you what program to run, type spell or aspell, depending on what 
you have installed, and you're all done.


That's all there is to it.

And, just for reference, Nano uses the same exact keystrokes as pico, I know, 
because I used pico for years before it got switched to nano, and I've not 
changed a single thing in how I use the program, and it still does everything 
exactly the same as it did before.


No difference.


On 4/2/2024 11:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 apparently?
 There is more to this  solution, at least where the speller is concerned.
 the editor in lynx in use is pico..cannot fault them there, I prefer it to
 nano as well.
 Alpine in their setup is using aspell for spell checking, so they want to
 add this on the  editor line.
 Pico runs fine by itself when added to the editor line in  the lynx
 options menu.  but it does not seem to provide   things like
 alternative words, or look up or anything as if a speller was in
 use...meaning something  else is required.
 Apparently adding the line as it appears in the alpine setup screen is not
 working either.
 Does pico need a configuration file to run with a spell checker?
 thanks,
 Karen


 On Tue, 2 Apr 2024, Tim Chase wrote:

>  Replying inline
> 
>  On 2024-04-02 15:33, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >  I am helping someone resolve an issue, they have access to lynx, but 
> >  the

> >  editor field is blank.
> >  They are using Ubuntu.
> 
>  If they're already comfortable with a preferred editor, you can

>  tell Lynx to use that on the command-line with the "-editor" option:
> 
>   $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/nano http://example.com
> 
>  They might even have configured their system to use "sensible-editor"

>  in which case
> 
>   $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/sensible-editor http://example.com
> 
>  should invoke their preferred editor.
> 
>  Alternatively, you can use "o" to go to the lynx options, check the

>  "Save options to disk" checkbox, set the Editor value in there, and
>  save the options.
> 
>  Strangely, lynx doesn't honor the common method of setting either

>  the $EDITOR or $VISUAL environment variable.
> 
> >  In alpine for example there is a field for editor, and one for spell

> >  checking, I admit to thinking they worked together as in are software
> >  dependent.
> 
>  They can be the same thing or they can be different tools.  Some

>  editors have spell-check support, some don't; so you might want an
>  external spell-checker.
> 
> >  Does lynx work the same?  meaning does there need to be one field

> >  for the editor and one for spell checker?
> 
>  I don't think lynx has anything spell-checking-related, just

>  editor-related.  However, if they use an editor with built-in
>  spell-checking, that would do the trick.
> 
> >  or is it enough to make sure the chosen editor is configured

> >  to use the desired spell checker.  meaning adding the editor will
> >  allow for spell checking as well?
> 
>  I believe this is the case.  I know that vim and emacs both have

>  support for spell-checking.  And nano does too if you enable it and
>  add a spell-checking package:
> 
>   $ sudo apt-get install spell
> 
>  With the spell-checker installed, you should be able to use control+t

>  in nano to spell-check the file.
> 
>  Hopefully that helps,
> 
>  -tim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Lynx-dev] editors and spell checking?

[Karen Lewellen]

apparently?
There is more to this  solution, at least where the speller is concerned.
the editor in lynx in use is pico..cannot fault them there, I prefer it to 
nano as well.
Alpine in their setup is using aspell for spell checking, so they want to 
add this on the  editor line.
Pico runs fine by itself when added to the editor line in  the lynx 
options menu.  but it does not seem to provide   things like alternative 
words, or look up or anything as if a speller was in use...meaning 
something  else is required.
Apparently adding the line as it appears in the alpine setup  screen is not 
working either.

Does pico need a configuration file to run with a spell checker?
thanks,
Karen


On Tue, 2 Apr 2024, Tim Chase wrote:


Replying inline

On 2024-04-02 15:33, Karen Lewellen wrote:

I am helping someone resolve an issue, they have access to lynx, but the
editor field is blank.
They are using Ubuntu.


If they're already comfortable with a preferred editor, you can
tell Lynx to use that on the command-line with the "-editor" option:

 $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/nano http://example.com

They might even have configured their system to use "sensible-editor"
in which case

 $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/sensible-editor http://example.com

should invoke their preferred editor.

Alternatively, you can use "o" to go to the lynx options, check the
"Save options to disk" checkbox, set the Editor value in there, and
save the options.

Strangely, lynx doesn't honor the common method of setting either
the $EDITOR or $VISUAL environment variable.


In alpine for example there is a field for editor, and one for spell
checking, I admit to thinking they worked together as in are software
dependent.


They can be the same thing or they can be different tools.  Some
editors have spell-check support, some don't; so you might want an
external spell-checker.


Does lynx work the same?  meaning does there need to be one field
for the editor and one for spell checker?


I don't think lynx has anything spell-checking-related, just
editor-related.  However, if they use an editor with built-in
spell-checking, that would do the trick.


or is it enough to make sure the chosen editor is configured
to use the desired spell checker.  meaning adding the editor will
allow for spell checking as well?


I believe this is the case.  I know that vim and emacs both have
support for spell-checking.  And nano does too if you enable it and
add a spell-checking package:

 $ sudo apt-get install spell

With the spell-checker installed, you should be able to use control+t
in nano to spell-check the file.

Hopefully that helps,

-tim

Re: [Lynx-dev] editors and spell checking?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
yes that helps allot.
As I prefer pico to nano for example  in  the lynx config for  my user 
setup here that line has  pico -s name of speller, ispell I believe.
So, if they pre nano  or simple speller or whatever, they can do the same, 
either specifying the command line for the speller, assuming it works 
like pico, or  making sure the editor has a speller package.
Their configuration for alpine includes  the default for aspell on the speller 
line, but no editor.
I have not checked alpine at shellworld, I  prefer using pine personally 
here.

Thanks,
Karen



On Tue, 2 Apr 2024, Tim Chase wrote:


Replying inline

On 2024-04-02 15:33, Karen Lewellen wrote:

I am helping someone resolve an issue, they have access to lynx, but the
editor field is blank.
They are using Ubuntu.


If they're already comfortable with a preferred editor, you can
tell Lynx to use that on the command-line with the "-editor" option:

 $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/nano http://example.com

They might even have configured their system to use "sensible-editor"
in which case

 $ lynx -editor=/usr/bin/sensible-editor http://example.com

should invoke their preferred editor.

Alternatively, you can use "o" to go to the lynx options, check the
"Save options to disk" checkbox, set the Editor value in there, and
save the options.

Strangely, lynx doesn't honor the common method of setting either
the $EDITOR or $VISUAL environment variable.


In alpine for example there is a field for editor, and one for spell
checking, I admit to thinking they worked together as in are software
dependent.


They can be the same thing or they can be different tools.  Some
editors have spell-check support, some don't; so you might want an
external spell-checker.


Does lynx work the same?  meaning does there need to be one field
for the editor and one for spell checker?


I don't think lynx has anything spell-checking-related, just
editor-related.  However, if they use an editor with built-in
spell-checking, that would do the trick.


or is it enough to make sure the chosen editor is configured
to use the desired spell checker.  meaning adding the editor will
allow for spell checking as well?


I believe this is the case.  I know that vim and emacs both have
support for spell-checking.  And nano does too if you enable it and
add a spell-checking package:

 $ sudo apt-get install spell

With the spell-checker installed, you should be able to use control+t
in nano to spell-check the file.

Hopefully that helps,

-tim

[Lynx-dev] editors and spell checking?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi everyone,
I am helping someone resolve an issue, they have access to lynx, but the 
editor field is blank.

They are using Ubuntu.
While I can certainly tell them how editors are set for our shellworld 
configuration, I want to be sure of something first.
In alpine for example there is a field for editor, and one for spell 
checking, I admit to thinking they worked together as in are software 
dependent.

Does lynx work the same?
meaning does there need to be one field for the editor and one for spell 
checker?
or is it enough to  make sure the chosen  editor is configured to use the 
desired spell checker.  meaning adding the editor will allow for spell 
checking as well?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] can this be done?

[Karen Lewellen via Lynx-dev]

David,
at the end of the day only a site Creator knows what has been done.
Further, speaking personally, not all of my experiences are form related 
with that button.
for many users, all that matters,is an open door to content and 
information.

Kare



On Sun, 10 Dec 2023, David Woolley wrote:


On 10/12/2023 11:45, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Actually, it depends.
 there are some script buttons that if I type this, note the upper case,
: SUBMIT
 The button can be submited, as if I had clicked on the button instead.


That's a special case.  In that case the button probably is part of a form 
and runs javacript which eventually submits the form. If it works fully, the 
javascript is probably only validating the form, although there is still a 
risk that they fail to validate at the server and you end up with GIGO.


HTML5 buttons don't have to be part of a form, and the form that actually 
gets submitted may contain hidden fields derived from, or replacing the user 
entered field.  The form might not even be sent to the server, but processed 
locally, which is sometimes a good thing, as there are sites that process 
sensitive data, like DNA callouts, purely within the browser, which is 
something that Lynx cannot do.

Re: [Lynx-dev] can this be done?

[Karen Lewellen]

Actually, it depends.
there are some script buttons that if I type this, note the upper case,
:SUBMIT
The button can be submited, as if I had clicked on the button instead.
Kare



On Sat, 9 Dec 2023, David Woolley wrote:


On 09/12/2023 08:30, Jude DaShiell wrote:

 When buttons appear on web pages, could lynx turn those buttons into
 executable links?


In general no, not even for type=submit ones, as the likely target is the 
execution of javascript, which would mean fully executing that script.

[Lynx-dev] date of latest lynx dev package?

[Karen Lewellen]

Have seen reference to .12, but not the date.
Thanks,

[Lynx-dev] OT: Seeking someone who..? (

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
 owning this is off topic, given the far more knowledgeable and I would 
imagine likely more emotionally grounded  Linux folks here, I am sending 
out   a request I have circulated elsewhere as well.

Elsewhere includes the Blinux, Debian, and alpine lists.
Please if you can support here, get in touch.
Thanks,
Kare


Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:43:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Karen Lewellen 
To: debian-u...@lists.debian.org
Subject: Seeking someone who..? (
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2023 21:43:37 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-u...@lists.debian.org

Sharing what I posted to alpine  as well as here..My resource isdoing all 
they can, but I truly am not equips to help them..please someone who knows what 
they are doing first hand get in touch?




Currently uses alpine to access their gmail account.
A bit of context
I experience sight loss, with basic html my only direct access to my gmail 
account..which has been removed as of last Monday.
I use my gmail account personally and professionally, its lost is quite quite 
quite a situation for me.
There is an associate in Toronto who is aiming to provide an email setup, 
configuring alpine to access gmail, but he has never configured alpine before.
As I experience sight loss, and have only accessed my gmail account via the web 
interface, I  need to
1, be sure what I am told should happen here incorporating imap is what I 
expect,
and 2, insure my associate has correct information, all of my alpine access is 
via dreamhost, and they do not configure alpine well.
My associate is using Alpine 2.5, which I recall has a tool that allows one to 
authenticate to gmail,  but I am seeking someone with direct experience so this 
gets done  to the best of Alpine's ability.

If you are personally doing this, Can you please write me off list?
I absolutely positively do not have the emotional capacity to gamble here, 
hoping to connect Ron with someone who knows what they are doing.

klewel...@shellworld.net
thanks,
Kare


___
Alpine-info mailing list
alpine-i...@u.washington.edu
http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info

Re: [Lynx-dev] In fact..on cookies.

[Karen Lewellen]

Yes..that has been established.
The cookie order is my real  question however.



On Sat, 25 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


When google bounces a message, that's something for shellworld admin staff
to look at and address for you perhaps in addition to google staff.  Your
shellworld.net account may need adjusting so the bounces end.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


I am personally beginning to fear that Luke himself*tampered*
with my lynx cookies file given the ones I cannot find.
How I reached gmail here was quite specific, over the years google considered
my shellworld address, reconfirming after that changed, to be my home computer
where lynx was concerned.
Unfortunately shellworld email is sometimes being blocked by google too, some
required authentication process, with many professional ones bouncing for me.
I realize folks just change tools, for many reasons though physical and
otherwise, this is not often something I can do.
I will add that I have scores of professional files, communications, even
legal items tied to my karen.lewel...@gmail.com account.
even google accessibility states I should still have access to basic, warning
not withstanding.
Maybe I am just being paranoid, many many things are happening for me, quite
the emotional ride if I am honest.
account tampering though?
thanks,
Kare

[Lynx-dev] In fact..on cookies.

[Karen Lewellen]

I am personally beginning to fear that Luke himself*tampered*
with my lynx cookies file given the ones I cannot find.
How I reached gmail here was quite specific, over the years google 
considered my shellworld address, reconfirming after that changed, to be 
my home computer where lynx was concerned.
Unfortunately shellworld email is sometimes being blocked by google too, 
some required authentication process, with many professional ones bouncing 
for me.
I realize folks just change tools, for many reasons though physical and 
otherwise, this is not often something I can do.
I will add that I have scores of professional files, communications, even 
legal items tied to my karen.lewel...@gmail.com account.
even google accessibility states I should still have access to basic, 
warning  not withstanding.
Maybe I am just being paranoid, many many things are happening for me, 
quite the emotional ride if I am honest.

account tampering though?
thanks,
Kare

[Lynx-dev] a cookie question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
Curious about the lynx_cookies file.
I have always wondered the difference between a false/false cookie, and a 
false/true one.
Was checking on mine, some of my google cookies are gone, but that may be 
due to the changes.

There are allot of them, in general, some false and some true.
when Lynx adds a cookie is the most recent one put at the top, or the 
bottom?
and are the false / false or false / true ones  important in terms of 
which is more successful?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Then I am back to my source question, although perhaps without the web 
interface, a solid email provider where I can export my gmail contents, 
then  use that address as its replacement.  Afterwards establishing mail 
forwarding for my gmail account.
Must be able to reach them, which may mean doing what I already do for 
work, only hopefully to a setup more supportive of their email clients 
like alpine.


I respect the other ideas are more work then I desire taking on, would 
rather  reward a solid source with my business.
That is not going to be pannix, they refused to let me test ssh from my 
desktop.
Since email is all I desire, and news from fastmail is they are 
considering doing better but they do not support  the Linux elements i 
use, other ideas?

Thanks,
Kare



On Wed, 22 Nov 2023, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Karen Lewellen dixit:


my current access to both pine and alpine are tied to shellworld entirely, or
via the dreamhost shell service provided to my office.


OK. If you can use these for eMail, you’ll be good then.


The question seems to be if it can be configured to access gmail,
including passing any security related factors?


Googlemail is exceptionally bad at playing well. I have to
use a Googlemail account for work and while I eventually
managed to sending with it with alpine (it needs alpine as
alpine has special code to work with Googlemail), I have
set it up to forward to an IMAP server I run myself, as its
IMAP implementation is so bad it’s not even funny any more.

(In theory you should be able to access Googlemail via IMAP;
in practice, you’ll hate the bugs.)

I can only really really urge you to seek a proper eMail
provider that supports standard SMTP and IMAP.


if alpine can do this,  can not some of the associated
tools be incorporated into pine?


Unfortunately, pine is not only “end of life” but also has a
problematic licence, which is the thing that directly led to
alpine (short for “apache-licenced pine”) being a rewrite.

So either you’ve got to use alpine with Googlemail and suffer
from its shortcomings, or you can use either pine or alpine
with good as any standard eMail provider that supports SMTP
and IMAP.

(A very small number of years ago, this would have ended my
message; however, nowadays, there is another problem. If you
use an old version of pine (especially for DOS) it will have
been built with an old SSL library that cannot do TLSv1.2 or
TLSv1.3, and more and more endpoints unfortunately require
that. Running pine/alpine on an up-to-date BSD or GNU/Linux
shellserver would work, or having a kind of “SSL proxy” on a
machine that supports both the old and new protocols (which
is something I set up for myself with a pair of stunnel4
services), or having an SMTP and IMAP server on a box that
supports the old TLSv1.0 protocol and ciphersuites, which
often can be configured even on systems like Debian 11 that
do not accept these out of the box any more.)

bye,
//mirabilos
--

emacs als auch vi zum Kotzen finde (joe rules) und pine für den einzig
bedienbaren textmode-mailclient halte (und ich hab sie alle ausprobiert). ;)

Hallo, ich bin der Holger ("Hallo Holger!"), und ich bin ebenfalls
... pine-User, und das auch noch gewohnheitsmäßig ("Oooohhh").  [aus dasr]

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
my current access to both pine and alpine are tied to shellworld entirely, 
or   via the dreamhost shell service provided to my office.

There is indeed a pine for DOS.
The question seems to be if it can be configured to access gmail, 
including passing any security related factors?
My absolute goal is full access to my gmail inbox, if I must use another 
provider, I must be able to input those contents for personal, legal, and 
professional reasons.   if alpine can do this,  can not some of the 
associated tools be incorporated into pine?

Where would I find the answers to this
Kare


On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Karen Lewellen dixit:


There is a thread over at DOS ain't dead about providers who  still have web
interfaces, using roundcube or squirrel mail, someone even spoke of fastmail.
Anyone know of  either an email service that incorporates these lower graphics


Is using pine a possibility? (I think there was a DOS port of that.)
That sounds much less overhead and much more reliability than a web
interface, and in addition, your interface to the mail system will
continue to just be the same pine you’re using (or with minimal changes
over years in the case of alpine).

If you have access to a pine/alpine at your shellserver and find it
usable for yourself, you can set it up to access multiple eMail
providers (as long as they support IMAP) as well.

lynx-usable webmail is so niche that I wouldn’t invest too much
effort into finding anything there (plus even things that are lynx-
accessible now need not continue to do so, I suffered from a bank
stopping that for online banking).

Good luck,
//mirabilos
--

Wish I had pine to hand :-( I'll give lynx a try, thanks.


Michael Schmitz on nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.ports.68k
a.k.a. {news.gmane.org/nntp}#news.gmane.linux.debian.ports.68k in pine

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

..and you just shared that roundcube and squirrel mail do not work there.
When I sought to work with them as well, they were quite quite hostile to 
my needs..plus for me that would be far more expensive then here, my site 
is at shellworld as well.

Kare



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Panix offers web accounts and telnet accounts.  I got a telnet account for
$100 a year.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Chime,
Are you using the web interface with fastmail as well?
If not, does fastmail give you access to all your email content?
Where do you use alpine, do they provide a door or is it on your personal 
system?

Kare



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

Well Jude-and-All, with Fastmail, I can go through a process in Alpine with 
an "s" for save, controll+t, I arrow down through folders until "spam 
training" after that I go down again to "spam learn" Certainly spam asassin 
was alot less complicated. Not only that, but there were white-and-black list 
files you could edit by hand.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Actually, that is untrue.
Shellworld owners are intent on deciding what  email we can and cannot 
see,  including items an individual may consider spam but they do not, and 
clearly the other way around as well.

There is a difference.
its not that we get lots of spam. Instead we end up not getting email  the 
individual knows should get through, with  a third party making the 
decision.

As an example, my bank cannot reach me at all now.



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Maybe others can help here, users can install their own copy of
spamassassin though that needs some work to do it correctly.  Another
possibility may be procmail and that needs some study to set recipes up
correctly.
It seems to me shellworld.net is intent on keeping its users open to spam.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Have you a trash folder or junkmail folder?


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Agree about spam assassin.
However the owners of shellworld disliked the program, so instead of
individual  choice for users, they took the choice away from everyone.
did try to use my password at gmail, likely the code got filtered as spam..for
which I have no folder.



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


panix.com has both roundcube and squirrelmail but we found both of those
interfaces are inaccessible for command line users of linux so although I
could set them up I couldn't access them effectively.  That's why I am
using spamassassin.

--
Jude 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
Please use in that order."
Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Hi folks,
As some may know google is force feeding the removal of access for basic
html.
For me personally this presents several issues, shellworld is amazing in
general, but the owners have removed the right to review spam here all
together.
There is a thread over at DOS ain't dead about providers who  still have
web
interfaces, using roundcube or squirrel mail, someone even spoke of
fastmail.
Anyone know of  either an email service that incorporates these lower
graphics
interfaces, or host mail  in a way that allows  full detailed inbox access
in
a reliable way.
Even Links with its JavaScript touches, and elinks when compiled for
JavaScript might be an option, but asking about Lynx in case I have missed
a
door.
Am a bit shaky here, lots of please fit into our disability box, or there
is
no place for our freakishness stuff in my life lately.
I do not want to chance a gmail login, until i know where I am
going..shellworld is my alternative address for gmail, and with no spam
folder
I might miss the two factor  code option.
Lynx ideas for email?
Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

no.
pine and alpine create a folder called probably-spam.
However, the mail process must actually use them.
This was the case..for decades actually, until that decision was taken 
away.
While we have been *promised* a replacement, that replacement has yet to 
be provided.




On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Have you a trash folder or junkmail folder?


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Agree about spam assassin.
However the owners of shellworld disliked the program, so instead of
individual  choice for users, they took the choice away from everyone.
did try to use my password at gmail, likely the code got filtered as spam..for
which I have no folder.



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


panix.com has both roundcube and squirrelmail but we found both of those
interfaces are inaccessible for command line users of linux so although I
could set them up I couldn't access them effectively.  That's why I am
using spamassassin.

--
Jude 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
Please use in that order."
Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Hi folks,
As some may know google is force feeding the removal of access for basic
html.
For me personally this presents several issues, shellworld is amazing in
general, but the owners have removed the right to review spam here all
together.
There is a thread over at DOS ain't dead about providers who  still have
web
interfaces, using roundcube or squirrel mail, someone even spoke of
fastmail.
Anyone know of  either an email service that incorporates these lower
graphics
interfaces, or host mail  in a way that allows  full detailed inbox access
in
a reliable way.
Even Links with its JavaScript touches, and elinks when compiled for
JavaScript might be an option, but asking about Lynx in case I have missed
a
door.
Am a bit shaky here, lots of please fit into our disability box, or there
is
no place for our freakishness stuff in my life lately.
I do not want to chance a gmail login, until i know where I am
going..shellworld is my alternative address for gmail, and with no spam
folder
I might miss the two factor  code option.
Lynx ideas for email?
Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Agree about spam assassin.
However the owners of shellworld disliked the program, so instead of 
individual  choice for users, they took the choice away from everyone.
did try to use my password at gmail, likely the code got filtered as 
spam..for which I have no folder.




On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


panix.com has both roundcube and squirrelmail but we found both of those
interfaces are inaccessible for command line users of linux so although I
could set them up I couldn't access them effectively.  That's why I am
using spamassassin.

--
Jude 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.
Please use in that order."
Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Hi folks,
As some may know google is force feeding the removal of access for basic html.
For me personally this presents several issues, shellworld is amazing in
general, but the owners have removed the right to review spam here all
together.
There is a thread over at DOS ain't dead about providers who  still have web
interfaces, using roundcube or squirrel mail, someone even spoke of fastmail.
Anyone know of  either an email service that incorporates these lower graphics
interfaces, or host mail  in a way that allows  full detailed inbox access in
a reliable way.
Even Links with its JavaScript touches, and elinks when compiled for
JavaScript might be an option, but asking about Lynx in case I have missed a
door.
Am a bit shaky here, lots of please fit into our disability box, or there is
no place for our freakishness stuff in my life lately.
I do not want to chance a gmail login, until i know where I am
going..shellworld is my alternative address for gmail, and with no spam folder
I might miss the two factor  code option.
Lynx ideas for email?
Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

..actually you might be surprised how large the market would be.
The digital divide, gap between end users, costs, and technology is quite 
great.
add the extent to which privacy and security plays a role, people wanting 
to just communicate, with the tools they have in the fashion they choose?
What has struck me searching for stories about google's decision is just 
how many frustrated people are out there.
There is a speculation thread on another list, how much such a project 
would cost..still waiting for numbers.

Kare



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Mouse wrote:


[...]
Lynx ideas for email?


This sounds like a business opportunity for...well, I'm not sure whom,
but someone!  It'd be a niche market, yes, but companies have been
successful serving niche markets often enough.  (I'd start it myself,
but I am not a businessmouse, and I know it.)

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Chime,
The organization  for whom I work has an open support ticket with fastmail 
to  discover what they can or cannot provide.

Thanks,
Karen



On Tue, 21 Nov 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, Karen, I have had fastmail for some years, since that 4 day Shellworld 
outage in May. Once fastmail is setup, it works well, but several functions 
in their interface, you must use a graphical browser. I also have my web-site 
hosted by them-and-they took away regular ncftp access, now I must use 
cadaver.

Chime

[Lynx-dev] lynx and webmail interfaces?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
As some may know google is force feeding the removal of access for basic 
html.
For me personally this presents several issues, shellworld is amazing in 
general, but the owners have removed the right to review spam here all 
together.
There is a thread over at DOS ain't dead about providers who  still have 
web interfaces, using roundcube or squirrel mail, someone even spoke of 
fastmail.
Anyone know of  either an email service that incorporates these lower 
graphics interfaces, or host mail  in a way that allows  full detailed 
inbox access in a reliable way.
Even Links with its JavaScript touches, and elinks when compiled for 
JavaScript might be an option, but asking about Lynx in case I have missed 
a door.
Am a bit shaky here, lots of please fit into our disability box, or there 
is no place for our freakishness stuff in my life lately.
I do not want to chance a gmail login, until i know where I am 
going..shellworld is my alternative address for gmail, and with no spam 
folder I might miss the two factor  code option.

Lynx ideas for email?
Thanks,
Karen

[Lynx-dev] using Lynx to add FTP content?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
have never done this, normally using an off list ftp client.
However, cannot reach  my destination  from my off list tool, and not 
sure? if shellworld has its own as apart of the Ubuntu shell.

So, can I use lynx to sftp a couple of files  to a location?
Upload, not download?
thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] Amazon.de and lynx

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
sorry rather behind here.
it sort of depends.
Was there ever an accessibility edition of the site in your region?
It would help if you reported the problem to  your local support, in theory 
it  can still work...but again it depends on where you are located.




On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, Riku Virtanen wrote:


Hi,

Does someone know if a blind Lynx user can still use Amazon?
I was able to browse products, not buy but saw details and prices.
Now, amazon.com works but amazon.de not.

Regards,
Riku

Re: [Lynx-dev] Ot: how email size is established?

[Karen Lewellen]

Oh its quite likely our administrator made changes, even without realizing 
the harm caused.
The other end is not getting the communications at all, instead I am told 
that my email cannot leave here, even if it could leave here previously.
Its quite emotionally disconcerting for me, because at the moment  almost 
all of my communications professionally and personally must be done via 
email.

Kare



On Tue, 9 May 2023, Claudio Calvelli wrote:


Karen Lewellen  wrote:

 Further  I have sent this same file, several times in fact, without
 triggering this error.


Was that to the same destination system? Because each system has its own
different size limit, so a message which sends just fine to most people
may then fail to arrive to a new recipient because of the limits of their
own server.

It's also possible that some administrator has recently lowered the limit,
although this seems unlikely.

Another possibility is that the system at the other end does not accept the
same encoding as was used to send, and the re-encoding caused it to grow
in size, again this could happen if sending the exact same message to a new
recipient, or if they have made changes to their server recently.

When shellworld reports the error, does it say it is its own size limit,
or it says something like "while talking to (some other server)", which
would indicate at least who is rejecting the message because of its size.

C

Re: [Lynx-dev] Ot: how email size is established?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
I did include ot in the subject line.
Further  I have sent this same file, several times in fact, without 
triggering this error.
Yes you are correct the communication exceeds etc...even when the email 
itself has no text at all.
If I am using the same mail client, pine, that I used when sending say 8 
copies of the file, what would lead to a change?



On Mon, 8 May 2023, Mouse wrote:


This isn't really directly related to lynx, but many of the encoding
mechanisms can be (though in my experience usually aren't) used for Web
content.


I am sending a file that is slightly larger than 7 meg.
However I am getting a users.shellworld.net error claiming that the
file exceeds the slightly above 10 meg size restriction.


If it said the _file_ size exceeded a 10M limit, it was badly worded.
More correctly, it would say the _message_ size exceeded a 10M limit,
or perhaps the _encoded_ file size did.

The 7M is probably the size on disk; the latter is probably the size of
the email, including the _encoded_ file.  All ways of sending
non-plain-text files by email involve some kind of encoding.  The
commonest is probably what is called `base64', which enlarges the file
by a factor of approximately four to three (ie, every three bytes of
file are four bytes of email - "approximately" because there is slight
additional overhead, roughly three percent, for line breaks).

7 megs times 4/2 turns into 4*(7/3) or some 9.333 megs.  As for where
the rest comes from, the most likely thing that occurs to me is that
(a) your 7 megs is binary megs, 1048576 (2^20) bytes each, but the 10
megs is decimal megs, 100 bytes each.  7 binary megs, times 4/3,
plus the end-of-line overhead, is about half a percent over 10 decimal
megs: 7*1048576 is 7340032 bytes; times 4/3 gives 9786709.333... bytes,
times 74/72 (the approximate end-of-line overhead: one CRLF inserted
every 72 octets) is 10058562.37+ octets.

The size of a megabyte is a contentious issue.  As the Jargon File
notes, when counting things (like bytes on disk) that naturally occur
in units of powers of two, prefixes like "kilo" and "mega" naturally
attract power-of-two meanings (1024, 1048576, etc).  But in datacomm,
they traditionally use power-of-ten meanings (1000, 100, etc).
Compounding the confusion, back in the...late '80s, I think it was?,
disk makers decided they were going to use the decimal meanings when
labeling their disks, because it lets them label disks with artifically
inflated numbers without quite lying enough to get slapped with
misleading-advertising charges.  (Personally, I think they still
should; advertising, and in some cases devices, often says, in tiny
print, things like "based on 1GB = 1 billion bytes", which seems to me
like a clear admission that they _know_ they're being misleading.)
There even were, I'm told (I was just getting into geekdom at the
time; I wasn't buying disks), cases where the exact same device with
the exact same capacity was still sold - relabeled with the bigger
number.

Then, further compounding the confusion, someone came up with the
idiotic idea of sticking a marker into the SI prefixes to indicate
binary meanings, leading to things like KiB, MiB, etc.  I have no idea
where this came from, unless it was initiated by disk-industry shills,
since as far as I can tell nobody else seriously used decimal units to
label storage.  (Not even other parts of the storage industry do that;
you even now see things like a "4G" stick of memory, not a "4.29G"
stick of memory.)

One infamous fail here is the "1.44M" floppy, which is nothing of the
sort by either definition.  It is 1474560 bytes, or 1.44 * 1024 * 1000;
the "M" is formed by multiplying one decimal K by one binary K, leading
to a unit nobody uses for anything else as far as I can tell.  Perhaps
fortunately, those floppies are pretty much dead anyway by now.


Odd thing is that I have sent the same file previously, with no error
at all.


Either it wasn't quite the same file (a smaller version of the same
thing, maybe) or the limit has been lowered in the meantime.


what I am seeking as a short term solution is a way to understand how
programs decide email size...


Well, for the full details, read the MIME RFCs.  But, most briefly, the
message is assembled from various parts, such as the text you give it
and any attachments.  Each part is, potentially, encoded, though
normally only attachments will be encoded in ways that enlarge them
significantly.  There is also some overhead, delimiting the parts and
declaring their types and encodings and such, but that is small enough
that, unless you have a lot of tiny attachments or the like, you can
usually ignore it.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

[Lynx-dev] Ot: how email size is established?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
mostly asking here  because of all the bright minds working in various 
formats.
Tiny background, because of  the many things I do professionally, I often 
need to send files, to others, to my office  email, to robobraille.org so 
they can be converted to other formats, to staff for editing and the like.

For well frankly decades this has not been an issue..until now.
I am sending a file that is slightly larger than 7 meg.
However I am getting a users.shellworld.net error claiming that  the file 
exceeds the slightly above 10 meg size restriction.
Odd thing is that I have sent the same file previously, with no error at 
all.
what I am seeking as a short term solution is a way to understand how 
programs decide email size...even if the email itself  is entirely blank, 
I am getting the error.

No idea where 3 meg or so is coming from  and cannot plan accordingly.
Also cannot reach our administrator, so again seeking to discover a 
solution.

ideas?
thanks,
Karen

[Lynx-dev] lynx and groups.io?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
Previously I had no issues using lynx with groups.io, especially given they 
claim to be mobile friendly.

However recently when I try logging in, I get a
"you must enter a password" error, even though I am typing a password in 
the field.
Is there a setting that can influence how sites realize you are typing in 
a low graphics environment?
my thought is the expectation  of a tap which would be new, but asking the 
experts.

thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] urls longer than 1024 characters

[Karen Lewellen]

Since my situation started the question, how might I send a sample for 
testing?

can the list take attachments?
Kare



On Wed, 25 Jan 2023, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Would it be possible for lynx to count the characters in an url and if the
url is longer than 1024 characters offer to send the long url to an url
shortening service and then catch the shortened url the service sent back
and then open that shortened url instead?
If lynx gets one of these shortened urls, will the url expansion on the
other end cause lynx to error out or will the shortened url actually
bypass the 1024 character limit on urls?
I don't know that the internet has an actual limit on url length either.



Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

Links the chain had the same problem, badly formed address.
Making it not just a lynx the cat issue.
Only way I could share it is as an attachment, its something like three 
pages of characters.



On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Oh, just the standard https://
comes before.


Then I, at least, find that very strange. I have never run into that error
for other than a javascript: URL, a data URL as someone else mentioned,
or some other kind of function-based URL that lynx can't handle, but that
you can sometimes edit into a more usable shape.

I have not run into it rejecting an https URL with that error.

It would still be nice to see the entire URL, including the data after the
question mark, but I realize you probably can't copy and paste, and it's
not worth the trouble of typing across at this point.

Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

Oh, just the standard https://
comes before.



On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


what comes after the colon is


However, I requested what comes before the colon.

Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

On second thought I dug up an old post in the thread to check.
what comes after the colon is
 ecromclick.verizonwireless.com/omclick.document/?  and a lot of odd 
characters.
Google as I said states badly formed address.  Not to be confused with bad 
HTML no form has been defined.

as for finding another email address,
I recall asking before.
My professional needs for research and high level document work  means a 
an address with a web interface that works in lynx.  The interface 
automatically tries to convert files to .html, which google does,
lets me  save files otherwise, and displays in .html, something apparently 
alpine now has issues with, there is a current thread about it on the 
alpine  discussion list.


Personally, with my fully owning dreamhost may not be the best example, 
Imap and Alpine  absolutely terrify me, it freezes, shuts down when I am 
writing an email, does not display attachments, etc.
I may feel differently about imap once I get to test it, via shellworld, 
using pine, for the lost gmail account I currently have on forward.
However, my preference is outlined above, and if there is an idea I will 
investigate the door.

Karen


On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Karen Lewellen wrote:


It is unlikely I can test this now.
The terms of service were time sensitive, so we found a different way to 
address the issue.

Can you  expand on  what you felt I might find?
Intend raising the problem with Verizon's  accessibility team.
Kare



On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


>  In fact, the  error, badly formed address,
>  Is  one I have not encountered before.

 I have. It can mean a few things if I recall correctly. If, instead of
 enter, you press "E" on that link (that is, a capital E), then the home
 key or Ctrl+A, it will put you at the start of whatever link it is trying
 to take you to, in an edit field. What do you see as the part of the link
 before the colon?

 Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

Oh I did that.
One test came to my office, which uses links  built for JavaScript.
it is not a gmail address.
Still failed.



On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Karen Lewellen dixit:


Intend raising the problem with Verizon's  accessibility team.


It’s only half likely they’re even at fault/able to fix this.

In your situation I can only *strongly* urge you to find an
eMail solution different to Googlemail (considering, also,
what others hinted at, regarding nōn-JavaScript usability
in near future).

Good luck,
//mirabilos
PS: Personally, I find pine very usable, for a text program.
   Getting either it or alpine set up at Shellworld is very
   likely trivial, and then you can use normal SMTP and IMAP
   for eMail. I’m not sure how usable it is with Braille lines
   (might need more than 60 columns) or text-to-speech though.
   Memorising the keystrokes needed to use it is quick.
--
 “Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having
 a peeing section in a swimming pool.”
-- Edward Burr

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

It is unlikely I can test this now.
The terms of service were time sensitive, so we found a different way to 
address the issue.

Can you  expand on  what you felt I might find?
Intend raising the problem with Verizon's  accessibility team.
Kare



On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


In fact, the  error, badly formed address,
Is  one I have not encountered before.


I have. It can mean a few things if I recall correctly. If, instead of
enter, you press "E" on that link (that is, a capital E), then the home
key or Ctrl+A, it will put you at the start of whatever link it is trying
to take you to, in an edit field. What do you see as the part of the link
before the colon?

Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi chime,
Actually, that is not the error here.
In fact, the  error, badly formed address,
Is  one I have not encountered before.
Kare



On Sat, 14 Jan 2023, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi Mouse: Another aspect of Karen's comments was about that cryptic "no form 
action defined" or something about bad html.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

I have been on the Google accessibility list for years, and remember when 
JavaScript change was announced.

The google staffer actually said that only hackers do not use JavaScript.
In a blog etc.
The only  place where I have access to my gmail account in basic html is on 
shellworld.
google thinks it is my home computer, and believe me, its a creative hard 
won  battle, for which I gladly pay for shellworld services alone..but I 
have other reasons to stay of course.
If you have  the cookies from when gmail let you log in with lynx, it 
might be possible, otherwise I  am unsure...sorry!

Kare



On Sat, 14 Jan 2023, Mouse wrote:


Verizon is using my Gail account, which still works in basic HTML for
me.


You later mention "Gmail", leading me to assume the "Gail" above is
supposed to be "Gmail".

If so...what do you have to do to make that work?  One of my workplaces
uses Google for their mail and, they said that "starting March 24,
2022" we "won't be able to sign into [our] accounts on browsers that
don't support JavaScript".  The actual date was somewhat after that; I
haven't been able to find any record of exactly when, but it happened.
And I just now tried again and got

| Couldn't sign you in
|
|The browser you're using doesn't support JavaScript, or has JavaScript
|turned off.
|
|To keep your Google Account secure, try signing in on a browser that
|has JavaScript turned on. Learn more

Of course, it don't bother explaining how requiring the exposed attack
surface of a JavaScript engine can possibly make anything more secure
than...not.

I would *love* to switch back to using lynx, but I haven't found any
way to get anything more useful than the misleading refusal above.


However, when I hit enter on this link, I get a badly formed address
error...which I admit is new.


It's been a while, but I do have a fuzzy memory that, years ago, I
found lynx erroring on links that "worked fine everywhere else" but
were not actually well-formed according to the spec.  Unfortunately,
that memory is too fuzzy for me to say much more.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

[Lynx-dev] a solution for this problem?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi All,
I am in the process of becoming a Verizon wireless customer for my 
Stateside office cell account.
While most of the process has been lynx inclusive, at least  between me 
and their national accessibility customer service center, we are all 
stumped with my agreeing to the terms and conditions.

Verizon is using my Gail account, which still works in basic HTML for me.
Lynx is the associated browser.
When I select the  agree  to your  terms its refresh which is typical.
However, when I hit enter on this link, I get a badly formed address 
error...which I admit is new.
Are there any lynx settings I can change short term that will allow this 
link to function?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

Oh I suppose you were referring to the slight edits I do.  The site itself 
that I touch up when needful, 
was created by a professional.
Only reason why I am asking about WordPress is because dreamhost makes the 
tool   available, on their platform, where the new  site will be located.
Otherwise I am finding someone else to create the new site, as I did my 
own.




On Tue, 3 Jan 2023, Tim Chase wrote:


dreamhost provides the WordPress tool, but they also just provide
regular ftp for uploading.


Is there something in particular that WordPress offers over your
current setup?

It has some nice web-facing tools for administering the site and
tracking drafts, but it sounds like you already have a process that
works for you, and if the admin interface doesn't work in Lynx,
then I'd strongly bias toward a different web solution.

The `wp-cli` tool is pretty complex and tends to assume a strong
pre-existing working knowledge of WordPress.  So even if you go
that route, there's a large learning curve ahead that way.


desire a tool, and since WordPress is offered, thought I would ask.


I don't want to deter you from tackling the adventure since there's
certainly a lot of *power* with WordPress, and I'm always an advocate
for learning new skills.  But if they're not directly solving a
problem you have, and you don't aspire to get into WordPress
development more full-time (or just to do it because you want to),
then I'd suggest there are easier ways to the same/similar end
without sparring with Wordpress.


any easy creation tool that is not WordPress then?


If you want to have templates that apply across the site, using a
static site generator can make that easier for you.  It allows you
to type up your posts (whether in raw HTML which it sounds like
you're comfortable with, or using Markdown which can be a little
easier for some folks), and then the SSG churns across all those
input post files and creates an output directory you can upload as
you're already familiar with.  And most come with a selection of
templates (plus additional ones you can download) so you can change
the whole site by just changing templates and telling the SSG to
regenerate the site.  I've done this more than once (changing
templates) and it's usually a matter of changing one line of
configuration to point to the new theme, and then letting it
regenerate (depending on the number of pages, this is a couple
seconds or maybe a minute)

-tim

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

There is  no current setup as the site does not exist yet.



On Tue, 3 Jan 2023, Tim Chase wrote:


dreamhost provides the WordPress tool, but they also just provide
regular ftp for uploading.


Is there something in particular that WordPress offers over your
current setup?

It has some nice web-facing tools for administering the site and
tracking drafts, but it sounds like you already have a process that
works for you, and if the admin interface doesn't work in Lynx,
then I'd strongly bias toward a different web solution.

The `wp-cli` tool is pretty complex and tends to assume a strong
pre-existing working knowledge of WordPress.  So even if you go
that route, there's a large learning curve ahead that way.


desire a tool, and since WordPress is offered, thought I would ask.


I don't want to deter you from tackling the adventure since there's
certainly a lot of *power* with WordPress, and I'm always an advocate
for learning new skills.  But if they're not directly solving a
problem you have, and you don't aspire to get into WordPress
development more full-time (or just to do it because you want to),
then I'd suggest there are easier ways to the same/similar end
without sparring with Wordpress.


any easy creation tool that is not WordPress then?


If you want to have templates that apply across the site, using a
static site generator can make that easier for you.  It allows you
to type up your posts (whether in raw HTML which it sounds like
you're comfortable with, or using Markdown which can be a little
easier for some folks), and then the SSG churns across all those
input post files and creates an output directory you can upload as
you're already familiar with.  And most come with a selection of
templates (plus additional ones you can download) so you can change
the whole site by just changing templates and telling the SSG to
regenerate the site.  I've done this more than once (changing
templates) and it's usually a matter of changing one line of
configuration to point to the new theme, and then letting it
regenerate (depending on the number of pages, this is a couple
seconds or maybe a minute)

-tim

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Tom,
To insure I am following, there is a plug in called classic editor?
I may be able  to allow dreamhost  the chance to create a test environment 
for  me, they did offer.
Granted they use an older edition of lynx, but I do appreciate what you 
provide here.

Karen



On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Tom Masterson wrote:


I have 4 sites that I work on all in Wordpress.  The accessibility of editing 
them depends on what plugins you use.  She classic editor is very easy to use 
and in many cases I simply use lynx and if it is a large Chang pull it to vim 
and then save it back to lynx press tehe save button on the page and press on.  
For things that need to be pretty I ask my wife for help as colors and image 
placement have little meaning for me.

Tom

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 1, 2023, at 18:51, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Hi there,
I agree with ease, my personal site is in html, so  when I have to change 
things  like a phone number, I can just use an editor.
However, this site will be new.
dreamhost provides the WordPress tool, but they also just provide regular ftp 
for uploading.
If I could find  someone willing to do the work, I would just  pay them within, 
reason.
Everything will be local, as in in my dream host workspace.  just desire a 
tool, and since WordPress is offered, thought I would ask.
Keeping in mind that I use shellworld, although I do have links for DOS on my 
computer, any easy creation tool that is not WordPress  then?
Karen




On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Tim Chase wrote:


On 2022-12-30 23:42, Karen Lewellen wrote:
While I generally have few issues accessing WordPress created
sites, at least the one I have encountered, that does not necessarily
translate to the tool itself.


If I understand correctly, I believe you're talking about the
accessibility of the admin/authoring portions of Wordpress which
is independent of the accessibility of the resulting site published
using Wordpress.


Anyone successfully use WordPress with Lynx?


It's been a while since I've played with an install.  If the
admin/authoring panel isn't accessible from lynx (which might well
be the case since there was a major shift a while back in the
content-editor widget, changing from a more straightforward text
entry box to a rich-edit box), there's "wp-cli" (https://wp-cli.org/)
utility which lets you manage just about every aspect of a Wordpress
install from the command-line, including posting and comment
management.

That said, unless I *have* to use Wordpress for something, I generally
prefer using a static site generator (SSG) to maintain my personal
sites.  I use a combination of Nikola (https://getnikola.com/) and
a custom SSG that I wrote for my own uses depending on which site.
But there are lots of others like Hugo or Jekyll.  Big advantages
include:

- everything is local

- the generation process just creates an "output/" folder that you
can copy up to your server however you want (whether FTP, rsync,
scp, or some web GUI)

- there's nothing dynamic on the server that could be exploited/hacked
since it's all just text files

- the resulting pages are FAST even on a ridiculously underpowered
VPS instance or shared-hosting box

Anyways, just a collection of my random thoughts & ramblings.

-tim

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi there,
 I agree with ease, my personal site is in html, so  when I have to change 
things  like a phone number, I can just use an editor.

However, this site will be new.
dreamhost provides the WordPress tool, but they also just provide regular 
ftp for uploading.
If I could find  someone willing to do the work, I would just  pay them 
within, reason.
Everything will be local, as in in my dream host workspace.  just desire a 
tool, and since WordPress is offered, thought I would ask.
Keeping in mind that I use shellworld, although I do have links for DOS on 
my computer, any easy creation tool that is not WordPress  then?

Karen



On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Tim Chase wrote:


On 2022-12-30 23:42, Karen Lewellen wrote:

While I generally have few issues accessing WordPress created
sites, at least the one I have encountered, that does not necessarily
translate to the tool itself.


If I understand correctly, I believe you're talking about the
accessibility of the admin/authoring portions of Wordpress which
is independent of the accessibility of the resulting site published
using Wordpress.


Anyone successfully use WordPress with Lynx?


It's been a while since I've played with an install.  If the
admin/authoring panel isn't accessible from lynx (which might well
be the case since there was a major shift a while back in the
content-editor widget, changing from a more straightforward text
entry box to a rich-edit box), there's "wp-cli" (https://wp-cli.org/)
utility which lets you manage just about every aspect of a Wordpress
install from the command-line, including posting and comment
management.

That said, unless I *have* to use Wordpress for something, I generally
prefer using a static site generator (SSG) to maintain my personal
sites.  I use a combination of Nikola (https://getnikola.com/) and
a custom SSG that I wrote for my own uses depending on which site.
But there are lots of others like Hugo or Jekyll.  Big advantages
include:

- everything is local

- the generation process just creates an "output/" folder that you
can copy up to your server however you want (whether FTP, rsync,
scp, or some web GUI)

- there's nothing dynamic on the server that could be exploited/hacked
since it's all just text files

- the resulting pages are FAST even on a ridiculously underpowered
VPS instance or shared-hosting box

Anyways, just a collection of my random thoughts & ramblings.

-tim

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Chime,
I respect your experience, but that was not my question.
One reason why  I point this out is that, for example, bold blind beauty 
uses WordPress.

And their efforts work perfectly, at least the elements I seek, with lynx.
After all, if the videos you are getting are on YouTube, then YouTube 
itself adds complexities, and lack of inclusion.

Best,
Karen



On Fri, 30 Dec 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well Karen, almost all of the time there is a Broadcasting site where they 
post airchecks. In many cases I need to run an external in LYNX to grab a 
youtube video. In general I would say word press sites are messy.

Chime

[Lynx-dev] Lynx and Wordpress?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
While I generally have few issues accessing WordPress created sites, at 
least the one I have encountered, that does not necessarily translate to 
the  tool itself.

Anyone successfully use WordPress  with Lynx?
Thanks,
Karen

[Lynx-dev] silly lynx question, but I want to be sure.

[Karen Lewellen]

During a discussion about GitHub's limited accessibility on another list, 
lynx was recommended.
One member, who also find the New York times article about Lynx helping with 
data usage wants to find a copy.

They are on a mobile device of some kind..where do I send them?
Kare

Re: [Lynx-dev] duckduckgo

[Karen Lewellen]

Speaking personally, I wonder if your blank page was caused by something 
else?



When I tried your link just now, it worked just fine for me on shellworld. 
Further,  I normally just go to duckduckgo reaching the lite edition from 
lynx on its own.

Might be how  things are configured here, but there you go.
best,
Karen




On Tue, 25 Oct 2022, rbell--- via Lynx-dev wrote:



http://www.duckduckgo.com/html stopped working for lynx - one
gets a blank page.  I had to look at the source to find that
http://www.duckduckgo.com/html/lite does.

russell bell

Re: [Lynx-dev] CloudFront May be Blocking us?

[Karen Lewellen]

ah, okay, then my google search produced the correct information just now.
Did you  try Links the chain for that ticket?
It may be that  generally speaking, only the list owner can get an answer 
from them, because he is a customer.
When I googled "contact cloudfront," many connection options were 
presented.  was using e-links though.

Karen



On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi Karen: All I know is CloudFront is related with Amazon. And thank you, I 
will try-and-contact dvids support about Lynx as well as an IP address.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] CloudFront May be Blocking us?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Chime,
Where is cloudfront located?
Am I correct that the site owner, with whom you  have contact, can 
actually reach cloudfront?
Here is my suggestion, at least it worked for cloudflare visiting patreon 
from lynx  here at shellworld.
have the list owner to ask cloudfront if  he can clear you via your IP 
address. in lynx, it should? be a constant, at least it is for my accounts 
here at shellworld.
The problem is that lynx, like edbrowse, has a reputation  for  being used 
by hackers.
what I did notice on your cloudfront error page is that the company wants 
to learn.  Making it possible that with a bit of education, Lynx can be 
cleared as a browser, given far more folks in unique situations  use it 
than hackers.

kare



On Mon, 17 Oct 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi All: This seems to be happening more than I would like! Nearly every day I 
visit

www.dvidshub.net
All was fine until maybe last Wednesday when I began seeing an error 403, but 
even unchecking a user-agent didn't help, as I saw a Coud Front error. I did 
contact dvids support, who asked for a screeen shot. But in trying to contact 
cloudfront, not only are they saying support for IE ended on July 30, but 
without java I cannot submit a ticket. And no, L Y N X is certainly not an 
only browser where I cannot connect. As an experiment, I was able to connect 
on my Wife's windows7 machine. This site is valuable in finding out about 
live-and-recorded Defense Department videos. Thanks so much in advance

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] freelists.org and lynx; colors on INS: or DEL:

[Karen Lewellen]

Jude,
were you able to subscribe at freelist.org?
Recently that had added a barrier, so am wondering.
Karen



On Sat, 15 Oct 2022, rbell--- via Lynx-dev wrote:


Wrote Jude DaShiell, 'I noticed in the options box for lynx
was all manner of strange accent characters but links filtered those
out.  Can I set something on lynx to have lynx filter those characters
out too?'
I don't see it.  Perhaps the character set?  found in the
options menu.


Wrote "jindam, vani", 'i want to assign or view background or
foreground colors for INS: or DEL:'
Would setting colors for ins and del in the main styles help?
I just set:

del:blue:yellow
ins:yellow:blue

in the first section and the foreground colors came out as specified
but the background remained the default.  I've never used prettysource
so I'll leave that to experts.

russell bell

Re: [Lynx-dev] ot: w3m question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Thanks folks w3m  seems to not be a viable solution.
Unfortunately lynx does not work either, but perhaps  the trace file will 
help the site owner fix this problem.
For the record, a fanfiction writer who keeps  his finished  chapters on 
their own site has a password field.  apparently, in links the chain, a 
username is needed too, was wanting a way to capture that in links the 
chain, but do not believe? there is an equal to trace, or screenshot in 
the chain?

Kare



On Sat, 17 Sep 2022, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Jude DaShiell dixit:


is I think an accessibility problem of w3m.


Do not worry, I am sighted yet have not figured out how to actually use
www-wo-miru yet; lynx (while sometimes slow) gives me the best overall
results, I use links (the chain) occasionally but only for specific
purposes.

bye,
//mirabilos
--

Wish I had pine to hand :-( I'll give lynx a try, thanks.


Michael Schmitz on nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.ports.68k
a.k.a. {news.gmane.org/nntp}#news.gmane.linux.debian.ports.68k in pine

Re: [Lynx-dev] ot: w3m question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Interestingly enough I tried it with google first, hitting entre on  the 
spot where the search box should be, which worked.
However, my actual goal which is providing a password on a secure site, 
failed to open the password entry field.




On Fri, 16 Sep 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:


From what I read, the form entry has first to be selected before it can be
edited.  Now, how in w3m you locate controls with text and without color
is I think an accessibility problem of w3m.



Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Typing enter on a form entry that's an edit box does not get focus changed
to edit mode in w3m with the version of w3m running on my machine.



Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Haven't used w3m for a while, but when I did if memory serves hitting
enter on the place where the text box is supposed to appear got me into
editing that text box.



Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Hi all,
only asking because the browser has been referenced when others encountered
lynx  situations.
Is there a specific command to make text boxes appear, so one can type in
them?
consider doing a search as an example, although that is not my goal.
Thanks,
Karen

[Lynx-dev] ot: w3m question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
only asking because the browser has been referenced when others 
encountered lynx  situations.
Is there a specific command to make text boxes appear, so one can type in 
them?

consider doing a search as an example, although that is not my goal.
Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] dev.to website doesn't load, full support for HTML5?

[Karen Lewellen]

Adding my stance, knowing others will as well.
One feature I would appreciate, it might exist in the config file, but I 
am using a service, is an option that indeed lets you choose user agent 
headers.
There is no such thing as most websites, individuals visit individually. 
still, having the ability to move back and forth between the default lynx 
agent, which works for most sites I visit, and an alternative that might 
avoid 403 errors would be helpful.
So would encouraging folks not to block lynx itself, but that is another 
discussion.

just my  sickles.
Kare



On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Robin Stern wrote:


Yes that header works! Am new to this woke side of internet, so a couple of 
questions:
   1) How does one select a header that works for most websites?
   2) How often does one need to change this header?
   3) Do pages render significantly different with different headers? Is there 
some header wisdom, other than putting l_y_n_x or lynx in it?

On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 11:51:23AM -0600, rb...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:

Quoth Robin Stern: 'A buzzing developer website https://dev.to
does not load in lynx,'
Buzzing annoys lynxes.
It works with my User-Agent header:

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; rv:1.9.2) Gecko/20100115 
Firefox/3.6 l_y_n_x

russell bell

Re: [Lynx-dev] Don't open link on left mouse click

[Karen Lewellen]

who said anything about using the list page?
That is not equal to using the / key, typing the word sign, and being 
taken swiftly to the active sign in link on the page.
My main point about  w3m though is that I have no real reason to try again 
since it did not  pass the library's must use JavaScript door.
Neither does lynx, but I can still search, quickly, the library catalog 
using lynx.
I agree with others though, I do not  use a mouse...at all, so lynx 
managing  mouse functions is not important for me personally.




On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Robin Stern wrote:


@Karen this is getting off topic. Because you are new to w3m, you are
probably unaware of some goodness from it that can be inherits by lynx.
Most importantly, you can display and search just the title of links by
pressing Meta-m, which is Escape-m by default. It???s a way better feature
than what lynx has as list page that lists the long URLs that don???t mean
anything a lot of the time.

On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 12:38 PM Karen Lewellen 
wrote:


But lynx allows one to search the page using the slash key.  why would one
use  tab keys when one can narrow down the link goal?
granted, I just tried w3m for the first time this afternoon, not
JavaScript enough  for the Toronto public library, but neither is links or
elinks.
still,  not having the slash key find option meant it took me longer to
reach   the link I sought.
Kare



On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Robin Stern wrote:


On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 02:15:46PM +0100, David Woolley wrote:

On 02/08/2022 12:20, Mouse wrote:

(a) so here's an opportunity for lynx to do better!


They did it at a time when the convention of single click to select and
double click to activate was a standard part of the Windows user

interface.

I think they took that position that selection wasn't something that

people

wanted to do with hypertext links, i.e., I think they thought single

click

activation was the better solution, for the hypertext use case.


There is another important reason why its more natural for w3m and lynx

to not follow the link on click. That ie because the user might then want
to press '.' to open the underlying link in an external graphical browser
like Firefox etc. At the moment if there is a link surrounded by other
links on all of N, E, S, W directions then it is impossible to select it
and press '.' to open in an external viewer. One is forced to press tab/
arrow keys multiple times to first reach to that link and then press '.'.

Re: [Lynx-dev] Don't open link on left mouse click

[Karen Lewellen]

But lynx allows one to search the page using the slash key.  why would one 
use  tab keys when one can narrow down the link goal?
granted, I just tried w3m for the first time this afternoon, not 
JavaScript enough  for the Toronto public library, but neither is links or 
elinks.
still,  not having the slash key find option meant it took me longer to 
reach   the link I sought.

Kare



On Tue, 2 Aug 2022, Robin Stern wrote:


On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 02:15:46PM +0100, David Woolley wrote:

On 02/08/2022 12:20, Mouse wrote:

(a) so here's an opportunity for lynx to do better!


They did it at a time when the convention of single click to select and
double click to activate was a standard part of the Windows user interface.
I think they took that position that selection wasn't something that people
wanted to do with hypertext links, i.e., I think they thought single click
activation was the better solution, for the hypertext use case.


There is another important reason why its more natural for w3m and lynx to not 
follow the link on click. That ie because the user might then want to press '.' 
to open the underlying link in an external graphical browser like Firefox etc. 
At the moment if there is a link surrounded by other links on all of N, E, S, W 
directions then it is impossible to select it and press '.' to open in an 
external viewer. One is forced to press tab/ arrow keys multiple times to first 
reach to that link and then press '.'.

[Lynx-dev] Lynx-accessible flight searches? (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
No idea why I got this privately, but sharing in case someone can help 
this person?




-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 19:10:53 +0300 (EEST)
From: Riku Virtanen 
To: Karen Lewellen 
Subject: Lynx-accessible flight searches?

Hi Karen,

15 years ago practically all flight search sites supported Lynx.
Today I don't know even one.
Do you know?

Regards,
Riku

Re: [Lynx-dev] For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws (fwd)

[Karen Lewellen]

Sharing this, in case it misses the list.



-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 21:26:57 +0200
From: Gisle Vanem 
To: Karen Lewellen 
Subject: Re: [Lynx-dev] For Blind Internet Users,
the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws


 Really?
 When I followed the link in Lynx, I went right to the  article, no issues.


I do not use Lynx regularly. Very few people really do.
I'm a little nearsighted, but not blind :-)

I was just "helping" people not using Lynx (w/o JavaScript)
that they could download my scraped-off NYT article that
I saved as a PDF on my home-page.

These are the options to deal with such issues AFAICS:

1) Add a rule in Chrome etc. to block the use of JavaScript
for https://www.nytimes.com only.

2.1) Go to a NYT link, right-click and Save as "only HTML".
  This gives a local .html file with no JavaScript blocking
  the content.

2.2) Optionally print the above local HTML-file as PDF-file using
  the Windows "Print to PDF-file" option which I used.
  But this does not include any pictures in an article.

Do you see other simple options to bypass a "pay-wall" like this?

There is this Chrome extension that I've not tried:
   https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome

"A web browser extension to help bypass paywalls for
  selected sites."

It mentions "New York Times" so it could be working.

Re: [Lynx-dev] For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws

[Karen Lewellen]

Travis,
Are you documenting those t-mobile accessibility issues directly with 
their team?

accessibil...@t-mobile.com
I am asking because..someone should.
I am a prepaid customer, but am not entitled to accessibility for this 
reason...even if paying every single month.
And of course, the New York times has a comments section, I believe? so fire 
away.  this article is not going to raise your issues, regarding how 
simple is not only best, but more inclusive..but the next one can.

Kare



On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

Thanks for that.  I couldn't read this article the first time it came up on 
a mailing list I was on because of the nytimes login requirement.


The thing that this article does not point out is that in general, making a 
site accessible is relatively easy, and largely consists of not doing fancy 
useless things with their html code.


Javascript probably makes more sites inaccessible than any other technology I 
can think of.


Especially when javascript is used to handle things that html already does.

A properly designed web site will be perfectly accessible, and there's no 
need to resort to AI or any other kind of tools to get the job done.  The 
problem is that webmasters (or more often than not) page generators haven't a 
clue about accessibility, and don't know that simple things like image 
descriptions, button labels and real html code (instead of javascript) do way 
more to make a site accessible than some automated generator that has 
templates that are loaded with garbage just to fill out the page size, so 
folks don't feel cheated, or so that the company generating the generator can 
claim the most capabilities over all other generators.


It's rather silly to be honest.

t-mobile is one of the sites that uses one of these site generator things to 
make the site accessible.  It (mostly) works, but there's one major issue, 
and that's that a screen reader user can't actually order anything on their 
site, because the button to confirm your selections after all is said and 
done isn't viewable by the screen reader.  Kind of defeats the purpose of 
having that accessibility mode, but 


I've complained about that many times, and nothing has been done, yet, and I 
expect nothing will be done anytime soon.


I bug the hell out of them by calling them on the phone, and making them do 
the order that way.  They keep complaining I don't use the site, and I keep 
complaining it doesn't work, so calls can get quite entertaining.



On 7/17/2022 1:39 PM, Gisle Vanem wrote:

 Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
>  sharing this article, not only because it is terrific, but it fortifies 
>  ways  continuing to keep Lynx at the table creates solutions.

>  Few tools manage basic code better speaking personally.
>  Kare
> 
>  -- Forwarded message --

>  Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
>  Subject: For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws
> 
> 
>  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/technology/ai-web-accessibility.html


 For those w/o a New York Times subscription, I've
 scraped it and saved it as a PDF here:
   https://www.watt-32.net/misc/For-Blind-Internet-Users-NYT.pdf

 (or use Lynx or turn off JavaScript in Chrome etc.)

Re: [Lynx-dev] For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws

[Karen Lewellen]

Really?
When I followed the link in Lynx, I went right to the  article, no 
issues.




On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Gisle Vanem wrote:


Karen Lewellen wrote:


 sharing this article, not only because it is terrific, but it fortifies
 ways  continuing to keep Lynx at the table creates solutions.
 Few tools manage basic code better speaking personally.
 Kare

 -- Forwarded message --
 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
 Subject: For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws


 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/technology/ai-web-accessibility.html


For those w/o a New York Times subscription, I've
scraped it and saved it as a PDF here:
  https://www.watt-32.net/misc/For-Blind-Internet-Users-NYT.pdf

(or use Lynx or turn off JavaScript in Chrome etc.)

--
--gv

[Lynx-dev] For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws

[Karen Lewellen]

sharing this article, not only because it is terrific, but it fortifies 
ways  continuing to keep Lynx at the table creates solutions.

Few tools manage basic code better speaking personally.
Kare

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: For Blind Internet Users, the Fix Can Be Worse Than the Flaws


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/technology/ai-web-accessibility.html

Companies say their A.I.-powered tools are the best way to fix accessibility 
problems online, but many blind people find they make websites
harder to use.

Re: [Lynx-dev] NYTimes RSS feeds

[Karen Lewellen]

This is the new  York times.
they sell advertising by insuring everyone regardless of how their body 
works  gets the kind of journalism allowing them to be informed 
citizens...its how they sell papers.




On Sun, 3 Jul 2022, David Woolley wrote:


On 03/07/2022 19:39, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 On Sat, 2 Jul 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

>  given one of their technology writers recommended lynx to those wanting 
>  a

>  more  data respectful, low graphics tool to use,


If they behave like a typical business, there will be a complete disconnect 
between what content authors write and how the business itself works.


As always the business is an advertising business, not an (accessible) news 
provider.

Re: [Lynx-dev] NYTimes RSS feeds

[Karen Lewellen]

Clearly meant for the list, no idea why it came to me privately.



On Sun, 3 Jul 2022, dan d. wrote:



I was under the impression the n.y.times is all subscription and lynx somehow 
sneaks in the backdoor.  Speaking with them about rss would blow
the whole thing.

On Sat, 2 Jul 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Hi there,
The challenge with a work around is that no one informs the Ny times so
they might  correct the issue.
given one of their technology writers recommended lynx to those wanting a
more  data respectful, low graphics tool to use, I would tell them.
as for a solution, well, I have no idea how such feeds work, I do not use
them.
still, I have long kept the below in my bookmarks.
mobile.nytimes.com
When I start from that door and choose the link associated with this feed
thing, I do get actual content.
I do not get links,  but as expressed, I am unsure what is standard here.
Hope this helps some,
Karen



On Sat, 2 Jul 2022, aalin...@riseup.net wrote:


Using lynx version 2.9.0dev.10 I find I am suddenly unable to access any of the 
NYTimes RSS feeds.
The error I am getting is: "Please enable JS and disable any adblockers".
I am getting the same error with w3m.
Right now the only text browse that appears to work is links the chain.

I am curious if anyone else is seeing this and if there is a possible work 
around as i would prefer using
lynx over links the chain.

Thank you,
Arthur







--
ent-
XR

Re: [Lynx-dev] NYTimes RSS feeds

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi there,
The challenge with a work around is that no one informs the Ny times so 
they might  correct the issue.
given one of their technology writers recommended lynx to those wanting a 
more  data respectful, low graphics tool to use, I would tell them.
as for a solution, well, I have no idea how such feeds work, I do not use 
them.

still, I have long kept the below in my bookmarks.
mobile.nytimes.com
When I start from that door and choose the link associated with this feed 
thing, I do get actual content.

I do not get links,  but as expressed, I am unsure what is standard here.
Hope this helps some,
Karen



On Sat, 2 Jul 2022, aalin...@riseup.net wrote:


Using lynx version 2.9.0dev.10 I find I am suddenly unable to access any of the 
NYTimes RSS feeds.
The error I am getting is: "Please enable JS and disable any adblockers".
I am getting the same error with w3m.
Right now the only text browse that appears to work is links the chain.

I am curious if anyone else is seeing this and if there is a possible work 
around as i would prefer using
lynx over links the chain.

Thank you,
Arthur

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

But as stated, I was seeking answers for  someone who *is not* on this 
list...had no idea what lynx was at all in fact.
Travis made the 2011 comment important, because to borrow your own 
reasoning,  many who use mac infrastructure understand that one can keep 
upgrading  that infrastructure allowing it to remain current..there is for 
the most part  rarely such  a thing as ancient mac hardware.

Still your use of the word assumption rings true.
Others had no issues actually answering the question successfully.



On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, Bela Lubkin wrote:


The 2011 reference has absolutely nothing to do with my question.



That you consider my comment about a co-worker using a 2011 macbook pro to
be part of the question illustrates how much travesty this off course.


In your initial question you mentioned a person on a mailing list.  In a
later reply you mentioned a coworker with a 2011 system.  Since I was
not looking at the first post at that time, I made the assumption that
these were the same person.  You are the one who introduced a separate
and (as you say) irrelevant person.  I am the one who mistook that for a
repeat reference to the original person needing the info.


For goodness sake, why on earth would  my stating a co-worker used a
macbook pro at all have any  part in this discussion if they are not
seeking answers?


Because it was not clear that these were separate entities.

The initial form of your question was confusing because list members
here expect all versions of Lynx to work on all versions of Mac OS.  It
would be like asking 'has this car been tested with Brooklyn pavements?'
-- the respondents are flustered by the oddity of the question.

If you said 'I'm trying to help someone who needs Lynx on a Mac, where
can they get it?' nobody would have been confused.  The answer would
still be a little difficult because of the messy interaction Mac OS has
with open source.

I'm glad your list member will now be able to get Lynx going; and, one
hopes, successfully drive their braille and/or voice assistive devices.


Bela<

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Indeed those seasoned in mac os were appreciative.  big shore is a recent 
edition  of the system.

Another member indicated that Home brew is also used to distribute Lynx.
In the end I got the answer sought, helping  someone overseas dealing with 
international bookshare files too.

Thanks all,
Kare



On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Hi Karen,


To be forthright, I have no idea what fink is, nor have I heard of macports.


both are methods of packaging up commonly-available software for Mac OSX,
which does not have any repository for third-party software like, for
example, most GNU/Linux distributions do. There are others (e.g. pkgsrc
from NetBSD can be used), but these two are primarily intended for Mac OSX.


The use of the word ship in the context below seems? to suggest distribute.


Yes.


If that is the case, especially as I believe the  mac list members
asking about lynx are using big shore the last before the m1 units,


I have no idea what *that* means. But then, I don’t use a Macintosh
myself (I only have remote access to one for work stuff) and never
liked them.

Macintosh users would often know either Fink or Darwinports/macports.


then I feel comfortable sending them to the developer editions.


For some software, and lynx does indeed fit into that category,
their developer versions are more stable than most software’s
release versions. So go for it!

bye,
//mirabilos
--
[...] if maybe ext3fs wasn't a better pick, or jfs, or maybe reiserfs, oh but
what about xfs, and if only i had waited until reiser4 was ready... in the be-
ginning, there was ffs, and in the middle, there was ffs, and at the end, there
was still ffs, and the sys admins knew it was good. :)  -- Ted Unangst über *fs

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Travis,
1, I am not installing lynx at all.
2. others have correctly answered the question both on and off list.
3. there is no need for further discussion, because the actual question I 
asked has been answered, with my posting the answer to  the list where 
the 
information  was sought.

best,
Kare



On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:


Look.

I've already told you multiple ways you can install lynx for the mac.

Not my fault you don't like the answers.

Compile your own.

Use macports or one of the other package management systems available on the 
mac.


Find a page that already has compiled binaries for the mac.


There's other options too depending on how complicated one wishes to get, but 
these are the simplest methods.


Regardless of whether you like me or the answers above, the plain truth is 
that these are ways you can run lynx on the mac, period, end of story.


Take it or leave it.

Asking the question again won't garner you different answers, since you're 
clearly not interested in what I have to say, then feel free to ask away, but 
when others give you the same answers, don't be surprised.



On 6/22/2022 10:12 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Travis,
 I have changed this question.
 Please hear whatever you need to hear so you will choose to stop trying to
 justify your contribution, answering a question which as I illustrated is
 not what the person seeks.
 For the record, I have a work associate here in Toronto using a 2011
 macbook pro to run their business.
 So again, that you are not  actively engaged in running Lynx on your mac
 with  a braille display means that your contribution is not going to help
 Andrew.



 On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

>  I actually do have a macbook, but it's a 2013 model, so it doesn't have 
>  the latest version of macos on it, which is why I said (assuming the 
>  finder menus haven't changed).  Everything else I said is 100 percent 
>  accurate.
> 
>  Lynx can easily be compiled on the mac if one wishes to do so.
> 
>  There are also projects like mac ports and others who do the compiling 
>  for you (although generally not as a native mac executable), that will 
>  give you a binary version of a program. I also explained that using one 
>  of these package systems once trashed my mac, and it may not be the 
>  option you would want to use.
> 
>  I also answered the question about how to run it from finder, with an 
>  explanation that a script might be necessary to create the environment 
>  you want, because I don't know if the latest version of mac os uses the 
>  same environment you'd get if you ran it from the terminal.
> 
>  All of these things are helpful to someone who knows what is being 
>  spoken about.  If that isn't you, then simply pass along the message, 
>  and perhaps the original poster will have enough knowledge to use the 
>  information.
> 
>  Again, I'm not knocking anyone here, but if you don't have the technical 
>  knowledge to understand the answer, that doesn't make the answer wrong.
> 
>  You then tried to make it look like I was deliberately misunderstanding 
>  the question, by stating something from the original conversation that 
>  had not been mentioned in your original post.  I also answered that 
>  question, albeit in a way that probably wasn't very nice, although it 
>  too was a 100 percent correct answer.
> 
>  I say again, if you don't like the answers you're getting, perhaps it 
>  means you aren't asking the right questions.
> 
>  I have never set out to deliberately offer false or misleading 
>  information.  Sometimes my answers may not be what the question 
>  specifically asks, but it's always at least informational, and (usually) 
>  allows the original poster to obtain the required information if only 
>  said person knows enough to understand the answer.  I don't know the 
>  knowledge level of the person asking the question, (neither does anyone 
>  else on the list), so you have to expect answers that aren't always 
>  going to be what you expect, even if they are correct.
> 
>  I freely admit that sometimes I answer the question you asked, instead 
>  of the one you intended, even if the question you intended is 
>  understandable, because I am trying to get you to understand that asking 
>  the correct question is as important as obtaining the desired answer.
> 
>  I don't apologize for my answers, just as you shouldn't apologize for 
>  your questions, again, if you don't like (or understand) the answers, 
>  it's easy enough to restate the question or provide additional 
>  information that can clarify the question, then you generally get closer 
>  to the answer you want.
> 
>  I do this, because I think it's important that folks ask the question 
>  they want answered, not the question they think will p

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

The 2011 reference has absolutely nothing to do with my question.
Travis indicated he knew what the question was, he did not, further 
muddying the waters.
All I asked for the guy on the mac vision list was the current mac os that 
lynx has been tested with, and the edition of lynx...
That you consider my comment about a co-worker using a 2011 macbook pro to 
be part of the question illustrates how much travesty this off course.
To avoid his not being at fault for what they did not know, I stuck only 
to the simple desired question.

I did not ask for anything else, although I may have asked about terminal.
For goodness sake, why on earth would  my stating a co-worker used a 
macbook pro at all have any  part in this discussion if they are not 
seeking answers?
Travis brought up his 2013 macbook as if hardware would  mean issues, it 
would not if, as he claims, Lynx works on every single mac os edition 
known  to man.




On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Bela Lubkin wrote:


Karen Lewellen wrote:


So again, that you are not  actively engaged in running Lynx on your mac
with a braille display means that your contribution is not going to help
Andrew.


Karen,

You didn't mention braille at all in the original question.  You can
hardly fault Travis for not having answered most helpfully towards that
goal.

Now you've also introduced '2011 MacBook Pro', which undoubtedly also
means some rather out of date version of Mac OS.  In which case the
question your friend probably needs answered is, rather, 'What is the
newest or best version of Lynx I can get for INSERT NAME OF ANCIENT MAC
OS HERE?'

Or, furthermore, add: 'which is built in such a manner that it plays
nicely with assistive tools like a braille output device'.  And THAT
question is a deep question because different assistive software will
have different capabilities for receiving input.  The capability they
need to deal with Lynx is simple ASCII input from a shell-oriented
program.  This is a capability I would naturally expect any Linux
assistive software to have; and rather less likely on Windows; and I
don't venture to guess about Mac, except that it will be somewhere
between the two extremes.

=

The state of open source software on Macs is and always has been utterly
disastrous, as far as I can tell.  There are a bewildering number of
competing 'comprehensive' repositories of ported software: MacPorts,
Homebrew, Fink, and probably 2-3 others at lower tiers.  It is(*)
generally the case that if you go looking for a particular piece of open
software for the Mac, it will be available in one or more of those
repositories; frequently at different version levels.  If you need a
particular version, you're likely forced to a particular porting suite.
But then if you need something that isn't in that suite (or isn't up to
date in that suite, or is built with the such-and-such hooks, or just
doesn't quite work right), you probably need another one.  And they
clash like all get out.  I've been told by techie Mac users that the
different porting suites *don't* clash; and then I've had any Mac I ever
tried that on, catch fire.  Figuratively, more or less.

All of which means: if Andrew is doing serious complex work on his
ancient Mac, it is fairly likely that he already has one of these
porting suites.  It probably has Lynx in it, so he just has to type
'fink install lynx' or whatever the actual invocation is for that suite.
But, even that is quite tenuous because it's pretty likely that the
porting suites have by now given up on whatever old Mac OS he's running.

The *other* choice is to download the Lynx source, type './configure;
make'; and hope for the best.  It ought to build, assuming he has the
Mac development system 'xcode' installed.  On current versions of Mac
OS, if you try to run one of the command line development tools like
`make`, and Xcode isn't installed, it will guide you through that
installation.  I don't know about older releases.  It is also quite
likely that Apple in all their walledgardnitude will no longer *offer*
the Xcode for that old OS, and the current one won't install.

This mingled forest and swamp of disasters *can* be navigated through.
But it will not be as easy as just asking 'what version of Lynx'.


Bela<


(*)My own interactions with Macs are sporadic over the years.  My info
about open source porting environments is mostly out of date.  But I
doubt things have improved much.  Perhaps there is a new, awesome,
all-encompassing porting suite -- so now there would be 4 major
competitors which you would somehow have to balance on a system in order
to get all the pieces you want.

PS: a likely much easier question is: 'where can I get any sort of
version of Lynx, old or new, which runs on Mac OS version XYZ?'  Various
sorts of small independent builds exist.  They are probably not much
maintained, especially as builds for older OSes, so will be whatever old
version was last built compatibly with that OS release -- which sho

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Travis,
I have changed this question.
Please hear whatever you need to hear so you will choose to stop trying to 
justify your contribution, answering a question which as I illustrated 
is not what the person seeks.
For the record, I have a work associate here in Toronto using a 2011 
macbook pro to run their business.
So again, that you are not  actively engaged in running Lynx on your mac 
with  a braille display means that your contribution is not going to help 
Andrew.




On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

I actually do have a macbook, but it's a 2013 model, so it doesn't have the 
latest version of macos on it, which is why I said (assuming the finder menus 
haven't changed).  Everything else I said is 100 percent accurate.


Lynx can easily be compiled on the mac if one wishes to do so.

There are also projects like mac ports and others who do the compiling for 
you (although generally not as a native mac executable), that will give you a 
binary version of a program.  I also explained that using one of these 
package systems once trashed my mac, and it may not be the option you would 
want to use.


I also answered the question about how to run it from finder, with an 
explanation that a script might be necessary to create the environment you 
want, because I don't know if the latest version of mac os uses the same 
environment you'd get if you ran it from the terminal.


All of these things are helpful to someone who knows what is being spoken 
about.  If that isn't you, then simply pass along the message, and perhaps 
the original poster will have enough knowledge to use the information.


Again, I'm not knocking anyone here, but if you don't have the technical 
knowledge to understand the answer, that doesn't make the answer wrong.


You then tried to make it look like I was deliberately misunderstanding the 
question, by stating something from the original conversation that had not 
been mentioned in your original post.  I also answered that question, albeit 
in a way that probably wasn't very nice, although it too was a 100 percent 
correct answer.


I say again, if you don't like the answers you're getting, perhaps it means 
you aren't asking the right questions.


I have never set out to deliberately offer false or misleading information.  
Sometimes my answers may not be what the question specifically asks, but it's 
always at least informational, and (usually) allows the original poster to 
obtain the required information if only said person knows enough to 
understand the answer.  I don't know the knowledge level of the person 
asking the question, (neither does anyone else on the list), so you have to 
expect answers that aren't always going to be what you expect, even if they 
are correct.


I freely admit that sometimes I answer the question you asked, instead of the 
one you intended, even if the question you intended is understandable, 
because I am trying to get you to understand that asking the correct question 
is as important as obtaining the desired answer.


I don't apologize for my answers, just as you shouldn't apologize for your 
questions, again, if you don't like (or understand) the answers, it's easy 
enough to restate the question or provide additional information that can 
clarify the question, then you generally get closer to the answer you want.


I do this, because I think it's important that folks ask the question they 
want answered, not the question they think will provide the answer they 
want.  A minor but important difference.


I've seen mailing list discussions go on for months sometimes just because 
someone didn't ask the proper question.


Like I said, I'm guessing the question that the original person wanted 
answered is what's the latest version of lynx that is already compiled and 
can be downloaded and run on the mac w/no work, and where can it be obtained.


That isn't what was asked, so I answered the question that was asked.

Simple.


On 6/22/2022 9:03 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Travis,
 By your own admission you do not have a working mac computer.
 While I appreciate what you believe you are doing, my hope was that
 someone directly involved with using Lynx in this system, now, currently,
 can   answer this question.
 You may believe you are helping, but speaking personally, you are not
 contributing to an actual meaningful answer.



 On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

>  In that case, the answer is:
> 
>  Lynx is a text-based web browser, and the mac equivalent is (wait for 
>  it)...
> 
>  Lynx.
> 
>  On 6/22/2022 8:29 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> >   no, that was not the question at all.
> >   In fact, this person has a Braille display and cannot get voice 
> >  dream

> >   reader for  the mac to work well.
> >   i shared how I use lynx, load the .xml file provided by bookshare 
> >  and save
> >   it  as a text file, stating clearly that I am not

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Travis,
By your own admission you do not have a working mac computer.
While I appreciate what you believe you are doing, my hope was that 
someone directly involved with using Lynx in this system, now, currently, 
can   answer this question.
You may believe you are helping, but speaking personally, you are not 
contributing to an actual meaningful answer.




On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:


In that case, the answer is:

Lynx is a text-based web browser, and the mac equivalent is (wait for it)...

Lynx.

On 6/22/2022 8:29 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 no, that was not the question at all.
 In fact, this person has a Braille display and cannot get voice dream
 reader for  the mac to work well.
 i shared how I use lynx, load the .xml file provided by bookshare and save
 it  as a text file, stating clearly that I am not   using the mac to do
 this, or using braille  at all.
 Their question was.
 Karen, what is lynx, and what is the mac equivalent?
 So, probably for a conversation to which you are not  a party indeed
 makes things complicated...and a longer thread.
 karen



 On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

>  The simple answer is that the latest version of lynx available for mac 
>  is the same exact version of lynx available for any other platform, 
>  (whatever that may be at the time of asking).
> 
>  My answer was simply an explanation of how versions that were not posted 
>  on the web site (if indeed they were posted) could be created for the 
>  mac.
> 
>  Not trying to be difficult here, but the question the original person 
>  probably wanted to know is:
> 
>  What version of lynx is posted on the official site for OSX.
> 
>  Since that wasn't the question actually presented, I simply answered how 
>  the original poster could obtain the latest version of lynx with some 
>  information about having trouble with a particular package system, 
>  thereby warning them they could use said system, but that it might cause 
>  them problems.
> 
>  Nothing says you have to like the answer I gave, but to be perfectly 
>  fair, it is a valid answer, whether you like the answer or not.
> 
> 
>  On 6/22/2022 7:59 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> >   Travis,
> >   As expressed, this question is not for me, with your answers far 
> >  afield

> >   from the  simple information sought.
> >   on the lynx.browser.org page mac os x is listed as an option, with 
> >  my

> >   recalling  a list member getting help using that edition for site
> >   testing.
> >   However, that does not tell me what the current lynx edition is for 
> >  mac,

> >   which is the question I was asked.
> >   best,
> >   Karen
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:
> > 
> > >   Been a while since I had a working mac, but last time I did, 
> >  compiling >  one from source was trivial, and caused no issues. (this 
> >  is almost >  always how I handle opensource software), especially 
> >  since on mac, the > macports they have that is supposed to make things 
> >  easier trashed my >  machine once, so I will never use that 
> >  particular cludge again.  On the >  other hand, the lynx download 
> >  page does have various versions, though I >  don't know if there's 
> >  one there for mac or not.
> > > >   As far as putting it into a section on the finder menus, that's 
> >  easy >  enough (assuming it hasn't changed), just use root access to 
> >  copy the >  program to the folder in question, and problem solved. On 
> >  the other >  hand, since it's a terminal program, you may need to 
> >  create a script to >  launch it with the particular environment you 
> >  want, as I'm not sure if >  it picks up the terminal defaults when 
> >  being launched from finder.
> > > >   Probably doesn't answer the question, but it may give enough 
> >  for the >  original poster to figure out what's necessary.

> > > > >   On 6/22/2022 10:26 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> > > >    Hi folks,
> > > >    A question from the voiceover list to which I belong.
> > > >    I recall that there is a lynx compile for mac os X but am 
> >  unsure of > >  how
> > > >    updated.  Also can lynx be say added to the browser 
> > applications > >   folder,

> > > >    or must it be run in terminal?
> > > >    Thanks,
> > > >    Karen
> > > > > > > > > 
> 
> 
> 

[Lynx-dev] rephrasing the mac question.

[Karen Lewellen]

Okay, let me ask it differently in the hope of getting my this person 
something useful.
what  is the last mac os x edition that lynx has been tested on to 
support?

Or does it not matter?
I ask because when I search
lynx for the mac,
What I find suggests lion.
Thanks,
Kare

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

no, that was not the question at all.
In fact, this person has a Braille display and cannot get voice dream 
reader for  the mac to work well.
i shared how I use lynx, load the .xml file provided by bookshare and save 
it  as a text file, stating clearly that I am not   using the mac to do 
this, or using braille  at all.

Their question was.
Karen, what is lynx, and what is the mac equivalent?
So, probably for a conversation to which you are not  a party indeed makes 
things complicated...and a longer thread.

karen



On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

The simple answer is that the latest version of lynx available for mac is the 
same exact version of lynx available for any other platform, (whatever that 
may be at the time of asking).


My answer was simply an explanation of how versions that were not posted on 
the web site (if indeed they were posted) could be created for the mac.


Not trying to be difficult here, but the question the original person 
probably wanted to know is:


What version of lynx is posted on the official site for OSX.

Since that wasn't the question actually presented, I simply answered how the 
original poster could obtain the latest version of lynx with some information 
about having trouble with a particular package system, thereby warning them 
they could use said system, but that it might cause them problems.


Nothing says you have to like the answer I gave, but to be perfectly fair, it 
is a valid answer, whether you like the answer or not.



On 6/22/2022 7:59 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Travis,
 As expressed, this question is not for me, with your answers far afield
 from the  simple information sought.
 on the lynx.browser.org page mac os x is listed as an option, with my
 recalling  a list member getting help using that edition for site
 testing.
 However, that does not tell me what the current lynx edition is for mac,
 which is the question I was asked.
 best,
 Karen



 On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

>  Been a while since I had a working mac, but last time I did, compiling 
>  one from source was trivial, and caused no issues. (this is almost 
>  always how I handle opensource software), especially since on mac, the 
>  macports they have that is supposed to make things easier trashed my 
>  machine once, so I will never use that particular cludge again.  On the 
>  other hand, the lynx download page does have various versions, though I 
>  don't know if there's one there for mac or not.
> 
>  As far as putting it into a section on the finder menus, that's easy 
>  enough (assuming it hasn't changed), just use root access to copy the 
>  program to the folder in question, and problem solved. On the other 
>  hand, since it's a terminal program, you may need to create a script to 
>  launch it with the particular environment you want, as I'm not sure if 
>  it picks up the terminal defaults when being launched from finder.
> 
>  Probably doesn't answer the question, but it may give enough for the 
>  original poster to figure out what's necessary.
> 
> 
>  On 6/22/2022 10:26 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> >   Hi folks,
> >   A question from the voiceover list to which I belong.
> >   I recall that there is a lynx compile for mac os X but am unsure of 
> >  how
> >   updated.  Also can lynx be say added to the browser applications 
> >  folder,

> >   or must it be run in terminal?
> >   Thanks,
> >   Karen
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Travis,
As expressed, this question is not for me, with your answers far afield 
from the  simple information sought.
on the lynx.browser.org page mac os x is listed as an option, with my 
recalling  a list member getting help using that edition for site testing.
However, that does not tell me what the current lynx edition is for mac, 
which is the question I was asked.

best,
Karen



On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

Been a while since I had a working mac, but last time I did, compiling one 
from source was trivial, and caused no issues. (this is almost always how I 
handle opensource software), especially since on mac, the macports they have 
that is supposed to make things easier trashed my machine once, so I will 
never use that particular cludge again.  On the other hand, the lynx 
download page does have various versions, though I don't know if there's one 
there for mac or not.


As far as putting it into a section on the finder menus, that's easy enough 
(assuming it hasn't changed), just use root access to copy the program to the 
folder in question, and problem solved. On the other hand, since it's a 
terminal program, you may need to create a script to launch it with the 
particular environment you want, as I'm not sure if it picks up the terminal 
defaults when being launched from finder.


Probably doesn't answer the question, but it may give enough for the original 
poster to figure out what's necessary.



On 6/22/2022 10:26 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Hi folks,
 A question from the voiceover list to which I belong.
 I recall that there is a lynx compile for mac os X but am unsure of how
 updated.  Also can lynx be say added to the browser applications folder,
 or must it be run in terminal?
 Thanks,
 Karen

[Lynx-dev] latest mac edition of Lynx?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
A question from the voiceover list to which I belong.
I recall that there is a lynx compile for mac os X but am unsure of how 
updated.  Also can lynx be say added to the browser applications folder, 
or must it be run in terminal?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] Lynx vs Links vs w3m

[Karen Lewellen]

speaking personally, I have nothing to say about w3m, because I have not, 
and cannot imagine needing, to use it for   any task.
That being said, as someone who uses lynx and links  daily, many times a 
day, your either or question does not fully  work for me, because both 
tools have their uses.
I prefer lynx because it speaks well, allows me to save and  or email 
content  to myself,  does a wonderful job with cookies and bookmarks, and 
that is just off the top of my head.
Links the chain, for all its JavaScript helpful baseline does not allow 
cookies, given the importance cookies plays for many sites, that can make 
it almost  useless at frankly many places.
For me, the DOS edition does not speak well, although the Links edition I 
use at shellworld does, have yet to discover why that is the case.
links the chain does not, or not that I can tell,  manage bookmarks nearly 
as well, but truly the lack of cookies in the browser is just stunning.
Are there places I can visit in Links the chain that I cannot visit in 
lynx?  certainly, just as there are places I can use e-links where I 
cannot use links the chain.
To be forthright, I wish e-links was still under development, for the 
greater JavaScript gifts, not that I do not reach for  what I have here 
at shellworld when needful.
You know something? many times I read that someone might use say Firefox 
in one case, and say chrome in another.  I fail  to see  how those choices 
differ from lynx in one case and links the chain for another.

Just my thoughts,
Karen



On Mon, 13 Jun 2022, Softwafe Engineer wrote:


Hello everyone. My question is mainly addressed to lynx users.
Why do you prefer lynx over another terminal browsers like w3m or links?
What are the benefits it can offer to user over others?

Thanks.

Re: [Lynx-dev] 'File exists. Overwrite? (y/n)'

[Karen Lewellen]

Oh you are using a for append, not all.
I see.



On Wed, 4 May 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi Karen-and-All: An a would just append not over-write. Right now, given 
that choice, I say "no" then I think its control+g to cancel.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] 'File exists. Overwrite? (y/n)'

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi chime,
The problem with /a, speaking personally, is that this process wisely only 
works on a single file at a time.
I say wise because, sometimes being precise with content is very 
important.  Keeps one from making a mistake that might override critical 
files if that resonates.

Kare



On Mon, 2 May 2022, Chime Hart wrote:


Well, maybe best of both worlds, y/n/a for append.
Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] Why Won't this Site Work in LYNX?

[Karen Lewellen]

Interestingly enough that our site requires JavaScript statement, at least 
for  me personally, can often be wrong when using lynx.
Your point about wacg being  influenced by consultants is well 
taken..which is  disturbing because so much of it gets incorporated into 
public policy.

A11y is starting to follow suit.
speaking personally, until more individuals using adaptive technology start 
talking to more than their chosen choir, and start talking to the general 
population, the meet one adaptive technology user you have met them all 
standard will continue.
I mean there is a thread on list arguing about voiceover and safari 
testing, as in not   fitting their standards either.




On Wed, 4 May 2022, David Woolley wrote:


On 03/05/2022 01:15, Karen Lewellen wrote:



 The technical baseline clause in  at least some editions of WACG
 discourages that sort of thing, unless you are providing the tool in
 question.


WCAG also allows any technology for which support is widely available in 
mainstream browser, and even includes an AJAX mail client as an example 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-web-page-s>, which would be totally 
unusable in Lynx.  Simply stating that your page requires JavaScript is 
enough to, legally, exclude Lynx as a testing aid.


The rather convoluted description of what support needs to be available 
before a technology, such as Javascript, is acceptable, is in 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance#uc-accessibility-supported-definition-head>.


Lynx is unlikely to be considered mainstream, these days.

You need to remember that WCAG is specified by consultants and browser 
manufacturers, who are influenced by the "needs" of businesses, as well what 
may be good for elements of the public.  (It reminds me of the Covid debate 
on economy versus health.)

Re: [Lynx-dev] Why Won't this Site Work in LYNX?

[Karen Lewellen]

I have no idea what wget is chime, so cannot provide an opinion.
what I am wondering though is if l y n x  should expand the default user 
agent  options to help bypass issues of this kind?

Karen



On Mon, 2 May 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, thanks Karen, I've always had issues understanding links and elinks. 
Meanwhile, I did finally have some success the long way around. I ran wget 
with that url, changed the name from index.html.1 to gri.html. Then I ran 
rdrview -b lynx gri.html  which gave me a clear 52 lines of an article 
without any tool bars. The funny thing was that wget would even grab that 
story. Now, I am wondering if adding wget as an external in LYNX would help?

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] Why Won't this Site Work in LYNX?

[Karen Lewellen]

David,
How can anyone  meet a legal obligation by testing with a single tool like 
jaws?
The technical baseline clause in  at least some editions of WACG 
discourages that sort of thing, unless you are providing the tool  in 
question.
after all, major sites doing business across borders  would have a hard 
time using   Jaws alone as their basis.

and what about other populations who are equally entitled to access?
Karen



On Tue, 3 May 2022, David Woolley wrote:


On 03/05/2022 00:15, Chime Hart wrote:

 Since I really have little understanding of user agent strings, is their
 anything specific I can type in L Y N X to process this article


User agents have been a mess for a long time, although it looks like the 
original standard is beginning to be reinstated.


In the very early days of graphical browsers, sites used to discriminate 
against some browsers and as a result Internet Explorer started claiming to 
be Netscape and adding its real identity as a comment.  It looks like the 
latest versions still do that.


As such if you are up against browser discrimination, you just have to 
experiment, to work out the rules the site uses.  There is a database of them 
here: , which looks 
like it isn't Ajax based.


The other big problem for Lynx, is that many sites, probably most of the 
major sites, do not send the common browsers a document, but rather a program 
which loads data and formats it into the page.  You can sometimes recognize 
these on graphical browsers, either because you get a placeholder format, 
with grey blocks for notional text, before the actual text appears, or by the 
way that individual parts of the page fail independently.


Of the ones I've looked at in some detail, both ancestry.com and Nextdoor 
normally operate in this way.  The main reason they might create a simple 
text version is for search engines, not for end users. If you are very luck 
they may also consider text only browsers, but there is probably no 
commercial imperative for this, as they can generally meet their legal 
obligations by creating pages that work with Jaws and a graphical browser.


A lot more probably do this as well.  Maybe most of the well known sites; I 
haven't looked at how the typical small business site (the one page sites 
with sections that replace each other as you scroll through the page) work, 
when it comes to document mode fall back.


From what is going on under the hood on the site you are looking at, they 
have absolutely no interest in providing a static document.  The site is 
behaving like one that is there to attract people to the adverts.

Re: [Lynx-dev] Why Won't this Site Work in LYNX?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi chime,
The site does work when using links the chain,
Elinks as well.
If you truly want the file it can be saved in links the chain and then 
likely run in l y n X
granted, I did not seek the story itself, just visited the main page in 
links the chain.
When on content like an article, select the   escape key, then arrow down 
until you hear save formatted document.
select the enter key, you will either have a file name to remove, first or 
a blank.

save the file as
whatever.html
choosing the file name you wish.
then run lynx whatever.html,
which should give you a file in lynx that ou can save to something else.
does that resonate?
Karen



On Mon, 2 May 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Thank you David for your analysis. Since I really have little understanding 
of user agent strings, is their anything specific I can type in L Y N X to 
process this article, which I not only want to save the text of, but 
eventually explore what else is there? Thanks so much in advance

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] 'File exists. Overwrite? (y/n)'

[Karen Lewellen]

I on the other hand love love love this tool just as it is.
As  I manage information sometimes on the same subject, but from different 
sources, This lets me keep files I want to download later organized.
then there are the many times a week when  updating a Reading source, say 
a new  chapter of fanfiction.
I can overwrite the story  file title including the new chapter, which is 
better than my prior method of creating a file name that includes the 
chapter title.

One man's pleasure is another man's poison I dare say.



On Mon, 2 May 2022, russellb...@gmail.com wrote:


When I get this, I always say no, but that returns me to the
prompt to enter the name of the target file.  I have to hit ctrl-u to
clear it to get out.  I wish this prompt gave me the choice of
yes/no/cancel.  I *know* I can hit ctrl-g, but that still leaves me at
the save prompt.

russell bell

Re: [Lynx-dev] new search engine

[Karen Lewellen]

Actually, if I follow this thread, Luke is correct.
Duckduckgo is not owned..by anyone but duckduckgo.
Bing is a Microsoft creation.
To discover this, I searched in google actually, the phrase
duckduckgo bought by Microsoft?
Then instead of reading search results I chose the news option.
there are several stories regarding duckduckgo's recent  choice to join 
other  search engines like google and bing, in filtering Russian 
propaganda and  the reaction of duckduckgo users to the choice.
many articles reference bing as a different tool, distinguish it from 
duckduckgo and the like.

The ability to afford ads does not mean the company belongs to another.
karen



On Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Luke, Shellworld Support wrote:


On Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Jude DaShiell wrote:


If what I've read is correct,  duckduckgo got bought out by Microsoft so
it's now a bing extension.


That's a nice bomb to drop without any attribution.

"I don't know if it's true, but I heard...", has unjustly ruined many a
reputation.

Last year, the rumor was Google. I guess this year it's Microsoft.

https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/sources/
https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/company/ads-by-microsoft-on-duckduckgo-private-search/

Luke

[Lynx-dev] what is the Lynx equal for this command?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
Asking as there seemed to be more than one prospect.
I am on an order page, but for some reason not all of the fields are 
showing, as if I should scroll.  However, I am unsure which lynx command 
match's that concept, as if to scroll left?

Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] Handling sites that don't send content-type (was: lynx word bleeding?)

[Karen Lewellen]

Mercy chime,
I am going to remember this thread the next time someone suggests I tamper 
with  the lynx.cfg here.

Hope you find a way in, at least  there is still the lynx.old door as well.
Kare



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, Karen, I agree with you about possible differences in the files. I ran 
an exec tcsh  which is similar to re-logging in. I could try an unalias. My 
own machine is still having an issue with that site, even trying to change an 
option in lynx.cfg.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] Handling sites that don't send content-type (was: lynx word bleeding?)

[Karen Lewellen]

Chime,
I am talking about the lynx build here.
As Luke noted the lynx.cfg file is quite large and extensive, meaning your 
personal lynx.cfg file which is not the same as the lynx.cfg file for all 
shellworld users  is likely to  have differences.
Additionally,   as I understand it, the feature cannot be saved in the 
options menu.  No idea where you are making the change, but my personal 
test involves logging into shellworld itself with my own account, and using 
the services here, not an alias.  Did you log out entirely from your setup 
before trying again?


Karen



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, Karen, I was about to think you were correct. I tried switching an 
option in my LYNX to html, exited, and went back to that site, no 
changeThanks

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] Handling sites that don't send content-type (was: lynx word bleeding?)

[Karen Lewellen]

That is interesting Chime,
When I visited the link Luke provided
I reached the page just fine.
additionally, the option shows correctly in the options menu now too.
I wonder if this is due to your personal config not matching the universal 
one?

Karen



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, Karen-and-Luke, that radio tapes site has not changed for me on 
Shellworld, I still need to type lynx.old  But yes, I have had my own 
lynx.cfg since I joined Shellword. Certainly glad Karen's sites are working 
well now.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] Handling sites that don't send content-type (was: lynx word bleeding?)

[Karen Lewellen]

Well as a positive feather for Luke's efforts with  this lynx upgrade one 
benefit we now have is that the yahoo news site and at least for me 
Washington post site have active links again.

previously I would have to use the control-v feature to changing tracking.
Now the articles have active associated numbered links no change 
necessary.

Karen



On Wed, 9 Feb 2022, Luke, Shellworld Support wrote:


On Wed, 2 Feb 2022, Ian Collier wrote:


Extract from lynx.cfg:

.h2 PREFERRED_CONTENT_TYPE
# When doing a GET, lynx expects the server to provide a Content-Type, i.e.,
# the MIME name which tells it how to present data.  When that is missing
# lynx uses this value.
#PREFERRED_CONTENT_TYPE: text/plain


We did not have this section on Shellworld. It must have arrived
in an update to lynx.cfg that we didn't take for reasons of not scratching
existing configs.
Lynx.cfg is such a huge config file, that I wish there was an efficient
way to break it into a lynx.d style arrangement.

Anyway, after including an appropriately modified version of this section,
and compensating for the below bug, both our old and new versions of lynx
can handle the URL in question (https://www.radiotapes.com) from the version of 
Apache
that isn't sending content-type for some reason.


Note: I believe there shouldn't be a space between the colon and 'text'
in the lynx.cfg setting - at least it didn't work for me with a space
but did work without.  This means there is a bug either in the parser
or in the sample lynx.cfg which comes with Lynx.


I can confirm that bug, whichever it is.

Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi  Ian,
yes we have been here before.
Still, I doubt creating my own lynx.dfg file will  fix my greater issue, 
why  this new compile of lynx  locks up if Attaching a file, or sending an 
email  with an attachment in my basic gmail account now.
It also does not allow for some kinds of downloads in  that account 
either.
It is not gmail doing it, I get a 408  time out error, but can send things 
just fine using the older edition of lynx we have here.

Karen



On Thu, 3 Feb 2022, Ian Collier wrote:


On Wed, Feb 02, 2022 at 11:18:23PM -0500, Karen Lewellen wrote:

Ian you indicate that this cannot be saved on the options menu, meaning it
must  be corrected  where ever the compile or main lynx.cfg is stored?


That is correct; and also the lynx.cfg contains settings that dictate
whether options can be saved on the options page, so it is possible to
change that too.

I know we have been here before, but you can write a lynx.cfg file just for
your own account and run Lynx with the "-cfg FILENAME" option to use it.

imc

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

I was wondering  because it is marked as one of those that cannot be saved 
to  disc.




On Wed, 2 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi Karen-and-All: As always the LYNX options menu acts like it will save, 
even when checking that box on link4 "save options to disk" but in this case 
it did not save.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Yes chime, it is not there.
I am told by dreamhost that  it tends to be in a lynx.cfg that is 
stored elsewhere.

although it was I believe in their 2.8.9dev.16.

So I changed it in   shellworld 2.9.0dev.5, and it worked.
you were able to save the option?



On Wed, 2 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Well, I took a look in an options menu in an older LYNX on Shellworld, where 
that particular setting is not there at all. On my Debian system with a 
current LYNX, I can switch over to html-and-yes I can enjoy that page.

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Ian,



As Mouse says, this site isn't sending a Content-Type header.  Lynx
actually has an option for this, and so if Lynxes are treating
it differently it probably means the option differs between
environments.

Extract from lynx.cfg:

.h2 PREFERRED_CONTENT_TYPE
# When doing a GET, lynx expects the server to provide a Content-Type, i.e.,
# the MIME name which tells it how to present data.  When that is missing
# lynx uses this value.
#PREFERRED_CONTENT_TYPE: text/plain

You can set this within Lynx on the (o)ptions screen, though by default
it's not saved to disk.  You want to set it to text/html in order to
properly view the above page.


and this seems to be the issue.
Shellworld lynx 2.9.0dev.5
Has this as text/plain, not html.
Older copies of lynx here, and  the other shell example I can check  read 
the page just fine.
Ian you indicate that this cannot be saved on the options menu, meaning it 
must  be corrected  where ever the compile or main lynx.cfg is stored?


Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Chime,
I just visited your link using what is 2.9.0dev.5
and indeed it is all code.
Makes me wonder if there is a setting misconfigured between  prior lynx on 
shellworld and this new build.

Karen
..who wants to visit that site  for its content now too.



On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, Chime Hart wrote:

Hi All: I still use Shellworld, as well as my own Debian setup. Funny thing 
is I visit

www.radiotapes.com
On my machine I only see raw html. Meanwhile
with  an older LYNX on Shellworld, I see the site fine, I have no idea why 
these 2 versions are seeing this site so differently? Thanks so much in 
advance

Chime

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Thanks Travis,
One new element happens now when sending emails using this updated 
compiled Lynx  from my gmail account as well, or downloading items sent to 
me as attachments.

I do this several times a week, processing research, etc.
Now lynx either does not respond to the view as html link or the download 
link.  Or most unusually if sending an email with an attachment, I get a 
408 time out error.
Granted fortunately as has been the practice at shellworld an older lynx 
copy is present.

So, I can roll back and try to send or process the email that way.
still, there is something odd about the upgrade for that to happen in lynx 
now.

I do admit to a positive from this upgrade,
places like the Washington post, and yahoo news, no longer need me to 
either use control v for links to be active, or to turn of sending the 
user agent.

so, it is a mixed blessing I suppose.
Karen



On Tue, 1 Feb 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

Her screen reader is simply that, it doesn't do anything else, it's a screen 
reader, (just like almost all screen readers are). As for the problem with 
lynx, I suspect it happened when shellworld reinstalled their recent version 
of lynx.  As mentioned before, it was probably compiled with ncurses 
support, and that's particularly nice for sighted users, what with the colors 
and cursor tracking, and the like, but all of the features that make it so 
nice for sighted folks are usually the things that make it not so nice for 
screen readers.  On the other hand, there is probably a terminal setting 
that will prevent lynx from behaving that way.  It's been my experience that 
changing to ansi typically solves the problem, though vt100 (which is usually 
the default)works just fine in most cases, it's only when programs expect 
fancy terminals that things break.


Karen had nothing to do with this particular breakage.


On 2/1/2022 1:43 AM, Bela Lubkin wrote:

 Karen Lewellen wrote:

>  Honestly?
>  Well I must have an advantage using a DOS screen reading program arctic
>  business vision to come here, as I have never encountered the slight
>  character overlay I am getting now, and it does not show up everywhere
>  either.
>  the control-l solution is working fine though on those few moments.
>  Have never encountered the  page problem one  until  this particular DOS
>  computer which is much faster than any I have used previously with a
>  faster processor and almost a gig of  memory.
 You said this wasn't happening, and then it started happening.  So
 something changed to cause it.

 This faster 1-gig PC, how long ago did you switch to it?  Did the
 problem start at the same time?

 I don't anything about the Arctic screen reader you're using.  Is it
 truly a screen reader (does nothing else); or does it also handle the
 terminal emulation which collects the screens which it then reads?

 The issue you're having is entirely typical of when the software making
 the display using ESC sequences (here, Lynx via probably ncurses) is
 using a different terminal type definition than the software
 interpreting the ESC sequences (whatever terminal emulator you're using
 -- built into Arctic or separate).

 'using a different definition' can mean something like one things
 'VT100' while the other thinks 'ANSI'.  But even if the names are the
 *same*, there is no guarantee their interpretations of them are the
 same.  At this point in history, telling a piece of Unix-ish software
 that you have a 'vt100' probably produces fairly similar results on
 almost all systems.  But terminal emulators which claim to emulate
 'vt100' are all over the map.

 So, did you switch terminal emulators?  Upgrade versions?  Change which
 terminal type it is instructed to emulate?  If your terminal program
 settings got erased and you had to re-create them, you might have
 inadvertently changed it (by way of having set it to some non-default
 value in the past, and now it's reset back to default).

 To clarify some of the above tangle down to bare bones; to the thing I
 think is most likely to have happened:

 * If you changed anything about your terminal emulator -- different
 emulator, version update, reinstall, whatever -- you probably fell back
 to its default terminal type.  You need to make it match (in terms of
 compatibility, *not* merely name) with what Lynx thinks you're using.

 A particularly likely, common mismatch is if one thinks 'vt100' and the
 other thinks 'ansi', 'xterm', or 'linux'.  Those are all 'compatible
 enough' that Lynx will behave adequately well -- with some glitches like
 words left behind after a screen update.

 One way to approach it is: look at the emulator's list of possible
 emulations.  For each one, tell the emulator to use that; tell Lynx the
 same name; TEST.  So if the emulator supports 'vt52', tell it to use
 that, then set TERM=vt52 and run Lynx -- does it behave better or worse?
 Iterate through all the choices until you find a setting which 

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

What  changed is a lynx upgrade here at shellworld.



On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Bela Lubkin wrote:


Karen Lewellen wrote:


Honestly?
Well I must have an advantage using a DOS screen reading program arctic
business vision to come here, as I have never encountered the slight
character overlay I am getting now, and it does not show up everywhere
either.
the control-l solution is working fine though on those few moments.
Have never encountered the  page problem one  until  this particular DOS
computer which is much faster than any I have used previously with a
faster processor and almost a gig of  memory.


You said this wasn't happening, and then it started happening.  So
something changed to cause it.

This faster 1-gig PC, how long ago did you switch to it?  Did the
problem start at the same time?

I don't anything about the Arctic screen reader you're using.  Is it
truly a screen reader (does nothing else); or does it also handle the
terminal emulation which collects the screens which it then reads?

The issue you're having is entirely typical of when the software making
the display using ESC sequences (here, Lynx via probably ncurses) is
using a different terminal type definition than the software
interpreting the ESC sequences (whatever terminal emulator you're using
-- built into Arctic or separate).

'using a different definition' can mean something like one things
'VT100' while the other thinks 'ANSI'.  But even if the names are the
*same*, there is no guarantee their interpretations of them are the
same.  At this point in history, telling a piece of Unix-ish software
that you have a 'vt100' probably produces fairly similar results on
almost all systems.  But terminal emulators which claim to emulate
'vt100' are all over the map.

So, did you switch terminal emulators?  Upgrade versions?  Change which
terminal type it is instructed to emulate?  If your terminal program
settings got erased and you had to re-create them, you might have
inadvertently changed it (by way of having set it to some non-default
value in the past, and now it's reset back to default).

To clarify some of the above tangle down to bare bones; to the thing I
think is most likely to have happened:

* If you changed anything about your terminal emulator -- different
emulator, version update, reinstall, whatever -- you probably fell back
to its default terminal type.  You need to make it match (in terms of
compatibility, *not* merely name) with what Lynx thinks you're using.

A particularly likely, common mismatch is if one thinks 'vt100' and the
other thinks 'ansi', 'xterm', or 'linux'.  Those are all 'compatible
enough' that Lynx will behave adequately well -- with some glitches like
words left behind after a screen update.

One way to approach it is: look at the emulator's list of possible
emulations.  For each one, tell the emulator to use that; tell Lynx the
same name; TEST.  So if the emulator supports 'vt52', tell it to use
that, then set TERM=vt52 and run Lynx -- does it behave better or worse?
Iterate through all the choices until you find a setting which pairs up
well.  ('set TERM=vt52 and run Lynx' is itself a possible area of
confusion depending how accounts are set up on the system, your
familiarity with *ix shells, etc.)


Bela<

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Honestly?
Well I must have an advantage using a DOS screen reading program arctic 
business vision to come here, as I have never encountered the slight 
character overlay I am getting now, and it does not show up everywhere 
either.

the control-l solution is working fine though on those few moments.
Have never encountered the  page problem one  until  this particular DOS 
computer which is much faster than any I have used previously with a 
faster processor and almost a gig of  memory.   In my personal case
 it is  not that characters from the next page  blend, but that words from 
the prior page remain, which may be a buffer thing as I sometimes have to 
pull on the reigns a bit.

otherwise I miss part of a page.
shows that quality detailed screen readers created for lower graphics 
environments like the shell ones, may have an advantage.


the gmail thing for me did not mirror the one shared by mouse.
Last December google accessibility circulated a direct to basic html 
option which  I have bookmarked.
In fact the old one still works for me too, at least with my main  gmail 
account.


Karen


On Sun, 30 Jan 2022, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


On Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:


previously as in for all the years I have used lynx, if I  move to another
page, the contents of that page  is all I hear.
Now though I am getting  bleed over from the previous page, in some spots, as
if the content is still there.
its honestly weird, because it has never happened before, ever.


What's interesting, is that this has never happened to you before. It has
been happening to me for about 15 years, maybe more, in lynx. It
especially happens with remote connections (such as one to shellworld),
and not so much when using lynx on a local linux console.

The Control+L solution from Thorsten and Travis, to redraw the screen, is
pretty much the only way to deal with this if it's happening, unless you
can play with terminal emulation to fix it.

There is a secondary effect that happens with screen reading and lynx (or
really anything ncurses based): dropped/added letters/words.
This happens, as best as I can tell, when you press space to advance a
page, and some of the character positions on the next page, have the same
letters/words in them as were on the previous page.
In that case, Ncurses doesn't bother re-drawing those locations with the
new data, which would be the same as the old data. At least, that's what I
think is happening.
The screen reader, however, is only reading new data, so skips the
non-redrawn content, resulting in weird speech.

As a result of that one, which is far more common for me than the first
one, I now nearly always hit my "read screen" command, every time I move
to the next page. That causes the screen reader to start at the top, and
process the screen as if it was completely new.
Maybe a bit harder to do if you're using Windows terminal emulation, where
"the screen" is a somewhat different concept.

Alternatively, Control+L solves that one as well, since then every
character is re-drawn. Although screen readers, at least some of them, may
run into buffering issues if having a full page thrown at them in
character mode, so I don't recommend Control+L for either problem, without
also using a subsequent read screen or other reading command. In other
words, let the re-draw finish before trying to process it with speech,
don't rely on the re-draw to feed the speech.

Luke

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Travis,
This is fine information.
Lets me compare the current settings for lynx we have at shellworld with 
prior ones.
To be honest in my experience vt 100 has been the setting, but that might 
have changed for some reason.

Thanks,
Karen



On Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Travis Siegel wrote:

I know it's a hassle, but you can always use ctrl-L to redraw the screen, 
then it reads only the current screen as it redraws it. I've used this many 
times to solve the exact problem you're referring to.  I am not sure what 
exactly causes it, but I believe it's related to the vt100 vs. ansi terminal 
settings.  Sometimes I was able to fix it by changing my terminal type, 
sometimes not. You may be able to turn off color changes in the lynx cfg 
which may solve this problem as well.  There's apparently different method 
used to update the screen when ansi codes are used, as opposed to rewriting 
the whole screen when vt100 terminal emulation is used.


At least, that's been my experience over the years with any terminal program, 
not just lynx.



On 1/28/2022 1:02 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 Hi folks,
 This one is hard to describe, will make more sense if you are using lynx
 with speech of some kind.
 previously as in for all the years I have used lynx, if I  move to
 another page, the contents of that page  is all I hear.
 for example if in the basic html for gmail, choosing to read a message, or
 send one.
 all I will hear is what is supposed to be read.
 Now though I am getting  bleed over from the previous page, in some
 spots, as if the content is still there.
 its honestly weird, because it has never happened before, ever.
 A little concerning as well, since I can only assume the text is gone, but
 am unsure why the browser is still reading it.
 might this be a character set or display issue?
 Thanks,
 Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
Well...at least I am not imagining the problem.
Your description reminded me of the time when the bottom of a page kept 
content from a few pages back smiles.

I am going to try your control-l solution first.
Its not critical, just requiring me to listen more carefully, so a bit 
annoying.
Now, if  the  stuff shows up in a file, that will be an entirely different 
situation of course.

Thanks for the tip,
Oh,  anyone here use basic html for gmail with lynx?
If so, I may have a different question, again harder to explain as it is 
only happening there, and only   really recently.

Thanks again,
Karen



On Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Thorsten Glaser wrote:


Hi Karen,


if the content is still there.


I think I understand the problem, and I have hit it as well
on a visual display.

Basically, yes, when you scroll, sometimes previous content
is not erased if the new line is shorter than the old line.

This probably has to do with both the way lynx is compiled
(which termcap/curses/slang/etc. library it uses), the actual
terminal (emulator) in use (and how the $TERM variable is set),
and possibly the page content (I have seen this more often if
“funny” Unicode characters were used). Mismatching character
sets between the document and the locale and/or lynx config
are also a possible cause.

I’m sorry I cannot offer a general advice / fix, other than
noting that, when I notice the issue, I press ^L (Control-L)
to redraw the screen, and it goes away.

If you hit this again on a page whose content is not private,
maybe save that page (press V (uppercase v) then d (lowercase
d) to download it, confirm a filename) and then hand that file
to your support. Maybe they can reproduce the issue with the
file in question and the same terminal settings, and then they
can hopefully either find terminal/locale/lynx settings that
make the issue stop or recompile lynx with different libraries
until it’s fixed.

Good luck,
//mirabilos
--
22:59⎜ glaub ich termkit is kompliziert | glabe nicht das man
damit schneller arbeitet | reizüberflutung │ wie windows │ alles evil
zuviel bilder │ wie ein spiel | 23:00⎜ die meisten raffen auch
nicht mehr von windows | 23:01⎜ bilderbücher sind ja auch nich
wirklich verbreitet als erwachsenen literatur   ‣ who needs GUIs thus?

[Lynx-dev] lynx word bleeding?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
This one is hard to describe, will make more sense if you are using lynx 
with speech of some kind.
previously as in for all the years I have used lynx, if I  move to another 
page, the contents of that page  is all I hear.
for example if in the basic html for gmail, choosing to read a message, or 
send one.

all I will hear is what is supposed to be read.
Now though I am getting  bleed over from the previous page, in some spots, 
as if the content is still there.

its honestly weird, because it has never happened before, ever.
A little concerning as well, since I can only assume the text is gone, 
but am unsure why the browser is still reading it.

might this be a character set or display issue?
Thanks,
Karen

[Lynx-dev] ssl certificate upgrade process?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi folks,
Now that Luke has restored 2.8.9dev.16 to shellworld we are encountering 
the ssl certificate issue which began for I understand loads of people at 
the end of November.

I recall some discussion of that here.
What was the solution again?
Thanks,
Karen

Re: [Lynx-dev] Unexpected network read error when accessing https on Ubuntu 16.04.

[Karen Lewellen]

 One more point here.
The error I am experienced is not an unexpected network read error.
Instead, in Lynx editions, not  2.8.9dev.16, I get an error decompressing 
temporary file error.
I cannot duplicate Luke's problem, not when say following google searches 
using lynx 2.8.9dev16 which was our edition of lynx prior to a recent 
change.




On Fri, 14 Jan 2022, Luke at Shellworld Support wrote:


Hello

I am running an older Ubuntu system (16.04), serving some users with
unusual requirements in software and software versions. In other words,
upgrading would be a risky proposition.

Newer versions of lynx (seemingly anything after 2.8.9.dev16 inclusive)
will not open https URLs.

All the lib dependencies are exceeded, and earlier versions (such as
2.8.9.dev9) do work, but have started running into other errors that make
upgrading desirable..

I have been using stock binaries from Ubuntu or Debian mirrors, nothing
unusual.


# lynx -version
Lynx Version 2.8.9dev.16 (11 Jul 2017)
libwww-FM 2.14, SSL-MM 1.4.1, GNUTLS 3.5.17, ncurses 6.0.20160213(wide)
Built on linux-gnu.

# lynx -trace https://google.com
Looking up google.com
Making HTTPS connection to google.com
SSL error:The certificate is NOT trusted. The certificate issuer is
unknown. -Continue? (n)y
Verified connection to google.com (subj=google.com)
Certificate issued by: /C=US/O=Google Trust Services LLC/CN=GTS CA 1C3
Secure 256-bit TLS1.3 (ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) HTTP connection
Sending HTTP request.
HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted.
Can't Access `https://google.com/'
Alert!: Unable to access document.

lynx: Can't access startfile


From trace:
Looking up google.com
read_addrinfo length 140
...read_addrinfo 2 items
dump_addrinfo read_addrinfo:
   [1] family 2, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr 142.250.68.46 port 443
   [2] family 10, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr
2607:f8b0:4007:80f::200e port 443
dump_addrinfo Read from pipe:
   [1] family 2, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr 142.250.68.46 port 443
   [2] family 10, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr
2607:f8b0:4007:80f::200e port 443
dump_addrinfo HTGetAddrInfo:
   [1] family 2, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr 142.250.68.46 port 443
   [2] family 10, socktype 1, protocol 6 addr
2607:f8b0:4007:80f::200e port 443
Making HTTPS connection to google.com
TCP: Error 115 in `SOCKET_ERRNO' after call to this socket's first
connect() failed.
   Operation now in progress
TCP: Error 115 in `SOCKET_ERRNO' after call to this socket's first
select() failed.
   Operation now in progress
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: host
HTParse:  result:`google.com'
...called gnutls_server_name_set(google.com) ->0
HTLoadHTTP: SSL error:The certificate is NOT trusted. The certificate
is...-Continue?
Confirm: SSL error:The certificate is NOT trusted. The certificate
is...-Continue? (n) GETCH4: Got 0x79.
LYReadCmdKey(4) ->y (0x79)
- YES.
Validating CNs in '/CN=*.google.com'
Matching
   ssl_host  'google.com'
   cert_host '*.google.com'
Verified connection to google.com (subj=google.com)
Certificate issued by: /C=US/O=Google Trust Services LLC/CN=GTS CA 1C3
Secure 256-bit TLS1.3 (ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) HTTP connection
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: punc path
HTParse: (ABS)
HTParse:  result:`/'
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: host
HTParse:  result:`google.com'
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: punc path
HTParse: (ABS)
HTParse:  result:`/'
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: path
HTParse: (ABS)
HTParse:  result:`'
HTParse: aName:`https://google.com/'
  relatedName:`'
  want: host
HTParse:  result:`google.com'
HTTP: Sending Cookie2: $Version ="1"
HTTP: Sending Cookie:
NID=511=cQmEu1-zMBVYL1NjfE7e7p5tfvI-UPgvHMbxSBWfnJWiRrLuXVVhQ47-p-Y6rTLXajYfB9zJBygVBdcZyeGekhkeHZ9Ja33GUQtXgcB6pXtIL05zH5Mmny_phtPQ-1lPS...
Composing Authorization for google.com:443/
HTAASetup_lookup: No template matched `' (so probably not protected)
HTTP: Not sending authorization (yet).
Writing:
GET / HTTP/1.0\r
Host: google.com\r
Accept: text/html, text/plain, text/sgml, text/css, application/xhtml+xml,
*/*;q=0.01\r
Accept-Encoding: gzip, compress, bzip2\r
Accept-Language: en\r
User-Agent: Lynx/2.8.9dev.16 libwww-FM/2.14 SSL-MM/1.4.1 GNUTLS/3.5.17\r
Cookie2: $Version="1"\r
Cookie:
NID=511=cQmEu1-zMBVYL1NjfE7e7p5tfvI-UPgvHMbxSBWfnJWiRrLuXVVhQ47-p-Y6rTLXajYfB9zJBygVBdcZyeGekhkeHZ9Ja33GUQtXgcB6pXtIL05zH5Mmny_phtPQ-1lPS9FCwWKW16NIz9T...
\r
--
Sending HTTP request.
HTTP: WRITE delivered OK
HTTP request sent; waiting for response.
HTTP: Trying to read 1535
HTTP: Read 0
HTTP: Hit unexpected network read error; aborting connection; status
0:Resource temporarily unavailable, try again..

Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted.

HTAccess:  status=-1
Can't Access