Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[Guenter Milde]

On 2018-04-01, Joel Kulesza wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding:  --]

> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 8:45 AM, racoon  wrote:

>> On 31.03.2018 15:45, Joel Kulesza wrote:

>>> I regret that continually sending URLs about what "fn" means will not
>>> change my mind that (a) fn comes first as "function" and (b) foot->fn is an
>>> improvement.


>> Abbreviations are contextual and these links feel like selection bias to
>>> me.  Clearly, by just using two letters one can mean a lot of things (my
>>> own Google'd URL: https://www.abbreviations.com/FN).


>> Yes, I agree context is important. That is why I send the scholarly texts
>> which LyX is clearly related to.

>> Further, I wonder how translations of just the two letters would work.


>> I don't think English abbreviations on labels should be chosen based on
>> whether they work in other languages as well. It would also be a pretty
>> tricky aim given the variety in languages.


> True, but it is a complicating factor.

We already have different translations in different languages: German, e.g.
uses "Fußnote" == footnote, while Norsk and Swedish use fot == foot.


>> To the remark:

>>> Yes, "footnote" might be better than "foot". But I think there is reason
 to prefer a short labels since labels clutter the text. Hence, I suggest
 "fn" or, maybe, "fn.".

>>> I wonder why you think brevity is preferable to clarity.  I suspect
>>> "foot" was attempting to strike a balance.  I'd rather see no change than
>>> moving too hard in one direction (brevity) versus the other.

>> The argument was not based on brevity alone. (Though I still consider it a
>> virtue.) There was also the reason for "fn" being a common abbreviation for
>> footnote in texts while "foot" is none. Hence, also, my favoring "footnote"
>> over "foot".

> Understood.  I too favor footnote over foot but prefer foot over fn
> (consistent with prior behavior and less ambiguity even if abnormal).

The jury on abbreviating footnote is still out:


  The word footnote is not often abbreviated because it is not a very long
  word to begin with. However, it could be written as "ftnt" or"footnt".
  
  -- https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_abbreviation_of_the_word_'footnote'
  
  
  The abbreviation of "footnote" is "fn." Another variation which may be
  used is simply "n."
  
  -- https://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_abbreviation_for_footnote
  
  
  Footnotes abbreviated
  
  FN Footnotes
  Wikipedia
  
  FOOT Footnotes
  Wikipedia
  
  -- https://www.allacronyms.com/footnotes/abbreviated


>> Further, regarding context: because LaTeX can and is used with
>>> mathematics, "fn" could easily be misunderstood as function by a new user
>>> and not taken immediately as a footnote even by an experienced one if
>>> collapsable mathematical insets were to be used.

>> I don't think "fn" is a common abbreviation for function in mathematics.
>> At least I can't remember having come across it in my studies. Do you have
>> any evidence?


> In my undergraduate and graduate math and engineering courses, "fn" for
> function is common.  Further, the couple previous replies from Jose and
> Scott that "fn" first felt like "function" (and no replies to counter other
> than yours) are what lead me to this.

I'd say it may be common in engineering and maths for engineers but never
came across fn for function in physics and maths for physicists. This
matches the context given in https://www.allacronyms.com/function/abbreviated:

  All Acronyms has 10 abbreviations for Function
  Function abbreviated

Fun Function
Technology, Radio, Electronics
22
Func Function
Technology, SPACE, COSMOS
21
Funct Function
Medical
11
fn Function
Technology, Electronic engineering, Telecom
8
FNCTN Function
Science
6
FCN Function
Technology, Telecom, SPACE
3
FXN functionrecent
Medical, Medicine, Healthcare
1
FCT Function
SPACE, COSMOS, Study
0
f Function
Medical, Medicine, Health
0
FX Functionrecent

>> The only place I see "Fn" is right in front of me on my keyboard. There it
>> actually stands for "function", so that might be where the connection is
>> coming from. But it is not mathematical at all. Still the connection might
>> be made by enough people. I don't know that.


> Indeed, that's another good instance of fn = function that I hadn't thought
> of.


Günter

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 8:45 AM, racoon  wrote:

> On 31.03.2018 15:45, Joel Kulesza wrote:
>
>> I regret that continually sending URLs about what "fn" means will not
>> change my mind that (a) fn comes first as "function" and (b) foot->fn is an
>> improvement.
>>
>
> Abbreviations are contextual and these links feel like selection bias to
>> me.  Clearly, by just using two letters one can mean a lot of things (my
>> own Google'd URL: https://www.abbreviations.com/FN).
>>
>
> Yes, I agree context is important. That is why I send the scholarly texts
> which LyX is clearly related to.
>
> Further, I wonder how translations of just the two letters would work.
>>
>
> I don't think English abbreviations on labels should be chosen based on
> whether they work in other languages as well. It would also be a pretty
> tricky aim given the variety in languages.


True, but it is a complicating factor.


> To the remark:
>>
>> Yes, "footnote" might be better than "foot". But I think there is reason
>>> to prefer a short labels since labels clutter the text. Hence, I suggest
>>> "fn" or, maybe, "fn.".
>>>
>>
>> I wonder why you think brevity is preferable to clarity.  I suspect
>> "foot" was attempting to strike a balance.  I'd rather see no change than
>> moving too hard in one direction (brevity) versus the other.
>>
>
> The argument was not based on brevity alone. (Though I still consider it a
> virtue.) There was also the reason for "fn" being a common abbreviation for
> footnote in texts while "foot" is none. Hence, also, my favoring "footnote"
> over "foot".


Understood.  I too favor footnote over foot but prefer foot over fn
(consistent with prior behavior and less ambiguity even if abnormal).


> Further, regarding context: because LaTeX can and is used with
>> mathematics, "fn" could easily be misunderstood as function by a new user
>> and not taken immediately as a footnote even by an experienced one if
>> collapsable mathematical insets were to be used.
>>
> I don't think "fn" is a common abbreviation for function in mathematics.
> At least I can't remember having come across it in my studies. Do you have
> any evidence?
>

In my undergraduate and graduate math and engineering courses, "fn" for
function is common.  Further, the couple previous replies from Jose and
Scott that "fn" first felt like "function" (and no replies to counter other
than yours) are what lead me to this.


> The only place I see "Fn" is right in front of me on my keyboard. There it
> actually stands for "function", so that might be where the connection is
> coming from. But it is not mathematical at all. Still the connection might
> be made by enough people. I don't know that.
>

Indeed, that's another good instance of fn = function that I hadn't thought
of.


> Daniel
>
> P.S. Said in jest: it's interesting to have a conversation with someone on
>> how to properly name/identify something who goes by the handle "racoon".  I
>> imagine a character from Guardians of the Galaxy on the far end of this
>> email (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Raccoon).
>>
> I am just too lazy to change my sender address. Notice the addition "c"
> though. Two more tries. :)
>

I thought maybe you eliminated the extra "c" for brevity. ;-)

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 15:45, Joel Kulesza wrote:
I regret that continually sending URLs about what "fn" means will not 
change my mind that (a) fn comes first as "function" and (b) foot->fn is 
an improvement.


Abbreviations are contextual and these links feel like selection bias to 
me.  Clearly, by just using two letters one can mean a lot of things (my 
own Google'd URL: https://www.abbreviations.com/FN). 


Yes, I agree context is important. That is why I send the scholarly 
texts which LyX is clearly related to.


Further, I wonder 
how translations of just the two letters would work.


I don't think English abbreviations on labels should be chosen based on 
whether they work in other languages as well. It would also be a pretty 
tricky aim given the variety in languages.



To the remark:


Yes, "footnote" might be better than "foot". But I think there is reason to prefer a short labels 
since labels clutter the text. Hence, I suggest "fn" or, maybe, "fn.".


I wonder why you think brevity is preferable to clarity.  I suspect 
"foot" was attempting to strike a balance.  I'd rather see no change 
than moving too hard in one direction (brevity) versus the other.  


The argument was not based on brevity alone. (Though I still consider it 
a virtue.) There was also the reason for "fn" being a common 
abbreviation for footnote in texts while "foot" is none. Hence, also, my 
favoring "footnote" over "foot".


Further, regarding context: because LaTeX can and is used with 
mathematics, "fn" could easily be misunderstood as function by a new 
user and not taken immediately as a footnote even by an experienced one 
if collapsable mathematical insets were to be used.
I don't think "fn" is a common abbreviation for function in mathematics. 
At least I can't remember having come across it in my studies. Do you 
have any evidence?


The only place I see "Fn" is right in front of me on my keyboard. There 
it actually stands for "function", so that might be where the connection 
is coming from. But it is not mathematical at all. Still the connection 
might be made by enough people. I don't know that.


Daniel


P.S. Said in jest: it's interesting to have a conversation with someone on how to 
properly name/identify something who goes by the handle "racoon".  I imagine a 
character from Guardians of the Galaxy on the far end of this email 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Raccoon).
I am just too lazy to change my sender address. Notice the addition "c" 
though. Two more tries. :)

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 4:41 AM, racoon  wrote:

> On 31.03.2018 12:34, racoon wrote:
>
>> On 31.03.2018 12:33, racoon wrote:
>>
>>> On 31.03.2018 12:23, racoon wrote:
>>>
 On 31.03.2018 00:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
>>> label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
>>> much more common abbreviation than the former.
>>>
>>
>> I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)
>>
>
> My first thought was of "function" also.
>

 Come on, there are so much more FUN abbreviations for function. ;)

 Here is some evidence that the abbreviation fn is actually used for
 footnotes:

 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C5=%22s
 ee+fn%22=

>>>
>>> Wikipedia uses the fn abbreviation in the code:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_embe
>>> dding_references
>>>
>>
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fn
>>
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fn
>
> https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/fn.
>
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fn
>
> https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/dictionaries-thesaur
> uses-pictures-and-press-releases/fn
>
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-correct-abbreviation-for-f
> ootnote?share=1


I regret that continually sending URLs about what "fn" means will not
change my mind that (a) fn comes first as "function" and (b) foot->fn is an
improvement.

Abbreviations are contextual and these links feel like selection bias to
me.  Clearly, by just using two letters one can mean a lot of things (my
own Google'd URL: https://www.abbreviations.com/FN).  Further, I wonder how
translations of just the two letters would work.

To the remark:

> Yes, "footnote" might be better than "foot". But I think there is reason
to prefer a short labels since labels clutter the text. Hence, I suggest
"fn" or, maybe, "fn.".

I wonder why you think brevity is preferable to clarity.  I suspect "foot"
was attempting to strike a balance.  I'd rather see no change than moving
too hard in one direction (brevity) versus the other.  Further, regarding
context: because LaTeX can and is used with mathematics, "fn" could easily
be misunderstood as function by a new user and not taken immediately as a
footnote even by an experienced one if collapsable mathematical insets were
to be used.

Regarding cluttering the text: does a label 2 characters wide save that
much versus 4, and do 8 characters really clutter that much more
significantly?

My suggestion if this is truly a bother, set up some way to have it user
configured rather than forcing the identifier upon him/her if Riki's
suggestion (https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11092#comment:1) isn't
satisfactory.

Bottom line: I'd rather see no change than one that could lead to increased
confusion and translation issues.

Thanks,
Joel

P.S. Said in jest: it's interesting to have a conversation with someone on
how to properly name/identify something who goes by the handle "racoon".  I
imagine a character from Guardians of the Galaxy on the far end of this
email (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Raccoon).

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 12:34, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 12:33, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 12:23, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 00:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:

I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
much more common abbreviation than the former.


I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)


My first thought was of "function" also.


Come on, there are so much more FUN abbreviations for function. ;)

Here is some evidence that the abbreviation fn is actually used for 
footnotes:


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C5=%22see+fn%22= 



Wikipedia uses the fn abbreviation in the code:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_embedding_references 



https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fn


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fn

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/fn.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fn

https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/fn

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-correct-abbreviation-for-footnote?share=1

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 12:33, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 12:23, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 00:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:

I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
much more common abbreviation than the former.


I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)


My first thought was of "function" also.


Come on, there are so much more FUN abbreviations for function. ;)

Here is some evidence that the abbreviation fn is actually used for 
footnotes:


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C5=%22see+fn%22= 



Wikipedia uses the fn abbreviation in the code:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_embedding_references 


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fn

Daniel

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 12:23, racoon wrote:

On 31.03.2018 00:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:

I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
much more common abbreviation than the former.


I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)


My first thought was of "function" also.


Come on, there are so much more FUN abbreviations for function. ;)

Here is some evidence that the abbreviation fn is actually used for 
footnotes:


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C5=%22see+fn%22=


Wikipedia uses the fn abbreviation in the code:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Footnotes#Footnotes:_embedding_references

Daniel

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 01:30, Joel Kulesza wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Scott Kostyshak > wrote:


On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52  WEST racoon 
wrote:
> > I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
> > label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
> > much more common abbreviation than the former.
>
> I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)

My first thought was of "function" also.


"fn" is also function in my mind.  Is "foot" too verbose?  For clarity, 
why not "footnote"?


Yes, "footnote" might be better than "foot". But I think there is reason 
to prefer a short labels since labels clutter the text. Hence, I suggest 
"fn" or, maybe, "fn.".


Daniel

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[racoon]

On 31.03.2018 00:03, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:

I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
much more common abbreviation than the former.


I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)


My first thought was of "function" also.


Come on, there are so much more FUN abbreviations for function. ;)

Here is some evidence that the abbreviation fn is actually used for 
footnotes:


https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en_sdt=0%2C5=%22see+fn%22=

Daniel

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[Joel Kulesza]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:
> > > I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
> > > label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
> > > much more common abbreviation than the former.
> >
> > I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)
>
> My first thought was of "function" also.


"fn" is also function in my mind.  Is "foot" too verbose?  For clarity, why
not "footnote"?

Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 06:00:06PM +, José Abílio Matos wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:
> > I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
> > label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
> > much more common abbreviation than the former.
> 
> I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)

My first thought was of "function" also.

Scott


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Re: Poll: change "foot x" too "fn x"

[José Abílio Matos]

On Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20.26.52 WEST racoon wrote:
> I'd like to get your take on an enhancement request for changing the
> label for footnotes from "foot x" too "fn x". I think the latter is a
> much more common abbreviation than the former.

I agree but for me fn remembers FuNction. :-)

> https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/11092#comment:2
> 
> (Probably someone will tell me that it is actually from Latin or so. :) )

You know that it is not. The word in latin for foot it is "pes" (thus the name 
for the 
console version of football - the real one btw). :-)

-- 
José Abílio