Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
On 02. sep. 2011 02:45, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: [...] I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not previewed on the screen. External material is not necessarily images. The spreadsheet inset is converted to a longtable, for example. A longtable may get broken up over several pages, and location of the breaks depends on where the previous pagebreak (in the document) happens. As we all know, LyX doesn't break the document into pages in advance. Helge Hafting
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: Il 31/08/2011 21:19, Georg Baum ha scritto: This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! which bug number ? Or, what to exactly search for in the database ? I searched now and did not find it, so probably my memory was wrong. that's also my feeling: external material seems more generic than graphics, and after all each graphics may be handled via the RasterImage external material, or probably a variation of it that merges together at least the RasterImage, Dia and XFig external material types (or the other way round, i.e., each different file type into its own external material kind -- which one is best?). IMHO one template per file type is overkill. There should be as little templates as possible, and each template should handle a group of file types that have something in common. The RasterImage is a good example. A similar VectorImage template for generic vector images would also be useful. I believe that the Dia template is in fact a generic vector image template (or could be changed to be one). Only programs that support inline LaTeX and/or produce more than one file like XFig need a dedicated template I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not previewed on the screen. Which templates? Georg
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
On 02. sep. 2011 02:45, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: [...] I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not previewed on the screen. External material is not necessarily images. The spreadsheet inset is converted to a longtable, for example. A longtable may get broken up over several pages, and location of the breaks depends on where the previous pagebreak (in the document) happens. As we all know, LyX doesn't break the document into pages in advance. Helge Hafting
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > Il 31/08/2011 21:19, Georg Baum ha scritto: >> This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at >> some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external >> inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry >> for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! > which bug number ? Or, what to exactly search for in the database ? I searched now and did not find it, so probably my memory was wrong. > that's also my feeling: external material seems more generic than > graphics, and after all each graphics may be handled via the RasterImage > external material, or probably a variation of it that merges together at > least the RasterImage, Dia and XFig external material types (or the > other way round, i.e., each different file type into its own external > material kind -- which one is best?). IMHO one template per file type is overkill. There should be as little templates as possible, and each template should handle a group of file types that have something in common. The RasterImage is a good example. A similar VectorImage template for generic vector images would also be useful. I believe that the Dia template is in fact a generic vector image template (or could be changed to be one). Only programs that support inline LaTeX and/or produce more than one file like XFig need a dedicated template > I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not > previewed on the screen. Which templates? Georg
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 21:19, Georg Baum ha scritto: This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! which bug number ? Or, what to exactly search for in the database ? Please don't give up the generality of the external inset. If I would do the conversion I would remove the graphics inset completely, write some lyx2lyx to convert graphics insets to external insets, and then improve the user interface of the external inset, possibly using some ideas from the graphics inset. that's also my feeling: external material seems more generic than graphics, and after all each graphics may be handled via the RasterImage external material, or probably a variation of it that merges together at least the RasterImage, Dia and XFig external material types (or the other way round, i.e., each different file type into its own external material kind -- which one is best?). I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not previewed on the screen. T.
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 21:19, Georg Baum ha scritto: This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! which bug number ? Or, what to exactly search for in the database ? Please don't give up the generality of the external inset. If I would do the conversion I would remove the graphics inset completely, write some lyx2lyx to convert graphics insets to external insets, and then improve the user interface of the external inset, possibly using some ideas from the graphics inset. that's also my feeling: external material seems more generic than graphics, and after all each graphics may be handled via the RasterImage external material, or probably a variation of it that merges together at least the RasterImage, Dia and XFig external material types (or the other way round, i.e., each different file type into its own external material kind -- which one is best?). I'm not sure why some of the external material contents are not previewed on the screen. T.
merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? Tommaso, were you working on achieving this? Where can I find your latest patch? Thanks, Julien
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? On the contrary, I'd like to encourage you on this. Jürgen
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? i'm not sure what exactly you have in mind. - ditching the whole external material stuff? what will be done with non graphics templates? - or just moving some graphics format from external to internal? there was some sense in distinguishing these in the sense that for external material we need some specialized 3rd party app, while the other we know internally (either by wt or by imagemagick which is mandatory part). pavel
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 16:37, Julien Rioux ha scritto: No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. Hello, my last patch was attached to #5962: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5962 http://www.lyx.org/trac/attachment/ticket/5962/lyx-create-external-material-v2.patch It was not at all a merge of the two, but merely a single patch addressing the same issue both in the external material and in the graphics insertion dialogs (i.e., a new Edit/Create button -- even though it doesn't behave exactly in the same way -- I wanted to keep working on it but I couldn't find further time for that). My last thoughts on this were along the line that, assuming it is impossible to do an actual merge of the 2 functionalities because of the too big impact on the current code (not to mention the file format), especially compared to my availability of time, then I would just replicate what I need in both of them (the Edit/Create button, which also allows for automatic creation of the file by copying an empty sample, when needed). T.
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 14:17, Julien Rioux ha scritto: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? Tommaso, were you working on achieving this? Where can I find your latest patch? I forgot to mention the wiki note: http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/CreateFromEmptySample Bye, T.
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
On 31/08/2011 3:25 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: Julien Rioux wrote: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? i'm not sure what exactly you have in mind. - ditching the whole external material stuff? what will be done with non graphics templates? - or just moving some graphics format from external to internal? there was some sense in distinguishing these in the sense that for external material we need some specialized 3rd party app, while the other we know internally (either by wt or by imagemagick which is mandatory part). pavel No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. See this post by Tommaso: http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg170264.html For myself, I came to the same interpretation as Tommaso regarding the differences between external template and graphics, namely that in one case LyX creates only latex code to be processed by latex, and in the other case LyX generates an image in the correct format for includegraphics. The idea that you bring forward to distinguish these two, internal vs. 3rd party, is new to me. I must say that as a user I did not understand this distinction. -- Julien
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, can you name which particular templates you have in mind? I must say that as a user I did not understand this distinction. if you install lyx you get imagemagick automatically - either as part of installer (windows) or as compulsory dependency (linux); (not sure how is this done in mac). if you push some .dia/.xfig diagram you need something additional to be installed for you .lyx file to work. it might not even work on other archs (is xfig for win, is installed dia properly detected in win?). so having it under external material has the advantage that you signalize user that 1) we know such format at all 2) he is entering more dangerous area as far as exchanging .lyx document with other people is concerned. pavel
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: On 31/08/2011 3:25 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: Julien Rioux wrote: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. See this post by Tommaso: http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg170264.html For myself, I came to the same interpretation as Tommaso regarding the differences between external template and graphics, namely that in one case LyX creates only latex code to be processed by latex, and in the other case LyX generates an image in the correct format for includegraphics. No, that was not the idea behind the external inset. The idea was to be able to include _any_ material, and make it user configurable. This could be some LaTeX code (as e.g. for the GNumeric template), or it could be an image (or movie!) in any format that the used LaTeX flavour understands. Therefore, the graphics inset can be viewed as a simplified version of the external inset, offering only a subset of the features. IIRC there was one single feature of the graphics inset that was not supported by the external inset, but I can't remember which one. Maybe it was the don't uncompress button, but since this is gone anyway it does not matter anymore. Please don't give up the generality of the external inset. If I would do the conversion I would remove the graphics inset completely, write some lyx2lyx to convert graphics insets to external insets, and then improve the user interface of the external inset, possibly using some ideas from the graphics inset. The idea that you bring forward to distinguish these two, internal vs. 3rd party, is new to me. I must say that as a user I did not understand this distinction. Me neither. Georg
merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? Tommaso, were you working on achieving this? Where can I find your latest patch? Thanks, Julien
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: > Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? On the contrary, I'd like to encourage you on this. Jürgen
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: > Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? i'm not sure what exactly you have in mind. - ditching the whole external material stuff? what will be done with non graphics templates? - or just moving some graphics format from external to "internal"? there was some sense in distinguishing these in the sense that for external material we need some specialized 3rd party app, while the other we know internally (either by wt or by imagemagick which is mandatory part). pavel
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 16:37, Julien Rioux ha scritto: No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. Hello, my last patch was attached to #5962: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5962 http://www.lyx.org/trac/attachment/ticket/5962/lyx-create-external-material-v2.patch It was not at all a merge of the two, but merely a single patch addressing the same issue both in the external material and in the graphics insertion dialogs (i.e., a new Edit/Create button -- even though it doesn't behave exactly in the same way -- I wanted to keep working on it but I couldn't find further time for that). My last thoughts on this were along the line that, assuming it is impossible to do an actual merge of the 2 functionalities because of the too big impact on the current code (not to mention the file format), especially compared to my availability of time, then I would just replicate what I need in both of them (the Edit/Create button, which also allows for automatic creation of the file by copying an empty sample, when needed). T.
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Il 31/08/2011 14:17, Julien Rioux ha scritto: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? Tommaso, were you working on achieving this? Where can I find your latest patch? I forgot to mention the wiki note: http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/CreateFromEmptySample Bye, T.
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
On 31/08/2011 3:25 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: Julien Rioux wrote: Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? i'm not sure what exactly you have in mind. - ditching the whole external material stuff? what will be done with non graphics templates? - or just moving some graphics format from external to "internal"? there was some sense in distinguishing these in the sense that for external material we need some specialized 3rd party app, while the other we know internally (either by wt or by imagemagick which is mandatory part). pavel No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. See this post by Tommaso: http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg170264.html For myself, I came to the same interpretation as Tommaso regarding the differences between external template and graphics, namely that in one case LyX creates only latex code to be processed by latex, and in the other case LyX generates an image in the correct format for includegraphics. The idea that you bring forward to distinguish these two, internal vs. 3rd party, is new to me. I must say that as a user I did not understand this distinction. -- Julien
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: > No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really > graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, can you name which particular templates you have in mind? > I must say that as a user I did not understand this distinction. if you install lyx you get imagemagick automatically - either as part of installer (windows) or as compulsory dependency (linux); (not sure how is this done in mac). if you push some .dia/.xfig diagram you need something additional to be installed for you .lyx file to work. it might not even work on other archs (is xfig for win, is installed dia properly detected in win?). so having it under external material has the advantage that you signalize user that 1) we know such format at all 2) he is entering more dangerous area as far as exchanging .lyx document with other people is concerned. pavel
Re: merging of external material and graphics interfaces
Julien Rioux wrote: > On 31/08/2011 3:25 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: >> Julien Rioux wrote: >>> Is anybody working on this? Any strong discouraging opinions? This plan exists for ages. The graphics inset even was already ditched at some point in time, but it got reintroduced later, because the external inset did not work that well back then. IIRC there is also a bug entry for that. You will be a hero if you finally manage to do this! > No, not ditching it completely. But some external templates are really > graphic formats and it's confusing to have them appear elsewhere. Also, > chunks of the user interface are similar and could be merged. > See this post by Tommaso: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg170264.html > > For myself, I came to the same interpretation as Tommaso regarding the > differences between external template and graphics, namely that in one > case LyX creates only latex code to be processed by latex, and in the > other case LyX generates an image in the correct format for > includegraphics. No, that was not the idea behind the external inset. The idea was to be able to include _any_ material, and make it user configurable. This could be some LaTeX code (as e.g. for the GNumeric template), or it could be an image (or movie!) in any format that the used LaTeX flavour understands. Therefore, the graphics inset can be viewed as a simplified version of the external inset, offering only a subset of the features. IIRC there was one single feature of the graphics inset that was not supported by the external inset, but I can't remember which one. Maybe it was the "don't uncompress" button, but since this is gone anyway it does not matter anymore. Please don't give up the generality of the external inset. If I would do the conversion I would remove the graphics inset completely, write some lyx2lyx to convert graphics insets to external insets, and then improve the user interface of the external inset, possibly using some ideas from the graphics inset. > The idea that you bring forward to distinguish these two, internal vs. > 3rd party, is new to me. I must say that as a user I did not understand > this distinction. Me neither. Georg
