Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon wrote: The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Warning: My knowledge of font shenanigans is limited. That said, I suspect the Illustrator messages are a reflection on whatever program you used to create the EPS files. Like PDF, EPS allows you to embed fonts in the document. I have some EPS files generated by Mathematica. They use a mix of Courier (not embedded) and Mathematic-proprietary fonts (embedded). If the program displaying the EPS file can't find a font used in it, it tries to make a best-guess substitution. I know with PDF that this can sometimes produce some ugly results. I doubt it explains why you're getting an empty box when displaying from LyX, though. Is the ImageMagick convert program on your system command path (meaning you ran 'convert' without having to specify a path to it)? If not, it's likely LyX can't find it when the time comes. Assuming it is on the command path ... Try View - PDF (pdflatex) and take a peek inside the temp directory LyX is using. Tools - Preferences - Paths - Temporary directory will point you to its parent. Usually on XP it's C:\Documents and Settings\you\Local Settings\Temp\lyx_something\lyx_tmpbufsome_number\. There should be a copy of your EPS file sitting there, with the name mangled to include the absolute path to it. Alongside it should be a PDF file (the output from IM's convert) with the same mangled name. Are they both there and, if so, does the PDF version contain an image? /Paul PS: I doubt it's related to your problem, but I do recommend upgrading to the latest LyX version.
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I went ahead and tried View - PDF (ps2pdf) as well as View - PDF (dvipdfm), and both of these approaches yield only a single blank page of output in the PDF. When I build via View - PDF (pdflatex) the PDF files that are created in the Lyx Temp directory only have an empty bounding box, so something is being corrupted in the conversion. When I type convert I do not have to specify the path. Though I do notice that the PATH variable has the most recent ImageMagick location listed first (6.5.9), followed by an older ImageMagick install (6.2.9). Could this cause any problems? Though I was still seeing the same error with the 6.2.9 ImageMagick version, so maybe not??? Lastly, I looked at the *.log output in the Lyx Temp directory, and the following warning message is showing up for the EPS to PDF conversions: Package pdftex.def Warning: Option `bb' does not make sense, (pdftex.def)using `viewport' instead on input line 1230. 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_10_Fig ures_slip_scale.pdf, id=164, 614.295pt x 794.97pt File: 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_1 0_Figures_slip_scale.pdf Graphic file (type pdf) use 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_10 _Figures_slip_scale.pdf I did download the latest version Lyx 1.6.5, but ended up seeing the same behavior. Though there is an issue in the installation where the installer isn't able to write a file, and I tell it to simply ignore the error and proceed. The details are earlier in this thread. This applies to version 1.5.7 that is currently installed as well as 1.6.5. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Am 15.02.2010 19:30, schrieb Todd Salamon: I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. This is most probably the reason. Before you proceed fiddling around in your system to find the misconfiguration, I recommend to 1. uninstall LyX _completely_ 2. uninstall MikteX 2.5 also _completely_ (MiKTeX 2.5 is too old and thus not supported by the MiKTeX developer) 3. uninstall Imagemagick (if installed) 4. uninstall Ghostscript (if installed) 5. open an Interent connection 6. reinstall LyX 1.6.5 using the complete version of this installer: http://wiki.lyx.org/Windows/LyXWinInstaller This will install MiKTeX 2.8 and also all LaTeX-packages needed by LyX. It also installs an up-to-date image manipulation system (Ghostscript, ImageMagick, etc.). regards Uwe
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I installed Lyx 1.6.5 and MiKTeX 2.8 and this has fixed the problem. One note: the Lyx/MiKTeX install didn't work unless I uninstalled Adobe Acrobat Reader, restarted, installed Lyx/MiKTeX and then re-installed Acrobat Reader. Thanks for the suggestion Uwe. Regards, Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon wrote: The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Warning: My knowledge of font shenanigans is limited. That said, I suspect the Illustrator messages are a reflection on whatever program you used to create the EPS files. Like PDF, EPS allows you to embed fonts in the document. I have some EPS files generated by Mathematica. They use a mix of Courier (not embedded) and Mathematic-proprietary fonts (embedded). If the program displaying the EPS file can't find a font used in it, it tries to make a best-guess substitution. I know with PDF that this can sometimes produce some ugly results. I doubt it explains why you're getting an empty box when displaying from LyX, though. Is the ImageMagick convert program on your system command path (meaning you ran 'convert' without having to specify a path to it)? If not, it's likely LyX can't find it when the time comes. Assuming it is on the command path ... Try View - PDF (pdflatex) and take a peek inside the temp directory LyX is using. Tools - Preferences - Paths - Temporary directory will point you to its parent. Usually on XP it's C:\Documents and Settings\you\Local Settings\Temp\lyx_something\lyx_tmpbufsome_number\. There should be a copy of your EPS file sitting there, with the name mangled to include the absolute path to it. Alongside it should be a PDF file (the output from IM's convert) with the same mangled name. Are they both there and, if so, does the PDF version contain an image? /Paul PS: I doubt it's related to your problem, but I do recommend upgrading to the latest LyX version.
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I went ahead and tried View - PDF (ps2pdf) as well as View - PDF (dvipdfm), and both of these approaches yield only a single blank page of output in the PDF. When I build via View - PDF (pdflatex) the PDF files that are created in the Lyx Temp directory only have an empty bounding box, so something is being corrupted in the conversion. When I type convert I do not have to specify the path. Though I do notice that the PATH variable has the most recent ImageMagick location listed first (6.5.9), followed by an older ImageMagick install (6.2.9). Could this cause any problems? Though I was still seeing the same error with the 6.2.9 ImageMagick version, so maybe not??? Lastly, I looked at the *.log output in the Lyx Temp directory, and the following warning message is showing up for the EPS to PDF conversions: Package pdftex.def Warning: Option `bb' does not make sense, (pdftex.def)using `viewport' instead on input line 1230. 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_10_Fig ures_slip_scale.pdf, id=164, 614.295pt x 794.97pt File: 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_1 0_Figures_slip_scale.pdf Graphic file (type pdf) use 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_10 _Figures_slip_scale.pdf I did download the latest version Lyx 1.6.5, but ended up seeing the same behavior. Though there is an issue in the installation where the installer isn't able to write a file, and I tell it to simply ignore the error and proceed. The details are earlier in this thread. This applies to version 1.5.7 that is currently installed as well as 1.6.5. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Am 15.02.2010 19:30, schrieb Todd Salamon: I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. This is most probably the reason. Before you proceed fiddling around in your system to find the misconfiguration, I recommend to 1. uninstall LyX _completely_ 2. uninstall MikteX 2.5 also _completely_ (MiKTeX 2.5 is too old and thus not supported by the MiKTeX developer) 3. uninstall Imagemagick (if installed) 4. uninstall Ghostscript (if installed) 5. open an Interent connection 6. reinstall LyX 1.6.5 using the complete version of this installer: http://wiki.lyx.org/Windows/LyXWinInstaller This will install MiKTeX 2.8 and also all LaTeX-packages needed by LyX. It also installs an up-to-date image manipulation system (Ghostscript, ImageMagick, etc.). regards Uwe
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I installed Lyx 1.6.5 and MiKTeX 2.8 and this has fixed the problem. One note: the Lyx/MiKTeX install didn't work unless I uninstalled Adobe Acrobat Reader, restarted, installed Lyx/MiKTeX and then re-installed Acrobat Reader. Thanks for the suggestion Uwe. Regards, Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon wrote: The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Warning: My knowledge of font shenanigans is limited. That said, I suspect the Illustrator messages are a reflection on whatever program you used to create the EPS files. Like PDF, EPS allows you to embed fonts in the document. I have some EPS files generated by Mathematica. They use a mix of Courier (not embedded) and Mathematic-proprietary fonts (embedded). If the program displaying the EPS file can't find a font used in it, it tries to make a best-guess substitution. I know with PDF that this can sometimes produce some ugly results. I doubt it explains why you're getting an empty box when displaying from LyX, though. Is the ImageMagick convert program on your system command path (meaning you ran 'convert' without having to specify a path to it)? If not, it's likely LyX can't find it when the time comes. Assuming it is on the command path ... Try View -> PDF (pdflatex) and take a peek inside the temp directory LyX is using. Tools -> Preferences -> Paths -> Temporary directory will point you to its parent. Usually on XP it's C:\Documents and Settings\\Local Settings\Temp\lyx_\lyx_tmpbuf\. There should be a copy of your EPS file sitting there, with the name mangled to include the absolute path to it. Alongside it should be a PDF file (the output from IM's convert) with the same mangled name. Are they both there and, if so, does the PDF version contain an image? /Paul PS: I doubt it's related to your problem, but I do recommend upgrading to the latest LyX version.
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I went ahead and tried "View -> PDF (ps2pdf)" as well as "View -> PDF (dvipdfm)", and both of these approaches yield only a single blank page of output in the PDF. When I build via "View -> PDF (pdflatex)" the PDF files that are created in the Lyx Temp directory only have an empty bounding box, so something is being corrupted in the conversion. When I type convert I do not have to specify the path. Though I do notice that the PATH variable has the most recent ImageMagick location listed first (6.5.9), followed by an older ImageMagick install (6.2.9). Could this cause any problems? Though I was still seeing the same error with the 6.2.9 ImageMagick version, so maybe not??? Lastly, I looked at the *.log output in the Lyx Temp directory, and the following warning message is showing up for the EPS to PDF conversions: Package pdftex.def Warning: Option `bb' does not make sense, (pdftex.def)using `viewport' instead on input line 1230. <12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_10_Fig ures_slip_scale.pdf, id=164, 614.295pt x 794.97pt> File: 12C__Documents_and_Settings_tsalamon_My_Documen___nt_Ryan_POF_PoF_09_02_1 0_Figures_slip_scale.pdf Graphic file (type pdf) I did download the latest version Lyx 1.6.5, but ended up seeing the same behavior. Though there is an issue in the installation where the installer isn't able to write a file, and I tell it to simply ignore the error and proceed. The details are earlier in this thread. This applies to version 1.5.7 that is currently installed as well as 1.6.5. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Am 15.02.2010 19:30, schrieb Todd Salamon: I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. This is most probably the reason. Before you proceed fiddling around in your system to find the misconfiguration, I recommend to 1. uninstall LyX _completely_ 2. uninstall MikteX 2.5 also _completely_ (MiKTeX 2.5 is too old and thus not supported by the MiKTeX developer) 3. uninstall Imagemagick (if installed) 4. uninstall Ghostscript (if installed) 5. open an Interent connection 6. reinstall LyX 1.6.5 using the complete version of this installer: http://wiki.lyx.org/Windows/LyXWinInstaller This will install MiKTeX 2.8 and also all LaTeX-packages needed by LyX. It also installs an up-to-date image manipulation system (Ghostscript, ImageMagick, etc.). regards Uwe
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I installed Lyx 1.6.5 and MiKTeX 2.8 and this has fixed the problem. One note: the Lyx/MiKTeX install didn't work unless I uninstalled Adobe Acrobat Reader, restarted, installed Lyx/MiKTeX and then re-installed Acrobat Reader. Thanks for the suggestion Uwe. Regards, Todd
EPS files not displaying in PDF
I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when I try View - PDF (pdflatex) the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all show up fine. Any idea why this is happening with PDF? Thanks. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon tsala...@... writes: I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when I try View - PDF (pdflatex) the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all show up fine. Any idea why this is happening with PDF? First question: do you have ImageMagick installed? LyX will try to convert EPS files to PDF for inclusion in a PDF document, and it will need ImageMagick to do so. (See the Embedded Objects manual for details.) /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I just tried updating to ImageMagick 6.5.9-5-Q16 and that didn't make any difference. Todd P.S. FYI - in the process of installing Lyx there was an error related to writing a file. Any of the ... below are too long for me to write. Error opening file for writing: MiKTeX 2.5SystemAdmin yesPowerUser noSharedSetup BinDir... binOS... Root0... Root1... Root2... UserData... UserConfig... fndb0... fndb1... fndb2... fndbmpm C\Documents and Sett\dvipost.sty I had the option of choosing Abort, Retry and Ignore. Retry would give the same error, so I went ahead with Ignore.
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon tsala...@... writes: I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. What happens if, in a command window (DOS prompt), you run 'convert whatever.eps whatever.pdf' against one of your EPS files? I'm wondering if maybe there's something in them that is causing ImageMagick heartburn. /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamon tsala...@alcatel-lucent.com shared this with is all on the Lyx users list: The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** To have done anything just for money is to have been truly idle. ...Henry David Thoreau *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic ___
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
compile it using PS method, not dvi Liang M-L wrote: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamon tsala...@alcatel-lucent.com shared this with is all on the Lyx users list: The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie
EPS files not displaying in PDF
I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when I try View - PDF (pdflatex) the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all show up fine. Any idea why this is happening with PDF? Thanks. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon tsala...@... writes: I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when I try View - PDF (pdflatex) the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all show up fine. Any idea why this is happening with PDF? First question: do you have ImageMagick installed? LyX will try to convert EPS files to PDF for inclusion in a PDF document, and it will need ImageMagick to do so. (See the Embedded Objects manual for details.) /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I just tried updating to ImageMagick 6.5.9-5-Q16 and that didn't make any difference. Todd P.S. FYI - in the process of installing Lyx there was an error related to writing a file. Any of the ... below are too long for me to write. Error opening file for writing: MiKTeX 2.5SystemAdmin yesPowerUser noSharedSetup BinDir... binOS... Root0... Root1... Root2... UserData... UserConfig... fndb0... fndb1... fndb2... fndbmpm C\Documents and Sett\dvipost.sty I had the option of choosing Abort, Retry and Ignore. Retry would give the same error, so I went ahead with Ignore.
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamon tsala...@... writes: I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. What happens if, in a command window (DOS prompt), you run 'convert whatever.eps whatever.pdf' against one of your EPS files? I'm wondering if maybe there's something in them that is causing ImageMagick heartburn. /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamon tsala...@alcatel-lucent.com shared this with is all on the Lyx users list: The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** To have done anything just for money is to have been truly idle. ...Henry David Thoreau *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic ___
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
compile it using PS method, not dvi Liang M-L wrote: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamon tsala...@alcatel-lucent.com shared this with is all on the Lyx users list: The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie
EPS files not displaying in PDF
I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when I try "View -> PDF (pdflatex)" the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all show up fine. Any idea why this is happening with PDF? Thanks. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamonwrites: > > I am running Lyx 1.5.7 on Windows XP SP2 with MiKTeX 2.5 installed. I have a > document with PDF and EPS files for figures. The preview shows both, but when > I > try "View -> PDF (pdflatex)" the resulting PDF file only includes the PDF > images, and the EPS files show up as empty boxes with nothing inside. > > If I export to PostScript and view the *.ps file, the PDF and EPS graphics all > show up fine. > > Any idea why this is happening with PDF? > First question: do you have ImageMagick installed? LyX will try to convert EPS files to PDF for inclusion in a PDF document, and it will need ImageMagick to do so. (See the Embedded Objects manual for details.) /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
I just tried updating to ImageMagick 6.5.9-5-Q16 and that didn't make any difference. Todd P.S. FYI - in the process of installing Lyx there was an error related to writing a file. Any of the "..." below are too long for me to write. Error opening file for writing: MiKTeX 2.5SystemAdmin yesPowerUser noSharedSetup BinDir... binOS... Root0... Root1... Root2... UserData... UserConfig... fndb0... fndb1... fndb2... fndbmpm C\Documents and Sett\dvipost.sty I had the option of choosing "Abort", "Retry" and "Ignore". "Retry" would give the same error, so I went ahead with "Ignore".
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
Todd Salamonwrites: > > > I have ImageMagick 6.2.9 Q16 installed. > What happens if, in a command window (DOS prompt), you run 'convert whatever.eps whatever.pdf' against one of your EPS files? I'm wondering if maybe there's something in them that is causing ImageMagick heartburn. /Paul
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
The convert command does work ok. I went ahead and tried convert filename.eps filename.pdf The PDF is a bit grainy and unresolved, but there is definitely an image there, whereas in the document it's an empty bounding box. I also tried opening filename.eps in Adobe Illustrator and it complained about the following fonts CMMI7: Default font substituted for missing font. and the same message for CMR7, CMSY7, CMMI10. My colleagues is running Lyx 1.5.xx, with MiKTeX 2.7, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with creating the PDF. Todd
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamonshared this with is all on the Lyx users list: >The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** To have done anything just for money is to have been truly idle. ...Henry David Thoreau *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic ___
Re: EPS files not displaying in PDF
compile it using PS method, not dvi Liang M-L wrote: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:26:20 + (UTC) Todd Salamonshared this with is all on the Lyx users list: The convert command does work ok. This is probably of no consequence, but I specified that the Gimp should be used in LyX and it worked a treat. However the Gimp is a bit of overkill if you're not using it anyway for most other things. Just a thought. Charlie