Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Karen Lewellen]

brad,
accessibility is neither about blindness or limiting choices speaking 
personally.
Arrow key function meets several needs, that likely cannot be matched by 
removing your hands  for the option you suggest.

For example, does it work via voice?
Many times voice driven tools match arrow key manipulation.
And, if a party has been successfully navigating with arrow keys, and that 
stops working, how will they effortlessly learn a solution?
Again speaking personally, the more paths to a door the greater the tool 
is accessible for the widest number of individuals.  All of whom embody 
their disability experience uniquely.

Just my take,
Karen


On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Brad Snyder wrote:


It's not a big deal.
It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
that point onward.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
arrow keys.

Andrew


On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
causing your problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.


From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
“Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this
list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a
lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking
about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

No, Linux is on an x86 machine. I’m leaving the mac to MacOS, and I’m avoiding 
virtualization (too many opportunities for issues, and not worth the effort).

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of Anders Holmberg 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 13:51
To: 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
Jason!
Do you have linux installed on your Mac?
Bless.
/A


8 sep. 2023 kl. 13:27 skrev 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown 
mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan 
mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac
Visionaries list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
The interaction has been my biggest issue since I started with Mac. Now even 
the music app has that in the Apple Music session.
I hate it.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 17:21 skrev Brad Snyder :
> 
> It's not a big deal.
> It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
> everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
> always feel like I have to do combos for most things.
> 
> On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
>> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
>> that point onward.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
>> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
>> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
>> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
>> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
>> arrow keys.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>>> causing your problems here.
>>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>>> annoying aspect.
>>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>> 
>>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>> 
>>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> 
 On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
 
 I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
 use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
 with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
 like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
 can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
 couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
 
 On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
> the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
> VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
> to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
> iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
>> compared
>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
>> “Safari
>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>> 
>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
>> Mac
>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
>> a
>> coin on the decision.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this
>> list
>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>> 
>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a
>> lot
>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>> 
>> I think I am mostly 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Jason!
Do you have linux installed on your Mac?
Bless.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 13:27 skrev 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
> :
> 
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
> Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
> problems here.
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft 
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some 
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying 
> aspect. 
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>  
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  >
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  > wrote:
>  
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  > wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
> you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I normally do not have issues with such things in mail.
There are other things in the mail app that has gone strange in the beta.
I try my best to give the feedback I can.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 03:06 skrev Jonathan Cohn :
> 
> What are you talking about, VoiceOver for Mac with the Mail application has 
> always respected using the goto header functions.
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
>> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
>> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
>> impossible task in Apple mail.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>> 
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
>>> wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
 performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
 
 For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
 exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
 duration.
 
 For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
 You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
 
 Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
 get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
 
 The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and 
 iOS.
 I hope they fix it soon.
 
 Hope that helps,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed
 
 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/1B0EC27E-B19C-4661-B8FC-8B1DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.
> 
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I have an m1 Mac mini and it was a huge difference but safari has gone worse in 
the beta so I use firefox.
/A

> 7 sep. 2023 kl. 19:33 skrev Traci Duncan :
> 
> Ok, this is mostly good feedback. Thanks. I want to stick with Mac, just 
> because it is far more natural now.
> 
> I do use duck duck go for searching, but constantly get safari not 
> responding. Is Google Chrome preferred?
> 
> I also get music not responding.
> 
> I had heard upgrading to a m2 MBA will make a big difference.
> 
> Thanks all,
> Traci
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in 
>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>> 
>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the 
>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter 
>> duration.
>> 
>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO. 
>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>> 
>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to 
>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>> 
>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS. 
>> I hope they fix it soon.
>> 
>> Hope that helps,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared to 
>>> Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously 
>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop. 
>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari 
>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>> 
>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac 
>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a 
>>> coin on the decision.
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
>>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>>> 
>>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot 
>>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>>> 
>>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
>>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should 
>>> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 
>>> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>>> 
>>> What are your guises thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> From Traci's MBA20.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>  
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
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>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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>>>  
>>> 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
The beta has gone a bit better but there’s still issues.
But if there’s no one testing there will not bee any good results either.
/A

> 7 sep. 2023 kl. 18:58 skrev josephlho...@gmail.com:
> 
> I am normally not a Doom and gloom person, but my experience with the beta
> has been very poor. Using Safari or Microsoft Edge if I'm moving by Headings
> or controls voiceover often crashes and I cannot bring it back. So much with
> web navigation is broken. Top it all off with my message this morning in
> that if I'm just moving literally with the right and left arrow keys through
> a page speech is stopping it's very awful. I'm hoping that maybe just all of
> the voice over things haven't made it into the beta and there will be this
> moment where clarity happens but sadly the Mac doesn't get the sort of
> support it needs from the community and requesting that things get better. I
> actually downgraded my computer back to the current OS and am going to let
> folks report back to what they see. I did file tickets, so I am hopeful. To
> be honest I wouldn't buy a Mac at this moment until I see the end result of
> the final product. I love the Mac hardware nothing really rivals it, but for
> us accessibility is just not trending in the right direction.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On
> Behalf Of Traci Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:24 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should
> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900
> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:
> mktay@ucla.eduUsing  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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> DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.
> 
> -- 
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> list.
> 
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> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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> 

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To 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO commands 
when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display). So far as I 
remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4, just 
to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse pointer there 
won’t do it.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email message, 
rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from that point 
onward.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:
In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or 
link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath 
the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of 
the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem 
to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.

Andrew


On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown 
mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan 
mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Dennis Clark]

Hello Andrew,

Which email program do you use on windows that you have found better 
than the mail program on the Mac? I have been pretty satisfied with the 
Mac email program, but I think I am not doing the task you described. I 
have Thunderbird on my Windows machine and it is at best just okay in my 
experience. Thanks for your information.


Dennis



On 9/7/2023 12:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries wrote:
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web 
navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can 
swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate 
them - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.


Andrew


On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed > wrote:

Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you 
make the

exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related 
to VO.

You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a 
chance to

get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac 
and iOS.

I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed


On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  
wrote:


My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful 
compared

to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying 
“Safari

is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on 
the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just 
flip a

coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on 
this list

about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or 
are a lot

of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking 
about

updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance 
issues.


What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
From Traci's MBA20.

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list, or

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owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
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Cara at

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email to 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Brad Snyder]

It's not a big deal.
It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
> 
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
> arrow keys.
> 
> Andrew
> 
>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>> causing your problems here.
>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>> annoying aspect.
>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>> 
>> 
>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>> 
>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>> 
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>> 
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
 performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
 
 For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
 the
 exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
 duration.
 
 For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
 VO.
 You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
 
 Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
 to
 get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
 
 The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
 iOS.
 I hope they fix it soon.
 
 Hope that helps,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed
 
 
 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
> wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
> compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
> “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
> Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
> a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this
> list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a
> lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking
> about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance
> issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[lenron brown]

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
>
> - Brad -
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
>
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
> arrow keys.
>
> Andrew
>
>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>> causing your problems here.
>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>> annoying aspect.
>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>
>>
>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>> 
>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>>
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>>
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

 I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
 performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

 For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
 the
 exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
 duration.

 For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
 VO.
 You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

 Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
 to
 get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

 The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
 iOS.
 I hope they fix it soon.

 Hope that helps,

 Mohamed E. Fayed



> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
> wrote:
>
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
> compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
> “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
> Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
> a
> coin on the decision.
>
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this
> list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a
> lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking
> about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance
> issues.
>
> What are your guises thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
>
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
>

Re: Inserting horizontal line

[Thomas Frank]

The easiest thing to do is type a series of asterisks, hyphens or similar 
characters to separate two messages.
Thomas Frank
vermont...@gmail.com



> On Sep 7, 2023, at 12:10 PM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I was just composing an email where I was pasting an example letter. 
> I thought it would be nice to have some sort of separation between the top 
> part of the email, and the pasted potential letter. If that makes sense.
> 
> Is there a way to insert a long line divider?
> 
> Thanks,
> Traci
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Brad Snyder]

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from that point onward.- Brad -On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.AndrewOn 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries  wrote:I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your problems here.I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect. Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading. From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibilityI agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail. AndrewOn 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote: I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. Iuse both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. Ilike my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some thingscan just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and acouple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:Hi,I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain inperformance is tremendous and you will notice it.For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make theexact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorterduration.For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance toget to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.I hope they fix it soon.Hope that helps,Mohamed E. FayedOn 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful comparedto Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriouslyconsider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safariis Busy” message that cripples my productivity.So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Macdoes not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip acoin on the decision.Dave CarlsonWoodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfardgcarlson0...@gmail.comOn Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this listabout the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lotof you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking aboutupdating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed tospend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.What are your guises thoughts?Thank you,From Traci's MBA20.--The following information is important for all members of the MacVisionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, orif you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact theowners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach markat:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara atcaraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups"MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send anemail to 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or 
link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath 
the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of 
the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem 
to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.

Andrew

> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
> Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
> problems here.
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft 
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some 
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying 
> aspect. 
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>  
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  >
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  > wrote:
>  
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  > wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
> you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew


On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed



On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

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Visionaries list.

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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
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