Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I am using Google docs and google classroom.
In my opinion it needs to be fixed because there are some accessibility flaws 
that can be quite frustrating.
But if you want to edit a google document you have to open the documents app on 
your iphone and press the edit button.
In classroom its impossible but you can choose to open in another app and then 
edit.
For example:
I can click on a document in google classroom and select the open in another 
app and from there open it in the google docs app.
Its tricky but it can be done with some patience.
/A

> 19 nov. 2018 kl. 16:37 skrev frednav...@gmail.com:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are using 
> Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very competent. 
> 
> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how to 
> get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to navigate 
> and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much appreciated!!  
> 
> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
> fredn...@tcoe.org
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[frednavd55]

Thank you!! I will check it out. A training tool would be perfect.

Fredna Van Dellen TVI
Teacher of students with a vision impairment
Tulare Co. Office of Ed
Visalia, CA 93277

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:03 AM, jean parker  wrote:
> 
> All:
> 
> Mystic Access has a tutorial on using G suite with screen readers including 
> voiceover. I have purchasedit  but have not gone through it yet. It does 
> appear to be quite useful. The tech support in the accessibility section of 
> google are not trained and although they are well intended, were ultimately 
> not helpful.
> 
> 
>> On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:14 am, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> A couple of things.  Google makes it difficult to use their web apps due to 
>> the ever changing nature of their coding of the apps.  Basic accessibility 
>> is always present, but the more interactive nature of these apps is not 
>> always quite so friendly.  I would first make sure that you always ensure 
>> that Accessible mode is enabled.  Second, actually working within the 
>> editable area is often a challenge.  I suggest that when using VO, just use 
>> arrow navigation, no VO keys.  If focus is in the editable area, when you 
>> arrow down or up, you'll be navigating line by line.  Right/left goes 
>> character by character.  Add the Option key to the right/left action and you 
>> can go word by word.  There is also a link, or button, that reads something 
>> about "Editing" that when pressed, often makes sure that focus for the 
>> cursor is in the editable area.  The other thing that I find useful is to 
>> use a combination of tools.  ChromeVox in Chrome often allows you to get at 
>> editable items more easily as well as many of the menu actions.  Using a 
>> combination of ChromeVox, Chrome, VO and Safari often gives you the most 
>> success.
>> 
>> Later...
>> 
>> Tim Kilburn
>> Apple Teacher
>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>> 
>> On Nov 19, 2018, at 09:02, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>> 
>> hello,
>> 
>> I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
>> active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
>> Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
>>> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
>>> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am 
>>> interested in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically 
>>> the products we use are considered by people like you.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello, 
>>> 
>>> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
>>> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are 
>>> using Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very 
>>> competent. 
>>> 
>>> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
>>> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and 
>>> google classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. 
>>> We have been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure 
>>> out how to get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning 
>>> to navigate and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much 
>>> appreciated!!  
>>> 
>>> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
>>> fredn...@tcoe.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. 

Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[frednavd55]

Hi, 

Thank you. Not exactly sure how to access all these accessibility modes when 
using google classroom but will look it over and try.

Thanks again!
Fredna
Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:14 AM, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A couple of things.  Google makes it difficult to use their web apps due to 
> the ever changing nature of their coding of the apps.  Basic accessibility is 
> always present, but the more interactive nature of these apps is not always 
> quite so friendly.  I would first make sure that you always ensure that 
> Accessible mode is enabled.  Second, actually working within the editable 
> area is often a challenge.  I suggest that when using VO, just use arrow 
> navigation, no VO keys.  If focus is in the editable area, when you arrow 
> down or up, you'll be navigating line by line.  Right/left goes character by 
> character.  Add the Option key to the right/left action and you can go word 
> by word.  There is also a link, or button, that reads something about 
> "Editing" that when pressed, often makes sure that focus for the cursor is in 
> the editable area.  The other thing that I find useful is to use a 
> combination of tools.  ChromeVox in Chrome often allows you to get at 
> editable items more easily as well as many of the menu actions.  Using a 
> combination of ChromeVox, Chrome, VO and Safari often gives you the most 
> success.
> 
> Later...
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 09:02, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> hello,
> 
> I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
> active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
> Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
>> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
>> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am interested 
>> in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically the 
>> products we use are considered by people like you.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hello, 
>> 
>> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
>> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are 
>> using Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very 
>> competent. 
>> 
>> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
>> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
>> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
>> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how 
>> to get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to 
>> navigate and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much 
>> appreciated!!  
>> 
>> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
>> fredn...@tcoe.org
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[jean parker]

All:

Mystic Access has a tutorial on using G suite with screen readers including 
voiceover. I have purchasedit  but have not gone through it yet. It does appear 
to be quite useful. The tech support in the accessibility section of google are 
not trained and although they are well intended, were ultimately not helpful.


> On 19 Nov 2018, at 9:14 am, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A couple of things.  Google makes it difficult to use their web apps due to 
> the ever changing nature of their coding of the apps.  Basic accessibility is 
> always present, but the more interactive nature of these apps is not always 
> quite so friendly.  I would first make sure that you always ensure that 
> Accessible mode is enabled.  Second, actually working within the editable 
> area is often a challenge.  I suggest that when using VO, just use arrow 
> navigation, no VO keys.  If focus is in the editable area, when you arrow 
> down or up, you'll be navigating line by line.  Right/left goes character by 
> character.  Add the Option key to the right/left action and you can go word 
> by word.  There is also a link, or button, that reads something about 
> "Editing" that when pressed, often makes sure that focus for the cursor is in 
> the editable area.  The other thing that I find useful is to use a 
> combination of tools.  ChromeVox in Chrome often allows you to get at 
> editable items more easily as well as many of the menu actions.  Using a 
> combination of ChromeVox, Chrome, VO and Safari often gives you the most 
> success.
> 
> Later...
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Apple Teacher
> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 09:02, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> hello,
> 
> I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
> active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
> Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
>> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
>> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am interested 
>> in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically the 
>> products we use are considered by people like you.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hello, 
>> 
>> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
>> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are 
>> using Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very 
>> competent. 
>> 
>> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
>> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
>> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
>> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how 
>> to get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to 
>> navigate and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much 
>> appreciated!!  
>> 
>> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
>> fredn...@tcoe.org
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this 

Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

A couple of things.  Google makes it difficult to use their web apps due to the 
ever changing nature of their coding of the apps.  Basic accessibility is 
always present, but the more interactive nature of these apps is not always 
quite so friendly.  I would first make sure that you always ensure that 
Accessible mode is enabled.  Second, actually working within the editable area 
is often a challenge.  I suggest that when using VO, just use arrow navigation, 
no VO keys.  If focus is in the editable area, when you arrow down or up, 
you'll be navigating line by line.  Right/left goes character by character.  
Add the Option key to the right/left action and you can go word by word.  There 
is also a link, or button, that reads something about "Editing" that when 
pressed, often makes sure that focus for the cursor is in the editable area.  
The other thing that I find useful is to use a combination of tools.  ChromeVox 
in Chrome often allows you to get at editable items more easily as well as many 
of the menu actions.  Using a combination of ChromeVox, Chrome, VO and Safari 
often gives you the most success.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Nov 19, 2018, at 09:02, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:

hello,

I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am interested 
> in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically the products 
> we use are considered by people like you.

Thanks!

Jonathan Cohn



> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are using 
> Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very competent. 
> 
> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how to 
> get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to navigate 
> and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much appreciated!!  
> 
> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
> fredn...@tcoe.org 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[frednavd55]

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for your interest. Yes, you may contact me at my work email, 
fredn...@tcoe.org.  I’m unavailable today but but should be able to discuss 
this tomorrow afternoon some time.   You can also explain how this group works. 
Sounds like some that help request compensation? 

Thank you!

Fredna Van Dellen TVI
Teacher of Students With a
Vision Impairment


Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> hello,
> 
> I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
> active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
> Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
>> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
>> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am interested 
>> in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically the 
>> products we use are considered by people like you.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hello, 
>> 
>> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
>> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are 
>> using Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very 
>> competent. 
>> 
>> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
>> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
>> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
>> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how 
>> to get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to 
>> navigate and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much 
>> appreciated!!  
>> 
>> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
>> fredn...@tcoe.org
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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-- 
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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[Jonathan Cohn]

hello,

I would be interested in working with you to figure this out. I am not an 
active user of Google documents but have used them on occasion on both my 
Braille Note Touch and my Macintosh. 
> May I contact you off list and from a more personal e-mail address to 
> discuss. I am not interested  in receiving any compensation. I am interested 
> in how blind students work with technology, and how specifically the products 
> we use are considered by people like you.

Thanks!

Jonathan Cohn



> On Nov 19, 2018, at 10:37 AM, frednav...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
> highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are using 
> Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very competent. 
> 
> As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
> looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
> classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have 
> been able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how to 
> get inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to navigate 
> and work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much appreciated!!  
> 
> Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
> fredn...@tcoe.org
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Using VO on MacAir in Google Docs and classroom

[frednavd55]

Hello, 

I am a teacher of the visually impaired and working with a freshman 
highschooler who has a MacBook provided by her school. Her teachers are using 
Google classroom. She uses voiceover on her phone and is very competent. 

As her TVI I am trying to help her learn voiceover on the laptop. We are 
looking for any advice and information regarding using voice over and google 
classroom in Google docs. Using the rotar  has been quite helpful. We have been 
able to navigate to open up a new document, but cannot figure out how to get 
inside the document to begin typing. Any help with learning to navigate and 
work within  Google Docs and Google classroom is much appreciated!!  

Fredna Van Dellen, TVI
fredn...@tcoe.org


Sent from my iPhone

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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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