Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Scott Howell]

Hi Anne,

Well if I knew French, I'd have to get those training manuals from you. :) 
However, I have enough trouble with my native English. :) Well I hope to find 
some time to study the entire iWOrks suite, but for now off to install a new 
water heater since the other one caught fire. :)

Scott


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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Florian,
On 4 Feb 2011, at 23:51, f10r14n wrote:
 
 
 As a matter of fact, I agree with both sides on some account. Before
 you shoot me for it let me explain.
 First, Kevin's side. He has been trying to transition to the mac, for
 example for his school needs I think. For this, he has tried and
 failed to do the tasks he could do on Windows. Of course this could be
 due to infamiliarity with the mac system, however Mac is supposed to
 be intuitive and easy to use. Then, why is it so hard to do what he is
 trying to do?
Because what he is trying to do is more like professional use of the Mac, not 
the sort of thing most people do at home, such as using Mail, Safari, iTunes, 
Address Book, etc.

I doubt that anyone using MS Office learned all the various ways of formatting 
documents professionally without some training.

 Look, I understand that knowing a system is required before you can
 actually claim it doesn't work the right way, but I think that six
 months is a lot of time to learn voiceOver and I happen to know he has
 been at this for hours before even considering doing the episode.
As I said above, iWork is a professional package and you need a thorough 
knowledge of VoiceOver and iWork to make good use of it.

 The way I see it on this thread is that he is requesting aid in fixing
 his supposed inexperience , but all he gets back is flames about him
 critisizing voiceOver without knowing it. If there's something that
 scares away a newbie, it is that imnsho.
 
Kevin is getting help with iWork now. He simply didn't ask the right questions 
in the right places before doing his podcast. A vague question about how to use 
iWork is not helpful, whereas a request for help performing a specific task 
makes it much easier to know what a person is looking for.

iWork is complex, and it would require a whole book to explain how to use it. 
In fact, that's exactly what comes with it — a whole book, and that's for 
sighted users!

 If i knew how to fix these issues, I would write them up. But
 apparently noone here knows a foolproof solution to the issues
 described both above and in the podcast. If i am wrong kindly correct
 me but this is my current view on the situation.
 
You are, in fact, wrong. Most of Kevin's issues have been, or can be, resolved. 
But this is not stuff for beginners, and many of the old hands at VoiceOver are 
no longer on lists like this because there are too many messages repeating the 
same questions and they haven't the time to deal with them.

Of course, new users need to ask the same questions that all new users ask, but 
some people are not teachers and don't want to be bothered.

I think the real problem is the lack of formal training available for the Mac 
in the US.

Here in France, we are slowly putting together a training network for VoiceOver 
and people are getting the help that they need.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[f10r14n]

Hello Anne and others,

Let me first say that if Kevin's issues are resolved no longer seems
the general subject of this thread. This is why I jumped in in the
first place.
Let me first disagree with you on one point Anne. Formatting documents
may not be necessary for quick 'n dirty edocument writing, but then
neither is iWork. We have our built-in friend TextEdit for that.
Often though, at schools, wehn writing letters, essays, assignments,
papers, books, readme files, websites, articles, blog posts, .. it
is no bad idea to do some formatting on your text.
Headings are certainly important because a lot of screenreaders
provide hotkeys to quickly jump from heading to heading. Putting
headings in your documents therefore cuts back on a lot of unnecessary
reading.
Same goes for lists, they may not be very important for us visually
impaired people, but they certainly are for people who can see the
screen and any eventual print-outs of what you are writing. And this
is coming from someone who hates having to adhere to sighted people.

So saying formatting is only for the very professional is just not
true.
Also, if you come from a Windows world, naturally you are first going
to try what works and what doesn't from a windows perspective. This is
of course not the way to go, but you do it anyway. Its a basic human
response to first try what they are familiar with , even if it is just
in your mind.
 So my initial response would be that there has to be a hotkey to
format headings , like shift+ctrl+1 in Windows.
If or when i later find out this is in fact not so and that there's
quite a bit of work to be done to make one heading appear and i have
to make ten, my initial response would be to say ' Fine, i'll do it in
Windows because it goes ten times faster'.
But to come back on my original point. If his issues are resolved
doesn't seem to be important anymore. All i see is people criticizing
people who criticize voiceOver, which is imho not right.
Look if people are using the mac for their jobs or school and bugs pop
up that hamper them in their productivity, I can very much imagine
them not cheering and jumping for joy about it.
Podcasts like voiceOver On are there to point out these bugs, inform
people having the same problems of possible workarounds if they are
known, or asking if they are not .
They are not in any way to be viewed as some sort of magical law that
states that voiceOver is bad. So, if something is demonstrated in one
of these podcasts, and the bug is clearly shown for what it is, it
makes absolutely no sense at all to blatantly yell ' USER ERROR!'
without explaining yourself.
Anne did a very good job at this, providing solutions that she is
comfortable with. I commend her for that. And I can imagine people
being bothered by seeing the same questions over and over. But do
everyone a favor and do not respond with useless info if that is the
case. You will cut back on list traffic and also on a lot of
frustration from the initial poster's perspective. If iWork works
well, just say so. Say what is wrong in the assumptions of a post like
Kevin's initial one, point out solutions but don't go all ' VoiceOver
is holy'  because that just doesn't help anyone.

Sorry for the long rant but I just see this happen more and more often
and I really see no point to it.

Florian

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Scott Howell]

Hi Anne,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. THe problem for most people who are 
using windows and windows screen readers is they have received some form of 
training. I for example since switching to Microsoft Office 2007 have struggled 
to accomplish a lot of formatting tasks. My employer can train me how to use 
the office suite, but unless I receive training from someone who uses 
Window-Eyes as well, it would not be as effective. I do fortunately use a Mac 
for nearly everything at work, so I can use Textedit and MS Word to get most 
things done. Not an elegant  solution, but I have not had time to find the 
correct training. My point is that understanding VoiceOver is one part of the 
puzzle, but iWorks like most any office suite will take some form of training, 
whether that be reading a manual or taking a formalized training course. If 
Kevin had that opportunity, he probably would have a much easier time of it. I 
suspect though with a fairly good understanding of VOiceOver, it would be 
easier for a sighted trainer to teach a blind person how to use the iWorks 
suite just because of how VoiceOver interacts with the applications and OS.
Of course what do I know, I just hack along and figure stuff out. :)

Scott





On Feb 5, 2011, at 3:24 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Florian,
 On 4 Feb 2011, at 23:51, f10r14n wrote:
 
 
 As a matter of fact, I agree with both sides on some account. Before
 you shoot me for it let me explain.
 First, Kevin's side. He has been trying to transition to the mac, for
 example for his school needs I think. For this, he has tried and
 failed to do the tasks he could do on Windows. Of course this could be
 due to infamiliarity with the mac system, however Mac is supposed to
 be intuitive and easy to use. Then, why is it so hard to do what he is
 trying to do?
 Because what he is trying to do is more like professional use of the Mac, not 
 the sort of thing most people do at home, such as using Mail, Safari, iTunes, 
 Address Book, etc.
 
 I doubt that anyone using MS Office learned all the various ways of 
 formatting documents professionally without some training.
 
 Look, I understand that knowing a system is required before you can
 actually claim it doesn't work the right way, but I think that six
 months is a lot of time to learn voiceOver and I happen to know he has
 been at this for hours before even considering doing the episode.
 As I said above, iWork is a professional package and you need a thorough 
 knowledge of VoiceOver and iWork to make good use of it.
 
 The way I see it on this thread is that he is requesting aid in fixing
 his supposed inexperience , but all he gets back is flames about him
 critisizing voiceOver without knowing it. If there's something that
 scares away a newbie, it is that imnsho.
 
 Kevin is getting help with iWork now. He simply didn't ask the right 
 questions in the right places before doing his podcast. A vague question 
 about how to use iWork is not helpful, whereas a request for help performing 
 a specific task makes it much easier to know what a person is looking for.
 
 iWork is complex, and it would require a whole book to explain how to use it. 
 In fact, that's exactly what comes with it — a whole book, and that's for 
 sighted users!
 
 If i knew how to fix these issues, I would write them up. But
 apparently noone here knows a foolproof solution to the issues
 described both above and in the podcast. If i am wrong kindly correct
 me but this is my current view on the situation.
 
 You are, in fact, wrong. Most of Kevin's issues have been, or can be, 
 resolved. But this is not stuff for beginners, and many of the old hands at 
 VoiceOver are no longer on lists like this because there are too many 
 messages repeating the same questions and they haven't the time to deal with 
 them.
 
 Of course, new users need to ask the same questions that all new users ask, 
 but some people are not teachers and don't want to be bothered.
 
 I think the real problem is the lack of formal training available for the Mac 
 in the US.
 
 Here in France, we are slowly putting together a training network for 
 VoiceOver and people are getting the help that they need.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Scott,

I have the luxury of being married to a Mac expert and when we both have time 
at the same time, we put together user guides for VoiceOver users. 
Unfortunately for this list, they are usually in French, since the people we 
teach are themselves French.

I've got Kevin more or less sorted with Pages, there are just a few issues to 
resolve there.

We got quite a long way with Keynote, too. That just leaves Numbers, and I'm 
really not good with that. I hope we'll get a chance to do more with Numbers in 
the next few days.

As for Florian's problem with putting in headings, you just set hot keys for 
the headings you want in a document, and then it's easy to apply them. I think 
I explained all this in my instructions for creating ePub books using Pages.

Also, I suspect there are people on this and other lists who make their living 
from training people, and they're reluctant to give away for free what they can 
sell — and who can blame them? We all have to make a living.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Carolyn Haas]

Hi Anne:
What you've said here is very well thought and very well put.  I've been at 
this over a year, and still feel half the time like I'm learning on the fly.  
There are some systems being developed in the US for training with Voiceover.  
But, they're not easy to find when you're just learning your way around the 
Mac.  I'm sort of teaching someone new their way around, and I'm drawing from 
about 5 differing resources and being asked to develop a curriculum.  There are 
now so many individually made tutorials out there that I'm at a loss as to how 
to even assimilate them.  
On the other hand, I want to mention the manual Earle Harrison has put together 
for his Handitech workshop as an invaluable tool for getting started.  
Once one has a good grasp of the basics, the things Kevin is trying to 
accomplish won't loom so large and leave him wanting to jump back into windows. 
(or wanting to jump out of them.:)
Anyway, my two bucks worth. (absolutely free!)
Enjoy the day All.

Carolyn 
On Feb 5, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Florian,
 On 4 Feb 2011, at 23:51, f10r14n wrote:
 
 
 As a matter of fact, I agree with both sides on some account. Before
 you shoot me for it let me explain.
 First, Kevin's side. He has been trying to transition to the mac, for
 example for his school needs I think. For this, he has tried and
 failed to do the tasks he could do on Windows. Of course this could be
 due to infamiliarity with the mac system, however Mac is supposed to
 be intuitive and easy to use. Then, why is it so hard to do what he is
 trying to do?
 Because what he is trying to do is more like professional use of the Mac, not 
 the sort of thing most people do at home, such as using Mail, Safari, iTunes, 
 Address Book, etc.
 
 I doubt that anyone using MS Office learned all the various ways of 
 formatting documents professionally without some training.
 
 Look, I understand that knowing a system is required before you can
 actually claim it doesn't work the right way, but I think that six
 months is a lot of time to learn voiceOver and I happen to know he has
 been at this for hours before even considering doing the episode.
 As I said above, iWork is a professional package and you need a thorough 
 knowledge of VoiceOver and iWork to make good use of it.
 
 The way I see it on this thread is that he is requesting aid in fixing
 his supposed inexperience , but all he gets back is flames about him
 critisizing voiceOver without knowing it. If there's something that
 scares away a newbie, it is that imnsho.
 
 Kevin is getting help with iWork now. He simply didn't ask the right 
 questions in the right places before doing his podcast. A vague question 
 about how to use iWork is not helpful, whereas a request for help performing 
 a specific task makes it much easier to know what a person is looking for.
 
 iWork is complex, and it would require a whole book to explain how to use it. 
 In fact, that's exactly what comes with it — a whole book, and that's for 
 sighted users!
 
 If i knew how to fix these issues, I would write them up. But
 apparently noone here knows a foolproof solution to the issues
 described both above and in the podcast. If i am wrong kindly correct
 me but this is my current view on the situation.
 
 You are, in fact, wrong. Most of Kevin's issues have been, or can be, 
 resolved. But this is not stuff for beginners, and many of the old hands at 
 VoiceOver are no longer on lists like this because there are too many 
 messages repeating the same questions and they haven't the time to deal with 
 them.
 
 Of course, new users need to ask the same questions that all new users ask, 
 but some people are not teachers and don't want to be bothered.
 
 I think the real problem is the lack of formal training available for the Mac 
 in the US.
 
 Here in France, we are slowly putting together a training network for 
 VoiceOver and people are getting the help that they need.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

I'm working on Kevin's Numbers assignment now but I have to stop for the day.  
I will continue with things tomorrow and post my suggestions.  I'm not a 
Numbers expert either but know a little more than the basics.  Let's hope it's 
helpful.

Later...

On 2011-02-05, at 1:36 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Scott,
 
 I have the luxury of being married to a Mac expert and when we both have time 
 at the same time, we put together user guides for VoiceOver users. 
 Unfortunately for this list, they are usually in French, since the people we 
 teach are themselves French.
 
 I've got Kevin more or less sorted with Pages, there are just a few issues to 
 resolve there.
 
 We got quite a long way with Keynote, too. That just leaves Numbers, and I'm 
 really not good with that. I hope we'll get a chance to do more with Numbers 
 in the next few days.
 
 As for Florian's problem with putting in headings, you just set hot keys for 
 the headings you want in a document, and then it's easy to apply them. I 
 think I explained all this in my instructions for creating ePub books using 
 Pages.
 
 Also, I suspect there are people on this and other lists who make their 
 living from training people, and they're reluctant to give away for free what 
 they can sell — and who can blame them? We all have to make a living.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
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Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[brandt]

I already did so, months ago, and that was what clinched the deal for me in 
the first place.


(voiceover is broken( otherwise known as voiceover on almost made me 
reconsider, but I decided to stick to my guns on this one.


Regards,

Brandt Steenkamp

MSN/Windows live: brandt...@live.com

Google talk: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net

To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short


If you haven't already done so, you might check out my pod casts on 
blindcooltech for my voiceover experiences.

On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:44 AM, brandt wrote:


Hi Tim,

As a current windows user, I have to say that negative podcasts such as 
Voiceover on will keep the windows users, windows users and drive newby 
mac users away. I am still going to swich, but almost decided not to after 
listening to the first 6 episodes of voiceover is broaken


Regards,

Brandt Steenkamp

MSN/Windows live: brandt...@live.com

Google talk: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
- Original Message - From: Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short


Hi Kevin,

I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little 
annoyed with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your 
comments below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or 
workarounds, your tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO. 
Much of this criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with 
the product itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of 
JAWS and are using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with 
a product that you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your 
conclusions seem rather tilted.


Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as 
such comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments 
would make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from 
much of the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you 
criticized with respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that 
many of these are not necessarily workarounds, but really just a 
different way of approaching things.  For the most part, we all have to 
realize that VO and the MacOS is not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so 
if we must do things a little differently, then so be it.


Now for some specifics:

• In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are 
inaccurate, simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say 
the word Cell anymore.


I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with 
your perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your 
over-critical tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the 
ease of use whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO. 
These inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
comments/suggestions from Anne.


Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a 
more professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's 
current state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.


Just my thoughts.

Later...

On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are 
compared.

http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com

If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps.


Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and 
audio  form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.


Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for 
APple to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for 
these issues to be addressed at a later point.


Kevin
,
On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:


You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
impressive. I can't

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[f10r14n]

Hello y' all,

As a matter of fact, I agree with both sides on some account. Before
you shoot me for it let me explain.
First, Kevin's side. He has been trying to transition to the mac, for
example for his school needs I think. For this, he has tried and
failed to do the tasks he could do on Windows. Of course this could be
due to infamiliarity with the mac system, however Mac is supposed to
be intuitive and easy to use. Then, why is it so hard to do what he is
trying to do?
Look, I understand that knowing a system is required before you can
actually claim it doesn't work the right way, but I think that six
months is a lot of time to learn voiceOver and I happen to know he has
been at this for hours before even considering doing the episode.
The way I see it on this thread is that he is requesting aid in fixing
his supposed inexperience , but all he gets back is flames about him
critisizing voiceOver without knowing it. If there's something that
scares away a newbie, it is that imnsho.

If i knew how to fix these issues, I would write them up. But
apparently noone here knows a foolproof solution to the issues
described both above and in the podcast. If i am wrong kindly correct
me but this is my current view on the situation.

Regards,
Florian

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Chris Snyder]

I too have noticed a rather gleefully sarcastic tone in a few different 
podcasts out there when windows users are trying to compare Voiceover to Jaws.
Some writers are even malicious. I'm not saying that criticism isn't warranted 
or worthwhile, but it should be constructive. Apple is the first main stream 
company who actually wants us to experience their OS in the same way as sighted 
people. I can't honestly tell sometimes if the snarky critics are afraid of 
change or if they just enjoy paying $1000 in blind taxes just so they can use a 
computer the same as a sighted person, (or having the state pay for them to do 
so.) Rather than snark, why not offer helpful suggestions or things they'd like 
to see improved rather than snarking at voiceover.
If any of those windows users are reading this, I want you all to understand 
something. I was an avid windows user. I switched to the Mac a year ago. For a 
long time, I used fusion every day to access things in windows I didn't yet 
know how to do. Today, I only ever access fusion maybe once every couple of 
months to pop onto a game server I used to frequent. Your snarky assertions 
aside, voiceover serves my needs perfectly. Further, I would never want to go 
back to windows. Snow Leopard and IOS4.2 has freed me far more than Jaws ever 
did.
 Access to technology and the things that occur in our daily lives is a civil 
right, my friends, not a privilege. It's worth remembering.
Friendly,
Chris

 

.

On Feb 2, 2011, at 11:44 PM, brandt wrote:

 Hi Tim,
 
 As a current windows user, I have to say that negative podcasts such as 
 Voiceover on will keep the windows users, windows users and drive newby mac 
 users away. I am still going to swich, but almost decided not to after 
 listening to the first 6 episodes of voiceover is broaken
 
 Regards,
 
 Brandt Steenkamp
 
 MSN/Windows live: brandt...@live.com
 
 Google talk: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com
 
 AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com
 
 Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
 - Original Message - From: Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:04 AM
 Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short
 
 
 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little annoyed 
 with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your comments 
 below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or workarounds, your 
 tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO. Much of this 
 criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with the product 
 itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of JAWS and are 
 using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a product that 
 you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your conclusions seem 
 rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of approaching 
 things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and the MacOS is 
 not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a little 
 differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are inaccurate, 
 simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say the word 
 Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with your 
 perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your over-critical 
 tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the ease of use 
 whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO. These 
 inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office

RE: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Andy Baracco]

I agree with what is stated below.  I have noticed this bias in other
comparisons that you have done.   If I didn't know better, I would say that
you are an FS plant.

Andy
 


I'm pretty good at drinkin beer.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Kilburn
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 10:05 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

Hi Kevin,

I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little
annoyed with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your
comments below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or
workarounds, your tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.
Much of this criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with
the product itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of
JAWS and are using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a
product that you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your
conclusions seem rather tilted.

Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such
comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would
make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of
the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with
respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are
not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of
approaching things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and
the MacOS is not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a
little differently, then so be it.

Now for some specifics:

. In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and
quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you
were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you
could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are
inaccurate, simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say
the word Cell anymore.

I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not
trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with
your perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your
over-critical tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the
ease of use whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.
These inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the
comments/suggestions from Anne.

Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments
with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't
figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more
familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more
professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current
state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.

Just my thoughts.

Later...

On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where
APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback ,
specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and
audio  form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of
VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple
to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these
issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those 
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats 
 pretty impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had 
 time, I could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a 
 windows screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like 
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover, 
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content 
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing 
 around document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn; 
 VoiceOver is silent

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Yuma Decaux]

It's his friend who sounds totally like an FS repp.


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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Kevin Chao]

It's been great having all the feedback regarding latest Voiceover On episode 
6. 

Yes, I'll admit that I've been using Windows  and JAWS for a while, more 
comfortable with it etc. I've been using Mac OS X and VoiceOver  since August 
2010. I'm trying to transition  from  Windows, Office and JAWS. As most may be 
aware, I'm in process of getting better handle on iWork. Please, if anyone can 
be as so kind as to review various task I'm trying to accomplish with Pages, 
Numbers and KeyNote; provide assistance, it would be greatly appreciated. 

I do look forward to with crowd sourcing, figuring iWOrk and VoiceOver out.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Yuma Decaux jamy...@gmail.com wrote:

 It's his friend who sounds totally like an FS repp.
 
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 MacVisionaries group.
 To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at 
 http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
 

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Kevin Chao]

Thanks TIm for stepping forward and providing such good feedback. I've set 
VoiceOver verbosity to low and modified speaking of table info to just content, 
where it still says word, cell. Please, if you can, assist me in getting up 
to speed with iWork and VoiceOver. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:04 AM, Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca wrote:

 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little annoyed 
 with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your comments 
 below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or workarounds, your 
 tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.  Much of this 
 criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with the product 
 itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of JAWS and are 
 using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a product that 
 you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your conclusions seem 
 rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of approaching 
 things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and the MacOS is 
 not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a little 
 differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are inaccurate, 
 simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say the word 
 Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with your 
 perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your over-critical 
 tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the ease of use 
 whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.  These 
 inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio  
 form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read 

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Carolyn Haas]

Hi Kevin:
I think it's a matter of taking the time to learn it before you rag on it 
that's at issue here.  I'm still having issues with coming over to the Mac from 
Windows, and I've been at it for over a year.  Still, it's not up to someone 
else to find and overcome my stumbling blocks.  Nor is it my right to criticize 
a system I don't fully know.  Sure, there are things I don't think are well 
addressed in terms of accessibility.  But, I'm the first to admit I'm not done 
learning yet and I'd fault my own lack of experience before deciding that the 
osx and it's accessibility features are deficient.  So, keep researching and 
information-gathering rather than being quick to point out supposed flaws.

Carolyn H
On Feb 3, 2011, at 10:53 AM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Thanks TIm for stepping forward and providing such good feedback. I've set 
 VoiceOver verbosity to low and modified speaking of table info to just 
 content, where it still says word, cell. Please, if you can, assist me in 
 getting up to speed with iWork and VoiceOver. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:04 AM, Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca wrote:
 
 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little 
 annoyed with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your 
 comments below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or 
 workarounds, your tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.  
 Much of this criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with 
 the product itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of 
 JAWS and are using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a 
 product that you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your 
 conclusions seem rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of 
 approaching things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and 
 the MacOS is not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a 
 little differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are 
 inaccurate, simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say 
 the word Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with 
 your perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your 
 over-critical tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the 
 ease of use whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.  
 These inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio 
  form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a 

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Kevin Chao]

Hi TIm, 

We understand  view on podcast  re: tone etc. Please stay on subject. After 
going through hoops, resetting VOIceOver several  times, doing secret 
handshake, stop VoiceOVer from  saying word, cell. THanks for that suggestion.

Why did you conveniently choose to ignore the rest of the issues raised in 
podcast? ? , 

Kevin
On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:04 AM, Tim Kilburn wrote:

 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little annoyed 
 with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your comments 
 below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or workarounds, your 
 tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.  Much of this 
 criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with the product 
 itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of JAWS and are 
 using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a product that 
 you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your conclusions seem 
 rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of approaching 
 things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and the MacOS is 
 not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a little 
 differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are inaccurate, 
 simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say the word 
 Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with your 
 perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your over-critical 
 tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the ease of use 
 whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.  These 
 inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio  
 form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is 

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Mike Arrigo]

If you haven't already done so, you might check out my pod casts on 
blindcooltech for my voiceover experiences.
On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:44 AM, brandt wrote:

 Hi Tim,
 
 As a current windows user, I have to say that negative podcasts such as 
 Voiceover on will keep the windows users, windows users and drive newby mac 
 users away. I am still going to swich, but almost decided not to after 
 listening to the first 6 episodes of voiceover is broaken
 
 Regards,
 
 Brandt Steenkamp
 
 MSN/Windows live: brandt...@live.com
 
 Google talk: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com
 
 AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com
 
 Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
 - Original Message - From: Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:04 AM
 Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short
 
 
 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little annoyed 
 with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your comments 
 below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or workarounds, your 
 tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO. Much of this 
 criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with the product 
 itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of JAWS and are 
 using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a product that 
 you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your conclusions seem 
 rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of approaching 
 things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and the MacOS is 
 not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a little 
 differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are inaccurate, 
 simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say the word 
 Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with your 
 perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your over-critical 
 tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the ease of use 
 whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO. These 
 inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared.
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps.
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio  
 form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple 
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin
 ,
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi Kevin,

Conveniently?  I take exception to that adverb.  I've been out of town for a 
few days, rather crazy at work and decided I'd still write my comments even 
though it was just before midnight.  I had noticed that Anne had, for the most 
part, responded to much of your podcast and therefore I felt that my one 
suggestion would suffice for now.

I will look into some of the other items over the weekend if time permits.  I 
will say here, though, that the stuttering behaviour you mention in Numbers is 
not unique to VO.  I've noticed JAWS do some stuttering of its own, not 
necessarily in Excel but for sure in Active Directory.  I haven't been able to 
narrow down the cause but, then again, I haven't bothered trying either as I 
don't feel it drastic enough to focus a lot of energy on.

Have a good one.

Later...

On 2011-02-03, at 11:58 AM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Hi TIm, 
 
 We understand  view on podcast  re: tone etc. Please stay on subject. After 
 going through hoops, resetting VOIceOver several  times, doing secret 
 handshake, stop VoiceOVer from  saying word, cell. THanks for that 
 suggestion.
 
 Why did you conveniently choose to ignore the rest of the issues raised in 
 podcast? ? , 
 
 Kevin
 On Feb 3, 2011, at 12:04 AM, Tim Kilburn wrote:
 
 Hi Kevin,
 
 I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little 
 annoyed with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your 
 comments below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or 
 workarounds, your tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.  
 Much of this criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with 
 the product itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of 
 JAWS and are using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a 
 product that you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your 
 conclusions seem rather tilted.
 
 Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
 comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
 make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
 the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
 respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
 not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of 
 approaching things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and 
 the MacOS is not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a 
 little differently, then so be it.
 
 Now for some specifics:
 
 • In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
 quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
 were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
 could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are 
 inaccurate, simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say 
 the word Cell anymore.
 
 I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
 trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with 
 your perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your 
 over-critical tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the 
 ease of use whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.  
 These inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
 comments/suggestions from Anne.
 
 Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
 with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
 figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
 familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
 professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
 state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.
 
 Just my thoughts.
 
 Later...
 
 On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio 
  form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had 

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi Kevin,

I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little annoyed 
with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your comments below 
suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or workarounds, your tone 
within the podcast itself is very critical of VO.  Much of this criticism, in 
my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with the product itself.  You and 
your partner appear well versed in the use of JAWS and are using that wealth of 
experience to attempt a comparison with a product that you do not have the same 
familiarity with.  Therefore, your conclusions seem rather tilted.

Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of the 
suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are not 
necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of approaching 
things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and the MacOS is not 
Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a little differently, 
then so be it.

Now for some specifics:

• In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you were 
in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you could stop 
it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are inaccurate, simply set 
your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say the word Cell anymore.

I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not trying 
to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with your 
perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your over-critical tone.  
Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the ease of use whereas that 
same level of comfort is not apparent for VO.  These inconsistencies are 
brought home considerably when I read the comments/suggestions from Anne.

Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments with 
phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't figured out 
how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more familiar than me 
with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more professional tone 
and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current state, I would not be 
inclined to listen to further episodes.

Just my thoughts.

Later...

On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
 APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
 http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com
 
 If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
 specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 
 
 Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio  
 form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.
 
 Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
 VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  
 to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
 issues to be addressed at a later point.
 
 Kevin 
 ,   
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:
 
 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
 Kevin
 
 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the 

Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[brandt]

Hi Tim,

As a current windows user, I have to say that negative podcasts such as 
Voiceover on will keep the windows users, windows users and drive newby 
mac users away. I am still going to swich, but almost decided not to after 
listening to the first 6 episodes of voiceover is broaken


Regards,

Brandt Steenkamp

MSN/Windows live: brandt...@live.com

Google talk: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

AIM: brandt.steenk...@gmail.com

Skype: brandt.steenkamp007
- Original Message - 
From: Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca

To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short


Hi Kevin,

I spent some time listening to your suggested podcast and am a little 
annoyed with your approach and attitude presented within it.  While your 
comments below suggest a welcomeness to constructive comments and/or 
workarounds, your tone within the podcast itself is very critical of VO. 
Much of this criticism, in my opinion, is due to a lack of experience with 
the product itself.  You and your partner appear well versed in the use of 
JAWS and are using that wealth of experience to attempt a comparison with a 
product that you do not have the same familiarity with.  Therefore, your 
conclusions seem rather tilted.


Now, I do appreciate your efforts in providing the podcast episodes, as such 
comparisons are useful.  Simply to eliminate the judgemental comments would 
make them more palatable from my prospective.  As I've noticed from much of 
the suggestions supplied by Anne Robertson, much of what you criticized with 
respect to VO is actually doable.  I might also add, that many of these are 
not necessarily workarounds, but really just a different way of 
approaching things.  For the most part, we all have to realize that VO and 
the MacOS is not Windows, nor do I want it to be, so if we must do things a 
little differently, then so be it.


Now for some specifics:

• In Numbers, you made fun of Numbers saying B4 with the word Cell and 
quipped about not needing to hear the word Cell since you knew that you 
were in a spreadsheet.  You also mentioned that there was no way that you 
could stop it from saying the word Cell.  In this case, you are 
inaccurate, simply set your default verbosity to Low and VO will not say 
the word Cell anymore.


I will readily admit that JAWS handles MS products very well and I'm not 
trying to say that VO handles iWork just as well, my objections are with 
your perceived expertise with VO during the comparison and your 
over-critical tone.  Your obvious comfort level with JAWS allows for the 
ease of use whereas that same level of comfort is not apparent for VO. 
These inconsistencies are brought home considerably when I read the 
comments/suggestions from Anne.


Maybe, instead of making such judgements, you could preface your comments 
with phrases like, In my experience with VO thus far, or  I haven't 
figured out how to do whatever yet, but there may be someone who's more 
familiar than me with it.  I feel that this would give your podcast a more 
professional tone and consequently, add validity to it.  In it's current 
state, I would not be inclined to listen to further episodes.


Just my thoughts.

Later...

On 2011-01-31, at 3:58 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where 
APple iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are 
compared.

http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com

If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , 
specifically on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps.


Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and 
audio  form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.


Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple 
to be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these 
issues to be addressed at a later point.


Kevin
,
On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:


You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
screenreader and office.
I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
despite its name.

On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:

And your point is?

I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

Skype Name:
barefootedray

On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:


Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.

Pages
* VoiceOver find

iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Kevin Chao]

Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content browsing/viewing, 
where VoiceOver falls short.

Pages
* VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
document and repeating find.
* Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.

Numbers
* Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
consistent.

KeyNote
* Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.

Kevin

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Kevin,

On 31 Jan 2011, at 21:02, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content 
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
I haven't experienced this. Did you use the standard find command (Cmd-F)? It 
highlights the text you search for.

 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
Sometimes you have to stop interacting and interact with the next page.

 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
This is a choice you can make in VoiceOver Utility. I have no problem of this 
sort with Numbers.

 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
What view are you talking about? If you mean Slide Only, then I can read the 
slides just fine.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Ray Foret Jr]

And your point is?

I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?


Sincerely, 
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

Skype Name:
barefootedray

On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content 
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
 Kevin
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 MacVisionaries group.
 To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Ben Mustill-Rose]

You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
screenreader and office.
I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
despite its name.

On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?

 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?


 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

 Skype Name:
 barefootedray

 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:

 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.

 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.

 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.

 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.

 Kevin

 --
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 MacVisionaries group.
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 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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 http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.


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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Kevin Chao]

Please have a listen to latest, episode 6 of VOiceOVer On podcast, where APple 
iWork and  Microsoft Office screen reader accessibility are compared. 
http://VoiceOverOn.podbean.com

If any are aware of  work-arounds, -, solutions or  any feedback , specifically 
on content; please provide it with   very specific  steps. 

Apple Accessibility are made aware of all these issues, both text and audio  
form, which they are more than fine with  the podcast.

Goal of VOiceOver On podcast is  to highlight   the good, bad and ugly of 
VoiceOver. THis allows for people to be aware. More importantly, for APple  to 
be aware of issues in a variety of formats, which will allow for these issues 
to be addressed at a later point.

Kevin 
,   
On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote:

 You know, I'm not exactly the biggest apple fan on here, but if those
 are all the bugs that are present in iWork, I have to say thats pretty
 impressive. I can't right now, but I'm sure that if I had time, I
 could come up with many more bugs that one could find using a windows
 screenreader and office.
 I'm all for talking about a products weeknesses, but it seems like
 your podcast exists purely to expose the bad points about voiceover,
 despite its name.
 
 On 31/01/2011, Ray Foret Jr rfore...@att.net wrote:
 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
 Kevin
 
 --
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 MacVisionaries group.
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 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Ricardo Walker]

What a weir comment in my opinion.

I think his point was pretty obvious.  He ran into some things that lessoned 
the experience of iWorks.  He then posted to bring attention to what he found 
to illuminate these things and possibly confirm them or find solutions to them. 
 He was also just stating his findings.  No different then what you did with 
the latest version of skype.  Or am I wrong?

Ricardo Walker
rwalker...@gmail.com
Twitter, Skype, and AIM: rwalker296
Google Voice: 1-646-450-2197



On Jan 31, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote:

 And your point is?
 
 I assume you've contacted the Apple accessibility people about this?
 
 
 Sincerely, 
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
 
 Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
 
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
 On Jan 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content 
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
 Kevin
 
 -- 
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 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: iWOrk: VoiceOver Falls Short

[Scott Ford]

Hello yall,
 I had heard some time back that the new version was going to be out 
any day.  That was at least three months ago.  I know that apple is really 
tight lipped but is there any new info on a release date.
Scott  


On Jan 31, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Anne Robertson wrote:

 Hello Kevin,
 
 On 31 Jan 2011, at 21:02, Kevin Chao wrote:
 
 Below are various aspects  of iWork, when it comes to content 
 browsing/viewing, where VoiceOver falls short.
 
 Pages
 * VoiceOver find doesn't ' always work, which requires arrowing around
 I haven't experienced this. Did you use the standard find command (Cmd-F)? It 
 highlights the text you search for.
 
 document and repeating find.
 * Going from end of page to next page, a sound indicates page turn;
 VoiceOver is silent and doesn't read first line of following page.
 
 Sometimes you have to stop interacting and interact with the next page.
 
 Numbers
 * Navigating  around, Voiceover will double/triple speak cell
 coordinates, speak word cell and order in which info is read isn't
 consistent.
 
 This is a choice you can make in VoiceOver Utility. I have no problem of this 
 sort with Numbers.
 
 KeyNote
 * Slide show view, interact with table, VoiceOver doesn't see slide
 content. Doesn't matter if it's a KeyNote document or PowerPoint 2003.
 
 What view are you talking about? If you mean Slide Only, then I can read the 
 slides just fine.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Anne
 
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