Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
Also worth noting that we have some Zaurus people around and I/we did look at OE for Mer but felt that we wanted more compatibility with maemo etc to allow access to things like Extras. @David: Its probably *very* premature for me to be speaking at this point about this - but I fail to understand why stuff like Extras should be a problem with OE. IMHO, OE is designed to accomodate bringing new packages easily - making it just a matter writing a small bb recipe - if the distro confs are well-written. But as I said, I probably don't get your point because I haven't reached that stage in my work as yet. Regards, -- Kirtika Ruchandani Sophomore Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology, Madras ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kirtika Ruchandani kirt...@gmail.com wrote: Also worth noting that we have some Zaurus people around and I/we did look at OE for Mer but felt that we wanted more compatibility with maemo etc to allow access to things like Extras. @David: Its probably *very* premature for me to be speaking at this point about this - but I fail to understand why stuff like Extras should be a problem with OE. IMHO, OE is designed to accomodate bringing new packages easily - making it just a matter writing a small bb recipe - if the distro confs are well-written. But as I said, I probably don't get your point because I haven't reached that stage in my work as yet. Debian's packaging strategy if different from OE's in the sense that the packaging system is intrusive. Therefore a good debian packages contains a source .deb package and the package can be created using debian tools. Many packages created for Maemo are some mix of proper debian packages , packages without corresponding sources and packages that with corresponding sources that can not be recompiled easily because the source package was only created as part of the debianisation. If the OE port is to support the extras packages it needs to support the binary packages as-is(binary). To be able to do that the OE build would need to have the same base package names as the Maemo packages(not such a big problem) but binary compatibility clearly would not fit in the OE strategy where the packages can be created for different architectures or optimized for different processors. In short it most certainly is hard to achieve this. The easy thing is to find the sources and create a bb file for it and that is extra work. So it is hard to make use of all the great packages created to maemo-proper. Mer is very close to achieving that goal Greetings Regards, -- Kirtika Ruchandani Sophomore Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology, Madras ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
On Apr 25, 2009, at 13:34, Kees Jongenburger wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kirtika Ruchandani kirt...@gmail.com wrote: Also worth noting that we have some Zaurus people around and I/we did look at OE for Mer but felt that we wanted more compatibility with maemo etc to allow access to things like Extras. @David: Its probably *very* premature for me to be speaking at this point about this - but I fail to understand why stuff like Extras should be a problem with OE. IMHO, OE is designed to accomodate bringing new packages easily - making it just a matter writing a small bb recipe - if the distro confs are well-written. But as I said, I probably don't get your point because I haven't reached that stage in my work as yet. Debian's packaging strategy if different from OE's in the sense that the packaging system is intrusive. Well, I am not sure I agree with you here. Debian has designed packages to be un-intrusive. In fact debian requires pristine upstream source and only adds a debian directory. Then you build the deb on your system, or it gets built on debian's architecture and you install the deb for your architecture, but you can always choose to build from source with apt-get source. I don't see how this is intrusive - in fact, it is one of the least intrusive types of packaging especially compared to an RPM. Therefore a good debian packages contains a source .deb package and the package can be created using debian tools. The resulting deb package built from source is a binary. Many packages created for Maemo are some mix of proper debian packages , packages without corresponding sources and packages that with corresponding sources that can not be recompiled easily because the source package was only created as part of the debianisation. Maemo policy currently does not _require_ sources to accompany a binary deb. Perhaps it should require sources to be uploaded with the deb? If the OE port is to support the extras packages it needs to support the binary packages as-is(binary). To be able to do that the OE build would need to have the same base package names as the Maemo packages(not such a big problem) but binary compatibility clearly would not fit in the OE strategy where the packages can be created for different architectures or optimized for different processors. Not sure what you mean here Kees. Debian supports eight architectures officially, no reason why the maemo packages couldn't do the same, at least theoretically. We'd have to have the build sources from Nokia and a host of architectures to build them on, but still, it could be done. In short it most certainly is hard to achieve this. The easy thing is to find the sources and create a bb file for it and that is extra work. So it is hard to make use of all the great packages created to maemo-proper. Mer is very close to achieving that goal Mer is an excellent solution to this problem. Plus it has a hard working, dedicated community already with a proven, released product. This is what should be supported and extended IMHO. Jeremiah ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Jeremiah Foster jerem...@jeremiahfoster.com wrote: On Apr 25, 2009, at 13:34, Kees Jongenburger wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kirtika Ruchandani kirt...@gmail.com wrote: Also worth noting that we have some Zaurus people around and I/we did look at OE for Mer but felt that we wanted more compatibility with maemo etc to allow access to things like Extras. Debian's packaging strategy if different from OE's in the sense that the packaging system is intrusive. Well, I am not sure I agree with you here. Debian has designed packages to be un-intrusive. In fact debian requires pristine upstream source and only adds a debian directory. Then you build the deb on your system, or it gets built on debian's architecture and you install the deb for your architecture, but you can always choose to build from source with apt-get source. I don't see how this is intrusive - in fact, it is one of the least intrusive types of packaging especially compared to an RPM. Therefore a good debian packages contains a source .deb package and the package can be created using debian tools. The resulting deb package built from source is a binary. Many packages created for Maemo are some mix of proper debian packages , packages without corresponding sources and packages that with corresponding sources that can not be recompiled easily because the source package was only created as part of the debianisation. Maemo policy currently does not _require_ sources to accompany a binary deb. Perhaps it should require sources to be uploaded with the deb? I would feel even safer if the auto builder was a requirement so we know the source and binaries match. If the OE port is to support the extras packages it needs to support the binary packages as-is(binary). To be able to do that the OE build would need to have the same base package names as the Maemo packages(not such a big problem) but binary compatibility clearly would not fit in the OE strategy where the packages can be created for different architectures or optimized for different processors. Not sure what you mean here Kees. Debian supports eight architectures officially, no reason why the maemo packages couldn't do the same, at least theoretically. We'd have to have the build sources from Nokia and a host of architectures to build them on, but still, it could be done. Practice however is that developers neither have access to the host platform (when you are not cross compiling) nor are able to change root components. We must be talking about different things (Is Cortex-A8 a different arch in your terms?) In short it most certainly is hard to achieve this. The easy thing is to find the sources and create a bb file for it and that is extra work. So it is hard to make use of all the great packages created to maemo-proper. Mer is very close to achieving that goal Mer is an excellent solution to this problem. Plus it has a hard working, dedicated community already with a proven, released product. This is what should be supported and extended IMHO. Indeed I think that given Mer current approach it has great potential. so Yes we should try to support Mer as targeted architecture is that the right term for you? or do you think Mer and Maemo are the same ? It this not something to discuss on developers list? Greetings ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:13 PM, David Greaves da...@dgreaves.com wrote: Also worth noting that we have some Zaurus people around and I/we did look at OE for Mer but felt that we wanted more compatibility with maemo etc to allow access to things like Extras. There would be a *lot* of work in just repackaging software before you even start to hack at any code. The benefits of having the code really ready to be hacked and ported are huge. and I therefore really hope I can help on this project. Mer is an other excellent and but really different project with more focus on end-user usabilty v.s core reusability :p Greetings David Qole wrote: I'm sure this is obvious, but I just want to be sure: Please also look at the Mer project, since they are trying to build a Maemo system, using only the open source pieces of Maemo. They are building their system on Ubuntu, instead of OE, but their project might offer insight into the problems you will encounter. http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Mer On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Kirtika Ruchandani kirt...@gmail.com mailto:kirt...@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone, I am Kirtika Ruchandani, a Maemo-GSoC student this year working on integrating Maemo in Open Embedded(OE) by creating a maemo image for the N800/N810 in OE. The project aim is to get a file-system image of maemo built in OE for the N800/N810 with all the Maemo software stack components - including the hildon UI environment. The work done for this will also include making the platform itself portable - i.e. being able to port Maemo components for a device over a given base, say angstrom. I will be looking at the Poky port of Maemo, previous work done by my mentor Florian Boor on this project, Mamona (which supports N800 in OE) and Angstrom (to be studied as a base) to go about the porting work. I am a second year under-graduate student at Indian Institute of Technology, Madras (IIT-M) in India and my IRC and garage nickname is rkirti. -- Kirtika Ruchandani Sophomore Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology, Madras http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/~rkirti/maemo-oe/ http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/%7Erkirti/maemo-oe/ -- Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once... ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
This means the compromises inherent in using .ipkg vs .deb hurt more than they help... hence Mer's Ubunutu/OBS decision. OE can equally build .deb's rather than .ipk's I used the Maemo target a while back to build a few things (mainly Octave and deps) and it was nice and painless, except for the fact that some of the main dependencies had slightly different names (which can confuse dpkg on the device when you try to install packages after these ones). I think the OE target is the tighter space of true embedded environments - think Qtopia and memory/storage measured in 10s/100s MB. OE is just meta-data, it can target whatever you want. I agree that thus far it as tended to target low memory devices (mainly as that's all that has been around thus far). Mer, maemo (and hildon) are more aimed at devices (like the internet tablets) which have no problems running 'real' OSes but which benefit hugely from close power management and UI enhancements. Here we use Xorg (and even OpenGL) and measure RAM/storage in 100sMB/GBs. I see no reason why OE + bitbake couldn't be used to build such images, except that work has already been done on the Debian build environment and that afair the support for building for and from Debian style files is still in its infancy. I'm fully behind this project, I did a lot of work on and with the Zaurus and thoroughly enjoyed using OE + bitbake. Cheers, Simon ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
Kees Jongenburger wrote: Mer is an other excellent and but really different project with more focus on end-user usabilty v.s core reusability :p Just to get any misconceptions out of the way - Mer actually does focus on core reusability, - we want Hildon and such to be portable, and preferably straight from upstream, so we don't have any deltas to them, - we have no interest in maintaining our own version of the Hildon platform, other than building it for the distribution. You can see http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Common_packages for our current status. Ideally we should have most packages being same version, or with only deltas for Mer specific functionality or compatibility. We work on Mer not just to make Mer better, but to give the community a possibility to make valuable contributions to the Maemo platform and a place to experiment with new ideas, eventually easily adaptable to the consumer-targeted Maemo OS. When Fremantle beta comes out we will submit patches to Hildon and Maemo software in order to improve portability (we have over 20+ weeks of work to contribute) - such as removing Scratchbox-isms, assumptions on existence of packages because they're in Scratchbox devkit, and other things. This will improve the ability for anyone to take the Hildon packages straight from Maemo and use them in their build/packaging system, be it OE, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, whereever. I'm personally excited about the OpenEmbedded GSoC project, as it will help putting the Maemo platform on more devices and platforms where Mer for instance doesn't fit in so easily, and I'll do my part to help rkirti with her project - with the knowledge gained through burying ourselves deep in Maemo packages for over 20 weeks. Stskeeps/Carsten V. Munk Mer developer. ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Carsten V. Munk c...@cs.au.dk wrote: You can see http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Common_packages There's a minor typo in this URL. It should be: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Common_Packages -stephen ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
Re: [GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
I'm sure this is obvious, but I just want to be sure: Please also look at the Mer project, since they are trying to build a Maemo system, using only the open source pieces of Maemo. They are building their system on Ubuntu, instead of OE, but their project might offer insight into the problems you will encounter. http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Mer On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:33 AM, Kirtika Ruchandani kirt...@gmail.comwrote: Hello everyone, I am Kirtika Ruchandani, a Maemo-GSoC student this year working on integrating Maemo in Open Embedded(OE) by creating a maemo image for the N800/N810 in OE. The project aim is to get a file-system image of maemo built in OE for the N800/N810 with all the Maemo software stack components - including the hildon UI environment. The work done for this will also include making the platform itself portable - i.e. being able to port Maemo components for a device over a given base, say angstrom. I will be looking at the Poky port of Maemo, previous work done by my mentor Florian Boor on this project, Mamona (which supports N800 in OE) and Angstrom (to be studied as a base) to go about the porting work. I am a second year under-graduate student at Indian Institute of Technology, Madras (IIT-M) in India and my IRC and garage nickname is rkirti. -- Kirtika Ruchandani Sophomore Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology, Madras http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/~rkirti/maemo-oe/http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/%7Erkirti/maemo-oe/ ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community -- enthusiast, n. One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent and imaginative person. ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
[GSoC 09] - Integrating Maemo in Open Embedded
Hello everyone, I am Kirtika Ruchandani, a Maemo-GSoC student this year working on integrating Maemo in Open Embedded(OE) by creating a maemo image for the N800/N810 in OE. The project aim is to get a file-system image of maemo built in OE for the N800/N810 with all the Maemo software stack components - including the hildon UI environment. The work done for this will also include making the platform itself portable - i.e. being able to port Maemo components for a device over a given base, say angstrom. I will be looking at the Poky port of Maemo, previous work done by my mentor Florian Boor on this project, Mamona (which supports N800 in OE) and Angstrom (to be studied as a base) to go about the porting work. I am a second year under-graduate student at Indian Institute of Technology, Madras (IIT-M) in India and my IRC and garage nickname is rkirti. -- Kirtika Ruchandani Sophomore Computer Science and Engineering Indian Institute of Technology, Madras http://www.cse.iitm.ac.in/~rkirti/maemo-oe/ ___ maemo-community mailing list maemo-community@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
