Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 22:56 +0200, ext Christian Pernegger wrote: I am just telling some truths that others should know. I'm with you insofar as - setting up the developent environment was a bitch [zap] A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue about cross-compiling or embedded development. Yes, I think this is one of the reasons why. The fact that the environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty, it's a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from trivial anyway. But please, while you criticize nokia remember a lot of us are just as much a part of the community as you are. It's been said earlier too - look at Sardine, and see how things are being worked on. Perhaps slower than you wish, but I also wish it happened faster. There's just a LOT of stuff that has dependencies on how the daily progress happens, and stuff does not change overnight for that reason. :-( //Tuomas -- A: No Q: Should i quote this on the top? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Sources and documentation (was: Future features for Maemo Desktop)
On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 16:24 -0300, ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: Bah... My future features are more realistic: -source codes; https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/ http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/ http://repository.maemo.org/pool/sardine/ You can also request the source codes on CD-ROM as per GPL. The offer naturally only covers the software that is not proprietary. I am not going argue with rants about whether $proprietary_application should or is going to be open sourced or not. Today things are the way they are. However if you could provide constructive comments about how open sourcing more (and which specifically) things would benefit Nokia (this is not free as in beer for us I'm afraid) I'm sure the discussion would be more fruitful. -more reliable API docs; -more reliable SDK docs; How are they not reliable? Missing something? What? Inaccurate? Where? Again, constructive comment are more likely to get something done. You could for example file bugs in https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ or add notes to http://maemo.org/maemowiki/DocumentationWanted . We can't work on the problems if we don't know what the real problems are. Please keep in mind that this is the first time Nokia has done open source on this scale. We're still taking baby steps. But we're willing to learn, and feedback from the community is appreciated. Unfortunately rants are rarely helping. What comes to console applications and such, I'd say that's subjective. I just can't see the market for such device these days (everyone wants flashy eye candy), but then again, I'm just a technical person so what do I know. We know about your concerns regarding Ogg (and probably BT and GStreamer as well -- I should probably poke the people in charge.) More often than not there are good reasons (priorities, resources, cost/benefit, ...) for these things, we're not doing this to spite you. It's just that some things are difficult to communicate outside, for whatever reason. -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 01:00 +0200, ext Hartmut Henkel wrote: Just to add here: i have one of these Nokias with the broken LCD (vertical stripes). Actually i don't even believe that the LCD is broken, it looks like a wrong setting of the LCD (with the old HP pocket calculators you could tweak the contrast by pressing ON and +/-). I have replaced the screen component of one such striped one and it worked with the new screen, no software changes. That sounds to me like broken hardware rather than a software bug. //T -- A: No Q: Should i quote this on the top? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On Aug 29, 2006, at 12:22, Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki) wrote: The fact that the environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty, it's a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from trivial anyway. Is GTK from Maemo expected to compile (for the host itself) on desktop Linux or Mac OS X? What about Hildon? How much work would be required for making Python development possible on any *nix style platform with an X server by compiling GTK and Hildon and their Python wrappers for the hosting architecture and installing them in a non-conventional directory prefix to prevent conflicts with the usual GTK installation? (BTW, it would be nice if the source download page documented the right svn incantations for pulling the source corresponding to the OS2006 release.) -- Henri Sivonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] SDK vs. device: libSM and libICE
I might be missing something, but I think this is a bug in the SDK: In the SDK, libSM and libICE are available, while on the device, they are not. For example VLC's configure.ac script uses AC_PATH_XTRA() from /usr/share/autoconf/autoconf/libs.m4, which correctly finds libSM and libICE in the SDK and adds them to the libs to link to the x11 plugin. On the device of course the x11 plugin will then fail to load because the libs cannot be found. I think the libs should be removed from the SDK (or at least be made removable). For that to happen, some dependencies would have to be resolved, ie xlibs-dev. cheers, Christian Henz ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Sources and documentation
I know If I rebuild all from the source that I wont have Opera. Is there anything else besides Opera that is not at the repositories? Thanks -bob Tommi Komulainen wrote: On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 16:24 -0300, ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: Bah... My future features are more realistic: -source codes; https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/ http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/ http://repository.maemo.org/pool/sardine/ You can also request the source codes on CD-ROM as per GPL. The offer naturally only covers the software that is not proprietary. I am not going argue with rants about whether $proprietary_application should or is going to be open sourced or not. Today things are the way they are. However if you could provide constructive comments about how open sourcing more (and which specifically) things would benefit Nokia (this is not free as in beer for us I'm afraid) I'm sure the discussion would be more fruitful. -more reliable API docs; -more reliable SDK docs; How are they not reliable? Missing something? What? Inaccurate? Where? Again, constructive comment are more likely to get something done. You could for example file bugs in https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ or add notes to http://maemo.org/maemowiki/DocumentationWanted . We can't work on the problems if we don't know what the real problems are. Please keep in mind that this is the first time Nokia has done open source on this scale. We're still taking baby steps. But we're willing to learn, and feedback from the community is appreciated. Unfortunately rants are rarely helping. What comes to console applications and such, I'd say that's subjective. I just can't see the market for such device these days (everyone wants flashy eye candy), but then again, I'm just a technical person so what do I know. We know about your concerns regarding Ogg (and probably BT and GStreamer as well -- I should probably poke the people in charge.) More often than not there are good reasons (priorities, resources, cost/benefit, ...) for these things, we're not doing this to spite you. It's just that some things are difficult to communicate outside, for whatever reason. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
I agree with Alessandro in most of his points, but imho you (Alessandro) should be far more reasonable and polite because that's not the correct way for anyone to put their issues/suggestions/critics.It's sad that such a rich opinion had to be written in such terms. If you're unhappy with your Nokia 770, sell/destroy/give it. But please don't try to convince anyone that you were forced or taken in mistake to buy it, ok? Cause we all know what we can and what we can't do ATM with this device, but we (the people who follows this list, irc channels, etc) see everyday the efforts made by Nokia employees so that this product keeps getting better and better each day. - Paulo Pires ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Sources and documentation
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 07:38:16AM -0400, Bob Herrmann wrote: I know If I rebuild all from the source that I wont have Opera. Is there anything else besides Opera that is not at the repositories? As far as I can tell *all* of the standard apps (clock, calculator, notes, audio player, all the games, etc.) are closed-source. At least I cannot find them in http://repository.maemo.org/dists/mistral/free/source/Sources Marius Gedminas -- If something has not yet gone wrong then it would ultimately have been beneficial for it to go wrong. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Notes/Text editor
Hi, There have been some mails about the Notes text editor so I thought to mention that my own preferred Notepad clone is Leafpad. I don't need HTML subset (neither in my mails nor) when editing the text files on the device, so Leafpad is just fine. Especially as it's 100% Open Source, quite lightweight and its Debian package builds just fine for Maemo. Attached are instructions on porting Leafpad to Maemo. - Eero Clueful developer test == This test determines the competance level of a maemo-developer list participant. During the test you port, build and install Leafpad text editor to the N770 device. The participant may ask questions from the other developers on the Maemo mailing-list during the test. If the mails trigger non-social moron detector, the participant fails the test. If the developers list / Maemo SDK people are not able to help the participant to install the package succesfully to the device, the developers-list fails the test. The test ends with honours when the Leafpad package is succesfully installed to the device, user can run (multiple instances of) it and switch between the editor and the Desktop. Before the test: - Install ARMEL Scratchbox development environment as described in the Maemo 2.0 documentation Good luck! The test: - # download the source packages for Leafpad from a Debian repo to some dir # inside Sbox (the sources were found through packages.debian.org site): mkdir test; cd test wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9-2.dsc wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9.orig.tar.gz wget http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/leafpad/leafpad_0.8.9-2.diff.gz # extract the sources: dpkg-source -x leafpad_0.8.9-2.dsc cd leafpad-0.8.9 # install leafpad build deps (you can see these from the debian/control file) apt-get update fakeroot apt-get install cdbs debhelper pkg-config libgtk2.0-dev gnome-pkg-tools # resize icon to be suitable for Task Navigator, needs ImageMagick # (you can install use ImageMagick outside the Sbox): convert -geometry '26x26!' leafpad.png tmp.png mv tmp.png leafpad.png # Modify the package so that it integrates with Task Navigator # and Application Installer: # 1) leafpad.desktop.in: # - add /usr/bin/ path to the Exec field leafpad binary name and # remove any args to it (Exec=/usr/bin/leafpad) # - remove the .png from the Icon field icon name (Icon=leafpad) # 2) Makefile.am: # - change the desktopdir to $(datadir)/applications/hildon # - change the pixmapsdir to $(datadir)/icons/hicolor/26x26/hildon # 3) debian/control: # - set Section field to value accepted by application manager # (Section=user/editors) # (feel free to file bugs about above incompatibilities) # Re-generate the Makefiles from the updated Makefile.am aclocal automake # After install, make sure that the icon cache is updated # (the same should also be in the postrm file). If the package # would already have a postinst file, just add the cache update # line to it: echo #!/bin/sh debian/leafpad.postinst echo gtk-update-icon-cache /usr/share/icons/hicolor debian/leafpad.postinst echo #DEBHELPER# debian/leafpad.postinst # Build the package: fakeroot debian/rules binary # copy the package to the device: cp ../leafpad_0.8.9-2_armel.deb mounted device MMC # Use the Application Installer to install Leafpad package # and test it Advanced topics === * Modify the sources so that: - The menubar is removed and menus open from the titlebar to save some screen space - Application acts as a D-BUS service and is launched by Task Navigator as such - Application is installed as the default mime-viewer for *.txt files For more info, see the maemo.org documentation * Update the original Debian package so that it's diff contains your modifications and updated changelog (hints: use dch -i to update the changelog and note that dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot which normally generates a new diff, doesn't like about changes to binary files like icons). For more info, see the Debian information Links = * Maemo/SDK 2.0: http://maemo.org/downloads/releases.html * Debian New Maintainers' Guide: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html * Debian Developer's Reference, Chapter 6 - Best Packaging Practices: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch-best-pkging-practices.en.html * (Old) documentation on GNU Autotools: http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/autobook/autobook_toc.html leafpad-shot.png Description: PNG image ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop
Hi, On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein? http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/ You can always use apt-get source command. I am sure that five minutes of hack and I would achieve my goals... Good luck. -- Eduardo de Barros Lima INdT - Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:05:41AM -0300, Eduardo de Barros Lima wrote: On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein? http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/ You can always use apt-get source command. MaemoPad and Notes are two different applications. Marius Gedminas -- Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
ext Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a colony of ants... I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, so, Nokia is using it, isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs could be covered by releasing the sources... First I need to point out, I dont like the tone of this message as has been already pointed out in responses to this thread. As for the sources, from a legal stand point all required source is available through the maemo repository. http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo2.0rc22/free/source/ Beside that if you check the About Product tab in ControlPanel-Device you will find out how you can request source code (which nokia is legally bound to provide) CD from Nokia I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for my bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work properly (try to change font color). I would appreciate if you could attach a log or some more information or file a bug in https://maemo.org/bugzilla Usually we do run some round of test to atleast the example codes refered to in the tutorial. Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for screen keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys? (by the way, I made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my Linux x86 box that works as planned, so I am sure that's not me...) I think more of your agression is directed towards maemopad and your inability to modify and achieve your objectives. If that is the case, then I am quite sure the community would be happy to help you out, if you would be a bit more constructive, rather than a shot everything down kind of attitude. Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!... It´s a piece of crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications of my interest... There´s no surprise that REAL AND USEFUL APPLICATIONS never appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions) Well i think that is your perception (and in that you in your own right maybe justified). I myself love various adventure games not available for the device either, so I guess I would be justified in my own right to shoot everything down too MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007: Forget about Hildon, forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim, python (python for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it, there´s no Python version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly updated) and UNICODE support, would be great if CURSES is available too, or better, with a good framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia Nokia 770 OS 2006 introduces the debian package management, so if thats the way you want to go, I will certainly not come in your way. You could have asked the community to tell you a way to achieve that. I am quite sure, you can gain root and open your favourite xterm and just apt-get remove packages you dont like. You are free to do all experimentation you like at your own risk. Please do post the findings of your results on the mailing list, I of one would be quite interested to know the result. There are also other tools and documentation available on maemo which talks about customizing and building your own rootfs and kernel etc. budget and make the plataform usefull and with lots of space... Besides, with a real open source OS and simple developing tools I would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above are CONSOLE and X11 programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If you are a Hildon I think there has been many flame wars about QT/GTK+, so I would not comment anymore. Maemo and Nokia 770(OS2006) is a GTK+ based device and application development environment. Either you accept that or not thats your choice. By all means experiment with different toolkits and technologies, and if they are done in constructive manner, I am quite sure, you would still find this developer list quite willing to listen and help. developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released applications are Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's the weakspot of Nokia 770... There are very good reasons for us to extend and customize GTK+ which together with desktop components and services we call hildon. We are as a goal trying to push changes to mainstream (some will be accepted, some wont) but you can follow the status on http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk26Contributions Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my useless Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have Nokia, believe me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of development of a Win32 x86 platform, forget the linux, open source and free for all stuff, Nokia 770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed off... I really bought Nokia 770 for my personal business purpose, confident about the debia based OS... Hacks are good when works and when you have control (sources),
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
ext Christian Pernegger wrote: I am just telling some truths that others should know. I'm with you insofar as - setting up the developent environment was a bitch Could you please send me why ? - Setting up ScratchBox ??? - Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ? - Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr? - Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ??? I am asking you, so we improve it. - it still doesn't give you the same environment as a real 770 apparently In general scratchbox as already pointed out provides a chrooted environment, which is not the same as in device development. The armel rootstrap in SB should atleast provide the same compiled binaries etc as that on the device, so as to provide properly cross compiled binaries for the device. - C++ plus custom framework doesn't exactly lend itself to RAD, maybe a scripting language (python, ruby, whatever) or even Java would have been a better choice. A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue about cross-compiling or embedded development. I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor non-PC devices is different. Devesh C. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Christian Pernegger wrote: I am just telling some truths that others should know. I'm with you insofar as - setting up the developent environment was a bitch Could you please send me why ? - Setting up ScratchBox ??? - Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ? - Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr? - Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ??? I am asking you, so we improve it. It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of installing? HTH, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
ext Andrew Barr wrote: On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: ... While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense, e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here. What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html (section Plugin development) which describes how to enable ogg-vorbis Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms. I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have tried to do with maemo is - provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and future devices (SB, rootstraps etc) - provide (as a priority) to enable application development - enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a debian based component package management system Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them. There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs Devesh This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML. To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so great doesn't work here because the community is relegated in large part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia takes it up. These are just my impressions from informal observation and occasional participation in this endeavor. If you think I'm way off base or crazy or something, please feel free to tell me or ignore me. -- Andrew Barr | http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/ http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/%7Eandrew/ Buzzword detected (core dumped) -- seen on linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
Title: Best Regards, Devesh, the following commentary from Andrew is somewhat disconcerting since it suggests that Nokia is somehow holding back on openness: "I have to say Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness" Assuming that his disappointment is warranted, what has held Nokia back in terms of "complete openness" in the context suggested by the above comment? Is there some commercial concern that, by being more "open", that Nokia will be somehow more vulnerable to competitors developing similar hardware that runs the same software platform as the N770? It is not even clear to me that it is legally possible under the terms of licensing for Linux based software to take the parts of Linux that one likes but to hold other parts back in order to retain a competitive advantage in the marketplace. Best Regards, John Holmblad Acadia Secure Networks GSEC Gold, GCWN Gold, GGSC-0100, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM (H) 703 620 0672 (M) 703 407 2278 (F) 703 620 5388 (O) 410 849 2376 (has voicemail to email) primary email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] backup email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www page for texting: www.vtext.com/users/jholmblad text email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Andrew Barr wrote: On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: ... While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense, e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here. What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html (section Plugin development) which describes how to enable ogg-vorbis Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms. I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have tried to do with maemo is - provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and future devices (SB, rootstraps etc) - provide (as a priority) to enable application development - enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a debian based component package management system Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them. There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs Devesh This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML. To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia takes it up. These are just my impressions from informal observation and
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, 2006-29-08 at 16:50 +0300, Devesh Kothari wrote: In general I am happy to learn from your frustrations to improve maemo and maemo development experience. Devesh This is great. Please provide information about Bluetooth headset support. Is Nokia working on this? When will it be available? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Compiling hildon or gtk (was: Nokia 770 sources...)
On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 13:31 +0300, ext Henri Sivonen wrote: Is GTK from Maemo expected to compile (for the host itself) on desktop Linux or Mac OS X? What about Hildon? Currently maemo gtk+ requires one feature from glib, namely caching of gtkrc as bytecode-ish format. (It's in glib/gscanner.[ch], look for cache.) hildon-libs and hildon-fm require multiple extra symbols exported from modified gtk+ (most of them should have other than gtk_ prefix, but not all.) It is on my todo list to improve our documentation about the dependencies and changes to widgets. One of the longer term goals is to be able to build Hildon widgets on top of stock gtk+. I do not yet have a schedule planned, though. How much work would be required for making Python development possible on any *nix style platform with an X server by compiling GTK and Hildon and their Python wrappers for the hosting architecture and installing them in a non-conventional directory prefix to prevent conflicts with the usual GTK installation? That would be an interesting exercise. I believe Murray Cumming has been doing something close to this with jhbuild, but I haven't checked which packages are included in the module sets. But if python bindings are included, it should be as simple as 'jhbuild build python-hildon' if memory serves. -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Sources in svn (was: Nokia 770 sources...)
On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 13:31 +0300, ext Henri Sivonen wrote: (BTW, it would be nice if the source download page documented the right svn incantations for pulling the source corresponding to the OS2006 release.) I would think in the developer section would be more appropriate? Though the svn structure is rather chaotic at the moment. It's trying to satisfy requests from too many parties, some of whom are not even touching the repository as it turns out. I guess we should sit down again and collect interesting and relevant use cases, like 'Where do I find the latest version of foo?' and 'Where do I find the sources for maemo-af-desktop version that was in the first IT2006 software update?' etc. and then figure out what kind of repository structure would support those cases. Or just document existing practices... -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop
Marius Gedminas wrote: On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 10:05:41AM -0300, Eduardo de Barros Lima wrote: On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein? http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/ You can always use apt-get source command. MaemoPad and Notes are two different applications. Marius Gedminas ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers Ola, As I see it the problem is this: On http://www.maemo.org/platform/docs/tutorials/Maemo_tutorial.html#differences we have: There are plenty of other small differences, *some* of which are explained in this tutorial. (my emphasis). Now the only way to change that *some* into an *all* is to give us (the community) either easy access to the source code (best) or access to the person/s who wrote these differences so we can find out how they affect the code we write and then we can document it ourselves. Maybe a start to resolving this question would be if Nokia employed a few people to monitor this list waiting for issues like bluetooth, multimedia framework etc to crop up and then making it their mission to get an answer/reply to the community as soon as possible. The worst thing is some question falling into a black hole as this pisses intelligent people (like OSS hackers) off if they do not have a way to answer it for themselves. HTH -- -- Ian Lawrence Centre for Bioinformatics INSTITUTO NACIONAL DE PESQUISAS DA AMAZÔNIA – INPA RUA ANDRÉ ARAÚJO N º .2936 – BAIRRO DO ALEIXO MANAUS-AMAZONAS-BRAZIL PPBio – Research Program in Biodiversity http://ppbio.inpa.gov.br | Please do not send me documents in a closed | format.(*.doc,*.xls,*.ppt) | Use the open alternatives. (*.pdf,*.html,*.txt) http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html The state can't give you free speech, and the state can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
First, I don´t care about my tone, it´s a voice of a angry customer, IT´S THE FIRST TIME THAT I HEARD ABOUT THE SOURCE CODE. Even other members of this list never heard about it, so don´t come like my old daddy saying hey kid, it was there all the time, below your nose in the About dialog box. I bought, I paid, if the product is far from my expectatives, I say to the world as I wish. There's a very know citation (perhaps unknow in Finland) that says the client is always right. And this tone got worst because your brazilian fellows at Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia instead of showing me where the sources were, told me about docs, made inferences about my programming abilities and so on... And IF YOU WERE FOLLOWING the list by now you would know my problem, but if my programming abilities concerns you, ok, let´s talk about it: void gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(GtkTextBuffer *buffer, const gchar *text, gint len) gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, \u00E3, -1); The function above doesn't work for unicode chars in Maemo, for normal GTK is perfect. But if my abilities are yet not as good as you think, let´s try something that doesn´t is programming at all.. Install bluetooth keyboard and use xmodmap, suppose this: Xmodmap -e keysym asciitilde = 228 Doesn't solve my dead keys, but I exchange the tilde for Ä char. Well, works fine at console, but try to open Notes and hit the tilde key, nothing happens at all. But when I use the screenkeyboard dead keys are enabled, and NOBODY was able to tell me how if unicode is not supported. So, dear finland guy, it´s not my INABILITY to adapt Maemopad that's frustrating me, is the INABILITY of Maemo to follow standards... And besides, take a sincere look at maemo repository and tell me how many good hildon programs are there. Only your sponsored fellows from Instituto Nokia are releasing, because port is quite difficult due lack of documentation and TRANSPARENCY FROM THAT TEAM. Now, let´s quick respond all: Osvaldo Santana: Your python package show as broken in my application manager, but the interpreter works. I suppose that even you are getting hardtime with hildon. Antonio Gomes: I'll tell you what I deserve: I deserve transparency, I bought a open source powered product and I felt tricked when sources were not available. And my Nokia is not for sale, THANKS TO YOU I registered www.ihatenokia770.com, and my nokia will be the star. I'll dedicate for you, just wait a few more days... Eduardo de Barros Lima: When good docs and tutorials appears, don´t bother with me, I'll read because I know where to find then, and I will know if they will be good ones or not. And what I think about how hildon development: -As you noticed just the brazilian guys where over me (without help, just for mention). I suppose that Nokia is developing Maemo at Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia, here, in Brazil. As you know, such enterprise requires money, sponsorship and so on. They are related to universities, so you can add ego and prestige in the equation. Well, if I am crazy and THE ONLY ONE BLAMING HILDON, that's ok, I alone lost my fuse... But many of you agree that hildon development is not satisfactory, so, sorry about my methods, but my patience was gone with this land of happy lambs, where people are asking for new features instead for corrections. I don´t care if brazilians, africans or russians developes Maemo as long they do a good job. Indeed, this personal must be really prepared for Global Business. -Second and most important: I am a normal guy, funds analyst from Santander bank (in fact, economist), so I am not related to competing firms, I am not sponsored. I work with mutual funds and asset management, so I am out the prestige/sponsorship/ego wheel that moves maemo. I am just a really pissed off user that is so frustrate that decided to register www.ihatenokia770.com to assure that everyone knows what is buying. -And third and most important, all of you can rest assured that I am out, no more writing, I need to work and my english is quite horrible . Evebody has my mail, feel free to write for me. To Devesh: In general I am happy to learn from your frustrations to improve maemo and maemo development experience. Even disliking my tone, if you have the means to really improve, do it. More transparency, more enphasis about the source (I really was about to start questionate where GPL licenses applies) and more code. I am a former soldier and I think when you go to battle is to win (quickly, aggressively), this battlefield is already occupied and my voice echoed trough other persons really interested abou Nokia 770. I think that some people were more worried to keep things gray and opaque for personal reasons. Nokia 770 is a great hardware, very promising and with the good appeal of a open source SO. I say that the hardware is perfect, just freely release the OS with more conviction. End of file. Alessandro
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 12:42:44PM -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: First, I don´t care about my tone We noticed. Marius Gedminas -- Programs that write programs are the happiest programs in the world. -- Andrew Hume signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
Andrew Flegg wrote: On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Christian Pernegger wrote: - setting up the developent environment was a bitch Could you please send me why ? - Setting up ScratchBox ??? - Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ? - Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr? - Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ??? I am asking you, so we improve it. It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of installing? HTH, Andrew I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze. Hugh ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop
I wish the Notes instead of Maemopad. My english is so bad? Sorry. May be in portuguese: Eu quero o código fonte do Notes, o Maemopad não me interessa... E eu quero que você também explique o motivo de gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, \u00E3, -1); não funcionar para Unicode. Não afronte minha inteligência, você não tem nada a ganhar com isso... -Original Message- From: Eduardo de Barros Lima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: terça-feira, 29 de agosto de 2006 10:06 To: Alessandro Ikeuchi Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org; maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop Hi, On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of show me these crap links (that I searched many times) WHY YOU DON'T SEND ME THE Notes SOURCES, hein? http://repository.maemo.org/pool/mistral/free/source/m/maemopad/ You can always use apt-get source command. I am sure that five minutes of hack and I would achieve my goals... Good luck. -- Eduardo de Barros Lima INdT - Instituto Nokia de Tecnologia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Essa mensagem é destinada exclusivamente ao seu destinatário e pode conter informações confidenciais, protegidas por sigilo profissional ou cuja divulgação seja proibida por lei. O uso não autorizado de tais informações é proibido e está sujeito às penalidades cabíveis. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain information that is confidential and protected by a professional privilege or whose disclosure is prohibited by law. Unauthorized use of such information is prohibited and subject to applicable penalties. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
Why was [setting up the developent environment difficult]? scratchbox is not an official Debian package, and as far as the rather intrusive directory structure goes, I can see why it isn't. It also needs i386 when my do your worst boxes are both amd64. All in all it was just long and error-prone. - Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr? Xephyr segfaulted left, right and center when I last tried it, but only after the first few events. Xnest worked. The chroot + rootstrap approch itself would be nice enough if the environment were exactly the same as a 770, that is including applications. At first I thought something was broken because it wasn't really possible to _do_ anything in the chrooted environent. So obviously we aren't supposed to enhance the provided apps ... hmm. The scratchbox environment has no audio output, no battery indicator, no simulated connectivity, ... it isn't much better than saying compile using these header files and cross-compile by changing your makefile in this way. I'll admit the last time I played with handheld development was on a Palm emulator, which felt much more complete - maemo is like flying blind. I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor non-PC devices is different. Yes, traditionally it is. But a RAD approach would get you more developers from the hobby end of the spectrum, while you'd have to completely open up the software (including applications, bootloader, etc ...) for professionals to donate their spare time. maemo just isn't fun to work with yet, but I'm sure you'll get there :) C. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On 8/29/06, Hugh Warrington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Flegg wrote: [Getting scratchbox running] It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of installing? I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze. I didn't say it was hard, just not simple. Why should I need to spend time downloading this, installing that, copying this rootstrap etc? Surely you can't be arguing that despite the installer script existing, users should be confronted with a twenty step process to get the SDK up and running, when it could be just one? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:50:47PM +0100, Hugh Warrington wrote: Andrew Flegg wrote: On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Christian Pernegger wrote: - setting up the developent environment was a bitch Could you please send me why ? - Setting up ScratchBox ??? - Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ? - Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr? - Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ??? I am asking you, so we improve it. It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of installing? I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze. People have different expectations. I have come to expect one line of instructions: apt-get install package-name, and that's it. I do not like to run shell script that install software. Package management systems are there for a reason. It is good that I can apt-get install scratchbox into my Ubuntu laptop. Figuring out *which* packages to install was a bit trickier (scratchbox-core scratchbox-devkit-debian scratchbox-libs scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-i386 scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm). Would it be possible to prepare a Debian package that * depends on all the necessary scratchbox packages * asks via debconf for a list of users that you want to add to the sbox group and create scratchbox user accounts * automates the scratchbox target creation and configuration (rootstrap, .bash_profile, etc.), maybe from the same postinst script, maybe from a separate shell script. * includes the start-maemo-xephyr shell script. * ships with a shell script that sets up scratchbox when you run it for the first time (adduser $USERNAME sbox ? The main question seems to be: can I tell /scratchbox/login to run some command (say, a shell script that calls the necessary sequence of sbox-config commands)? I think the best user experience is one command for installation (apt-get install maemo-scratchbox) one command to start Xnest (maemo-xephyr?) one command to start an i386 shell (maemo-386-shell) one command to start an armel shell (maemo-armel-shell) No extra configuration required. Hm... looks like a worthy project for a weekend. A VMWare virtual appliance with scratchbox preconfigured would also be nice, I suppose, although personally I'm not interested in it. Marius Gedminas -- The last good thing written in C was Franz Schubert's Symphony #9. -- Erwin Dietrich signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them. There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu Sardine certainly looks like a step in the right direction in terms of integrating the community into the development process, kind of like Red Hat does with its Fedora Project. Nokia, like Red Hat, has a shipping product that it needs some degree of control over, but also an active community that has its own ideas and wishes. Hopefully Sardine will help make the Maemo project better and keep both Nokia and the Maemo community happy. Ideally, in the future there could be complete, unofficial product images (as Nokia calls them) that are created by the community, for example maybe one that incorporates only free software (in the GNU or OSI sense). Maybe something similar to Red Hat's derivative policy towards Fedora. That would be a particularly popular one among some, I would venture. Similar to OpenZaurus for the Sharp PDAs, but within the auspices of the Maemo community. Unaddressed so far, however, is the Bluetooth headset issue--more generally, hardware details that are necessary to create such a distribution. Headset support would be an extremely useful feature, one that I would like myself, but unfortunately no one outside Nokia (or TI or whoever made the Bluetooth chip) has the necessary details. This is an area where the current top-down structure of the Maemo project fails. You (the Nokia engineers) seem genuinely interested in listening to the community, I would be willing to bet that either adding the necessary support to the the Maemo kernel or providing documentation to interested parties would silence a longstanding gripe of some of us. (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. The Nokia 770 is by far the most perfect device to run Kismet on that I have ever seen--it's a shame it doesn't work right. :) ) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400 Andrew Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. ... and packet injection support for aireplay ;) Cheers -- Jaime Ruiz Frontera e-mail: jaime AT cauterized.net jabber: jaime AT zgzjabber.ath.cx sip : jaime AT ekiga.net pgpVfOKK6eZHD.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
Hi Alessandro, Are you in Brazil, right?! Why don't you request some help from PROCON? ( that means Consumer Protection Department, from whom is not in Brazil). ;-) I believe they can help you with your frustrations. As far as I understood, you are not interesting in improving anything here, you just want to spread your rage. When you buy something you already MUST know what you're buying. Anderson Briglia On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a colony of ants... I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, so, Nokia is using it, isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs could be covered by releasing the sources... I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for my bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work properly (try to change font color). Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for screen keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys? (by the way, I made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my Linux x86 box that works as planned, so I am sure that's not me...) Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!... It´s a piece of crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications of my interest... There´s no surprise that REAL AND USEFUL APPLICATIONS never appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions) MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007: Forget about Hildon, forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim, python (python for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it, there´s no Python version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly updated) and UNICODE support, would be great if CURSES is available too, or better, with a good framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia budget and make the plataform usefull and with lots of space... Besides, with a real open source OS and simple developing tools I would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above are CONSOLE and X11 programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If you are a Hildon developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released applications are Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's the weakspot of Nokia 770... Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my useless Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have Nokia, believe me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of development of a Win32 x86 platform, forget the linux, open source and free for all stuff, Nokia 770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed off... I really bought Nokia 770 for my personal business purpose, confident about the debian based OS... Hacks are good when works and when you have control (sources), otherwise it's non sense time spending... (try to discover why GTK API works in your Linux x86 and doesn't in OS2006 is a good mental exercise if you have 18 hours free per day, because nobody knows and you will never see the platform sources). My opinion is clear: Nokia 770 won´t prevail with these development policies. I won´t use it and I don´t recommend as plataform for anyone, it's just a annoying gadget, do yourself a favor and buy a PSP instead (at least runs win95 with bochs and have nice 3d games). Alessandro - unhappy owner of a nokia 770 since June/2006 Essa mensagem é destinada exclusivamente ao seu destinatário e pode conter informações confidenciais, protegidas por sigilo profissional ou cuja divulgação seja proibida por lei. O uso não autorizado de tais informações é proibido e está sujeito às penalidades cabíveis. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain information that is confidential and protected by a professional privilege or whose disclosure is prohibited by law. Unauthorized use of such information is prohibited and subject to applicable penalties. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
You don´t help either... Are you worried about your paycheck from Nokia or the Open Source? I am worried about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it. And I am here as customer, not as community member. If you work on Maemo, sorry to say, I tried as a good guy before and nobody remember... Now I spread my rage were I want, because when people criticize my work here as analyst I improve it and respect my client, no matter how angry he is. And I never told nothing personal here, so you and everyone more else with feellings should work better and assure that Maemo is really open to community, because it's not nowadays. Tell me how to write unicode chars (because is certainly changed) would be the most correct way to silence me. -Original Message- From: Anderson Briglia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: terça-feira, 29 de agosto de 2006 14:34 To: Alessandro Ikeuchi Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources... Hi Alessandro, Are you in Brazil, right?! Why don't you request some help from PROCON? ( that means Consumer Protection Department, from whom is not in Brazil). ;-) I believe they can help you with your frustrations. As far as I understood, you are not interesting in improving anything here, you just want to spread your rage. When you buy something you already MUST know what you're buying. Anderson Briglia On 8/28/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, Maemo docs sucks, the SDK sucks and the Hildon stuff looks like a colony of ants... I bought Nokia 770 because I believe OPEN SOURCE, so, Nokia is using it, isn´t? Where are the sources? The lack of docs could be covered by releasing the sources... I just wanted to build my own text editor with dead keys support for my bluetooth keyboard, but even the Maemopad example doesn't work properly (try to change font color). Unicode only works for the xterm, and worst, Notes does dead keys for screen keyboard, so, why is so hard to adapt Maemopad for dead keys? (by the way, I made a working version of Maemopad with GTK for my Linux x86 box that works as planned, so I am sure that's not me...) Nokia 770 is Debian based, Alessandro, should be great!... It´s a piece of crap, I never used because I can´t find or port applications of my interest... There´s no surprise that REAL AND USEFUL APPLICATIONS never appears at maemo repository (with some exceptions) MY SUGGESTION FOR THE NEXT RELEASE OF shitOS 2007: Forget about Hildon, forget desktop, give me a console based OS with Lynx, vim, python (python for OS 2006 appears in Maemo 2.0 repository, forget it, there´s no Python version for OS 2006, even the list isn´t properly updated) and UNICODE support, would be great if CURSES is available too, or better, with a good framebuffer driver. It would spare Nokia budget and make the plataform usefull and with lots of space... Besides, with a real open source OS and simple developing tools I would try QTopia. The exceptions mentioned above are CONSOLE and X11 programs, as python, smallbasic, octave, gnuplot... If you are a Hildon developer/mantainer pay attention: the best released applications are Console based! With no fear, Hildon sucks and it's the weakspot of Nokia 770... Someone just confirm that I can´t get Notes sources and I'll sell my useless Nokia 770 and buy Samsung Q1 (try this one if you don´t have Nokia, believe me, the lower price of Nokia doesn't beat the ease of development of a Win32 x86 platform, forget the linux, open source and free for all stuff, Nokia 770 is not that). And yes, I am pissed off... I really bought Nokia 770 for my personal business purpose, confident about the debian based OS... Hacks are good when works and when you have control (sources), otherwise it's non sense time spending... (try to discover why GTK API works in your Linux x86 and doesn't in OS2006 is a good mental exercise if you have 18 hours free per day, because nobody knows and you will never see the platform sources). My opinion is clear: Nokia 770 won´t prevail with these development policies. I won´t use it and I don´t recommend as plataform for anyone, it's just a annoying gadget, do yourself a favor and buy a PSP instead (at least runs win95 with bochs and have nice 3d games). Alessandro - unhappy owner of a nokia 770 since June/2006 Essa mensagem é destinada exclusivamente ao seu destinatário e pode conter informações confidenciais, protegidas por sigilo profissional ou cuja divulgação seja proibida por lei. O uso não autorizado de tais informações é proibido e está sujeito às penalidades cabíveis. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee and may contain information that is confidential and protected by a professional privilege or whose disclosure is prohibited by law. Unauthorized use of such information is prohibited and subject to applicable
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
Alessandro Ikeuchi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, \u00E3, -1); gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor () expects UTF-8 as the second argument. I don't know what C99 / C++ define for the \u excape sequences (probably wide chars or something like this), but I strongly suspect that the internal encoding is undefined and/or machine dependant. I am not at all convinced that this is supposed to work and I suggest that you assume the error on your side. Feel free to point me to the Ansi C99 standard that defines the internal encoding of wide char string constants to be UTF-8 though. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
It is inappropriate to use a developer community mailing list for customer support.On 8/29/06, Alessandro Ikeuchi aikeuchi-at-santanderbanespa.com.br |maemo.dev/gmailLabelled| ... wrote: And I am here as customer, not as community member. -- ~tlholaday() ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: I am worried about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it. You're mostly harmed just by your incompetence. In 90% of stuff you posted the problem was on your side. And I am here as customer, not as community member. Then you are at the wrong place. This is not customer support. when people criticize my work here as analyst I improve it and respect my client, no matter how angry he is. Because customer pays you. This is a community list. You are not paying community members to listen to your rants. Please behave yourself or get lost. Tell me how to write unicode chars (because is certainly changed) would be the most correct way to silence me. No, you got it wrong. In fact, banning you completely from the list would be the most correct way. We are just wasting our time with you. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...
There is http://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/ for this particular case. But, unfortunately, nobody is answering in its forums and not even in this ML.Paulo Pires On 8/29/06, Jaime Ruiz Frontera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400Andrew Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:[...] (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly and packet injection support for aireplay ;) Cheers--Jaime Ruiz Fronterae-mail: jaime AT cauterized.netjabber: jaime AT zgzjabber.ath.cxsip : jaime AT ekiga.net___maemo-developers mailing listmaemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Initiating connections programatically
My team is developing an application that will be used by tech- clueless consumers. All data is displayed in a portrait screen orientation, and our application is intended to run directly from startup in place of the default Hildon launcher. Because of this, we need to provide our own UI for selecting a WLAN connection. We've tried using both LIBOSSO and Linux wireless tools without success. #libosso using python import osso osso_c=osso.Context(wifi,0.0.1,False) ret=osso_c.rpc_run(com.nokia.icd,/com/nokia/ icd,com.nokia.icd,get_ipinfo,wait_reply=True,use_system_bus=True) #lend python It always seems to complain about an interface not found (or something similar like that). We've tried many variants of this without success: ret=osso_c.rpc_run(com.nokia.icd,/com/nokia/ icd,com.nokia.icd,connect,rpc_args=[name, 1],wait_reply=True,use_system_bus=True) Our second approach was to write code that will bring up the wlan network and then scan for hotspots: #file wifi_scan.sh sudo gainroot /sbin/ifconfig wlan0 down /sbin/ifconfig wlan0 up /usr/sbin/iwlist wlan0 scanning END Here's the code that will connect to the network (at least partially): #file wifi_connect.sh sudo gainroot /usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 essid $1 /usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 key $2 /usr/sbin/iwconfig wlan0 commit END Running it as ./wifi_connect.sh MyNetworkSid MyWEPpassword works, except that when geting the wifi info (using /usr/sbin/iwconfig or / sbin/ifconfig) it doesn't seem to assign an IP address to the network interface (or at least something is preventing the internet from working). Assuming that the problem with the wifi_connect.sh script is that the DHCP isn't working, then there may be extra logic needed to link to dhcp server on the router…. There is code under /etc/udhcpc/ that appears to drive the assignment of ip addresses to the Nokia via DHCP from the network you become connected to. We haven't been able to get it to do anything useful. There is some vague info on this directory at http:// stefans.datenbruch.de/nokia770/. The only other last-ditch idea we've thought about (and we have no idea if this is even remotely feasible) was to use the built-in Connection Manager, but hide it behind our application's window and somehow send stylus click events to it. Right now, this mailing list is all that stands between us and dropping support for wifi connectivity in our application (ouch). Your wise counsel is humbly sought, Scott___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Difference between retail rootfs and developer rootfs
What's the difference between the rootfs installed by default on devices that ship with OS2006 and Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.0_armel- rootfs.jffs2 (besides USB networking and root access being enabled)? What does easier debugging mean besides root access? Or to ask another way, is there any reason why I wouldn't want to flash in the developer rootfs? Is saving space the only reason why the device doesn't ship with a rootfs equivalent to the developer one? -- Henri Sivonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, 2006-29-08 at 14:46 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote: You don´t help either... Are you worried about your paycheck from Nokia or the Open Source? I am worried about a bad product policy and because I am directly harmed by it. I think you have made your point, everyone has read it. Can we now please move on. Lets see what kind of response comes over the next week or so. Remember this is summer and many people may actually be on vacation. Lets give this a rest for a bit please, we all understand there are some frustrations, mine happens to be bluetooth support but lets give Nokia an opportunity to respond now. Thanks ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Re: Nokia 770 sources...
On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 20:10 +0200, Simon Budig wrote: Alessandro Ikeuchi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor(mybuffer, \u00E3, -1); gtk_text_buffer_insert_at_cursor () expects UTF-8 as the second argument. I don't know what C99 / C++ define for the \u excape sequences (probably wide chars or something like this), but I strongly suspect that the internal encoding is undefined and/or machine dependant. I am not at all convinced that this is supposed to work and I suggest that you assume the error on your side. Feel free to point me to the Ansi C99 standard that defines the internal encoding of wide char string constants to be UTF-8 though. The spec as I read it is a little vague, and \u specifies a universal character with no specific encoding. I'm guessing it's the literal codepoint. As you say, GTK+ always expects UTF-8 (unless you are using the gunichar API, in which \u should work). Thanks to the ever-wonderful gucharmap: U+00E3 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH TILDE General Character Properties Unicode category: Letter, Lowercase Canonical decomposition: U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A + U+0303 COMBINING TILDE Various Useful Representations UTF-8: 0xC3 0xA3 UTF-16: 0x00E3 C octal escaped UTF-8: \303\243 XML decimal entity: #227; If you want a literal ã in your C string for passing to a GTK+ function, then use \303\243 to get the character in the UTF-8 encoding. Ross -- Ross Burton mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-users] RE: [maemo-developers] Future features for Maemo Desktop
2006/8/29, Eero Tamminen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, There are plenty of other small differences, *some* of which are explained in this tutorial. (my emphasis). Now the only way to change that *some* into an *all* is to give us (the community) either easy access to the source code (best) But you do have! Just click the LXR link on the left of the tutorial page. The Hildon framework sources are publicly available (and have been for a long time). Unfortunately when people say sources for 770 they do tend to mean IT200x (the product) too and not only Maemo (the platform). I think there was not enough separation made between the two (not that the difference would be that obvious though) in the initial launch, which lead to different expectations than what came to reality. This coupled to the fact that the original release for the sources was sluggish made for disappointments in the open source community that, quite frankly, isn't that sensitive to the issues that the so-called corporate people have. So while the initial marriage of open source and corporate[1] wasn't too smooth all around, to my eye it is definitely developing in the right direction and has come a long way from where it began. Having met some of the nice people doing this work and thinking on how to improve it (hi tigert :) I'm sure it will get better all the time. Now, it would be crucial to get some community work integrated to the product too so that people will see how their input is valuable and welcome. One way of doing this would be to organise a hackfest during which there would be some features developed and bugs fixed by the community with the support of Maemo-staff. I'm not sure how well patches from the maemo.org bugzilla have been received, I remember hearing of maybe one patch that has been applied (but there must be others, right?). Getting the component maintainers to hang out in IRC reviewing community patches as a dedicated effort would definitely help on bridging the gap between the two worlds in my opinion. Who knows if such a thing would make the maemo developers receive not only complaints but fixes too ;) [1] I'm only using this word as I'm not sure what would be a better one. commercial is not what I mean here, but rather the goals and work flow differences. -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
