Re: 3.2007.10-7 - Detailed change log?
On 3 Aug 2007, at 20:30, Koen Kooi wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Andy Mulhearn schreef: > >>> I understood the problem being discussed here is how to map that to >>> public releases and for end-users? As Quim stated, this is being >>> (slowly) improved. >> >> If slow improvement means not seeing any change over a period of six >> months then yes, there is slow improvement. > > Six months? I think you mean 2 years :( > I was being generous. You can't fault me for that can you :( Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: 3.2007.10-7 - Detailed change log?
On 3 Aug 2007, at 16:32, Eero Tamminen wrote: > Hi, > > ext Andy Mulhearn wrote: >> On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 12:11PM, "Daniel Stone" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 02:05:31AM -0700, ext Andy Mulhearn wrote: >>>> On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 09:56AM, "Eero Tamminen" >>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> We certainly know what we've fixed, but the issue is that there's >>>>> no reasonable way to know what part of that is relevant to you. >>>> Well publish the whole list then. Surely it can't be that hard? >>> The whole list includes not only internal codenames etc which >>> can't be >>> published, but details of proprietary components. So it's not >>> just a >>> matter of dumping the BTS, it still requires someone to go >>> through and >>> make the changelog (which we should have anyway). >> >> And which people have been requesting for a significant period of >> time. >>>>> For example I don't think you would be interested about a list >>>>> of a few >>>>> hundred localization issues (missing localization, typos etc) >>>>> found >>>>> by the localization testing while a new release is being >>>>> developed, >>>>> especially as none of these issues is in any release you can >>>>> install >>>>> to your device. They are not in the latest public release >>>>> where they >>>>> are fixed nor in the previous one which didn't have them. >>>> When the fixes were checked into your source repository, did you >>>> detail >>>> every single change made or the headline? >>> 'your source repository'. Do you mean the Application Framework SVN >>> repository, the Complementary Applications SVN repository, my X >>> server >>> git repository, the kernel git repository, ... ? >> >> How about all of them? > > Please check what's available; kernel and X git repositories you > should > find with Google, Application framework stuff you will find from Maemo > (until it's moved to Gnome), new Browser is in Garage. For all the > open > source(d) packages you find the debian source package from the maemo > repos and those contain change logs. Maybe you could view them and > tell > what specifically you're lacking? Hmmm, I think someone's missing the point here. You "Nokia" tell me as an end user nothing about what's in each release. From start to finish, there's no information in a release that tells me what it includes. At the very minimum I want the delta between the current and previous releases. If that's fixed defect this in package that and upgraded Opera to version y then that's fine. But you seem incapable of doing even that. And the new browser is not part of the released image so I'm not interested. But will be when it is. To be honest, your response is more along the same line of the previous responses, i.e. "it's more complex than you understand" which again just tells me Nokia either can't or won't provide this information. > > >> Sorry to be blunt but I'm beginning to believe there are two >> reasons this >> hasn't been done before. >> >> 1) Your development processes are so chaotic/broken that you >> simply can't >> do it., e.g. you don't use a decent bug-tracking tool and no one >> manages >> what goes into a release. >> >> 2) You just don't want to and no one can be bothered to make the >> statement. >> >> When the team I work with produce a new cut of software, we >> include all >> of the specific requirements added to the release and any defects >> fixed >> in the release. And what's fixed in any third party products we use. >> This can run to hundreds of specific changes in a major release >> but we >> manage to do it and we dont' have a huge team to managed it >> because we >> have good processes and controls and use the right tools to manage >> releases and defect tracking.. >> >> So I fail to see why you can't present this information other than >> one >> of the two reasons above. > > I think you're confusing things. We have all that for internal > releases > and internal customers. No, I can't help thinking that it's you that's trying to obfuscate things. > > External distro/core developers can already follow changes "live" > through maemo-developers, sardine, ubuntu-mobile/embdded, gtk etc > mailing lists and svn to an extent (although there's still a lot to > improve). > > I understood the problem being discussed here is how to map that to > public releases and for end-users? As Quim stated, this is being > (slowly) improved. If slow improvement means not seeing any change over a period of six months then yes, there is slow improvement. [snipped a response to a different author's questions] Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: 3.2007.10-7 - Detailed change log?
On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 12:11PM, "Daniel Stone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 02:05:31AM -0700, ext Andy Mulhearn wrote: >> On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 09:56AM, "Eero Tamminen" <[EMAIL >> PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >We certainly know what we've fixed, but the issue is that there's >> >no reasonable way to know what part of that is relevant to you. >> >> Well publish the whole list then. Surely it can't be that hard? > >The whole list includes not only internal codenames etc which can't be >published, but details of proprietary components. So it's not just a >matter of dumping the BTS, it still requires someone to go through and >make the changelog (which we should have anyway). And which people have been requesting for a significant period of time. > >> >For example I don't think you would be interested about a list of a few >> >hundred localization issues (missing localization, typos etc) found >> >by the localization testing while a new release is being developed, >> >especially as none of these issues is in any release you can install >> >to your device. They are not in the latest public release where they >> >are fixed nor in the previous one which didn't have them. >> >> When the fixes were checked into your source repository, did you detail >> every single change made or the headline? > >'your source repository'. Do you mean the Application Framework SVN >repository, the Complementary Applications SVN repository, my X server >git repository, the kernel git repository, ... ? How about all of them? Sorry to be blunt but I'm beginning to believe there are two reasons this hasn't been done before. 1) Your development processes are so chaotic/broken that you simply can't do it., e.g. you don't use a decent bug-tracking tool and no one manages what goes into a release. 2) You just don't want to and no one can be bothered to make the statement. When the team I work with produce a new cut of software, we include all of the specific requirements added to the release and any defects fixed in the release. And what's fixed in any third party products we use. This can run to hundreds of specific changes in a major release but we manage to do it and we dont' have a huge team to managed it because we have good processes and controls and use the right tools to manage releases and defect tracking.. So I fail to see why you can't present this information other than one of the two reasons above. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: 3.2007.10-7 - Detailed change log?
On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 09:56AM, "Eero Tamminen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi, > >ext Neil MacLeod wrote: >> Quim Gil wrote: >>> On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 18:41 +0100, ext Neil MacLeod wrote: >>> By Diablo, perhaps. We hope so. >> >> I should hope it should be possible to release something as basic as >> a changelog by v5 of a project. I know that sounds harsh, but seriously... >> if you don't what you've fixed in any given release it really does >> suggest a chaotic process. > >We certainly know what we've fixed, but the issue is that there's >no reasonable way to know what part of that is relevant to you. Well publish the whole list then. Surely it can't be that hard? > >For example I don't think you would be interested about a list of a few >hundred localization issues (missing localization, typos etc) found >by the localization testing while a new release is being developed, >especially as none of these issues is in any release you can install >to your device. They are not in the latest public release where they >are fixed nor in the previous one which didn't have them. When the fixes were checked into your source repository, did you detail every single change made or the headline? > >I don't think anyone here is willing to take the cost of e.g. testing >all the major bugs fixed from the intermediate development releases and >test whether they can be also replicated in the previous public release, >especially as <1% of that work would actually produce anything to the >release notes (and even less to end-user release notes) and this large >testing cost (for example some tests need quite elaborate setups) >wouldn't do anything to make the new release any better! > i'm not sure I see the relevance of this comment. Is it a reply to a different question? Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Apart from shutting off the sound thing thsi looks like a N770 cover on mode. Is that about right? Even if it's not, it's one I would like to have as well - as a "put away for a while" mode, Andy On Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 01:29PM, "Andrew Flegg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >[snip lots of interesting stuff] >> >> It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just >> because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. > >This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* >want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: > > * Shut off all network connections. > * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) > * Have the screen locked > * Not have to save my position > * Be able to resume quickly > >This isn't "suspend" in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the >purpose is clear. > >Cheers, > >Andrew > >-- >Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ >___ >maemo-developers mailing list >maemo-developers@maemo.org >https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation
On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:39, Marius Vollmer wrote: "ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you suggest. That's one thing that we have to figure out. Non-trivial I suspect. My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to where you were. I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is what you describe. Grim. One of the levels of hell. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation
On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:47, Paul Klapperich wrote: On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation > where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your > system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to > where you were. I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is what you describe. That, in particular, would be solved by having a somewhat recent flash image like you mentioned earlier. What he's describing would be akin to having to install Ubuntu Dapper and then having to patch your way up to Feisty Fawn, or similar. Generally not a danger, but it certainly takes a long time. With the added joys of having to authenticate your software, download a new copy of dpkg/apt-get, reboot three times, re-authenticate your licence, phone Microsoft when you fail authentication, reboot and wait an hour while all the patches install. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation
On Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 04:12PM, "Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >"ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >>> So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash >>> device model? If so, then GOOD! >> >> To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view >> that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working >> again. > >I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of >the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash >images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should >not be daunting. > > I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you suggest. My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to where you were. Microsoft have put a lot of effort into windows update to get around the fact that they can't redistribute windows CDs where with the N770/N800 we're in the reverse situation where redistribution of the firmware image is relatively painless. It also occurs to me that when you reflash, you know you have to do a backup or you lose your data. The fact that when you boot for the first time with a fresh image, the N800 sees the backups and offers to reinstall your settings makes that a relatively painless process. But if you can just apply a major firmware upgrade by accepting it in application manager and you don't think to backup first, what happens it goes wrong leaving you with an unworkable system? Andy, voting for both the old and the new approach... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation
On Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 01:09PM, "David Hagood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Marius Vollmer wrote: >> We would like to get your feedback on these plans, both from the >> end-user point of view and from the point of view of package >> developers. >> >> >Thank you for asking. That attitude is one of the reasons I like this >platform. >> There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole >> operating system. Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta >> package in the Application Manager. >> >So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash >device model? If so, then GOOD! To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working again. If it's one or the other but not both I want to stick as we are. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Problems installing Scratchbox
On Tuesday, February 06, 2007, at 08:05PM, "Piotr Pokora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hi, > >>>This is contrary to my experience. I was able to install xephyr on >>>debian/sid with zero problems ( apt-get install xserver-xephyr ). >> >> Considering I'm not running the unstable sid release I'd expect this to be >> the case. It would appear that trying to install Xephyr on stable results >> in a load of packages being required to upgrade to sid. > >I do not think stable debian is the best choice for development box. Do you have an alternative suggestion? I initially tried Ubuntu but installation of Xephyr seems to have cost me the ability to log in. At least I had a working installation until that point. >I have no idea what scratchbox version you had installed but 0.9 was >indeed much more than "a bit" painfull on unstable debian. I'm using stable Debian not unstable. Does that make a difference to the level of pain? > >Personally, I removed 0.9 and installed packages from >http://scratchbox.org/debian/ OK, I did that and followed the instructions on how to get up and running here: http://scratchbox.org/documentation/user/scratchbox-1.0/html/installdoc.html And failed to compile the hello_world app because of a lack of a working c compiler, with the message "perhaps I should be using --host?". Err, where? > >Easy, smooth, fast and out of the box. If only that were the case. I've invested somewhere in the region of 15 hours time trying to get a working build environment, every one of the tutorials I've tried has failed for one reason or another and none of them seem to be a good match between what the tutorial suggests should happen and the tools actually present when you use them. The barrier to entry to developers seems to me to be very high. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Sounds like a reasonable set of conclusions to me and gets my vote. The replyto discussion has been going for the best part of a year so it would be good to put a stake through that one's heart, Andy On Wednesday, February 07, 2007, at 07:01AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Thanks for the feedback. Still not 100 responses ;) but definitely we >have a wider opinion now. > >New iteration: > >- No new list created. > >- Current lists are not renamed. > >- Flags in the subject are wiped out. > >- Reply-To is kept as it is. > >- maemo-developers is for... developers hacking either applications or >the platform, plus any misc topic around the development platform. >Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on topic. > >- maemo-users is for power users trying to use / tweak / install stuff >that is not officially supported by Nokia but relies in the maemo >platform. Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on >topic. > >- Additional active lists with a specialized development focus hosted in >maemo's Garage are advertised at >http://maemo.org/community/mailing-lists.html > >- It is out of the scope of maemo.org to provide support to Internet >Tablet pure users. There is the official documentation, there is >Tableteer, there is also the unofficial but very useful >http://www.internettablettalk.com/ forum. We reckon there is a gap here >but our focus in maemo is development and innovation. We won't punish ;) >pure end-users asking in maemo-users, but answering those questions is >not a priority for the maemo community. > >-- >Quim Gil >Maemo team >___ >maemo-developers mailing list >maemo-developers@maemo.org >https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Problems installing Scratchbox
On Tuesday, February 06, 2007, at 04:19PM, "Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> As an aside , installing xephyr on Debian from unstable seems to be a >> complete non-starter without ripping out all of your other x apps and >> windowing system and a replacing a whole host of other packages as well. So >> I tried XNest instead which has the benefit of being installable and >> working. Unfortunately not being able to find ab-sh-init.sh renders this all >> a bit redundant. > >This is contrary to my experience. I was able to install xephyr on >debian/sid with zero problems ( apt-get install xserver-xephyr ). Considering I'm not running the unstable sid release I'd expect this to be the case. It would appear that trying to install Xephyr on stable results in a load of packages being required to upgrade to sid. > >> I also found that the installation script fails on debian when trying to add >> the scratchbox user if the user is already a valid unix user. Well duh! It >> doesn't look to me like it causes any problems - it's the last step in the >> process - but even so, does it imply I should be sticking to Ubuntu? > >This is also contrary to my experience - I used my normal username (on >debian/sid) for my scratchbox, and it was perfectly happy. I haven't >used the very latest installation script, however, so this behavior >may have changed. Perhaps a defect in the latest script then. Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Problems installing Scratchbox
This weekend I decided to brush up my meagre developer skills, starting by seeing if I could build one of the hello world style apps to run on my N800. Unfortunately it proved to be an almost completely fruitless exercise, other than providing me with a working Debian installation in a Parallels VM and 10 hours entertainment over the weekend. What happened on both Debian 3.1 and Ubuntu Edgy was that the installation process - using the maemo installer script or installing from .deb manually - appeared to work correctly except that I ended up missing af-sb-init.sh. So the whole thing come to an grinding halt at that point. Can anyone suggest a resolution? As an aside , installing xephyr on Debian from unstable seems to be a complete non-starter without ripping out all of your other x apps and windowing system and a replacing a whole host of other packages as well. So I tried XNest instead which has the benefit of being installable and working. Unfortunately not being able to find ab-sh-init.sh renders this all a bit redundant. Interestingly Xephyr installs fine on Edgy. I also found that the installation script fails on debian when trying to add the scratchbox user if the user is already a valid unix user. Well duh! It doesn't look to me like it causes any problems - it's the last step in the process - but even so, does it imply I should be sticking to Ubuntu? Andy Mulhearn ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] Application catalog from repositories
On Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 11:43AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>Tommi Komulainen wrote: >>> I see "libsqlite0 2.8.13-2" in two repositories / sections: >>> * under user/libs from Kernel Concepts >>> * under libs from Maemo repository >>> >> >>I think library packages that applications might want to pull >>in should not be using the user/whatever section convention, >>but the normal libs section as the Maemo package here does. >>Putting a library under user/libs clutters the application >>list with packages that are not applications and the user does >>not have a clue what they are (and should not need to know >>about at all). If you declare the section as libs instead, the >>installer will still pull that dependency from the repository, >>but without it showing in the installer UI. >> >>Tomas > >I second that. Seeing the libs in installed applications in the >AppInstaller sounds really scary IMHO. > I'll third that. As a user I'm not sure why I want to see the libs as installable entities either? It's not like I'll install them other than as part of an application installation... Andy ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
