Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 2/16/07, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No objections. Let's consider this as an agreement. Ferenc, can you remove the flags? I will update the descriptions in test.maemo.org. done -ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Sounds like a reasonable set of conclusions to me and gets my vote. The replyto discussion has been going for the best part of a year so it would be good to put a stake through that one's heart, Andy On Wednesday, February 07, 2007, at 07:01AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the feedback. Still not 100 responses ;) but definitely we have a wider opinion now. New iteration: - No new list created. - Current lists are not renamed. - Flags in the subject are wiped out. - Reply-To is kept as it is. - maemo-developers is for... developers hacking either applications or the platform, plus any misc topic around the development platform. Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on topic. - maemo-users is for power users trying to use / tweak / install stuff that is not officially supported by Nokia but relies in the maemo platform. Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on topic. - Additional active lists with a specialized development focus hosted in maemo's Garage are advertised at http://maemo.org/community/mailing-lists.html - It is out of the scope of maemo.org to provide support to Internet Tablet pure users. There is the official documentation, there is Tableteer, there is also the unofficial but very useful http://www.internettablettalk.com/ forum. We reckon there is a gap here but our focus in maemo is development and innovation. We won't punish ;) pure end-users asking in maemo-users, but answering those questions is not a priority for the maemo community. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Seconded. Further, do you want a single reasonable reason to reduce (at least) this string from msg titles ? Try reading you gmail from your n800/n770 ! On 2/6/07, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Levi Bard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As far as removing the tag from the subject in favor of a List-something header: most webmail clients (gmail at least) don't allow you to filter on these headers. Is there any way the [maemo-developers] can be put onto the *end* of the subject? That way, it'll still be there for filtering, but it won't be taking up the valuable space at the beginning of the subject line. I wish that the [maemo-developers] string would be removed altogether. It takes too much space from the Subject header and makes reading the subject too difficult. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- --Antonio Gomes ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Yay for Mutt and single-keystroke reply-to-list! I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. I think I could deal with both, but if the mailing list software mangles the reply-to header, sooner or later I *will* post a personal message to the list by accident. You are right, I just did not have the list module installed in the reader, it works better now. I no longer care. :) I do care about the reply-to address and I am sure you superior mailer also can be trained to do the reverse (So that you no longer care). Idem for the garage mailing lists. IMHO this is the way mailing lists work. Distribution lists often work the way you happen to like it. So ++ for changing the reply-address greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 09:59 -0600, Levi Bard wrote: [snip] most webmail clients (gmail at least) don't allow you to filter on these headers [snip] In gmail, you can filter on the recipients using the labels feature. It's not perfect but it mostly works. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
[snip] most webmail clients (gmail at least) don't allow you to filter on these headers [snip] In gmail, you can filter on the recipients using the labels feature. It's not perfect but it mostly works. I agree - that's my first method, and the subject line filtering catches anything that doesn't have a matching recipient. If the subject tag is removed, any Reply All mail won't be caught this way. Not the end of the world. -- Just stop and take your secret journey, you will be a new box. --Leeta http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Thanks for the feedback. Still not 100 responses ;) but definitely we have a wider opinion now. New iteration: - No new list created. - Current lists are not renamed. - Flags in the subject are wiped out. - Reply-To is kept as it is. - maemo-developers is for... developers hacking either applications or the platform, plus any misc topic around the development platform. Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on topic. - maemo-users is for power users trying to use / tweak / install stuff that is not officially supported by Nokia but relies in the maemo platform. Community moderation is encouraged to ensure the list stays on topic. - Additional active lists with a specialized development focus hosted in maemo's Garage are advertised at http://maemo.org/community/mailing-lists.html - It is out of the scope of maemo.org to provide support to Internet Tablet pure users. There is the official documentation, there is Tableteer, there is also the unofficial but very useful http://www.internettablettalk.com/ forum. We reckon there is a gap here but our focus in maemo is development and innovation. We won't punish ;) pure end-users asking in maemo-users, but answering those questions is not a priority for the maemo community. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
New iteration: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] New list, interested people need to join. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. About the flags, if someone wants to come up with a schort schema, great. I've tried several option but they get either too abstract or too long. Question: aren't there ways to filter appropriately the emails without relying on the flags? If so we could get rid completely of them. What is true is that the current flags are difficulting subject readability in 800px width resolution screens. PS: Re-reading this thread and also http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/keesj/2007/02/02/developers_develop ers_developers I have second thoughts about the convenience of this proposal. I mean, I think it definitely makes sense and will improve things here but if this is not a shared thought the better (and the easiest) is to leave the lists as they are. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 11:46 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question: aren't there ways to filter appropriately the emails without relying on the flags? Yes. The emails have an X-list field in the header. That's why Evolution, for instance, can filter by mailing list. It doesn't help you filter the copies that you get when someone replies to all. Personally I want to get a copy so I can easily see that someone has replied to me. Not everyone likes that. But this isn't anything unusual. It's what most mailing lists do. See most GNOME lists, for instance. Someone will complain about whatever mailing list setup you use, however. Even me. If so we could get rid completely of them. What is true is that the current flags are difficulting subject readability in 800px width resolution screens. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Mon Feb 5 10:00:38 2007, Murray Cumming wrote: On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 11:46 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question: aren't there ways to filter appropriately the emails without relying on the flags? Yes. The emails have an X-list field in the header. That's why Evolution, for instance, can filter by mailing list. Hopefully it's using the List-* headers that are the standard, particularly List-Id, in preference. Some email clients will even handle lists that subvert Reply-To. It doesn't help you filter the copies that you get when someone replies to all. Personally I want to get a copy so I can easily see that someone has replied to me. Not everyone likes that. But this isn't anything unusual. It's what most mailing lists do. See most GNOME lists, for instance. In general, it's the MUA that sends your copy, and in addition, the list server sends another. Both have the same Message-Id, and that can mean your mailserver decides you have it already, and drops the duplicate. There are headers suggested that request the reader's MUA to send you copies (or not), too. Someone will complain about whatever mailing list setup you use, however. Even me. Sure, and it's important to consider the audience, as well. If the maemo-users@ list set Reply-To and had a subject tag, I'd consider that reasonable. A maemo-developers@ list that did the same would be irritating. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 2/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New iteration: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] New list, interested people need to join. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. I don't really understand why don't you want to give us some extra headache with list renaming? :) See: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/faq.html The admins can do this of course, but I am not sure if the pain is really worth it. We should create an online survey service and get the opinion of the mass. A few emails that were sent as reply do not convince me. PS: Re-reading this thread and also http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/keesj/2007/02/02/developers_develop ers_developers I have second thoughts about the convenience of this proposal. I mean, I think it definitely makes sense and will improve things here but if this is not a shared thought the better (and the easiest) is to leave the lists as they are. I am not against any good changes, on the contrary... But in this case I would like to hear to hear 100s of opinions! Come on, we have ~1000 people on this list! -- Quim Gil Maemo team Cheers, ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Hi, would it be possible to have the list address as default reply-to address? i kept replying to the poster eventhough i only want to post to list :) yes, now i learn to use reply to all... if i remember :) regards, wahlau On 05/02/07, Ferenc Szekely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New iteration: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] New list, interested people need to join. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. I don't really understand why don't you want to give us some extra headache with list renaming? :) See: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/faq.html The admins can do this of course, but I am not sure if the pain is really worth it. We should create an online survey service and get the opinion of the mass. A few emails that were sent as reply do not convince me. PS: Re-reading this thread and also http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/keesj/2007/02/02/developers_develop ers_developers I have second thoughts about the convenience of this proposal. I mean, I think it definitely makes sense and will improve things here but if this is not a shared thought the better (and the easiest) is to leave the lists as they are. I am not against any good changes, on the contrary... But in this case I would like to hear to hear 100s of opinions! Come on, we have ~1000 people on this list! -- Quim Gil Maemo team Cheers, ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- = : : : --- normal reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] urgent reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- : : : == ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 2/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not against any good changes, on the contrary... But in this case I would like to hear to hear 100s of opinions! Come on, we have ~1000 people on this list! I'm ok with the current setup. Maybe just change the default reply-to or i'll always have to use reply-to-all.. ciao Luca ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
I'm ok with the current setup. Maybe just change the default reply-to or i'll always have to use reply-to-all.. Search the lists for reply-to, many people are vehemently against this change. It's not currently on the table for this discussion and if reply-to mangling is to be considered, it should be as a separate and distinct question from the other mailing list changes being discussed. To respond to Quim's question as to whether all this list rejiggering is necessary, I think the answer is no. I've pointed out before, and will point out one last time that application development discussions become API proposal discussions very fluidly and there's a benefit to keeping both discussions in the same arena. That said, if it's decided that there *must* be more lists, app/platform is the most sensible place to make a split. Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 2/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New iteration: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] New list, interested people need to join. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers. I don't really understand why don't you want to give us some extra headache with list renaming? :) See: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/faq.html The admins can do this of course, but I am not sure if the pain is really worth it. We should create an online survey service and get the opinion of the mass. A few emails that were sent as reply do not convince me. I agree with Ferenc on this one. Leave well enough alone. Splitting up the list will only end up generating another list with more cross posting that we all have to keep up with. Renaming lists is always a bad idea, it just causes thousands of people to have to spend time reconfiguring their mail readers, add up the cost of that and see if there is enough benefit to justify it. :) Ed Okerson ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 2/5/07, Ferenc Szekely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not against any good changes, on the contrary... But in this case I would like to hear to hear 100s of opinions! Come on, we have ~1000 people on this list! I'm a subscriber and I'm all for it. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
I am not against any good changes, on the contrary... But in this case I would like to hear to hear 100s of opinions! Come on, we have ~1000 people on this list! I don't particularly mind the list structure the way it is. As far as removing the tag from the subject in favor of a List-something header: most webmail clients (gmail at least) don't allow you to filter on these headers. Is there any way the [maemo-developers] can be put onto the *end* of the subject? That way, it'll still be there for filtering, but it won't be taking up the valuable space at the beginning of the subject line. -- Just stop and take your secret journey, you will be a new box. --Leeta http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Hi, would it be possible to have the list address as default reply-to address? i kept replying to the poster eventhough i only want to post to list :) yes, now i learn to use reply to all... if i remember :) And reply to all causes the original poster to get two copies of the mail, one of which is not handled by list filters because it did not go through the list. It is a royal pain to reply to all and cut and past the list address from the cc to the to line and clean it up so as to not cause too much pain for others. 99% of the replys to list mail should go to the list, so that means either causing extra traffic for people who actually post to the list, or extra work when replying to the list. I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. Ed ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:55:12AM -0600, Ed Okerson wrote: And reply to all causes the original poster to get two copies of the mail, one of which is not handled by list filters because it did not go through the list. It is a royal pain to reply to all and cut and past the list address from the cc to the to line and clean it up so as to not cause too much pain for others. 99% of the replys to list mail should go to the list, so that means either causing extra traffic for people who actually post to the list, or extra work when replying to the list. Only for people with inferior mailers ;-) Yay for Mutt and single-keystroke reply-to-list! I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. I think I could deal with both, but if the mailing list software mangles the reply-to header, sooner or later I *will* post a personal message to the list by accident. Marius Gedminas -- The reason computer chips are so small is that computers don't eat much. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:55:12AM -0600, Ed Okerson wrote: And reply to all causes the original poster to get two copies of the mail, one of which is not handled by list filters because it did not go through the list. It is a royal pain to reply to all and cut and past the list address from the cc to the to line and clean it up so as to not cause too much pain for others. 99% of the replys to list mail should go to the list, so that means either causing extra traffic for people who actually post to the list, or extra work when replying to the list. Only for people with inferior mailers ;-) Yay for Mutt and single-keystroke reply-to-list! I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. I think I could deal with both, but if the mailing list software mangles the reply-to header, sooner or later I *will* post a personal message to the list by accident. You are right, I just did not have the list module installed in the reader, it works better now. I no longer care. :) Ed ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
ok. my preferences: lists: keep them as they are. reply-to: mangle them tags: don't care if you mangle the reply-to headers. keep them if not. best regards, kemal On 2/5/07, Ed Okerson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:55:12AM -0600, Ed Okerson wrote: And reply to all causes the original poster to get two copies of the mail, one of which is not handled by list filters because it did not go through the list. It is a royal pain to reply to all and cut and past the list address from the cc to the to line and clean it up so as to not cause too much pain for others. 99% of the replys to list mail should go to the list, so that means either causing extra traffic for people who actually post to the list, or extra work when replying to the list. Only for people with inferior mailers ;-) Yay for Mutt and single-keystroke reply-to-list! I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. I think I could deal with both, but if the mailing list software mangles the reply-to header, sooner or later I *will* post a personal message to the list by accident. You are right, I just did not have the list module installed in the reader, it works better now. I no longer care. :) -- Kemal ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
List descriptions need to be made clear on Maemo.org and in list management tools (users is for app-developers is more clear than users is for users, etc) End-user type questions should be directed to ITT forums. I could support a new list for end/power users if it proves necessary. Keep headers as they are. I'd rather continue to bug GMail about adding a Reply to List feature than muck with something that already works. --Paul On 2/5/07, Kemal Hadimli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ok. my preferences: lists: keep them as they are. reply-to: mangle them tags: don't care if you mangle the reply-to headers. keep them if not. best regards, kemal On 2/5/07, Ed Okerson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 10:55:12AM -0600, Ed Okerson wrote: And reply to all causes the original poster to get two copies of the mail, one of which is not handled by list filters because it did not go through the list. It is a royal pain to reply to all and cut and past the list address from the cc to the to line and clean it up so as to not cause too much pain for others. 99% of the replys to list mail should go to the list, so that means either causing extra traffic for people who actually post to the list, or extra work when replying to the list. Only for people with inferior mailers ;-) Yay for Mutt and single-keystroke reply-to-list! I agree, change default reply-to to the list address. I think I could deal with both, but if the mailing list software mangles the reply-to header, sooner or later I *will* post a personal message to the list by accident. You are right, I just did not have the list module installed in the reader, it works better now. I no longer care. :) -- Kemal ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Levi Bard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As far as removing the tag from the subject in favor of a List-something header: most webmail clients (gmail at least) don't allow you to filter on these headers. Is there any way the [maemo-developers] can be put onto the *end* of the subject? That way, it'll still be there for filtering, but it won't be taking up the valuable space at the beginning of the subject line. I wish that the [maemo-developers] string would be removed altogether. It takes too much space from the Subject header and makes reading the subject too difficult. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Jac Kersing wrote: [Flags in the email subject] And I depend on them to quickly find messages the SPAM filter accidently tagged as spam (false positives). So please keep them as they are... Maybe shorten? [maemo-dev] [maemo-app] [maemo-usr] ? Hopefully there is no confusion with [maemo-app], maybe better use [maemo-appdev]. -Klaus ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 07:09 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you like the this idea, then? - platform (current maemo-developers) - applications (new list) - power users (current maemo-users) If you don't have dev or developer somewhere in those developer list names, they will be bothered with user questions, and those users will then be dissatisfied with being sent away. Descriptions aren't enough. Pure end users are currently out of our scope, although we wouldn't stop them in the power users list if they find it and are brave to ask. Otherwise there is InternetTabletTalk today, let's see if other interactive spaces around the Nokia's Internet Tablets are created. The ruleset might be, then: - If what you're trying to do involves the platform, it's maemo-developers@ - If what you're trying to do involves scratchbox, it's maemo-appdev@ - If what you're trying to do involves hacks on the device (such as using xterm), it's maemo-users@ - Otherwise, it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] or whatever. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
If you don't have dev or developer somewhere in those developer list names, they will be bothered with user questions, and those users will then be dissatisfied with being sent away. Descriptions aren't enough. I was waiting some kind of concept approval before going into wording. Let's see if this makes sense (at least to Ferenc, our dear server-side admin): [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (new list, interested people need to join) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 12:53 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't have dev or developer somewhere in those developer list names, they will be bothered with user questions, and those users will then be dissatisfied with being sent away. Descriptions aren't enough. I was waiting some kind of concept approval before going into wording. Let's see if this makes sense (at least to Ferenc, our dear server-side admin): [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) There's no dev, devel or development in the name. It will be bothered by users. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (new list, interested people need to join) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. It's annoying to me. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Dave Cridland wrote: On Fri Feb 2 10:56:24 2007, Murray Cumming wrote: On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 12:53 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) There's no dev, devel or development in the name. It will be bothered by users. I'd agree. I'd agree too. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (new list, interested people need to join) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. It's annoying to me. Actually, it's more than mere annoyance. On a small screen device (anyone around here got one of those?), a lengthy [list] prefix takes up a substantial chunk of space, meaning that the actual subject line itself is obscured. I agree on that too. Right now I cannot read the subject at all because of the flag (unless I expand the messages window all the way to the left, removing the list of folders, and move away the Date field [something that it does not even remember between consecutive runs) So I'd prefer them to be off, but I'd happy with a short prefix, too. Two letters could be enough. (The List-* headers are well worth looking at for those of us writing email clients.) Correct :) -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Am Freitag, den 02.02.2007, 12:53 +0200 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. Yes, please get rid of it. --Daniel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Quim, On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't have dev or developer somewhere in those developer list names, they will be bothered with user questions, and those users will then be dissatisfied with being sent away. Descriptions aren't enough. I was waiting some kind of concept approval before going into wording. Let's see if this makes sense (at least to Ferenc, our dear server-side admin): [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-developers@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (new list, interested people need to join) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (renamed maemo-users@maemo.org, no change in subscribers) About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. Without flags in the subject I am not sure how I will be able to filter the list as people sometimes reply directly instead of to the list. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Murray Cumming wrote: About the flags in the email subject, is this a problem? I can live with/without them, no strong opinion here. It's annoying to me. And I depend on them to quickly find messages the SPAM filter accidently tagged as spam (false positives). So please keep them as they are... Best regards, Jac --- Jac KersingTechnical Consultant The-Box Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP http://www.the-box.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Wed Jan 31 21:04:27 2007, Dave Neuer wrote: On 1/31/07, Mike Lococo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mainly, I think people need to be meaner on maemo-developers about pushing non-development discussion over to the users list. Tommi explained that maemo-users was for application developers (which makes sense to me, very analogous to the way other framework mailing lists work). The real end-user list would be something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] or users of particular applications (presumably hosted separately). So development discussions not pertaining to framework/platform development should be pushed to the users list; non-development issues should probably go to yet another list. Except that maemo-users@ has become the power-users mailing list, and it's hard to change the flow of a mailing list. Why not create a maemo-appdev@ for application development and discussion, and I think Nokia might consider a more end-user orientated mailing list as well. The ruleset might be, then: - If what you're trying to do involves the platform, it's maemo-developers@ - If what you're trying to do involves scratchbox, it's maemo-appdev@ - If what you're trying to do involves hacks on the device (such as using xterm), it's maemo-users@ - Otherwise, it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] or whatever. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Hi, The ruleset might be, then: - If what you're trying to do involves the platform, it's maemo-developers@ - If what you're trying to do involves scratchbox, it's maemo-appdev@ - If what you're trying to do involves hacks on the device (such as using xterm), it's maemo-users@ - Otherwise, it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] or whatever. I have said this before but I think it might work to have a community mailing list... something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] if what you are trying to do is brainstrorm new ideas or ramble on about what cool things you can do with your 770/N800 []'s Ian -- .''`. : :' : `. `'` `- Orgulhoso ser MetaRecicleiro http://manaus.metareciclagem.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Do you like the this idea, then? - platform (current maemo-developers) - applications (new list) - power users (current maemo-users) Pure end users are currently out of our scope, although we wouldn't stop them in the power users list if they find it and are brave to ask. Otherwise there is InternetTabletTalk today, let's see if other interactive spaces around the Nokia's Internet Tablets are created. The ruleset might be, then: - If what you're trying to do involves the platform, it's maemo-developers@ - If what you're trying to do involves scratchbox, it's maemo-appdev@ - If what you're trying to do involves hacks on the device (such as using xterm), it's maemo-users@ - Otherwise, it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] or whatever. -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list, leveraging the weight of this one? Contributors interested in that area could collaborate better. A list specialized in a specific topic would be also easier to join and follow for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] developer working on that topic. Please have your say. And now some numbers for the joy of statistics: looking at http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/ we can see that on December there was an average of 8 mails a day, while this month we are getting almost 30 emails. Of course the N800 launch has a lot to do with this increase, but nevertheless the average in 2006 was 12,3 emails/day (17,2 if you don't check this list during the weekend) ;) -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Hi Quim, We can move Python-specific discussions to the pymaemo mailing list at: https://garage.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/pymaemo-developers Thanks, Osvaldo On 1/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list, leveraging the weight of this one? Contributors interested in that area could collaborate better. A list specialized in a specific topic would be also easier to join and follow for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] developer working on that topic. [cut] -- Osvaldo Santana Neto (aCiDBaSe) http://www.pythonologia.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Perhaps separate the 800 and 770 into separate lists as obviously a lot of post are specific to one or the other? At 12:05 31/01/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C74530.2D0EC2B7; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5DD64D15 This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list, leveraging the weight of this one? Contributors interested in that area could collaborate better. A list specialized in a specific topic would be also easier to join and follow for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] developer working on that topic. Please have your say. And now some numbers for the joy of statistics: looking at http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/ we can see that on December there was an average of 8 mails a day, while this month we are getting almost 30 emails. Of course the N800 launch has a lot to do with this increase, but nevertheless the average in 2006 was 12,3 emails/day (17,2 if you don't check this list during the weekend) ;) -- Quim Gil Maemo team ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.16/660 - Release Date: 30/01/2007 17:04 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.16/660 - Release Date: 30/01/2007 17:04 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Maybe having development and external contribution lists could help keeping whish-lists and brainstorming apart from real development, considerably reducing the nois for developers. IMHO A maemo-mantainers could also help. Bye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list, leveraging the weight of this one? Contributors interested in that area could collaborate better. A list specialized in [...] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please have your say. Well, there are more frequent lists than this one - linux-kernel is one extreme example :-) I think more lists produce more confusion than single one. In fact I'd vote for joining maemo-users and developers as there is no really significant difference in topics posted to them. Developer questions get posted to maemo-users and vice versa and sometimes topics are duplicated since people don't read the other list. Of course the N800 launch has a lot to do with this increase, but nevertheless the average in 2006 was 12,3 emails/day (17,2 if you don't check this list during the weekend) ;) I'd wait and see, things may settle down a bit. But frankly, I don't really care. If lists get splitted I will subscribe to all of them (a bit of additional work) and use threaded mail client to solve the traffic problem like I do now. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 15:22 +0100, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think more lists produce more confusion than single one. In fact I'd vote for joining maemo-users and developers as there is no really significant difference in topics posted to them. Developer questions get posted to maemo-users and vice versa and sometimes topics are duplicated since people don't read the other list. The original intention for maemo-developers was for discussing development of the platform itself (think gtk-devel-list) and maemo-users for developing applications to run on maemo (gtk-app-devel-list) We haven't really been pushing people to other lists, though. It may or may not have been a good idea. -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
I'd wait and see, things may settle down a bit. But frankly, I don't really care. If lists get splitted I will subscribe to all of them (a bit of additional work) and use threaded mail client to solve the traffic problem like I do now. This is my opinion as well. -- Just stop and take your secret journey, you will be a new box. --Leeta http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 1/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list, leveraging the weight of this one? Contributors interested in that area could collaborate better. A list specialized in a specific topic would be also easier to join and follow for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] developer working on that topic. Please have your say. I have seen this sort of thing happen in countless mailing lists. People get overwhelmed by the volume of mails that don't interest them and proposing splitting up the lists. However, more often than not, it ends up creating a lot of confusion and cross-posting that actually ends up increasing the overall traffic and making people less happy. If you want to do this, make very very sure that you are splitting off a subject segment that has a very clear line between it and what was existing. If there is fuzziness then people with questions are just going to migrate where they get answers; no matter how inappropriate the list. Also, you will get into situations where users get ping-ponged between lists where each list is telling them to go to the other. The best thing to do would be to just set up some personal email filters that highlight the topics that you are interested in or the people that you respect the most and not worry about reading every email. It would be good if somebody at Nokia was assigned as the lucky catch-all person to make sure nothing important gets ignored by the other devs. There was a list of current issues being released weekly (I forgot specifically who was doing that) that I thought was great but I haven't seen it recently. I could understand how that would be a lot of work and not be very conducive to making friends though ;] /Mike ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 1/31/07, Levi Bard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd wait and see, things may settle down a bit. But frankly, I don't really care. If lists get splitted I will subscribe to all of them (a bit of additional work) and use threaded mail client to solve the traffic problem like I do now. This is my opinion as well. Perhaps. It all depends how popular the IT finally gets. It is my impression that while the quantity of the emails have been higher, so has the quality. Both maemo-users and maemo-developers has been relatively troll/flame free. /Mike ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 14:05 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list is growing and sometimes (like this month) is difficult to follow. What about finding a specific development area that could be discussed in a separate list [snip] There's no obvious way to split it at the moment. However, you can make it more readable for me by removing the huge [maemo-developers] prefix from the subject lines. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
I think more lists produce more confusion than single one. In fact I'd vote for joining maemo-users and developers as there is no really significant difference in topics posted to them. Developer questions get posted to maemo-users and vice versa and sometimes topics are duplicated since people don't read the other list. The original intention for maemo-developers was for discussing development of the platform itself (think gtk-devel-list) and maemo-users for developing applications to run on maemo (gtk-app-devel-list) We haven't really been pushing people to other lists, though. It may or may not have been a good idea. I would be wary of too much splitting, especially without _very_ clear delineations between the lists. I wouldn't suggest creating more than three areas, one for end users, one for application developers, and one for platform developers. But I think two lists is even more appropriate. Application development questions often evolve into platform api discussions and bug reports, and the line between the two is fluid. Mainly, I think people need to be meaner on maemo-developers about pushing non-development discussion over to the users list. Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On 1/31/07, Mike Lococo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mainly, I think people need to be meaner on maemo-developers about pushing non-development discussion over to the users list. Tommi explained that maemo-users was for application developers (which makes sense to me, very analogous to the way other framework mailing lists work). The real end-user list would be something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] or users of particular applications (presumably hosted separately). So development discussions not pertaining to framework/platform development should be pushed to the users list; non-development issues should probably go to yet another list. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Dave Neuer wrote: On 1/31/07, Mike Lococo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mainly, I think people need to be meaner on maemo-developers about pushing non-development discussion over to the users list. Tommi explained that maemo-users was for application developers (which makes sense to me, very analogous to the way other framework mailing lists work). The real end-user list would be something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] or users of particular applications (presumably hosted separately). So development discussions not pertaining to framework/platform development should be pushed to the users list; non-development issues should probably go to yet another list. It makes sense to me as well, but I would recommend changing the name of the lists to make the intent clear. At a minimum a better description of each of the lists and the intent of each list on the page where one joins. This will of course not stop cross posting or needy folks posting where they get attention. Dave ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- John P. Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off?
Summarizing the first round: - If developers don't see a clear need to create new lists there is no point creating them. The problem with this kind of discussions is that you get the opinions of the ones that are happy inside. It's more difficult to get opinions from those not reading the emails anymore, the ones that already unsubscribed and the ones that didn't join (i.e. because of the amount of traffic). Also, projects grow. Imagine Debian or GNOME with 2 mailing lists and then filtering. But yes, point taken. - Let's discuss this idea of separating platform / applications. It was the original thought, it makes sense. - Maemo is a community of developers, if end users end up here is because they don't have another mailing list where to get support. Nokia is not providing that space nowadays. The InternetTabletTalk web forum is doing a great work in this sense, though. We need to decide what we want to do with the end users among us as well. Until now we are getting mostly power users, who anyway enjoy discussing near to developers. But as the Internet Tablets are sold, more pure users are joining this community and surely many of them will want basic support and only basic support. What is the approach of the maemo community towards them? - There is an offer to discuss Python related topics at https://garage.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/pymaemo-developers . It's up to you to officialize this or not. We at OSSO will follow the trend. - There have been other offers, it looks like we should keep them quiet by now. I definitely wouldn't make any distinction between 770 and N800, though. And an additional opinion. Perhaps one day will make sense to have a first experiment with the Graphics/UI people. Programmers and designers have generally different mindsets and priorities. Both need to know what the other group is doing but generally they can do with updated documentation i.e. in wiki pages, avoiding the internal discussion in the lists. One of the purposes of this proposal of creating specialized lists was to find a better way to interact with specialized developers here in the OSSO team. We have some brave Graphics/UI OSSO members in this list and they want to improve the communication with their counterparts in the community. Let us know if this try would make sense. -- Quim Gil Maemo team -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Tommi Komulainen Sent: 31 January, 2007 17:23 To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] New list spin-off? On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 15:22 +0100, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think more lists produce more confusion than single one. In fact I'd vote for joining maemo-users and developers as there is no really significant difference in topics posted to them. Developer questions get posted to maemo-users and vice versa and sometimes topics are duplicated since people don't read the other list. The original intention for maemo-developers was for discussing development of the platform itself (think gtk-devel-list) and maemo-users for developing applications to run on maemo (gtk-app-devel-list) We haven't really been pushing people to other lists, though. It may or may not have been a good idea. -- Tommi Komulainen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
