Re: Where is telnet?
Just a small correction: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Alberto Garcia agar...@igalia.com wrote: People have already ported software that is much more complex than telnet, such as OpenOffice, KDE or Pidgin. Nobody has ported OpenOffice. I developed a hack that runs OpenOffice in a Debian chroot. This same Debian chroot can also run every command line tool available within Debian, including telnet, nmap and netcat. All of these (and hundreds more) are available with a simple apt-get install. Ubuntu has also made a tablet-compatible armel distribution available, and so you can chroot into an Ubuntu rootfs as well. It is also possible to set up an entire development environment in the chroot that allows you to build Debian or Ubuntu source packages on the tablet. I built the entire Enlightenment e17 suite on-tablet using an Ubuntu chroot and a turnkey build script that I downloaded. It took the tablet 8-10 hours to do it ;-) ... but it worked! I don't believe it is Nokia's responsibility to provide developers with hacker's tools. Especially since they are free for the taking in several other places. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Alberto Garcia wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 09:30:23PM +0100, Peter Flynn wrote: It's sad that there is no evidence that Nokia marketing even understand that the problem exists, let alone understand the problem itself. I think that neither Debian or Ubuntu come with telnet installed by default. I'm not completely sure, but I found myself having to install it in some friends' computers a couple of times. OpenSUSE has it installed. However, in my experience, working with computer networking equipment, I find it rare to need it. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one company's products that have telnet, but not ssh. On other gear, I disable telnet access, in favour of ssh. That same company also doesn't use NTP, which I find annoying. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:45 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. ...a server device over which *you* have total control and which *has* SSH available. Such is *not* always the case... FWIW, I work extensively with networking and telecommunications equipment. As I mentioned in anther note, only one company's products won't do ssh. Linux supports ssh out of the box and you have to do a bit of work to enable telnet access to a Linux system. I don't think you can telnet to a Windows box, without adding software. The last OS I worked with that easily supported telnet access was OS/2. Anyone who'd use telnet over the internet is asking for trouble as it's very easy to read the user ID password. A few years ago, I demonstrated to my manager how easy it was to do so. Telnet should only be used when ssh is not available. Also, I'd question the security of any system where it wasn't available. Are you likely to have problems on a home network? No. But it should never be used anywhere else. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Hi, ext Matan Ziv-Av wrote: Telnet isn't something that's either: - Needed by the device itself - An essential (needed in installing most of Debian packages without them declaring a separate dependency) The same is true for chvt, netstat, uniq, and probably many others, yet they were included. chvt: needed by device bootup scripts uniq: essential (also POSIX standard utility) netstat: legacy. we've considered removing it (along with some other legacy non-essentials in Bysybox), but our own developers use it often[1] and removing it from public releases doesn't really save that much space The reason why I talk about our own developers is that their situation is very different from external application developers (advanced) users. Our own developers may need to flash new releases many times a day and need to debug situations where the new internal release cannot even connect to network at bootup. I.e. installing additional packages from repositories isn't really an option. However, the published releases don't have anymore these kind of issues and releases happen only couple of times per year, so for end-users installing tools from a repository after downloading flashing a new release is completely valid option and a right thing to do. The decision to not include telnet was a bad decision. Admitting to mistakes and fixing them (even if only in Fremantle) is better than attacking someone who expects to have telnet on his internet tablet. If my reply seemed like an attack, I apologize, it wasn't meant as such. It's an (advanced) end-user tool and can be installed separately. Have you tested that Busybox telnet even works as well as real telnet? With the past experience I have some doubts about the quality of misc Busybox tools. :-) Yes, I have. And even if it does not, it surely does better than no telnet at all. The problem of adding new things to Busybox is that: - they then conflict with the real alternatives - they increase our essential/base set (busybox is essential so anything added to it becomes then an essential too) That's not good from the package management point of view. See e.g. bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2896 This has been discussed quite extensively on this list and in bugzilla. I hope we have a solution for this in Fremantle. I wonder what kind of QA did Nokia run on busybox's top or nslookup (for example) before deciding to include them? Busybox top is (still[1]) crap and is problematic because it conflicts with procps that provides much nicer top and also many nice other tools. However, (some kind of) top being pre-installed on the device is really a must for us useful for all developers and many advanced users. nslookup removal has been considered but hasn't been done so far. [1] Despite the multiple rewrites on the code I originally sent to Busybox authors. :-) Life with the tablet could be a bit simpler if Nokia chose to include more stuff that is available in busybox (md5sum, cpio, hexdump, ...). md5sum is an essential + there's a bug about it missing in bugs.maemo.org. As a result it's included into Fremantle busybox (along with quite many other utilities belonging to Debian essential packages Busybox claims to be providing). cpio hexdump aren't essential (in the upstream compatibility / Debian packaging sense), so they can be installed separately. cpio is in Debian in cpio and hexdump in bsdmainutils package. Some of them will be included into Fremantle; the ones that are in Debian in packages that Busybox currently claims to provide and conflicts with and which provide options compatible with GNU tools. Other tools belong to somewhere else. telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Device has application manager apt-get. Claiming that in an Internet device everything needs to be pre-installed into the device itself is so mid-90's. :-) - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Back in those days, BBS systems were generally not on the internet. You'd access them with a dial up modem and terminal app, such as Hyperterminal, that's now commonly found on Windows. You did not have an IP connection to the BBS, just serial ASCII. Telnet is used over IP. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:10 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:45 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. ...a server device over which *you* have total control and which *has* SSH available. Such is *not* always the case... FWIW, I work extensively with networking and telecommunications equipment. As I mentioned in anther note, only one company's products won't do ssh. Linux supports ssh out of the box and you have to do a bit of work to enable telnet access to a Linux system. I don't think you can telnet to a Windows box, without adding software. The last OS I worked with that easily supported telnet access was OS/2. Anyone who'd use telnet over the internet is asking for trouble as it's very easy to read the user ID password. A few years ago, I demonstrated to my manager how easy it was to do so. Telnet should only be used when ssh is not available. Also, I'd question the security of any system where it wasn't available. Are you likely to have problems on a home network? No. But it should never be used anywhere else. Again, you're talking from a server-side viewpoint, where you have control over what's available. Also, you're too paranoid. Sometimes security is irrelevant, such as with throw-away logins for stuff that has zero personal information and you'll never use again and situations where the complete user area (or even the entire computer) is a sandbox and completely overwritten for a totally fresh start every day. As I said before, your personal experience is *not* the be-all and end-all. Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:20 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Back in those days, BBS systems were generally not on the internet. You'd access them with a dial up modem and terminal app, such as Hyperterminal, that's now commonly found on Windows. You did not have an IP connection to the BBS, just serial ASCII. Telnet is used over IP. No kidding. Just as telnet needs a command prompt window on WinNT/XP, it needed a window to display the text interface in Win3.11. Hyperterminal was preinstalled and worked just fine for that. Hyperterminal was no different than a command prompt window in Windows or a terminal window in Linux, just an easy tool to interface the user with a command prompt, which could be accessed in other ways as well. None of the command line windows are in and of themselves communications apps or protocols, they just provide access to them. The app on my Psion was very similar to Hyperterminal, but since its OS was neither Windows nor Mac nor *nix, there was never a GUI or other semi-automated app to connect to my ISP. It had its own app to enter the dialup settings and connect, but then I used the terminal app to telnet to my ISP's server as well as my work servers. (But I could also send AT commands directly from the terminal to establish the connection.) The work ones eventually went to SSH (only a couple of years ago), but that's beside the point, as the issue at hand is the existence of telnet software on standard Windows installations. I don't often have a need for telnet anymore, but I do occasionally have to open a command prompt in whatever OS I'm on and use it. It is NOT completely useless. By the way, command line ftp is experiencing similar issues: There's often not a preinstalled GUI app for ftp, and secure ftp is becoming more common. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. That's a client side issue as you've most likely got different versions of PuTTY on each system. sshd is pretty light on resource use -- even better if you're using dropbear. So unless you're using antiquated hardware or don't care about sending your credentials in plaintext, telnet's only useful for debugging. I've found netcat (nc) to be more useful since it can listen as well as connect. -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Gary g...@eyetraxx.net wrote: Mark wrote: Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. That's a client side issue as you've most likely got different versions of PuTTY on each system. sshd is pretty light on resource use -- even better if you're using dropbear. So unless you're using antiquated hardware or don't care about sending your credentials in plaintext, telnet's only useful for debugging. I've found netcat (nc) to be more useful since it can listen as well as connect. -Gary It's obviously client-side, but the versions are identical: kubuntu 9.04, Putty the identical most recent version available. I've tried deleting the profile and re-adding it, but that doesn't work. I think I need to figure out how to purge the key and reload it. There isn't anything obvious in the GUI to do that, but I haven't spent a lot of time investigating because accessing that particular server isn't critical to me, and I can always boot over to Windows if I really need to. Or even use the tablet, as it's connecting fine with OpenSSH. As I said, sometimes I *don't* care about sending my credentials in plaintext, because there's no possibility of anyone using them against me in any way that matters. I just don't use credentials that I use anywhere else. In fact, that can be a *good* thing, as in misdirection... I can lug my wallet around in a safe if I'm that paranoid, but personally I think I have bigger things to worry about than my wallet if I'm being mugged, and someone can still take the whole safe and crack it at their leisure. Overkill is overkill, and paranoia is seldom useful. I can understand being careful about preventing ID theft/fraud (I am myself), but being paranoid about every little thing is absurd. I mean, really, why do you care if somebody reads your emails or overhears your conversations, unless you're doing something you shouldn't? There's a big difference between being reasonably careful and being paranoid. And if you live somewhere that you're being oppressed for things that are perfectly acceptable, that's you're fault. You have options: either take an active role in changing things, or move somewhere else. Bitching, moaning and complaining to people who can't do anything about it and being paranoid all the time isn't going to solve anything and in fact only makes things worse. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, sometimes I *don't* care about sending my credentials in plaintext, because there's no possibility of anyone using them against me in any way that matters. I just don't use credentials that I use anywhere else. In fact, that can be a *good* thing, as in misdirection... I can lug my wallet around in a safe if I'm that paranoid, but personally I think I have bigger things to worry about than my wallet if I'm being mugged, and someone can still take the whole safe and crack it at their leisure. Overkill is overkill, and paranoia is seldom useful. I can understand being careful about preventing ID theft/fraud (I am myself), but being paranoid about every little thing is absurd. I mean, really, why do you care if somebody reads your emails or overhears your conversations, unless you're doing something you shouldn't? There's a big difference between being reasonably careful and being paranoid. And if you live somewhere that you're being oppressed for things that are perfectly acceptable, that's you're fault. You have options: either take an active role in changing things, or move somewhere else. Bitching, moaning and complaining to people who can't do anything about it and being paranoid all the time isn't going to solve anything and in fact only makes things worse. Mark, I will print your comment, frame it, and hang it on the wall. Just to have it ready to be copied the next time I run into one of those security zealots with cold war mindset. Kudos for the common sense. FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Matan Ziv-Av wrote: The telnet package on my N810 is from this repository, according to apt-cache policy: Also, it looks like netcat can be obtained from the tools repository. See this page to activate and install tools: http://maemo.org/development/tools. q.v. http://maemo.org/development/documentation/man_pages -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. For more info, including timeline data, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winsock Funny how firsts can be unclear. If you try to find out when the first computer mouse (and GUI) was invented, not only was it *long* before Apple, it was also long before SPARC. It's a lot safer to say something existed *by* a certain time than to say it never existed before that. The only reason your statement is correct is because it adds and web browser to the TCP/IP stack. That was before IE existed (it was initially part of Plus! for Windows 95), and the Windows browser of choice at the time was NCSA Mosaic, on which Netscape Navigator was based, but no browser came with Windows 3.x. This is becoming a real nostalgia trip... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. Sorry, I missed the 3.11 in your statement. Yet, I assumed, and continue to think that WfW (which we in the Team OS/2 referred to as Windows for Warehouses) included only NETBIOS/Netbeui/IPX protocols as the base for Peer to peer LAN networking (printer sharing, disk sharing), but not TCP/IP. Where to get TCP/IP for WfW 3.11 ? http://lists.samba.org/archive/samba/1998-July/007965.html http://stason.org/TULARC/os/windows-winsock/11-Microsoft-TCP-IP-32.html This is Microsoft's stack for use with Windows NT or Windows for Workgroups 3.11. Unfortunately, this stack does NOT support dialup connections. Free for owners of Windows NT or Windows for Workgroups. Available from: ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/peropsys/windows/Public/tcpip/; Download TCP/IP for Windows 3.11b http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;99891 FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. IIRC, Windows for Workgroups included NetBIOS networking, which was the default networking for Windows, DOS OS/2. IP support came with Windows 95, as initially Microsoft didn't think the internet would amount to much. Do not confuse networking with IP support. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Fernando Cassia wrote: Sorry, I missed the 3.11 in your statement. Yet, I assumed, and continue to think that WfW (which we in the Team OS/2 referred to as Windows for Warehouses) included only NETBIOS/Netbeui/IPX protocols as the base for Peer to peer LAN networking (printer sharing, disk sharing), but not TCP/IP. Some called it Windows for food groups. ;-) Quite right on the networking. IP was not included. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 1:52 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. IIRC, Windows for Workgroups included NetBIOS networking, which was the default networking for Windows, DOS OS/2. IP support came with Windows 95, as initially Microsoft didn't think the internet would amount to much. Do not confuse networking with IP support. Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Version 1.1 of Winsock (in case that's not clear, the Win is short for Windows...) came out in January 1993. That's Windows 3.x, for those of you who are paying attention. No, the very first version of Windows 3.0 didn't come with it out of the box, but that's one of the things that made WFW 3.11 for workgroups, as in businesses who need *all kinds* of networking, not just internal Windows ones. By Windows 95, IE came into existence and Micro$oft had begun their monopolistic drive in earnest. (And Winsock *was* integral with Win95.) But Windows 95 (and IE) was being developed by the time 3.11 came out... See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 The first PC I personally owned I bought in January 1995, with Windows 3.11 pre-installed (a Gateway 2000 P5-90). I can't speak for other or older versions or installations, but I didn't have to install winsock because it was already installed. Since Win32s was also already installed, maybe it was Gateway 2000's everything but the kitchen sink philosophy at work. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org Originally... As I said, it came preinstalled on my machine... But this is all beside the point, because the whole point of the conversation was that yes, telnet has been integral to Windows for well over a decade. Even if it were never available in 3.11, it most certainly was in Win95. Here's one of many how tos: http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/technicallibrary/misc/telnet/telnet.html And here's one that very clearly includes Windows 3.11: http://www.computerhope.com/software/telnet.htm And more indications of telnet on Win3.11: http://www.sxlist.com/techref/app/inet/telnet.htm http://www.internettechboston.com/2007/06/28/windows-vista-comes-with-telnet-uninstalled/ So, regardless of the TCP/IP stack, Windows 3.11 did in fact include telnet out of the box. So there! :-P Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support. So I WAS RIGHT!. I win. GRIN ;-) Now let's please return to the regular Nokia grilling. :-) FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org You need to re-read that: it says: an add-on package. In the case of later versions of WFW, that meant it shipped with, just not necessarily enabled. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Where is telnet?
Hi, I think there is no telnet. Install and use ssh instead, it is better and more secure. Best regards, Karoliina -Original Message- From: maemo-users-boun...@maemo.org [mailto:maemo-users-boun...@maemo.org] On Behalf Of ext Gary Mart Sent: 14 May, 2009 12:57 To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Where is telnet? When I try to run telnet from a terminal on my N810: ~ $ telnet -sh: telnet: not found And I could not find a downloadable version (at least 'search' found nothing). gmart ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Gary Mart wrote: When I try to run telnet from a terminal on my N810: ~ $ telnet -sh: telnet: not found And I could not find a downloadable version (at least 'search' found nothing). Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Where is telnet?
On Thursday 14 May 2009 11:56:35 karoliina.t.salmi...@nokia.com wrote: I think there is no telnet. Install and use ssh instead, it is better and more secure. An answer to Gary's question would have been more useful. Telnet is an important network troubleshooting tool, probably fourth in importance after ping, traceroute and dig/nslookup. For example, I often use it when trying to work out why SMTP or POP or some other access is not working correctly when I am using some random WiFi network somewhere: I telnet to the desired host/port and look to see if it is being intercepted by the ISP. Unfortunately, I don't have it on my N810 and can't find a copy of it. And the times I need it are when travelling and so I have not got around to porting it myself! Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Where is telnet?
Hi, Unfortunately, I don't have it on my N810 and can't find a copy of it. And the times I need it are when travelling and so I have not got around to porting it myself! Actually I would like to encourage you or someone else to port it if you need it. We are very busy here and can't port every app you would like to have, so if you really want it, please consider doing it by yourself. Advantage is that you get lots of fame for yourself by doing so, and that is the idea of the open device and open source. If something is missing you would need, you have the freedom to fill the void. Best Wishes, Karoliina ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, 14 May 2009, Gary Mart wrote: When I try to run telnet from a terminal on my N810: ~ $ telnet -sh: telnet: not found And I could not find a downloadable version (at least 'search' found nothing). The telnet package on my N810 is from this repository, according to apt-cache policy: http://maemo.daylessday.org chinook/user -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Where is telnet?
On Thu, 14 May 2009, karoliina.t.salmi...@nokia.com wrote: Hi, Unfortunately, I don't have it on my N810 and can't find a copy of it. And the times I need it are when travelling and so I have not got around to porting it myself! Actually I would like to encourage you or someone else to port it if you need it. We are very busy here and can't port every app you would like to have, so if you really want it, please consider doing it by yourself. This is very funny considering that telnet is available in busybox, so _not_ having it installed by default is a conscious decision by Nokia. Life with the tablet could be a bit simpler if Nokia chose to include more stuff that is available in busybox (md5sum, cpio, hexdump, ...). -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
James Knott wrote: Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. ssh -p 25 mail-server.example.com ssh -p 110 mail-server.example.com ssh -p 80 www.example.com Need more reasons? Ralph pgpAE47i9N0YZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Ralph Angenendt wrote: James Knott wrote: Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. ssh -p 25 mail-server.example.com ssh -p 110 mail-server.example.com ssh -p 80 www.example.com Need more reasons? While there are reasons for using telnet, there are also many reason to not use it. Some people may not be aware. That's why I asked. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Where is telnet?
Karoliina is right, but ... Some devices don't support ssh, so telnet is necessary. Many sensors and older print servers require telnet, and so on. This is what you can do: go to: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/armel/telnet/download select a site and download telnet. You might want an older version, though. After downloading rip apart the package and get thelnet.netkit. Rename it telnet, put it in /usr/bin and off you go to the races. This ugly approach is necessitated by the fact that dpkg -i telnet* command complains about libraries and refuses to configure the software. Good luck, julius On Thu, 14 May 2009 karoliina.t.salmi...@nokia.com wrote: Hi, I think there is no telnet. Install and use ssh instead, it is better and more secure. Best regards, Karoliina -Original Message- From: maemo-users-boun...@maemo.org [mailto:maemo-users-boun...@maemo.org] On Behalf Of ext Gary Mart Sent: 14 May, 2009 12:57 To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Where is telnet? When I try to run telnet from a terminal on my N810: ~ $ telnet -sh: telnet: not found And I could not find a downloadable version (at least 'search' found nothing). gmart ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
In the message dated: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:35:46 +0200, The pithy ruminations from Ralph Angenendt on Re: Where is telnet? were: = = James Knott wrote: = Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many = advantages over telnet. Yes, ssh has many advantages over telnet if the aim is to establish a remote login session. However, ssh is not an acceptable substitute for telnet if the aim is to establish an unencrypted TCP/IP connection to an arbitry port in order to exchange ASCII data. This is a common use of telnet as a network troubleshooting tool. = = ssh -p 25 mail-server.example.com = ssh -p 110 mail-server.example.com = ssh -p 80 www.example.com = Did you actually try those examples? They will fail when the ssh_exchange_identification part of the client-side protocol negotiation times out. = Need more reasons? In the examples you gave, after the ssh client establishes a connection up through OSI layer 4 (TCP) to the destination port, it then tries to negotiate the layer 7 (presentation) protocols. These include ssh_exchange_identification of the remote host, ssh key exchange, etc. In the examples given above, the common daemons listening on those ports (SMTP, POP3, HTTP) will not be able to complete the protocol negotiation with the ssh client, so the session will fail. I am not aware of any ssh options to disable all identification and encryption mechanisms so that ssh can function like telnet. This means that ssh cannot be used to, for example, connect to an SMTP server on port 25 an issue the commands: mail from: u...@example.com rcpt to: foo...@example.com data this is a mail message . I'd suggest using socat (a netcat work-alike) if telnet is not available. Mark = = Ralph ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Hi, ext Matan Ziv-Av wrote: Unfortunately, I don't have it on my N810 and can't find a copy of it. And the times I need it are when travelling and so I have not got around to porting it myself! Have you tried whether porting it require anything else besides downloading the sources from: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/telnet And doing dpkg-buildpackage in Sbox (after apt-getting the build deps)? It doesn't seem to have any funny deps. Actually I would like to encourage you or someone else to port it if you need it. We are very busy here and can't port every app you would like to have, so if you really want it, please consider doing it by yourself. This is very funny considering that telnet is available in busybox, so _not_ having it installed by default is a conscious decision by Nokia. Telnet isn't something that's either: - Needed by the device itself - An essential (needed in installing most of Debian packages without them declaring a separate dependency) It's an (advanced) end-user tool and can be installed separately. Have you tested that Busybox telnet even works as well as real telnet? With the past experience I have some doubts about the quality of misc Busybox tools. :-) Life with the tablet could be a bit simpler if Nokia chose to include more stuff that is available in busybox (md5sum, cpio, hexdump, ...). Some of them will be included into Fremantle; the ones that are in Debian in packages that Busybox currently claims to provide and conflicts with and which provide options compatible with GNU tools. Other tools belong to somewhere else. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:57 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: While there are reasons for using telnet, there are also many reason to not use it. Some people may not be aware. That's why I asked. except it's not optional. It's not a question of whether you are using it, it's a matter of a server - controlled by someone else - that you need to access is using it, and you have no choice in the matter. One size does *not* fit all. Trying to force your opinion on others is not optimal. And assuming right off the bat that someone is ignorant of the issues (especially when indications are otherwise) is less than helpful. A much better question is: why doesn't SSH include basic telnet functionality? Why force people to use two different apps for (at least at the top level) the same functionality? After all, telnet is simple to implement compared to SSH. Oh, wait, everybody should always be using SSH, never telnet Grrr... Whether you want to admit it or not, sometimes security really isn't needed, and applying security where it isn't needed adds unnecessary overhead and complexity. Would you carry around a solid steel safe just to hold your wallet? If you're that paranoid, you have issues I'm not going to attempt to address. To paraphrase what someone else said, just answer the d*** question. Editorial comments (even in the form of questions) are not helpful. If you can't answer the actual question that is asked (without trying to read between the lines or otherwise make unfounded assumptions), don't say anything at all. A clear and concise question calls for a clear and concise answer. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: snip telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org We've had this argument before. Nokia doesn't seem to understand that as shipped the tablets are really Web Tablets, not Internet Tablets, and not even that well-rounded in the Web department. (Although I have to give them credit for Flash support.) Misnomenclature aside, making claims about a device's abilities that can only be attained by installing additional or 3rd party apps or developing/porting them yourself amounts to false advertising. If it doesn't have a capability out of the box, then don't advertise it... Unfortunately, just as Micro$oft and others have lowered people's expectations of the quality of OSs and apps, Nokia's leadership has enabled the new crop of MIDs coming out to not be as full-featured as they ought to be. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 16:38, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Does it really matter when it's so trivial to port from upstream? Nokia has to make choices on what gets included or not - telnet isn't crucial to the software Nokia delivers, so it isn't included. However, it has taken me an XML file, smaller than the paragraph above, to tell mud[1] to take Debian stable's telnet package and upload it to Extras(-devel for now[2]). Let me know of any problems, or - if none - I'll promote it to Extras. Hope that helps, Andrew [1] http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/ [2] Needs an icon, a better section, a Maemo-specific version number to go with the above and a change to the maintainer line. -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 16:38, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Does it really matter when it's so trivial to port from upstream? Trivial for whom? Yes, it matters. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 19:33, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: [2] Needs an icon, a better section, a Maemo-specific version number to go with the above and a change to the maintainer line. Icon added; now in the correct[1] user/network; maintainer set to me and the version set to 0.17-maemo2. Going through the chinook, diablo fremantle autobuilders now. MUD source package also checked in: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/packages/telnet.pkg/?root=mud-builder On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 19:43, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: Does it really matter when it's so trivial to port from upstream? Trivial for whom? Yes, it matters. I'm not suggesting that any user who wants telnet should have to port it (although what I've just done is a packaging effort; not a developing one - you will need the SDK installed to test build the package, though) but that it is not something which requires innate knowledge that only Nokia can provide. HTH, Andrew [1] https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#New_list_for_Diablo -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:25:18AM -0600, Mark wrote: telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Misnomenclature aside, making claims about a device's abilities that can only be attained by installing additional or 3rd party apps or developing/porting them yourself amounts to false advertising. If it doesn't have a capability out of the box, then don't advertise it... Sorry guys, but I don't get this. People have already ported software that is much more complex than telnet, such as OpenOffice, KDE or Pidgin. If no one ever realised that telnet was so essential until May 2009 being such a trivial program to port then it probably wasn't that important after all. Sure, there are dozens of small command-line tools that some of us use everyday, but that doesn't mean that the tablet has to come with all of them installed. The root filesystem is already quite full as it is now. Are we going to have the same thread when someone misses nmap and netcat? Berto ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, 14 May 2009, Alberto Garcia wrote: If no one ever realised that telnet was so essential until May 2009 being such a trivial program to port then it probably wasn't that important after all. Please read the thread you respond to. Telnet is already available for a long time. It was available for OS2005 and then on. Sure, there are dozens of small command-line tools that some of us use everyday, but that doesn't mean that the tablet has to come with all of them installed. The root filesystem is already quite full as it is now. Compiling busybox with a few more useful utilities like telnet, hexdump, wget, traceroute, etc. only adds 100KB to the binary size. That is less than 0.05% of available space. Are we going to have the same thread when someone misses nmap and netcat? If people will attack the request instead of pointing to where the package is (both are available) then probably we will have. -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Alberto Garcia wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:25:18AM -0600, Mark wrote: telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Misnomenclature aside, making claims about a device's abilities that can only be attained by installing additional or 3rd party apps or developing/porting them yourself amounts to false advertising. If it doesn't have a capability out of the box, then don't advertise it... Sorry guys, but I don't get this. People have already ported software that is much more complex than telnet, such as OpenOffice, KDE or Pidgin. I think what it meant was that it doesn't have this capability out of the box. Sure, anyone can port anything, given enough time and patience; the error was at the marketing level in Nokia in misunderstanding the market it was aimed at, and thus failing to include the necessary ports. If no one ever realised that telnet was so essential until May 2009 being such a trivial program to port then it probably wasn't that important after all. I realised it immediately, as I use Telnet frequently from my desktop for checking access, as Graham described. But finding the toolchain and compiling a version myself proved so forbidding at the time that I gave up. Sure, there are dozens of small command-line tools that some of us use everyday, but that doesn't mean that the tablet has to come with all of them installed. The root filesystem is already quite full as it is now. Are we going to have the same thread when someone misses nmap and netcat? Quite possibly. But they certainly don't all have to be installed as of day one -- they just need to be available as add-ons. My gut feeling is that the vast majority of the stock commandline apps ought to compile as-is from Debian sources, but I'm happy to accept a developer's better judgment on that. I *did* manage to compile one little (200-line) specialist commandline C tool on my Ubuntu desktop for the Arm, which works perfectly (although I can't remember the incantation I used now)...but I do remember finding out how to do it was *really* hard; at one stage I downloaded and installed some monstrous development environment which everyone said was essential (to compile 200 lines of C?) which appeared to be an entire N800 emulator and which nearly killed my desktop system. rant It's sad that there is no evidence that Nokia marketing even understand that the problem exists, let alone understand the problem itself. Joe and Jill User will never in a million years buy a web tablet that looks and smells anything different from Windows, complete with all faults and bugs. On the other hand there are millions of developers, hackers, programmers, students, os-savvy businesspeople (yes, they do exist), and academics who will happily buy a pocket Linux system that has the same power that their desktop had only a few years ago, particularly from a well-known and trusted name like Nokia, but it needs to be similarly configurable. Don't get me wrong, I love my N800 and wouldn't trade it for anything else except its successor[s], but I just feel there is a badly-missed market segment there, and I find that surprising from a company with Nokia's rep and resources. I'm just grateful to all the people who have done so much to extend the software base as they have. /rant ///Peter ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:26 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. I've had this argument before in the Neuros OSD (LInux based PVR) mailing list. Basically, the security argument is ridiculous. Most pocket devices do not have CPU cycles to spare like a desktop. Thus, it's kinda ridiculous to do 3DES encryption to log-in to a local router or network device in the local LAN. If you can't trust your local home LAN, then you have biggest problems to begin with. So YES, Telnet is very useful for me to use on my home LAN with network centric devices (Axis print server, Intel InBusiness storage station, Maxtor NAS) that have telnet but no SSH available. Just my $0.02. FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 09:30:23PM +0100, Peter Flynn wrote: It's sad that there is no evidence that Nokia marketing even understand that the problem exists, let alone understand the problem itself. I think that neither Debian or Ubuntu come with telnet installed by default. I'm not completely sure, but I found myself having to install it in some friends' computers a couple of times. I use ssh a lot on my tablet and I honestly have never felt the need to use telnet. I imagine that no one from Nokia felt that it was that important either. And that's it. I'm not trying to say that telnet is useless, and it would probably be nice if it was installed by default, but I think that you guys are exaggerating the magnitude of the problem. Don't know what the market target of the tablets is, but the spots talk about web browsing, voice/video calls, GPS and the media player, not about Linux or a hackable device. In fact I know quite a few non-technical guys who bought a tablet and all of them use it happily without even needing the X Terminal. Berto ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Alberto == Alberto Garcia agar...@igalia.com writes: Alberto I think that neither Debian or Ubuntu come with telnet Alberto installed by default. I have it on my ubuntu desktop, and don't remember specifically installing it, but of course it's been being upgraded for 4 or 5 years now, so any relationship to the out-of-the box install is purely coincidental. -- Laura (mailto:lcon...@laymusic.org http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 If you find you are serving the same thing too often to the same people, then invite someone else instead. It is much easier to change your friends than your recipes. Peg Bracken ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Alberto Garcia agar...@igalia.com wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 09:30:23PM +0100, Peter Flynn wrote: It's sad that there is no evidence that Nokia marketing even understand that the problem exists, let alone understand the problem itself. I think that neither Debian or Ubuntu come with telnet installed by default. I'm not completely sure, but I found myself having to install it in some friends' computers a couple of times. You are mistaken. Debian and Ubuntu *do* in fact come with telnet installed by default. If you (or your friends) aren't comfortable with the command line, then you may have to install a GUI app. All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Fernando Cassia wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:26 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. I've had this argument before in the Neuros OSD (LInux based PVR) mailing list. Basically, the security argument is ridiculous. Most pocket devices do not have CPU cycles to spare like a desktop. Thus, it's kinda ridiculous to do 3DES encryption to log-in to a local router or network device in the local LAN. If you can't trust your local home LAN, then you have biggest problems to begin with. So YES, Telnet is very useful for me to use on my home LAN with network centric devices (Axis print server, Intel InBusiness storage station, Maxtor NAS) that have telnet but no SSH available. Just my $0.02. FC FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:45 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Fernando Cassia wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:26 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Any reason why you're using telnet instead of ssh? Ssh has many advantages over telnet. I've had this argument before in the Neuros OSD (LInux based PVR) mailing list. Basically, the security argument is ridiculous. Most pocket devices do not have CPU cycles to spare like a desktop. Thus, it's kinda ridiculous to do 3DES encryption to log-in to a local router or network device in the local LAN. If you can't trust your local home LAN, then you have biggest problems to begin with. So YES, Telnet is very useful for me to use on my home LAN with network centric devices (Axis print server, Intel InBusiness storage station, Maxtor NAS) that have telnet but no SSH available. Just my $0.02. FC FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. ...a server device over which *you* have total control and which *has* SSH available. Such is *not* always the case... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users