Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud thierry.vign...@gmail.com: On 1 October 2010 04:07, Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org wrote: While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! I've packaged this extension (in contribs) a long time ago so that not every user of a sytem has to install it in its own account. Of course you still have to subscribe to easylist. Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became unstable but not one second faster. Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that bling-bling stuff. Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the user what he wants to do. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:49:34 + (UTC), André Machado wrote about Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?: Think in emotive computer. Think that user starts up your computer and sees a window with text: Good morning/afternon/night username!. And in another line, You have 3 new e-mails. And on side, tue current weather and, below, a list of user compromises for that day, all together the hardware information and shortcuts for common tasks and diagnostic tests of hardware and software, and a warning that package updates are available! - yes, I had all these new ideas now! Well, YMMV, but that is precisely the kind of computer I want to have only as far away from me as possible: I want to be in control, I have enough emotions at work, at home, in transport and in recreation - I want my boxen to be tools without *any* emotion or interest in me, just let them do for me what I choose to imagine as far as they can. No more no less. Also, it does not have to approach the looks of a mobile phone. Anyway, I'll see what Mageia gives when it is there. So far she remains my best choice still. (Compare my headers ;) Ciao, =Dick Gevers=
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became unstable but not one second faster. Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that bling-bling stuff. Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the user what he wants to do. Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... Installing the extension doesn't mean neither auto subscrubing nor being unable to disable it
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud thierry.vign...@gmail.com: On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became unstable but not one second faster. Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that bling-bling stuff. Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the user what he wants to do. Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... C'mon, a browser is not the same as a browser extension. Of course there must be defaults. But installing browser extensions by default is too much default IMHO. Same as with mail clients. You should set a mail client by default but you should not add any extensions to this client by default. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com: 2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud thierry.vign...@gmail.com: On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com wrote: Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became unstable but not one second faster. Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that bling-bling stuff. Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the user what he wants to do. Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... C'mon, a browser is not the same as a browser extension. Of course there must be defaults. But installing browser extensions by default is too much default IMHO. Same as with mail clients. You should set a mail client by default but you should not add any extensions to this client by default. wobo Please do not make any extension as default. Even do not paxckage extensions. A user should decide which extension he/she uses. Also, i don't understand why extensions packaged. Day by day extensions updated on upstream. So, packages left behind current versions. Btw, i noticed that Firefox installed in /usr/share/firefox-release-number. I don't know how buildsystem works but when ff updated all extensions must be updated for new install dir. Doesn't this behaviour brings extra workload?
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2010-10-01 06:38, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : I've been following closely all the Mandriva vs Mageia story. I found it unfortunate that we have to come to this way, but I guess there's a serious fracture between Mandriva and part of its community. We have no choice except to cope with this and try to do our best to allow this unfortunate situation to found a sensible solution in the future. As we know, one of the Mandriva strenght are the Mandriva tools, however Mandriva tools have some issues : - they are written in perl. Sorry for perl dev, but I do still think that perl is harder to understand than C-like based syntax langages. However we must admit that we are not going to rewrite all the Mandriva tools ;-) However better documentation ( PerlDoc tags ) could help a little. - Mandriva tools are not used by others distributions ( except PCLinuxOS, United Linux, and ... Mageia ) and so have few external contributions : They notably lack visibility. I do think also that Mandriva will have to use its ressources in an efficient way. Here aree my proposals, feel free to discuss : 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to have a Mandriva account ) 2. Make some decisions about the tools we should keep, and the ones we should ... trash. For example we did replace printerdrake with system-config-printer ( python ), and msec have been rewritten ( python ). Whereas I do think that system-config-printer is way buggier than printerdrake, I guess that at some points, we will have to do this more and more : replace some Mandriva tools with for example some Fedora ones. Please note however that this bring its own issues : python vs perl, and the integration with the rest of Mandriva infrastructure 3. A decision will have to be made concerning net_applet and NetworkManager 4. Whereas I do love rpmdrake, I do think also that something will have to be done about it as its UI is clearly outdated and not on par with the competition : - Ubuntu software center : http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/09/software-center-with-a-dose-of-zeitgeist-and-maybe-teamgeist/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter - iTunes App Store : http://www.askdavetaylor.com/how_to_download_iphone_apps_from_apple_itunes_store.html , http://cybernetnews.com/download-iphone-firmware-20-itunes-77-app-store-and-more/ - Interesting discussion about PackageKit direction : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/a-story-about-updates-and-people/ So we may have to completely rewrite rpmdrake UI or switch to packagekit with and urpmi backend. 5. Junior tasks contributions. I noticed while visiting the LibreOffice website. They have junior task for people willing to contribute to the codebase, and most of theses junior tasks consist to improve code clarity, fix comments. I guess that the same thing could be done with Mandriva tools, notably adding perldoc tags/comments. Last but not least, I know that on Mageia ML, there was a discussion about the people we should target. Here are some interesting reflexions : Sweet Caroline : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/ fedoraproject.org redesign update : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/ You must be this tall to ride: __ : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/you-must-be-this-tall-to-ride-__/ Thanks for your observations Fabrice. Just speaking from the user point of view. Let us not lose sight that one of the strong points of Mandriva/Mageia is the use of the MCC. Having all the controls under one title and well integrated is what really distinguishes Mandriva from the other distros. Practically in all of the news items that I have read of Mandriva, they mention the powerful tools at the users' disposal to help in configure/maintain the Mandriva distro, and this type of comment has been going on for years. I hope that Mageia would not stray from this tool. Whichever way the devs decide to programme the tools from the back-en does not matter to the user. How easily it is to configure/maintain the distro is what counts to the user and it is quite a strong selling point. When I help out people with their Mandriva setup and I tell them to go to their MCC (if they are not familiar with it, I usually say You know, the blue sceen and red wrench thingy at the bottom of your monitor., they are confortable in using it. The only thing that I find lacking for the MCC is the lack of immediate help. If a user has never used a section of MCC, they will normally abandon the use of that section. But if there were a help button that would explain, in a graphic way (either video or by slide show) the use of that section, then that would go a long way in helping out. I sincerely hope that the MCC (Mageia Contol Centre) will not be abandoned. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com: Somehow I have a feeling this thread will be a deja vu of the rpm vs. deb thread... Yes, the magic of mailists strikes again. And of course, the same arguments will be restated again because people can not browse back to the previous arguments. In a lot of cases, Déjà vu could almost be called the alias of Mailist. LOL this is not rpm vs deb or synaptic vs smart vs rpmdrake. This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes buggy. The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another GUI. -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 12:52 +0200, Olivier Blin a écrit : Fabrice Facorat fabrice.faco...@gmail.com writes: 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to have a Mandriva account ) Why host them externally? A self-hosted forge is probably better. Yup, and I can only add a link http://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push incremental patchsets. I would be in favor of 1 git repository for 1 software, even if I didn't see people complaining that svn prevented them to provides patches :) On the infrastructure side, it was also proposed to look at gitorious for this. Is it packaged in mandriva ? ( if not, maybe that would be a good way to help ). -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2010-10-01 07:23, Tux99 a écrit : On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Fabrice Facorat wrote: This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes buggy. The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another GUI. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the GUI of the draktools. If imrpoving them means to rewrite them from scratch or replace them with inferior tools from other distros, then that would be a big effort and/or step backwards just for the estetics. Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. P.S: cc'ing in both cooker and mageia lists is not a good idea as many people are not on both lists so the discussion will just split in two Ooops, Tux99, it also looks like your post has broken the thread on the dev side. The thread probably best belongs on the dev mailist. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Hello
Hi zieduz Did you put your name in the wiki? www.mageia.org/wiki Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I'm not sure what's going on with this ML. I responded to a post by Graham Lauder, and it ended up going to him but not the ML. He then responded to me privately, and we both agreed to repost to the ML. According to the gmane archives, he did, but I never received his repost, so I can't place my reply in the correct branch of the thread. I'll post it here, just so that it's *somewhere* in the thread... Graham Lauder wrote: 42 for me, I started with NCR in August of 1968 and went on to be MD of my own company for eighteen years, these days retired on my little country estate, wonderful lifestyle, bloody awful internet connection. :) Congrats, we're both old farts :-) And this is not economics this is Marketing 101 No, sorry, it's not marketing when you frame it as you did: We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on contract and so on and so forth. That's economics, pure and simple. Marketing is trying to make something attractive to potential purchasers. A distro doesn't have any of those. You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. [] If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market Oh, come on. Trumpeting and advertising are essentially the same thing, at last in the context of this discussion. And what you're advocating is certainly exclusion; you're saying that we should design and promote the distro as a fill-in-the-blank distro in order to capture the mindset of a specific market share, to the implicit exclusion of other aims if resource limitations encroach. I'm a marketing guy not a hacker and I haven't been part of the marketing of OBS, but I seem to remember that OBS packages for a whole heap of distros including even deb based ones. However I may be wrong talk to Jos Poortvliet or Andreas Jaeger on the opensuse lists OK, then maybe we need to look at piggybacking on OBS. The idea I floated was an idea, with a suggestion of an implementation. If there's a better implementation, that's fine; we can use it. Focus is all about excluding non-essential activities so that a company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific market. Focus in this case is about establishing branding, nothing else You're entitled to your definition, as I am mine. In common parlance (as well as in this industry) focus (as used by non-developers) very definitely implied concentrate on this and not that. That not branding; it's triage and prioritization. I am wondering why you are trying to convince me, this is not my decision, I am merely an idea generator. I give reasons as to why I believe that this target market is a good one and I foster debate. My goal is simply to establish criteria for branding, nothing else right now. I'm not sure how seriously to take this. You post an opinion about channeling the distro to a specific audience, and when I respond, you wonder why I'm trying to convince *you* ? Frankly, I doubt if I *could* convince you, and it was never my intention to try. I know an enthusiast when I read one. I'm simply participating in the debate you initiated and want to foster. Which includes the issue of whether we need branding at the distro level or not. My opinion is that we do not. Our infrastructure costs will be relatively fixed, and will be dwarfed by the cost of developer and other contributor time it will take to maintain Mageia. The community resources we will discourage by advertising ourselves as a niche distro will cost us much more than the infrastructure budget. So, while I would concede that your branding argument would make sense if we were embarking on a commercial venture, I'd have to say that it is pretty low on the priority list for a community distro.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 00:43, Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org wrote: Yup, the distro that make you become expert, something like that. One thing we must not forget is that we need people that contribute if we want to survive. A commercial distribution requires money ( and therefore users that can bring money , either directly, or either indirectly ( service, ads, etc )) to survive. We are not a commercial distribution, so the pressure is lower with regard to money. But we still to have people that develop it, and if we cannot pay people for that directly ( since we are not a company, even if maybe some companies will help us later ), we need to directly use contributions as a way to ensure our own sustainability. SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering contributions should be one of our goals. The second point is that we are here because we want community empowerment. So community also must be a strong point, especially since it will appeal to people that would allow the community to survive. So again, I think that empowerment should be another one of the goals. Now, we must ask ourself what is pushing people to contribute. There is various papers, like this one http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1113/1033 ( I let the analysis as a exercise for the moment ). And we need to find a way to combine this with others goals. While a traditional motivation in free software is to solve our own problem ( and that's also part of community empowerment ), this is not enough. We also need to think to more than us. And I think that's the complex part. We have 2 choices. Either we try to find a market where no one went, or a market where someone went, and try to be better. Or maybe both. -- Michael Scherer I agree. One way towards that goal is something I thought about since some years : lessen the divide between the GUI and CLI approach to computers, and OS's in particular. And thus between the 'user' and the 'geek' cultures (even if geeks are users too). In particular : that the GUI tools, for example the GUI draktools, provide a link (button) to a short explanation of how they do what they do. For example : what are the configuration files that are changed, and how. It could be seen as an extension of what is possible with an icon of the Panel : a right-click gets you to see what it does : the command is visible. When I was teaching an introduction to OS's, I used Mandr/ake/iva this way for people mainly familiar with Windows : the GUI functions are similar, even if different, but you can have a 'readable text' access to what really happens. At first I just told them which configuration files where concerned. Later I wrote some simple perl scripts using fileschanged ( http://fileschanged.sourceforge.net/) to let them find it themselves. But there were many limitations : for instance KDE configurations are not writen to file directly. Anyway it would be much more helpful if it is incorporated in the GUI tool itself (eventually as an option). It would encourage progressive exploration of the underlying workings. For anybody, but evidently exploratory behavior is more prevalent in younger people. Viewed with some optimism, if this approach is extended, it could lead to an experience similar to that of people who came to programming through contact with the early 8 bit microcomputers. (Many people lament the disapearence of that path of access). From the 'magic' point of view it would point to : Magea : the School of Magic -- Frederic
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 1 October 2010 12:52, Olivier Blin mag...@blino.org wrote: But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push incremental patchsets. It's easier for us developers but more difficult for translators that learned to use SVN (which was easy for them to swtich from CVS since the commands were similar)
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia-discuss] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 1 October 2010 12:38, Fabrice Facorat fabrice.faco...@gmail.com wrote: As we know, one of the Mandriva strenght are the Mandriva tools, however Mandriva tools have some issues : - they are written in perl. Sorry for perl dev, but I do still think that perl is harder to understand than C-like based syntax langages. That's your point of view. Every programmer will have its own POV. Thus this is a void argument. I think an higher language makes the entry barrier smaller for new programmers: - real algorithms are not in hidden/drown malloc/free spagetti - no memory bugs - no security issues b/c of poorly thinked/coded memory management What's more, with ugtk2 mygtk2 it's easy to express a complex GUI with a compact powerfull dialect which would need 10 times more code to do in C However we must admit that we are not going to rewrite all the Mandriva tools ;-) However better documentation ( PerlDoc tags ) could help a little. More doc would be better indeed. - Mandriva tools are not used by others distributions ( except PCLinuxOS, United Linux, and ... Mageia ) and so have few external contributions : They notably lack visibility. void argument: SUSE tools (yast, ...) are only used on SUSE, and the like I do think also that Mandriva will have to use its ressources in an efficient way. In the hand, some users will think about us as just as rh or debian, just packaged by themselves. We would just remove what makes us different, loosing users. 5. Junior tasks contributions. I noticed while visiting the LibreOffice website. They have junior task for people willing to contribute to the codebase, and most of theses junior tasks consist to improve code clarity, fix comments. I guess that the same thing could be done with Mandriva tools, notably adding perldoc tags/comments. Indeed. People can start by looking at existing bug reports and dig in code.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Fabrice Facorat wrote: This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes buggy. The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another GUI. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the GUI of the draktools. there's many things wrong. Just try Wndows 7 or Windows 2008 R2 tools http://www.win2008r2workstation.com/win2008r2/themes http://learn.iis.net/page.aspx/29/installing-iis-7-on-windows-server-2008-or-windows-server-2008-r2/ http://www.verboon.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/2010061520h01_291.png http://4sysops.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/windows-server-2008-r2-bpa.png If imrpoving them means to rewrite them from scratch or replace them with inferior tools from other distros, then that would be a big effort and/or step backwards just for the estetics. Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. again you're somewhat wrong iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about appearance ) and so are successful. -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le vendredi 1 octobre 2010 15:15:26, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about appearance ) and so are successful. I don't want an iPod or an iPhone.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 15:15, Fabrice Facorat fabrice.faco...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/10/1 Tux99 tux99-...@uridium.org: Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. again you're somewhat wrong iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about appearance ) and so are successful. Appearance is not their only reason to be successful at this time. Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it is the product. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder wrote: On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 01:14:36 Frank Griffin wrote: And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market Oh, come on. Trumpeting and advertising are essentially the same thing, at last in the context of this discussion. Um, that what I said: That the trumpeting IS advertising... Apologies for missing your meaning, but that phrase (there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising) can be read two different ways depending upon what you take that's to be modifying, i.e. trumpeting or what you're advocating. You're reading a hell of a lot more in there than I put. You seem to be talking at cross purposes. When I say inclusion I mean inclusion of another market that hasn't been catered to before. You're talking about packages, I'm talking about people. No, your original post talked about packages, to quote: So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. That is a clear recommendation to configure the distro for that target audience. Installing a lot of kid-friendly packages implies they have to be in the ISOs, which means that some other packages won't be. Now I'm convinced we're not talking about the same thing. You seem to think we are wanting to embark on some global advertising campaign And all I want is to decide what colour pallet our logo and webpage should use. By figuring out what a primary target market is we can then figure out the colours that will suit that demographic. That's it Simple! As I pointed out above, you advocated targeting the distribution *itself* to a niche market. I really have no interest in what colors the website uses; my replies were prompted because I have lots of interest in what the distro contains.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/1 Graham Lauder yori...@openoffice.org: OK then let me put it another way, you have taught IT for 15 years. Teaching IT was only the smallest part. I was involved in selling, purchasing, advising - the whole area, not just that small marketing section. And I talked to people all over the country, including international events, not just one special geografic area like NZ. Western Europe is a mix of many different areas, not just one. So pls do not try to talk to me like you know it all. LOL, in fact you can, at the end of the day it is a consumer item. It is a luxury good that only a small proportion of the worlds population can afford. In capitalist consumer model societies the market has little variation apart from local fashion. So for instance, like McDs, Ipods and Iphones are sold the same way world wide and that is matched with other global brands. Wrong, Here it depends on which item it is who makes the decisions in a family. Over here Mom may decide in general whethere a purchase is made or not but concerning computers and software the kids or Dad decide what is bought. The wife just wants to use it. As I pointed out above your experience is in fact limited, that's not a bad thing, it means you can target those variations that the global brands ignore in a local market. Same applies to you if you want to put it that way. Your sample is really small concerning German imigrants. Why do you think they emigrated from Germany? Because they were the typical Germans? Sounds like I saw a German wearing a hat, all Germans wear hats. thing. I know some people from NZ but I would never judge all NZ by those few. However our need is to be a global brand and so we target demographics that we know exist every where. So for instance: Parents everywhere, no matter what country or society, want the best for their Kids... simple really. Simple but not related. It's related to clothing, food, whatever, not to the technical stuff. While there is not much trouble with parents when clothing or schooling is related, we do have an ongoing discussion in Germany about the problem that parents do not care what their children do with computers (ego shooters, facebook, etc.) because the kids know more about computers. Anyhow, I made my points. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Samuel Verschelde sto...@laposte.net wrote: I don't want an iPod or an iPhone. I do but they're so expensive :P -- Juancho
