Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 09:33:44PM +0200, lebarhon wrote: Le 19/06/2011 10:28, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where it was decided to do so), Who the hell are you to dare say I am a liar ! Guys, guys... Can we tone it down a bit please? I am sure that we all are here to participate and help Mageia succeed as a distribution and community. To that end, we should always assume that all parties have a shared interest in this, even when one acts or talks differently from what you'd personally would have done. At the risk of stealing rda's job, have a look at http://hugs.mageia.org/ :-) For what it's worth, I did find it useful to read the forum comments on the topic on this list, even though I did not respond to any of it as it is one of the few issues I have no outspoken opinion on ;-) Let's keep it civil, and at the same time refrain from critisizing each other too much? Using the royal plural, we thank you all in advance :) Cheers, Remco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Le 18/06/2011 13:19, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? It was asked by the webteam, so you have to come yourselves to an agreement.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
2011/6/19 lebarhon lebar...@free.fr: Le 18/06/2011 13:19, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? It was asked by the webteam, so you have to come yourselves to an agreement. Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where it was decided to do so), people who read mailing lists are able to read forums as well - if they don't want to, that's their decision. But referring to the issue here I am pretty sure that nobody asked you to write in HTML nor to transfer the off-topic banter. I wonder why this has to be discussed, it's a matter of course. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Le 19/06/2011 10:28, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where it was decided to do so), Who the hell are you to dare say I am a liar ! https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=29t=570 https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=29t=570 1 - roadrunner asked if somebody could cross-post between the forum and the ML 2 - Anne posted in this thread and find nothing to say against it 3 - So, I volunteered for that 4 - maat agreed 5 - I suggested a method 6 - maat agreed again 7 - I began what I promised, and you posted behind without saying anything against it. It was not enough to be fully authorized people who read mailing lists are able to read forums as well - if they don't want to, that's their decision. They are able to, but they won't because our team members still sleep during nights. These are Anne's own words. But referring to the issue here I am pretty sure that nobody asked you to write in HTML nor to transfer the off-topic banter. Neither that nor the opposite. I never said I will re-write all the text nor I will read and sort the posts. Nobody prevented me to do that way. I stopped some of the off-topic banger, not each one. Well, I made a mistake, I was told by misc, it's ok and I don't need a parrot repeating for a second layer. I subscribed to this third Mageia ML at this purpose only and didn't read the other posts, so I am going to unsubscribe, this one at least.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *isadora https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=90* » Jun 17th, '11, 20:04 Must admit magnus is right about the difference between technical and regular-users. Today i started adding the cauldron-repositories, and did a first update to my test-Mageia. The first bunch of packages (about 40) went without a hassle through MCC. But then MCC stopped functioning, and i had to change to konsole to get in the other 600. Due to a sloppy internet-connection, i had to restart the updating-process twice, and in the end i was missing four packages. I managed to install them all in the end, but you have to be familiar with the command-line.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by magnus Jun 17th, '11, 20:55 isadora wrote:Today i started adding the cauldron-repositories, and did a first update to my test-Mageia. Today I have done the same job. about 20 minutes - good internet connection and ssd (In the past ELP had a song "Lucky man") one package has a missing signature isadora wrote:... but you have to be familiar with the command-line. I think for Cauldron is the command-line with "urpmi --auto-update" the better way for updates
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by wobo Jun 18th, '11, 00:54 magnus wrote:(In the past ELP had a song "Lucky man") Most people forget that Lucky Man became worm fodder at the end of the song. But you can always enter the Zeppelin and take the Stairway to Heaven for spiritual healing... (...Clementine is now playing ELP's 4-Bridges-Suite)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *keksbaecker https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=698* » Jun 18th, '11, 11:07 I am also just a simple end user and for me it is more important to have a stable and running System than having the the latest Desktop Environment installed. Personally I think a new release every nine months would be great but I could also imagine a release every year if it is possible to install a newer (even it is not the newest) version of e.g. LibreOffice or Pidgin using the official Mageia repositories instead of downloading it from their Homepage and maybe have to compile myself (I tried once and failed)..
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask for this gateway, but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't read the forums. Samuel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde: Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask for this gateway, but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't read the forums. Samuel i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying this on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say something they should talk here... but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 13:42 +0200, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde: Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask for this gateway, but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't read the forums. Samuel i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying this on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say something they should talk here... but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could. What I said was gather feedback for their own group, in the first mail of this thread. I guess I was not explicit enough, what would be useful is a summary. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 15:59:33 schreef Michael Scherer: Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 13:42 +0200, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde: Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit : Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit : 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ? 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I helped install them among others ), can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask for this gateway, but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't read the forums. Samuel i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying this on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say something they should talk here... but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could. What I said was gather feedback for their own group, in the first mail of this thread. I guess I was not explicit enough, what would be useful is a summary. ah yes, that would be easier.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *Trio3b https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=395* » Jun 17th, '11, 17:55 Must preface this reply by saying I am not a coder, developer, packager. Just an end user. Long time MDV user (ver. 10.0). I have tried almost every distro out there for fun but on my main desktop I use MDV 2008.1KDE3.5.x and have stuck with it b/c it is used for business. I have been tinkering with PCLOS for the past two years. It is very easy to succumb to the grass is greener mindset and I too have fallen into that trap with PCLOS. It really is a fine distro (originally and to some extent still based on MDV) but have come to the conclusion that for fun, upgrading/Updating is fine, but for day to day business use it is not really an option. I understand that Mageia has little or no control over certain elements of the IT landscape.Witness KDE fiasco with distro forums full of problems, breaks, memory leaks, Plasma configuration problems. I have experienced that with PCLOS being a rolling distro so I have NOT migrated to it for business as of yet. I believe that a great deal of credibility can be given to opensource if it can be seen to be stable and useable for long periods of time in the business community. I haven't a clue about the technical requirements in determining a release schedule but can speak from a users standpoint and that is many small businesses such as myself CAN NOT employ technology people. I really enjoy installing and configuring linux OS on various hardware but I have to be realistic and stand firm in the belief that if one of my office crew is faced with a blank screen (as has happened with recent PCLOS2011.6 test release), then the fun of fixing it must take a back seat to getting on with work. It is mentioned that several releases can be maintained at the same time. Can't a long term stable release be made to sync up with new advances every couple years, with the long term user UNDERSTANDING that a major reinstall will be necessary at the end of that 2-3 yr . THAT IS INFINITELY preferable to an upgrade that breaks something. Speaking of planning, when you KNOW you have to upgrade you will have your work flow and backups planned. An upgrade that breaks a system disrupts workflow and even if you have data backed up it destroys confidence in the ability of the software to support workflow. Workflow disruption is an enemy to running a business and constant KDE4 upgrades have kept me from leaving KDE3.5.x Hope this helps some devs
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by magnus Jun 17th, '11, 19:26 I think the whole discussion is dominated by "technical" users. I, as a simple user, need a stable, secure system where I can use my applications. Gnome 2, 3, 4 ??? KDE 4.6, 4. 7, 5.0 ??? What does it matter. At the office a must use a system called xp, but for our 10.000 girls and boys it runs stable. That's it. I admit, this is a very simple view. But for me and a lot of users a very important criterion. I don`t believe this can provide a "rolling release" (in the moment). So I prefer a a reasonable release cycle with enough time for the development and the qa. For example, a new release every nine months brings me the new developments, not just the latest. But I can also update my system with a clear conscience and without great risks. The technicans can play with cauldron and the latest developments
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *pmithrandir https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=359* » Jun 13th, '11, 20:21 On my side, I think mageia should do a mix of others idea. I would say : - A release every year. - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...) - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software. Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years. So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode : - The LTS - The common release - The cauldron. With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for public at a time, and just one LTS. If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who need tham to develop new stuff would be happy. BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *pmithrandir https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=359* » Jun 13th, '11, 20:21 On my side, I think mageia should do a mix of others idea. I would say : - A release every year. - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...) - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software. Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years. So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode : - The LTS - The common release - The cauldron. With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for public at a time, and just one LTS. If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who need tham to develop new stuff would be happy. BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions. by *claire https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=448* » Jun 16th, '11, 14:27 pmithrandir wrote:On my side, I think mageia should do a mix of others idea. I would say : - A release every year. - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...) - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software. Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years. So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode : - The LTS - The common release - The cauldron. I completely agree with this. There is no real need to rush releases as long as new versions are easily available. I know backports repo is available but its not very user friendly. As an example, the newer versions of Openshot video editor have a very nice feature of being able to do animated titles. To be able to use them you need Blender 2.5. Whilst Mageia includes Openshot 1.3.1 (which errors with missing plugins btw) which at time of writing is current it still has Blender 2.49b. It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it. LTS releases in Ubuntu IMHO are a great idea and one which would add value to mageia as a potential server/business OS where stability over time is crucial. I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Le 16/06/2011 19:57, lebarhon a écrit : by *pmithrandir https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=359* » Jun 13th, '11, 20:21 On my side, I think mageia should do a mix of others idea. I would say : - A release every year. - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...) - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software. Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years. So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode : - The LTS - The common release - The cauldron. With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for public at a time, and just one LTS. If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who need tham to develop new stuff would be happy. BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions. by *claire https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=448* » Jun 16th, '11, 14:27 pmithrandir wrote:On my side, I think mageia should do a mix of others idea. I would say : - A release every year. - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, libreoffice...) - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if there is some instant success for a new software. Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 4 years. So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode : - The LTS - The common release - The cauldron. I completely agree with this. There is no real need to rush releases as long as new versions are easily available. I know backports repo is available but its not very user friendly. As an example, the newer versions of Openshot video editor have a very nice feature of being able to do animated titles. To be able to use them you need Blender 2.5. Whilst Mageia includes Openshot 1.3.1 (which errors with missing plugins btw) which at time of writing is current it still has Blender 2.49b. It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it. LTS releases in Ubuntu IMHO are a great idea and one which would add value to mageia as a potential server/business OS where stability over time is crucial. I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around. by *roadrunner https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=468* » Jun 16th, '11, 15:35 claire wrote: pmithrandir wrote:I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around. Speaking as a typical Joe Bloggs, all I'm interested in is keeping my applications up to date with the occasional distribution upgrade. I'm not interested in regular release cycles because I feel that this leads to rush-jobs, which in turn, leads to bugs galore. I'm more interested in a solid reliable distribution upgrade on the it'll be ready when it's ready basis. .\\artin - Mageia 1 32-bit - KDE SC 4.6.3 - - AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ CPU - - 4Gb RAM - nVidia 8500GT GPU -
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
2011/6/16 lebarhon lebar...@free.fr It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it. Look to Mageia App DB (in testing) There is growing a good interface. http://88.191.121.20/madb/mageia/index.php/rpm/list/distrelease/2/application/0/arch/2/source/0/listtype/updates_testing/page/1 The link shows the update soon coming.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by dave Jun 14th, '11, 22:32 One release every year with the related updated (don't wait one year for have ad updated software) is better. The best could be an half-rolling like chakra but this option isn't in the proposals
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *corbintech https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=646* » Jun 13th, '11, 22:12 I quit the ML because I was not doing it right (never used a list like that before). So if I may, I will post here what somebody responded to me and write my response here. complete rolling release would put a QA strain on each of the levels. think about it, it's not only the current package being updated, but also the combinations with other packages. (AND also all the long time supported versions) This would mean that for each package being release, it'll have to work with the current set of other packages, but also with the packages you'll be doing next. if you have this constant level of QA, you need alot of resources (which we don't have in QA), and as an extra result, you'll not have the same level of QA you could have, when you're doing a release. it's much easier (as devs) to just choose a subset of packages, and test those out. if you have X QA-devs, and you have 1 subset of versions of packages, you can test alot more than if you have several versions of several packages that need to work all with each other in almost any combinations... not to mention that you need an extra step with QA to put a group of packages from one level to the next... sorry, but with our current resources, i vote no. i want current resources to be used much more efficiently than with a rolling release. Why do we keep acting like there is no other way to pool resources? I have never helped develop in any way, teach me something and I'll lend a hand... Others may do the same.. ASK! QA comes from testing... Test... Test... And test more... To make sure what you have works and works well. Let's change up my idea a bit and satisfy everyone... Let's compromise... How about Cooker (or whatever you call) rolls to rolling (can be very stable???!!!) with release cycle releases based on a snapshot of either of the rolling models and supported for X amount of time? This could make those whom want a rolling release model happy and those whom want a release cycle. Would this be hard? I don't really think so as development is already based on a rolling model (cooker or whatever), all that will have to be done is packages roll down the line. I seen in the start of all these talks you wanted to support 3 structures of systems... Here they are! What about this? Get the community involved!
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
by *roadrunner https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=468* » Jun 13th, '11, 22:24 pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions. Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100% .\\artin
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
'Twas brillig, and lebarhon at 14/06/11 11:42 did gyre and gimble: by *roadrunner https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=468* » Jun 13th, '11, 22:24 pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions. Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100% This email is not about release cycles and peoples opinions of the options presented for discussion. While it's maybe a valid feeling that may require it's own discussion (I've already explained why I believe the exact opposite and that the use of forums for projects would seriously limit my ability to participate), it's not part of this discussion per se. Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
I agree. Mailing lists are messy and hard to follow. And sometimes the only response you get is about how you sent the message wrong. I bet more people would use the forums. Only a couple people so far are hooked on mailing lists. Im seeing more and more comments coming in about this. forums would at least would allow people to follow one version of the discussion instead of everyone posting a copy with their reply. And its easier to review past messages without sorting through all your emails that practically spam your box. People can subscribe to the topics they actually want, and browse the messages at their leisure. mailing list might work best for a couple people but is it worth inconveniencing the rest of the word because you are a die hard mailing list user? On Jun 14, 2011 6:42 AM, lebarhon lebar...@free.fr wrote: by *roadrunner https://forums.mageia.org/en/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofileu=468* » Jun 13th, '11, 22:24 pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe another forum. It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions. Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100% .\\artin
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On 06/14/2011 09:07 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi vs emacs discussions of way back when. +1 Not to mention that if you don't like getting emails, you can always simply use the archives to find what interests you.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Lee Forest said on Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 08:52:50AM -0400: Only a couple people so far are hooked on mailing lists. Yes, all the ones who really work on making the distro ! And I can't take that opportunity to thank them :-) My self +1 for ML, -1 for forums. Bruno. -- Open Source Linux Profession Lead EMEA / http://opensource.hp.com HP/Intel/Red Hat Open Source Solutions Initiative / http://www.hpintelco.net http://www.HyPer-Linux.org http://mondorescue.org http://project-builder.org La musique ancienne? http://www.musique-ancienne.org http://www.medieval.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a conversation is repeated throughout its life time in a mailing list. Thats alot of redundant data using up server traffic. In a forum everything is more central. A lot less redundancy. and you can still get topic replies. What about being able to reply to the notification email to reply to the thread? That would be a start on a compromise. Nice feature for a modern forum/mailing system. Maybe also be able to subscribe to forum catagories. This would allow those who wish for emails to still use mail. On Jun 14, 2011 9:16 AM, Frank Griffin f...@roadrunner.com wrote: On 06/14/2011 09:07 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi vs emacs discussions of way back when. +1 Not to mention that if you don't like getting emails, you can always simply use the archives to find what interests you.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On 06/14/2011 09:38 AM, Lee Forest wrote: And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a conversation is repeated throughout its life time in a mailing list. Thats alot of redundant data using up server traffic. That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and quoting the entire message to which they're replying, which is a breach of netiquette. As is top-posting :-)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 15:38, Lee Forest lee...@gmail.com wrote: And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your system do redundant tasks. As golden as the need to not to have redundancy: it depends. Redundancy can be very, very appreciated. But not always in a discussion (be it with mail or web-based forum) where appropriately quoting is very, very appreciated too. :-) What about being able to [...] Yes, that could be nice, only, Mageia is not about building first an improved mail/forum gateway, but about building first an improved operating system. You can't blame people for focusing on this and doing it with tools they are productive with already. Migrating everyone to forums is, here, not acceptable. Dismissing others from each side as well. Migrating everyone to ml was not even considered (or we wouldn't have planned to have forums, or we would have let them to local groups only). That this question gets discussed on and on is a (good) sign that people are motivated to participate. But are you motivated enough to cross the bridge, to change your habits and to meet the people where they gather to build this thing, and to instill improvements? The bridge is wide open and there's so much to built it further. Only, it's not necessarily what you expect it to be, at first. There have been several suggestions as to build a forum/mail gateway, only without the means to actually implement it within our infrastructure. For what is existing, tux99 used to provide a 3rd place showcase gateway in the past but I am not sure what its future status will be; or you have http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mageia.devel or http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mageia.devel or we could consider another gateway if it's worth it (Google groups? other?) and if there's someone to lend a hand to... no, to join sysadmin team for that (and other things). Speaking of focus, this thread is about the release cycle. Now you are welcome to open a bug http://bugs.mageia.org/ in the Websites, forums.mageia.org section I guess; if you think it's worth it to dig/document this ml/forum thing further (and even better, if you have a better workable solution at hand). But please let this thread on topic. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On 06/14/2011 10:03 AM, Frank Griffin wrote: On 06/14/2011 09:38 AM, Lee Forest wrote: And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a conversation is repeated throughout its life time in a mailing list. Thats alot of redundant data using up server traffic. That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and quoting the entire message to which they're replying, which is a breach of netiquette. As is top-posting :-) Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new to mailing lists.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On 06/14/2011 10:22 AM, Lee Forest wrote: On 06/14/2011 10:03 AM, Frank Griffin wrote: That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and quoting the entire message to which they're replying, which is a breach of netiquette. As is top-posting :-) Android mail does that by default. So does Thunderbird. That's no reason to not prune the quote. But that just proves my other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. Well, aside from the fact that nobody here owes you a reply, and that you're lucky to get one at all if you abuse the rules of the ML, forums use considerably more system resource than text-based MLs as regards footprint of the servers and clients and bandwidth. Unnecessarily-quoted text is only a resource problem to archiving services, and if you're not one you don't get to complain. You don't have to receive emails to be registered on most MLs. You can register, which allows you to post to the ML, and opt to receive no mail from the list, then use the archives to read what you want. Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new to mailing lists. Nobody here is counting on anything. People who don't bother to follow netiquette will generally just be ignored after the first few violations, which doesn't bother the rest of us a bit.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
'Twas brillig, and Lee Forest at 14/06/11 13:52 did gyre and gimble: mailing list might work best for a couple people but is it worth inconveniencing the rest of the word because you are a die hard mailing list user I've posted the arguments before and I'll do it again, despite this thread going dangerously off topic. I find the use of forums to be a great drawback to project engagement as an upstream developer. I have to read communities from several updateam projects and I get as annoyed about forums as I do about people posting in HTML on mailing lists. Forums are disjoint and individually styled. When you are jumping from one project to another to get through your daily grind of information, it is exceptionally annoying to have to adjust your eyes and the way you operate to cope with the styles, features, login system etc. of each individual forums (forii, forum?). I want the information from these 30 or so projects I'm involved in to be available to me in one place, not have a series of inconvenient bookmarks and a procedure of checking one, then the next then the one after that until I've done the rounds (and of course repeating that procedure throughout the day if I want to see any new topics!). It's much less time consuming to have a single UI and central store of information in which I can look. Perhaps if all the forums could be aggregated into one handy feed per project and stripped of all their styling I could agree, but then that would just be reinventing mailing lists! It's all too easy to get lured by the guise of a forum-based system when you only follow a couple of projects, but please consider those of us who have several projects to follow. As for the server traffic argument, this is what NNTP is for and GMane does an excellent service of collecting and aggregating mailing list from most open source projects. When you look at the size of their feeds you'll realise just how many projects are run on mailing lists. Just like IRC, the fresh faced and full of wonder souls (not to mention many other types of souls too, I'm just picking on one demographic that suggests it more often than others!) often comment about how some more modern system is more appropriate for interaction. I don't dispute the lower barrier of entry for forums, and they can be a good way to engage with a less technical audience, but I will never be able to get involved in them (except when people specifically ask me to comment on topics) as it's just far too much of an intrusion in my daily grind. Build a nice forum to mail gateway (and vice versa) and it would likely please everyone. Technology can solve this! I won't comment again on this topic (at least on this thread!). Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest: [...] Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new to mailing lists. I never visit any of the forums. the problem with forums is: - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and whatnot: this means emphasis on appearance and not on content. - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML and it's one of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like wobo said. this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying, there are only a few rules. i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only normal to make an effort for it. if you can't make the effort, then perhaps it's not as high priority to yourself as you would like to believe. and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: modernizing ? makes me feel like an old dinosaur...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:57:03 +0200 Maarten Vanraes maarten.vanr...@gmail.com wrote: Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest: [...] Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new to mailing lists. I never visit any of the forums. the problem with forums is: - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and whatnot: this means emphasis on appearance and not on content. - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML and it's one of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like wobo said. this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying, there are only a few rules. i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only normal to make an effort for it. if you can't make the effort, then perhaps it's not as high priority to yourself as you would like to believe. and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: modernizing ? makes me feel like an old dinosaur... Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added graphics. -- Margot ~~ **Otford Ducks Computers** We teach, you learn... ...and, if you don't do your homework, we set the cat on you! ~~
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 22:35:21 schreef Margot: On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:57:03 +0200 Maarten Vanraes maarten.vanr...@gmail.com wrote: Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest: [...] Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new to mailing lists. I never visit any of the forums. the problem with forums is: - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and whatnot: this means emphasis on appearance and not on content. - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML and it's one of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like wobo said. this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying, there are only a few rules. i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only normal to make an effort for it. if you can't make the effort, then perhaps it's not as high priority to yourself as you would like to believe. and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: modernizing ? makes me feel like an old dinosaur... Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added graphics. lol +1
Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum
2011/6/14 Margot mar...@otfordduckscomputers.co.uk: Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added graphics. You put the whole discussion into the perspective it deserves! Thx for making my day! -- wobo
