Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Brad Knowles]

At 4:08 PM +0100 2005-06-14, Andy Heath wrote:

>  If the mailman developer community adopts the FHS for
>  mailman then that's a different story entirely and
>  I would follow without complaint.

SELinux and the FHS are both specific to a particular OS -- 
Linux.  We have to support dozens of different OSes.  It would be 
just as silly to apply a standard appropriate for Linux to an 
operating system like Xenix, as it would be to do the reverse.

We have no choice but to create our own standards that are 
applicable across all the platforms we support.  Of course, we will 
do what we can to make these standards something that can be changed 
at installation time, if someone needs to follow a different set of 
standards for their particular site/platform.


Of course, if someone else is going to take those features and 
create their own standards, or follow alternative standards, and then 
produce binary installations which will be provided to their 
customers, then they are also responsible for supporting those 
modified versions of the package for their customers.

RedHat is doing a good job in this area.  Others cannot say the same.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

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 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

>>OFF-TOPIC below:
>>
>>Standards compliance (fedora) is one thing (I work in standards)
>>but when everyone already has a fine standard (put it in the
>>mailman user directory) and the community has no plans
>>to change that then i find it very silly to just throw
>>that away
> 
> 
> The directory change was dictated by the need to integrate with the
> SELinux security policy. This is a positive technology advancement.
> 
> Adhering to the FHS (Filesystem Hierarchy Standard) is a stated goal and
> appreciated by many.
> 
> Most people prefer distributions that integrate packages into a coherent
> system that follow established rules.
> 
> Individual package defaults are not a standard.

I note your email address John (redhat.com) and
observe your defensiveness on this.

I differ on this (and I do work in the standards world).

YMMV - there is no right answer and I qualified all the
things above as opinions and tried not to make
personally projective statements of opinion such
as "Most people prefer ...".  I completely appreciate the
reasons for the FHS but not the way it is applied
to mailman in the community.  One reason for example is that it
means I have to learn TWO standards - the mailman
way and the Fedora way and constantly be mentally
mapping between them - otherwise if I want the latest
update I am dependent on redhat to have packaged it
(which is as bad as Ms.)  The *sensible* way to
implement standards with a community is to get
them on board not redesign their work.

If the mailman developer community adopts the FHS for
mailman then that's a different story entirely and
I would follow without complaint.

These are my views, not those of any company
and I'm not claiming any blanket truths except
that standards are only as useful as their
adoption by communities.

The ls -lR of /home/mailman would still be
useful

andy
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[John Dennis]

On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 09:50 +0100, Andy Heath wrote:
> If someone could do an ls -R or ls -lR (if there are links)
> of a 2.1.5 mailman directory  and post it it would help figure
> out where fedora puts all the pieces (I'll build a list of
> links from it so it looks like a normal mailman directory and
> I can work with it more easily).

There are two much easier ways to get this information:

1) read the documentation (/usr/share/doc/mailman-*/INSTALL.REDHAT)

2) rpm -ql mailman (-ql prints a package file list)

> OFF-TOPIC below:
> 
> Standards compliance (fedora) is one thing (I work in standards)
> but when everyone already has a fine standard (put it in the
> mailman user directory) and the community has no plans
> to change that then i find it very silly to just throw
> that away

The directory change was dictated by the need to integrate with the
SELinux security policy. This is a positive technology advancement.

Adhering to the FHS (Filesystem Hierarchy Standard) is a stated goal and
appreciated by many.

Most people prefer distributions that integrate packages into a coherent
system that follow established rules.

Individual package defaults are not a standard.

-- 
John Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Andy Heath wrote:
> 
>>so how does "subject:.*[SPAM}.*" (admitredly meaning s or p etc) trigger 
>>the behaviour but "subject.*spam" not trigger it ?
> 
> 
> Because on the second and subsequent passes through it is looking at
> the subject of the notice to the owner which contains 's', 'p', 'a'
> and 'm' but not 'spam'. I.e. it is looking at
> 
> Subject: %(listname)s post from %(sender)s requires approval
> 
> with the appropriate substitutions for %(listname)s and %(sender)s.

ok I got it now.  And in fact redefining OWNER_PIPELINE would
not be the best approach - knowing that the RE is applied
to both messages and getting it right is the way to go.
( so I want subject.*\[SPAM\].* ).

I did log a feature request for the other issue.

Thanks for all your help Mark.

If someone could do an ls -R or ls -lR (if there are links)
of a 2.1.5 mailman directory  and post it it would help figure
out where fedora puts all the pieces (I'll build a list of
links from it so it looks like a normal mailman directory and
I can work with it more easily).

OFF-TOPIC below:

Standards compliance (fedora) is one thing (I work in standards)
but when everyone already has a fine standard (put it in the
mailman user directory) and the community has no plans
to change that then i find it very silly to just throw
that away (when people in a community don't have a standard
practice and need pulling together then imposing one is good
but the mailman community already have a very good de facto
standard that its barmy to change without getting the
community on board).  I'd prefer to stick with normal
mailman practice.   In fact I considered not using
the fedora package and building mailman by hand as I used
to do.

I approve of standards for where to put things but communities
have to be brought along, standards can't be dictated.

Next machine I build won't be fedora - not knowing
where things are feels like working with MS.

andy
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Andy Heath wrote:
>
>so how does "subject:.*[SPAM}.*" (admitredly meaning s or p etc) trigger 
>the behaviour but "subject.*spam" not trigger it ?

Because on the second and subsequent passes through it is looking at
the subject of the notice to the owner which contains 's', 'p', 'a'
and 'm' but not 'spam'. I.e. it is looking at

Subject: %(listname)s post from %(sender)s requires approval

with the appropriate substitutions for %(listname)s and %(sender)s.


>Also - where is this code normally ? I presume SpamDetect just
>calls the rules defined in the spam section, nothing
>cleverer.

The handler Mailman/Handlers/SpamDetect.py just implements
header_filter_rules and if there is a match and the action is Hold, it
calls the hold_for_approval() method in Mailman/Handlers/Hold.py to
actually hold the message and send the notice.


>And if I do decide to separate owners and
>moderators I may need to do the same trick for moderators -
>where is that code ? (sorry but with directories all over
>the place its horrible finding and grepping.) - presume
>there's a MODERATOR_PIPELINE or similar.


No. There's little if any difference between an owner and a moderator
except for which password(s) they know. There is no MODERATOR_PIPELINE
because there is no listname-moderator address. There is an ability
internally in mailman to send to owners, not including moderators, but
I think this is used only by bounce processing.

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Andy Heath wrote:

>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Andy Heath wrote:
>> 
>>>they don't show as fails at all.  What appears to happen is
>>>mailman keeps trying to send the mail and succeeding
>>>but it keeps doing it again and again.  Meanwhile no
>>>mail leaves, it just sits in the spool dir.
>> 
>> 
>> What spool directory? The MTA's?
>
>No.  Fedora has its own ideas about where the components
>of mailman should live and its broken up all over and the
>code a tiny bit modified to facilitate that - some
>in /usr/lib, some in /var/lib, some in /var/spool, some
>in /etc.  Its a pain to work with.
>
>In /var/spool there is a mailman directory with these sub directories.
>I presumed they were normally in the /home/mailman
>
>archive  bounces  commands  in  news  out  retry  shunt  virgin
>
>They are not the usual sendmail queues, its before that
>stage.

Right. I understand that Red Hat is trying to be more standards
compliant in where they put things; thus the separation of things into
/var/lib/, /usr/lib/, /usr/spool/, but I would expect those mailman
queue directories to be in /var/spool/mailman/qfiles/ and I would tend
to refer to the directory as qfiles, not spool; thus, my confusion.


>> 
>>>The data directory fills up with .pck files and directories in
>>>the spool dir fill up with mail files.  I was testing with
>>>only one member, one administrator and one or two mails
>>>so the looping was obvious.  Some boundary condition is
>>>failing in the code.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What is happening is the message is detected as spam and a notise is
>> sent to the listname-owner address with subject "%(listname)s post
>> from %(sender)s requires approval" with the appropriate substitutions
>> for %(listname)s and %(sender)s.
>> 
>> Since this subject matches .*[spam].*, the message to the owner is
>> identified as spam and the whole thing goes again.
>
>Not sure I understand you.  It doesn't get as far as the usual
>sendmail queues.  How does the subject get parsed twice ?


If I am correct here, what is happening is the 'approval' notice is
placed in the virgin queue with a destination of [EMAIL PROTECTED] It
is then actually sent out and delivered right back to Mailman as a
message for "owner listname". This is how owner notification works in
general. In your case, when it comes back in to the owner address it
is processed through the pipeline of handlers defined in
OWNER_PIPELINE which normally contains SpamDetect as the first
handler. Thus, because of the overly generous regexp, the notice is
held as spam and the process repeats.

If you look in Mailman's 'smtp' log or the sendmail logs, I think
you'll see that there is an outgoing message per loop.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

Mark,

>> Since this subject matches .*[spam].*, the message to the owner is
>> identified as spam and the whole thing goes again.

 > Not sure I understand you.  It doesn't get as far as the usual
 > sendmail queues.  How does the subject get parsed twice ?

> 
> The solution is to not use regexps which will match the subject of the
> owner notification or, since this is not completely under your
> control, remove 'SpamDetect' from OWNER_PIPELINE, i.e. put
> 
> # This is the pipeline which messages sent to the -owner address go
> through
> OWNER_PIPELINE = [
> #   'SpamDetect',
> 'Replybot',
> 'OwnerRecips',
> 'ToOutgoing',
> ]
> 
> im mm_cfg.py.

so how does "subject:.*[SPAM}.*" (admitredly meaning s or p etc) trigger 
the behaviour but "subject.*spam" not trigger it ?

Also - where is this code normally ? I presume SpamDetect just
calls the rules defined in the spam section, nothing
cleverer.  And if I do decide to separate owners and
moderators I may need to do the same trick for moderators -
where is that code ? (sorry but with directories all over
the place its horrible finding and grepping.) - presume
there's a MODERATOR_PIPELINE or similar.

andy
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Andy Heath wrote:
> 
>>they don't show as fails at all.  What appears to happen is
>>mailman keeps trying to send the mail and succeeding
>>but it keeps doing it again and again.  Meanwhile no
>>mail leaves, it just sits in the spool dir.
> 
> 
> What spool directory? The MTA's?

No.  Fedora has its own ideas about where the components
of mailman should live and its broken up all over and the
code a tiny bit modified to facilitate that - some
in /usr/lib, some in /var/lib, some in /var/spool, some
in /etc.  Its a pain to work with.

In /var/spool there is a mailman directory with these sub directories.
I presumed they were normally in the /home/mailman

archive  bounces  commands  in  news  out  retry  shunt  virgin

They are not the usual sendmail queues, its before that
stage.

> 
>>The data directory fills up with .pck files and directories in
>>the spool dir fill up with mail files.  I was testing with
>>only one member, one administrator and one or two mails
>>so the looping was obvious.  Some boundary condition is
>>failing in the code.
> 
> 
> 
> What is happening is the message is detected as spam and a notise is
> sent to the listname-owner address with subject "%(listname)s post
> from %(sender)s requires approval" with the appropriate substitutions
> for %(listname)s and %(sender)s.
> 
> Since this subject matches .*[spam].*, the message to the owner is
> identified as spam and the whole thing goes again.

Not sure I understand you.  It doesn't get as far as the usual
sendmail queues.  How does the subject get parsed twice ?

> 
> The solution is to not use regexps which will match the subject of the
> owner notification or, since this is not completely under your
> control, remove 'SpamDetect' from OWNER_PIPELINE, i.e. put
> 
> # This is the pipeline which messages sent to the -owner address go
> through
> OWNER_PIPELINE = [
> #   'SpamDetect',
> 'Replybot',
> 'OwnerRecips',
> 'ToOutgoing',
> ]
> 
> im mm_cfg.py.
> 
> 
> As far as not including the message body in the notice because of its
> getting caught in external to Mailman spam filters is concerned, short
> of hacking the code or not sending the immediate notifications,
> there's not much you can do. You can submit an RFE at
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=350103

Thanks I will.  The madness is that having recieved spam
the last sensible thing to do is post it out again :-).

Cheers

andy
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 
> 


-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Andy Heath wrote:
>
>they don't show as fails at all.  What appears to happen is
>mailman keeps trying to send the mail and succeeding
>but it keeps doing it again and again.  Meanwhile no
>mail leaves, it just sits in the spool dir.

What spool directory? The MTA's?


>The data directory fills up with .pck files and directories in
>the spool dir fill up with mail files.  I was testing with
>only one member, one administrator and one or two mails
>so the looping was obvious.  Some boundary condition is
>failing in the code.


What is happening is the message is detected as spam and a notise is
sent to the listname-owner address with subject "%(listname)s post
from %(sender)s requires approval" with the appropriate substitutions
for %(listname)s and %(sender)s.

Since this subject matches .*[spam].*, the message to the owner is
identified as spam and the whole thing goes again.

The solution is to not use regexps which will match the subject of the
owner notification or, since this is not completely under your
control, remove 'SpamDetect' from OWNER_PIPELINE, i.e. put

# This is the pipeline which messages sent to the -owner address go
through
OWNER_PIPELINE = [
#   'SpamDetect',
'Replybot',
'OwnerRecips',
'ToOutgoing',
]

im mm_cfg.py.


As far as not including the message body in the notice because of its
getting caught in external to Mailman spam filters is concerned, short
of hacking the code or not sending the immediate notifications,
there's not much you can do. You can submit an RFE at
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=103&atid=350103

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

>>subject:.*[SPAM].*
> 
> 
> The upper/lower case is immaterial as thes matches ale all
> 'ignorecase', but you don't want the above regexp in any case since
> [SPAM] is a character set so the regexp matches anything with an 's',
> 'p', 'a' or 'm' in the subject.
> 
> I don't know what would cause the looping, but you want at least
> 
> subject:.*\[spam\].*

silly me, I should (and do) know that.  But still it shouldn't loop
as you say (its a legal RE without the escaping).

> 
> as the regexp.
> 
> What are the reasons (error log, smtp-failure log ?) for the failure in
> the notification 'loop'?

they don't show as fails at all.  What appears to happen is
mailman keeps trying to send the mail and succeeding
but it keeps doing it again and again.  Meanwhile no
mail leaves, it just sits in the spool dir.
The data directory fills up with .pck files and directories in
the spool dir fill up with mail files.  I was testing with
only one member, one administrator and one or two mails
so the looping was obvious.  Some boundary condition is
failing in the code.

I decided I would inform the other admins about
this flakeyness and work around it but would it be useful
if I set up the situation again and
posted the log file contents ? Having been happy with
mailman for years this one surprised me (you come
to depend on its reliability).

The other problem concerns me more because I can't find
a good way around it that triggers action from moderators.

bogey


> 
> --
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> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Andy Heath wrote:
>
>1. regex matching with some regex'es
>causes mailman to loop trying to send
>mail to the list-owner and failing.
>
>e.g.
>this seems ok
>
>subject:.*spam
>
>but this one causes looping
>
>subject:.*[SPAM].*

The upper/lower case is immaterial as thes matches ale all
'ignorecase', but you don't want the above regexp in any case since
[SPAM] is a character set so the regexp matches anything with an 's',
'p', 'a' or 'm' in the subject.

I don't know what would cause the looping, but you want at least

subject:.*\[spam\].*

as the regexp.

What are the reasons (error log, smtp-failure log ?) for the failure in
the notification 'loop'?

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem

[Andy Heath]

Using 2.1.5 on fedora cors 3.  Run an old
mailman for years but just setting this
one up afresh.

Two probs - some regexes and preventing
spams going to moderators while holding
them back:

1. regex matching with some regex'es
causes mailman to loop trying to send
mail to the list-owner and failing.

e.g.
this seems ok

subject:.*spam

but this one causes looping

subject:.*[SPAM].*

Since I give control of these regex'es to
my other admins this is a problem.
Sounds like a python problem - is there
some way I can fix it, such as using some
specific python version and doing so without a
complete rebuild (I find fedora hard work
building for, its approaches are so
different)?

2. Privacy/Spam filters.

The snag I have is this ...
If I hold spam back the mail that goes to
admins/moderators to request their action
contains a copy of the spam email.
With one address I use for moderation I never
see this mail as its filtered out at the
gate without my control and at another it
naturally gets classified as spam itself
and so goes in the spam box (this is
a mozilla client - I can mark these
as non-spam but doing so is not really
desirable because of their content
  - doing so may encourage missed positives).

So there is needed an option to NOT send
a copy of the body of the mail, just a
call to action instead I think.
Of course I could discard spam but this
is a new installation and I want to see
some reliability in classification first
(the other parts are all new too).

andy
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