Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
JB... It makes 10,000% more sense than doing what you just did (untrimmed bottom posting). Your response only serves to provide massive ammunition for those arguing *against* bottom (inline/interleaved) posting. Charles On 4/9/2015 10:49 AM, JB je...@yahoo.com.dmarc.invalid wrote: On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com I do not like top posting. With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on. Makes no sense at all. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/tanstaafl%40libertytrek.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, 4/9/15, Mike Starr m...@writestarr.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 11:07 AM Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer - Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/9/2015 9:49 AM, JB wrote: On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com I do not like top posting. With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on. Makes no sense at all. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com Why? I followd the discussion perfectly until you to posted and broke the logic. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 08:56:21 -0700 Carl Zwanzig c...@tuunq.com wrote: Hello Carl, (As I've opined before, IME many people consider what we might call inline posting to be bottom posting. I follow language that usage.) More and more these days, on many mailing lists, I see *real* bottom posting(1); Several screens of quoted text below which is added a word or two of reply. It's got to the stage for me that, when I see emails, the first thing I check is the scroll bar. If that indicates more than two screens of text, I simply ignore it - it's rare indeed that, on a mailing list, an email worth reading is that long. (1) Possibly as a result of people misusing the term when they really mean in-line or interpolated posting. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Buy some love at the five and dime You Have Placed A Chill In My Heart - Eurythmics pgpRE5L1Gs7sU.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com I do not like top posting. With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on. Makes no sense at all. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/9/2015 8:07 AM, Mike Starr wrote: Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and making it presentable; the quoted part could have been cut to 4-5 lines and preserved the context for reply. (And the list footer wasn't needed at all.) z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/9/2015 1:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. (Don't forget to put And your premise is wrong already. Top posting on an email list is highly annoying to anyone that prefers to read context in order instead of upside down. I, and MANY like me, read left to right and TOP TO BOTTOM... it's just one example of plain, old fashion, good email etiquette. I realize there are those that don't read that way but they aren't posting to an email list using the English language either. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/9/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). Why keep using one scheme only? P.S. Never use bottom posting please... :) In order- You'd be amazed at what would annoy people. Because I like it. Sorry. (As I've opined before, IME many people consider what we might call inline posting to be bottom posting. I follow language that usage.) It's not only about where you put the reply text, it's about how much of the original you retain. Users of one style are more apt to remove nothing from the original message while users of the other are apt to remove large chunks. z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
And we can all say that our preferred method is the Platonic ideal of email replies but out there in the world, most users go with the default reply location set up in their email client (some of which default to top posting and some of which default to bottom posting) and if there's trimming being done, it's usually done by the email client (web or desktop), not the user. At least with top posting, I don't have to scroll through an entire digest to see the actual content of the reply. I got one like that today (a reply to a 15-message digest) and since I was already paying attention to the conversation there was no need for me to scroll whatsoever. I'm promoting top-posting with trimming; you're promoting bottom posting with trimming. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. Neither one of us is right, neither one of us is wrong. We each have our preferences and if we each adhere to the approach we prefer, everything's fine. What we can't do is flog the uninformed users into obedience (oh how I wish we could). And tanstaafl, here's your free lunch... I put in an unnecessary CR/LF between paragraphs so you won't have an issue with reading my response grin. Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer -Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/9/2015 3:13 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: Correct - this is what I meant when I said the vast majority of people who prefer bottom posting - and refer to it by that name - do NOT mean 'blindly quoting an entire message, signatures, footers and all, and adding their reply beneath it all'. To promote such as a reasonable way to interact on mailing lists would be the height of absurdity. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer -Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/9/2015 9:49 AM, JB wrote: On Thu, 4/9/15, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Thursday, April 9, 2015, 9:46 AM On 04/09/2015 12:25 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote: The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. Except those who receive digests or prefer to read the archives or actually need the quoted context to understand what you're talking about. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com I do not like top posting. With TP I have to read backwards through a conversation to understand what is going on. Makes no sense at all. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 08:21:20AM -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote: I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and making it presentable; Along with making one's MUA put signatures at the bottom… -- a difficulty for every solution -- Samuel, on the Civil Service -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
The solutions is quite simple - use top-posting if you answering to the very whole message or thread (like this). It will save your time and would annoy nobody. (Don't forget to put your signature right after your answer to show others that there is nothing else below it from you to search for.) Use inline posting if you want to answer to different parts of somebody's message separately. Why keep using one scheme only? Danil P.S. Never use bottom posting please... :) 2015-04-02 23:19 GMT+03:00 Mike Starr m...@writestarr.com: That's what it seemed to me that J.B. was expressing... that the entire message thread would be repeated in each response. However, blindly quoting the entire message is the default with many email tools (other than the few that scrub everything but the text immediately below the respondee's signature). Click *Reply* and that's what you get... and that would be the same whether you top-post or bottom-post. I try to be very conscious of it and trim whatever's not necessary but I sometimes forget as well. I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post flame wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom argument. There is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of preference with good arguments on both sides. Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer -Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/2/2015 2:57 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message. Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a reason to support their laziness. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/danil%40smirnov.la -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/9/2015 11:21 AM, Carl Zwanzig c...@tuunq.com wrote: On 4/9/2015 8:07 AM, Mike Starr wrote: Great example (below) of why I don't like bottom posting I'd say it was a much better example of not trimming content and making it presentable; the quoted part could have been cut to 4-5 lines and preserved the context for reply. (And the list footer wasn't needed at all.) Correct - this is what I meant when I said the vast majority of people who prefer bottom posting - and refer to it by that name - do NOT mean 'blindly quoting an entire message, signatures, footers and all, and adding their reply beneath it all'. To promote such as a reasonable way to interact on mailing lists would be the height of absurdity. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/3/2015 7:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: with top-posters subject to flaming. But outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot hope to prevail. Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? As I said earlier, this is what 99.999% of all people who say 'bottom-posting' mean, and to say otherwise is either just someone being pedantic, foolish, ignorant, or (more often imnsho) it is an outright trollish comment to make themselves feel better about being a lazy top-poster. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 11:26:34AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: On 4/3/2015 7:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: with top-posters subject to flaming. But outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot hope to prevail. Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? As I said earlier, this is what 99.999% of all people who say 'bottom-posting' mean, Did you know that 99.999% of all people who say 99.999% of all people are just plucking that number out of thin air? and to say otherwise is either just someone being pedantic, foolish, ignorant, or (more often imnsho) it is an outright trollish comment to make themselves feel better about being a lazy top-poster. And which am I? You can pick more than one if you like. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, 2 Apr 2015, Tanstaafl wrote: On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@forestfield.org wrote: I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests Nobody forbids you as list administrator to stop offering digests on YOUR lists. But why would you like to forbid digests to administrators and users who appreciate it ? The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one) less cluttered. I could not have said it better. -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html Do not like Firefox =29 ? Get Pale Moon ! http://www.palemoon.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in favor of bottom posting, Surely not. Bottom-posting is, if anything, worse than top-posting. With top-posting at least you get to see the reply[1] at the top of the post, and can delete it and move on with your life. With bottom- posting you have to scroll past seven pages of quoted text before you get to see their reply. with top-posters subject to flaming. But outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot hope to prevail. Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? [1] Often one line. On technical lists, that's often Works for me. On non-technical lists, Me too!. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Quoting Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info: with top-posters subject to flaming. But outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot hope to prevail. Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? I had not seen this term before. But it makes sense to me and is indeed what I meant. -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org pgpXk55sA2MlE.pgp Description: PGP Digital Signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/3/2015 4:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in favor of bottom posting, Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? To the vast majority of people that use the terms at all, bottom-posting and in-line posting are IME used interchangeably and for the same style. (Is this an in-line or bottom post? Who cares? It's not top-post. Call it 'usenet' or 'interleaved' style if you want.) z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 08:02:03AM -0700, Carl Zwanzig wrote: On 4/3/2015 4:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:12PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in favor of bottom posting, Perhaps you mean interleaved or inline posting, as I've done here? To the vast majority of people that use the terms at all, bottom-posting and in-line posting are IME used interchangeably and for the same style. I would love to see your survey results that show that. I haven't done any surveys, but in my anecdotal experience, I can tell you that the regulars on a number of Python mailing lists are aware of the difference. I can probably even find a post from a beginner who admitted to deliberately adding his reply to the very end of the quoted text, without trimming, because he had been mislead by the term bottom-posting. That's what he'd been told to do: post at the bottom, right? He was actually quite relieved to be told he was allowed to interleave question and answer. Apparently there is, or at least was in 2011, a plugin for Apple's Mail.app which enabled bottom-posting. The quoted email is inserted in its entirety above the user's response. The Wikipedia article on posting styles distinguishes between the three: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style although of course interleaved/bottom posting are indistinguishable when there is only a single point being replied to. In any case, regardless of whether it is an overwhelming majority who (mis)use the term bottom-posting for interleaved replies, or a vanishingly small minority, I believe that as we are (I hope) technically-minded people who consider precision in language important, making that distinction is important and I shall continue to do so. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
A couple points on top-posting... I'm a top-poster and not ashamed of it. If I'm following a message thread, I remember the discussion and don't want to have to scroll through a weeks worth of responses just to get to the new content. Some email clients strip all but the first message below the signature of the new message being created as a reply. That pretty much demolishes the rest of the message thread. In the case of responding to a full message thread, that means only the original post would be included with the reply. In this response (using Thunderbird), I highlighted the text I wanted to respond to before clicking *Reply List* and Thunderbird only included the highlighted text below this response. That puts the pertinent content right below my reply. Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer -Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/2/2015 12:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens wrote: I somewhat concur; I understand the desire for the feature, and I think this is the first time I've seen a reasonable reason for it as well. I think it's a nice feature to have, generally. But I don't think this justifies top-posting because I'd prefer clients to collapse quoted material, attribution, and then show the first line (or few lines) of the message. I still prefer the logical point-counterpoint of an edited response I can read from the top down. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
That's what it seemed to me that J.B. was expressing... that the entire message thread would be repeated in each response. However, blindly quoting the entire message is the default with many email tools (other than the few that scrub everything but the text immediately below the respondee's signature). Click *Reply* and that's what you get... and that would be the same whether you top-post or bottom-post. I try to be very conscious of it and trim whatever's not necessary but I sometimes forget as well. I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post flame wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom argument. There is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of preference with good arguments on both sides. Best Regards, Mike -- Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer -Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - m...@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com President - Working Writers of Wisconsin http://www.workingwriters.org/ On 4/2/2015 2:57 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message. Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a reason to support their laziness. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Please don't send direct to me, I'm on the list. On 4/2/2015 3:13 PM, Andrew Stuart andrew.stu...@supercoders.com.au wrote: I’d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or just a list of subject lines. ? Whats wrong with both? Every digest I've ever subscribed to has the list of email subjects at the top, then the content afterwards... -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 04/02/2015 12:13 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote: I’d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or just a list of subject lines. Mailman digests have a table of contents with just Subject: and From: name. On some lists, where I'm only interested in very few topics, I subscribe to the MIME format digest. I read the TOC and often stop there and delete the digest. Some times I will go on and read a message or two of interest, and maybe open one individually and reply to it. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/2/2015 2:18 PM, Mike Starr m...@writestarr.com wrote: I'm a top-poster and not ashamed of it. If I'm following a message thread, I remember the discussion and don't want to have to scroll through a weeks worth of responses just to get to the new content. This would only happen if you blindly quoted the entire message. Not ONE 'bottom poster' (inline is more correct term) would EVER suggest doing that, but I do know more than one top-poster who refuses to acknowledge this, and submits the same tired INVALID argument as a reason to support their laziness. In this response (using Thunderbird), I highlighted the text I wanted to respond to before clicking *Reply List* and Thunderbird only included the highlighted text Been doing this for many, many years (ever since TB enabled the feature). below this response. That puts the pertinent content right below my reply. When it belongs above it... But whatever, I stopped caring much a long, long time ago when I realized top-posters will never get it simply because they don't want to. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
In a message of Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:19:56 -0500, Mike Starr writes: I'll leave the discussion now... I've seen these top-post/bottom-post flame wars in the past. It's just like the toilet paper top/bottom argument. There is no *right way* to do it. It's all a matter of preference with good arguments on both sides. I miss my cat. In any house where she lived, there was _one right way to do it_. There was the right way, and the way that had her making a huge pile of tp on the bathroom floor. (Locking her out was not a desirable option. She also learned to eliminate her own waste in the toilet.) Laura -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Quoting Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org: On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@forestfield.org wrote: I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to. Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting digest versions of some email lists... The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one) less cluttered. Agreed. I see some users choosing digest options even of relatively low volume lists that I host. I myself use the digest option for certain low priority lists that I want to get to, but not right away. -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org pgp7gonGWOZlL.pgp Description: PGP Digital Signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Quoting Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org: But whatever, I stopped caring much a long, long time ago when I realized top-posters will never get it simply because they don't want to. Yes, it's a hopeless battle. The consensus on most technical lists I've seen is very strongly in favor of bottom posting, with top-posters subject to flaming. But outside that world, I find top-posting to be the norm. I agree with the logic of bottom-posting, because it is--well--logical, but cannot hope to prevail. -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org pgp6f77hc_OYq.pgp Description: PGP Digital Signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@forestfield.org wrote: I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to. Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting digest versions of some email lists... The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one) less cluttered. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
I’d like it if digests could be either the full text of the emails or just a list of subject lines. I don’t want to scroll through the full text of every message in the digest. On 3 Apr 2015, at 6:06 am, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 4/2/2015 1:45 PM, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@forestfield.org wrote: I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to. Well, liomited bandwidth was never a reason (in my mind) for wanting digest versions of some email lists... The main reason I may choose a digest version of a list is if it is high-volume, and/or I am more of a lurker than participant. In such a case digests makes the Inbox (or folder if they are filtered to one) less cluttered. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/andrew.stuart%40supercoders.com.au -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] I'd prefer clients had collapsing features, not top-post; do away with mailing list digests
Richard Damon rich...@damon-family.org wrote: Another reason that I have been told by some people that they want people to top post is that their client will show in the message list a summary of the first line of the message, and they want that to be the new content to see if it is worth reading, Tanstaafl replied: And that is actually one of the few reasonable reasons that I've ever seen supporting the argument... I somewhat concur; I understand the desire for the feature, and I think this is the first time I've seen a reasonable reason for it as well. I think it's a nice feature to have, generally. But I don't think this justifies top-posting because I'd prefer clients to collapse quoted material, attribution, and then show the first line (or few lines) of the message. I still prefer the logical point-counterpoint of an edited response I can read from the top down. I also think we should stop offering mailing list digests, particularly because I don't see a need for them now that bandwidth to most Internet users is plentiful (plentiful enough to see widespread use of HTML email, for instance) and so many users pick gratis email hosting that imposes no quota on them (to maximize effectiveness of spying on users?). I'd be willing to reconsider my opinion on digests if there were some compelling reason(s) to continue digests. So far all I see in digests are the bad points: digests break threading, replies to digests contain far more quoted material than original material, and top posting makes digests even harder for me to figure out what is being replied to. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
