Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Stephen J. Turnbull writes: Cedric Knight writes: Any more evidence? Do any standards help decide if Gmail or Mailman is wrong? Late-breaking news: apparently comment notification for Google Summer of Code are ending up in some folder, not in Inbox in Gmail. Clearly Google's bad if they can't even get their own (somewhat urgent, this was reported with student app submission less than 12 hours away) mail through. :-( -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Cedric Knight writes: Stephen J. Turnbull stephen at xemacs.org wrote on Wed Nov 20 2013: Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the Promotions tab or Forums optional tab? I don't receive any Mailman mail at my Gmail address, so I can't say. Recently I do get some Mailman mail at my Gmail address, and I've never seen it in the Promotions folder. Nor have any of the xemacs subscribers I've talked to. But these are all programming-related lists; it may be that Gmail's AI realizes that there's no way this is a sales pitch. It occurs to me now that if someone has a Forums tab, I would expect Mailman mail to got there if and only if Mailman uses the RFC 2369 headers (possibly with the exception of List-Unsubscribe) and/or the RFC 2919 List-Id header. You can turn these off. I've had complaints about this specifically with list *confirmation emails* being being misclassified under promotions, resulting in some users assuming they are subscribed when they haven't actually confirmed. That I can't help with. As Mark suggests the Precedence: bulk header may confuse some MUAs like Gmail. Any more evidence? Do any standards help decide if Gmail or Mailman is wrong? There are no standards for classifying mail, really. I would say Gmail is wrong, though, because confirmation emails are very easy to recognize, and very urgent to most users (consider password reset). Mailman might be able to help by trying to mimic the typical password reset confirmation mail. The problem may be that phishers often use mail that looks like a confirmation mail, but then you should get a phishing warning. Or maybe the issue is that Mailman allows confirmation by email, where most password confirmations require going to a specific web address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
On 03/14/2014 03:16 PM, Cedric Knight wrote: There are hints about this change at Gmail at http://groupserver.org/groups/development/messages/topic/iYuRUBysGQMMbZ98m73dZ, that it might be a result of the Precedence: bulk header added to administrivia messages. Most Mailman generated messages are Precedence: bulk. The use of Precedence: headers is discouraged by RFC 2076, and I would consider not adding the Precedence: bulk header to confirmations. This would seem reasonable even though some confirmation messages are actually spurious [1]. The question is should there be a Precedence header at all, and if so, what should its value be? [1] I once thoughtlessly posted an example of an unsubscribe URL using real data for my address and this list, and now every time a search engine web crawler crawls the list archive, I get an unsubscribe confirmation request. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Stephen J. Turnbull stephen at xemacs.org wrote on Wed Nov 20 2013: Steven Clift writes: Thanks Stephen. Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the Promotions tab or Forums optional tab? I don't receive any Mailman mail at my Gmail address, so I can't say. But hold that thought ... if you don't get any response, I'll ping some of my gmail subscribers and ask them. (Remind me after a week or so, I've been unreliable at remembering promises recently.) Reminder? I've had complaints about this specifically with list *confirmation emails* being being misclassified under promotions, resulting in some users assuming they are subscribed when they haven't actually confirmed. There are hints about this change at Gmail at http://groupserver.org/groups/development/messages/topic/iYuRUBysGQMMbZ98m73dZ, that it might be a result of the Precedence: bulk header added to administrivia messages. Any more evidence? Do any standards help decide if Gmail or Mailman is wrong? CK -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Steven Clift writes: Thanks Stephen. Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the Promotions tab or Forums optional tab? I don't receive any Mailman mail at my Gmail address, so I can't say. But hold that thought ... if you don't get any response, I'll ping some of my gmail subscribers and ask them. (Remind me after a week or so, I've been unreliable at remembering promises recently.) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Thanks Stephen. Are most mailman hosts finding their mail in Gmail heading to the Promotions tab or Forums optional tab? Steven Clift On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: Steven Clift writes: Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists? I wouldn't say it's growing. For quite a while (a decade or so) we have been getting the occasional request for help in getting mail delivered to the major freemail services and portals, including Gmail, Yahoo!, Hotmail, and AOL. I haven't noticed them getting more frequent over time, nor have I had problems delivering to them with my own lists (but I have a really easy set of users to service, most are admins or oldtimers themselves and tend to blame their freemail provider, not my lists). If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are you doing right!? Hard to say. For one thing, Mailman tries very hard to conform to the relevant RFCs (specifically 5322, 2369, and 2919). Second, most Mailman lists are set up by professionals, either people who are quite familiar with mail service including the kinds of things that keep you from getting labeled as spam, or hosting services. Not all of them are completely competent, but most do a pretty good job. Most implement DKIM and/or SPF, for example. So there may be a growing problem, and we just don't hear about it -- the host managers are dealing with it themselves. Third, we do have a pretty good FAQ on how to communicate with the big services to get on their good side. It's tedious to follow their rules, but it does work most of the time. (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.) That doesn't surprise me. I assume that the from address is web.u...@home.org as they are registered with your service. If your software is not emitting a correct Sender header, it will look like the From address is spoofed. Gmail won't like that. Make sure that in this case the Sender header is set appropriately. (Mailman doesn't have a web interface, so doesn't have experience with this itself. The most common third-party interface is Gmane, which does get the headers right. Not everybody appreciates Gmane -- they have a habit of mirroring lists whose owners don't want them mirrored -- but they do conform to the mail standards.) Hope this helps. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists? Articles like this sort of explain to rougher territory for legit email generators: http://bit.ly/1hhDQo6 We actually use the open source GroupServer.org package (a cousin to Mailman) and if this is a growing problem, we need some sort of defense network. If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are you doing right!? (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.) Thanks, Steven Clift E-Democracy.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Reducing false positives with spam markings with Gmail, etc.
Steven Clift writes: Has this been a growing issue with Mailman served lists? I wouldn't say it's growing. For quite a while (a decade or so) we have been getting the occasional request for help in getting mail delivered to the major freemail services and portals, including Gmail, Yahoo!, Hotmail, and AOL. I haven't noticed them getting more frequent over time, nor have I had problems delivering to them with my own lists (but I have a really easy set of users to service, most are admins or oldtimers themselves and tend to blame their freemail provider, not my lists). If it is not a growing problem with Mailman lists, then what are you doing right!? Hard to say. For one thing, Mailman tries very hard to conform to the relevant RFCs (specifically 5322, 2369, and 2919). Second, most Mailman lists are set up by professionals, either people who are quite familiar with mail service including the kinds of things that keep you from getting labeled as spam, or hosting services. Not all of them are completely competent, but most do a pretty good job. Most implement DKIM and/or SPF, for example. So there may be a growing problem, and we just don't hear about it -- the host managers are dealing with it themselves. Third, we do have a pretty good FAQ on how to communicate with the big services to get on their good side. It's tedious to follow their rules, but it does work most of the time. (One factor for us is that we do have a lot of users who post via the web interface, which Gmail doesn't seem to like.) That doesn't surprise me. I assume that the from address is web.u...@home.org as they are registered with your service. If your software is not emitting a correct Sender header, it will look like the From address is spoofed. Gmail won't like that. Make sure that in this case the Sender header is set appropriately. (Mailman doesn't have a web interface, so doesn't have experience with this itself. The most common third-party interface is Gmane, which does get the headers right. Not everybody appreciates Gmane -- they have a habit of mirroring lists whose owners don't want them mirrored -- but they do conform to the mail standards.) Hope this helps. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
