Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Sorry I'm getting to this so late... On 04/02/2015 03:48 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote: What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? Well, the thing I find most frustrating about the current (2.X) Mailman web interface is the Adminsitrative Database Results page. I manage a bunch of moderated lists that get large numbers of messages a day, with varying ratios of junk (spam, off-topic-for-list, misdirected, unauthorized, etc.) vs. legitimate messages that should be approved. The current design is very space-inefficient for held messages, so I can only see three held messages (more precisely, the accumulated held messages for three senders) on the screen at once. If I'm scrolling through hundreds of messages like that, it's very very hard to keep my place, make sure I'm clicking on the correct line, and make sure I haven't missed any messages. (For high-volume lists, that means that Discard all messages marked _Defer_ is too dangerous to use.) Also, because messages appear in an unpredictable order, it's very hard to see patterns. I can see at a glance if I got three messages from a particular address, but I can't see at a glance if I got three messages with subjects starting Curso-Taller or Urgent! or from the same domain. So what I would like would be a much more space-efficient summary page, with one or at most two lines per message, so I could get 20 or 30 messages in view at once, with sortable columns. Something like (mocked up in plain-text, and assume each message is on one line): defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] | admin@asesoriascreativ...[V] | Curso-Taller: Como hacer Presentaciones...[V] defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] | nore...@example.ro[V] | Von Dr. Mark Smith[V] defer(_) accept(_) reject(_) discard(_) more[V] | i...@microsoft.com [V] | Vouz avez gagne le prix Microsoft $4,000,000[V] where the things I've marked with [V] (that's supposed to be a down-arrow) are links that provide more information. (This actually seems to be a great place for JavaScript, which I normally hate; if JavaScript is disabled those links could all go to a page with more detailed information about the message, like the [1], [2], etc. links now, but if the user has JavaScript enabled they could just expand the table to insert the information below the current entry. Or maybe there's a way to do that with just CSS.) The table would be sortable by column (and ideally, maybe by things that aren't columns, like the bare domain of the From: line, the message size, whether the message has attachments, and so on). A related frustration is that the admindb page, and its single-message view, don't handle encoded data very usefully. That's obviously a very tricky thing, given that you can't trust the sender to have encoded headers or bodies validly, and especially in the case of attachments the senders are likely to be malicious. I don't know that I would want data decoded *by default*, but it would be nice to be *able* to decode headers and text attachments. (Similarly, for HTML-only messages, a textual summary of what the top of the message is going to look like would be useful, since now, the extract you can see is likely to be all stylesheet and formatting junk, even for legitimate messages from Windows users.) And if a header or body *fails* to decode, that's useful information too. Currently, I'm mostly using the command-line listadmin tool, which happens to present an interface pretty similar to what I'm talking about, but I've wanted a much more compact moderation interface since long before I knew about listadmin. I'd love to see the default admindb pages in MM3 be easier to manage. Jay -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Here's another one - some way to flag a held message to warn moderators that its content is being discussed among moderators. It would be good if it was impossible to approve a flagged message until the flag was removed, to avoid accidental release. I don't think there needs to be any security on removing the flag - it's only to prevent accidents. It's happened several times on our list that one moderator has emailed the rest of us about a message, while simultaneously another moderator has approved it. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad On 3 Apr 2015, at 6:48 am, Andrew Stuart andrew.stu...@supercoders.com.au wrote: What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? as -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/pshute%40nuw.org.au -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 4/8/15 11:34 PM, Peter Shute wrote: Andrew Stuart wrote: What's on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will - something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the background, I think. Peter Shute My understanding is this is a basic problem about using session cookies. In iOS, the browser session can end even without closing the browser, buy switching to another app, and the OS deciding it needs the memory from the browser so it unloads it, causing the cookies to disappear. Perhaps using a long-lived login cookie, but that has other security issues, and I am not positive that iOS browsers keep those either (and many more people have these disabled by default). -- Richard Damon -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:29:23AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by
your computer? :-)
As HTML is not executable code, interpreted is a misleading word to
use. But taking it in the loosest possible way, no, of course not. I
have no desire to see raw HTML content, I want my browser to render it,
I never said differently.
HTML can load swf and jar files (which themselves are bytecode that
you can't easily interpret with the naked eye.)
Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best. :-)
I'm sorry that neither I, nor the existence of Javascript malware, have
not been able to convince you that there is a large difference between
rendering a HTML document and executing code.
Javascript malware pales in comparison to swf, jre, wmf, and ocx (oh
my!) payloads (all delivered via rich HTML...) but I'm not here to
convince you about the bigger security picture.
I am happy for you to continue allowing Javascript to run in your
browser, and you should be happy to allow me to disable it by default
even if you think I'm being silly.
You are misinterpreting my remarks if you think I allow carte blanche
javascript, the truth is that I don't. All I've done is point out
that your obsession with .js apparently has no throttle for anything
rendered via pure HTML (or at least that's what you've indicated in
this thread ... I want my browser to render it,, etc.)
All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully
when Javascript is turned off. Is that so wrong?
I agree 100% with that, but if there is some Mailman admin-side
javascript functionality that needs to run I'd be happy to whitelist
it in my browser. That said, I'm working on a simple FTS
Mailman+MongoDB search patch that absolutely requires Javascript for
query results (i.e. Found 123 results matching 'query xzy') as well
as continuous pagination (i.e.
while(objobj.firstChild){obj2.appendChild(obj.firstChild)}) and
search suggestions... so I'm a bit more familiar with working with and
using javascript appropriately.
-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
cPanel has been fairly quick (but not immediate) about merging our updated releases with their custom mods, and making recent versions available to their customers. I expect this will continue with updates to Mailman 2.1. OTOH, it may be more difficult for cPanel to incorporate Mailman 3. While a large part of cPanel's MM 2.1 customizations have to do with supporting lists with the same list name in different domains on the same Mailman instance, and MM 3 does this out of the box, I expect it will be some time before cPanel offers MM 3. I posted on cPanel's forums earlier today asking them straight-out if they were planning on including Mailman 3 in their future versions of cPanel/WHM when it became stable. One of their developer's post on the forums indicated that cPanel is definitely aware of the development of Mailman 3 which I found encouraging. Brian Carpenter Owner, EMWD and Mailmanhost.com Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years. T: 336.755.0685 E: br...@emwd.com www.emwd.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 04/08/2015 03:10 PM, William Bagwell wrote: My web hosting upgraded from 2.1.17 to 2.1.18-1 on June 5 2014 so I'm assuming cPanle customers (not end users like me) can upgrade Mailman when they chose? cPanel has been fairly quick (but not immediate) about merging our updated releases with their custom mods, and making recent versions available to their customers. I expect this will continue with updates to Mailman 2.1. In any case plan to ask my host to request 3.0 in parallel with 2.1 if possible. Itching to get a test install up! OTOH, it may be more difficult for cPanel to incorporate Mailman 3. While a large part of cPanel's MM 2.1 customizations have to do with supporting lists with the same list name in different domains on the same Mailman instance, and MM 3 does this out of the box, I expect it will be some time before cPanel offers MM 3. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Quoting Adam McGreggor adam-mail...@amyl.org.uk: On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of public accommodation, and the ADA applies. It is only a matter of time before they issue specific regulations. So, in the near future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do this! No, they won't -- they can always shut down. And I suspect that's exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply the ADA standards to them. I can't be happy about that. I live in Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off. Apropos to that, the US DoJ doesn't really have much effect in jurisdictions outside of the US. I do wish we wouldn't be so parochial. Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for opportunities to organize this kind of effort. +1 A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius + HyperKitty already, are those apps ADA-compliant? Dave and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of demo sites. At least one has been posted to one of the lists; possibly -developers. -- Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer! -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com -- As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance. -- John Dewey -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Monday 06 April 2015, JB wrote: Ive been gathering that based on the research I have been doing. I am REALLY looking forward to the new version. As soon as it is out I will have to put in a feature request to the cPanle folks to make the upgrade ASAP. As an FYI, they are tad behind the times with MM. Their last upgrade was this... Change Log for 11.44.0.2 Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:35 AM Fixed case 99393: Updated mailman to 2.1.18-1. My web hosting upgraded from 2.1.17 to 2.1.18-1 on June 5 2014 so I'm assuming cPanle customers (not end users like me) can upgrade Mailman when they chose? In any case plan to ask my host to request 3.0 in parallel with 2.1 if possible. Itching to get a test install up! -- William -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Andrew Stuart wrote: What's on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? It would be helpful to me if it somehow allowed an iOS browser to stay logged in. I haven't found one that will - something to do with cookies expiring when the app is in the background, I think. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:40:19PM -0700, JB wrote: Not kicking anyone's cat here but if the ADA applies to web sites then NO WEB PAGE EVER should be allowed to utilize that HORRIBLE 'flat' design strategy. Pages such as the new ESPN page are EXTREMELY difficult to read and sue for people who have vision and reading disabilities. I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. What horrible flat design? Do you have an example? What's ESPN? -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 4/8/2015 6:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. I'd ask for the same- a UI that -requires- JS to render into a usable page is probably overly complex or heavy on the glitz/light on the functionality. z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: The only accessibility tool for the web that I'm familiar with is the ALT attribute for IMG and other non-text elements of HTML. I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, you can get a long way towards good accessibility by following standard UI guidelines and not fighting the web frameworks. E.g. don't use colour *alone* as the only distinguishing feature between elements. If you have the choice between using open HTML that a screen reader can work with, or closed Flash that screen readers cannot, then use HTML. Don't invent your own fancy (i.e. sucky) UI that doesn't interoperate with (e.g.) the tab key functionality that the browser already provides. Accessibility for the handicapped (differently abled) actually helps us all, and for the most part shouldn't be too onerous. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 09:29:23AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote: So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by your computer? :-) As HTML is not executable code, interpreted is a misleading word to use. But taking it in the loosest possible way, no, of course not. I have no desire to see raw HTML content, I want my browser to render it, I never said differently. Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best. :-) I'm sorry that neither I, nor the existence of Javascript malware, have not been able to convince you that there is a large difference between rendering a HTML document and executing code. I am happy for you to continue allowing Javascript to run in your browser, and you should be happy to allow me to disable it by default even if you think I'm being silly. All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. Is that so wrong? -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 04/08/2015 06:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: All I asked for is that Mailman's web UI should degrade gracefully when Javascript is turned off. Is that so wrong? No it's not and Mailman's developers are highly sensitive to this. I have not been very much involved in MM 3 development - almost not at all outside of the core (2.1 support still takes a lot of energy and someone has to do it) - but I can assure you that the people working on the Postorius web UI are very much in agreement with you on this. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
8.4.2015, 3:26, Stephen J. Turnbull kirjoitti: (standards that don't start with RFC are generally not on our required reading lists). Please keep the details coming. We care, we just don't have the cycles to do it ourselves without help. As to WCAG 2.0, it's W3C's recommendation for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/). Testing tools can be found at http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/, and information for evaluating web content accessibility at http://www.w3.org/WAI/eval/Overview.html. Taking accessibility aspects into account often make web content more usable to all users. I understand that this is a volunteer project, and there are limited resources available. Best, Teijo -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Executive summary: 1. Some aspects of accessibility (providing text alternatives for non-text media) can be treated like translation (and will increase the burden on translation!) 2. Frameworks need to help point out the pain points. Like: Yo! there's an ALT-less image here that you can tag! 3. Frameworks can and should take advantage of embedded comments in non-text media. 4. I personally don't have much clue about partially sighted (color issues or extreme myopia), or those who lack the dexterity to mouse around. However, frameworks can do a lot of the work for improving accessibility for those less dextrous (tab navigation), and maybe for partial sight? David Andrews writes: I know what you say is true. Nevertheless, it makes me sad. Twenty percent of the population has some sort of disability, yet accessibility just isn't taught in computer science courses. The 85% of the world which strongly prefers to use a language other than English bothers me more, to be honest (especially since that's 100% of my dayjob users). Funny thing, American universities don't teach Japanese and Chinese to their CS students. Sad, isn't it? The only accessibility tool for the web that I'm familiar with is the ALT attribute for IMG and other non-text elements of HTML. I should think that filling in the ALT blanks would be amenable to the same kind of volunteer effort that provides our natural language translations. I hope that a similar kind of separate effort can deal with many of the accessibility issues. Obviously, the incentive will have to be somewhat different. Unlike translators who generally get involved for their own convenience and have some English ability that grows stronger with the practice, blind people aren't going to be able to write the descriptions of images or video that they need for themselves in many cases, and it's unlikely that they'll improve dramatically with practice. :-( But it should be quite possible to recruit sighted volunteers for the task. I'm not sure how to deal with the partially sighted, although I suppose use of relative dimensions and some CSS is helpful. But this is exactly where frameworks can help. I'm even less sure what to do about colorblindness, and people who lack sufficient dexterity for pointing and clicking. The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of public accommodation, and the ADA applies. It is only a matter of time before they issue specific regulations. So, in the near future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do this! No, they won't -- they can always shut down. And I suspect that's exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply the ADA standards to them. I can't be happy about that. I live in Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off. Using a current, industrial-strength framework is not a guarantee of accessibility, and passing the buck to them will ultimately not hold water. It had better at least reduce the leakage to a trickle! If it doesn't, accessibility isn't going to happen. Content accessibility really has to be a matter of a separate volunteer effort (especially since every ALT attribute increases the burden on our translators!!), with most of the pain points being automatically pointed out by the framework. And things like checking for color and sufficient size of clickable elements and the like should be automatable. Realistically, programmers are *not* going to do this in general. In the case of Mailman, we'll do some of it, but it's hard enough to create a usable site for ourselves, let alone the sighted and nimble in general -- I doubt accessibility is something we'll get to in Mailman 3.0 (except to the extent that general usability principles provide a strong basis for accessible pages, as apparently happened with Mailman 2). Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for opportunities to organize this kind of effort. The translators prove that such volunteer efforts are practical, and most translators seem to be willing to donate effort to apps they don't use when necessary (obviously, experienced users are preferred). Translators might also be willing to do this kind of thing. But translation only really took off with the development of gettext -- earlier systems were just too painful all around. So you should also be looking for ways to improve the frameworks. For example, most image, audio, and video media now provide for textual comments embedded in the stream. While most content authors do not (yet) provide useful comments, some do and others would be encouraged to do so if the frameworks automagically extracted them and provided them as default ALT attributes. By the way, the web UI for Mailman 2.X is very accessible -- at least for blind persons. That's nice to know!
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Teijo writes: As to WCAG 2.0, it's W3C's recommendation for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/). Maybe this standard is better, but most W3C standards are not very helpful to app developers. They're intended for library and framework developers, as well as conformance testing. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:31:04AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by your computer? This is increasingly getting less and less on-topic, but to give a brief answer, HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. (I'm aware that technically HTML5 + CSS is Turing complete, but it's completely impractical as a programming language.) Web devs use Javascript because it allows them to run more or less arbitrary code, which is either impossible or impossibly difficult from HTML alone. While it is possible that buggy or malicious HTML alone might crash my browser, it is far easier and more likely to do so from Javascript. So, you do want to see the HTML content before it is interpreted by your computer? :-) Look, your JS vs HTML argument is cloudy at best. :-) -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:31:50AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of public accommodation, and the ADA applies. It is only a matter of time before they issue specific regulations. So, in the near future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do this! No, they won't -- they can always shut down. And I suspect that's exactly what will happen to most volunteer sites if they try to apply the ADA standards to them. I can't be happy about that. I live in Japan, and I assure you that public policies that equalize benefits by reducing the average suck -- especially for the less-well-off. Apropos to that, the US DoJ doesn't really have much effect in jurisdictions outside of the US. I do wish we wouldn't be so parochial. Really, you accessibility advocates should be looking for opportunities to organize this kind of effort. +1 A few real lists are running with Mailman 3 + Postorius + HyperKitty already, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of demo sites. At least one has been posted to one of the lists; possibly -developers. -- Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer! -- Duke of Edinburgh, on being offered the finest Italian wines by PM Giuliano Amato at a dinner in Rome in 2000. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 4/6/2015 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!) Actually, it sounds like NoScript is more what you are looking for (I use AdBlock too though)... -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 06:50:55AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: On 4/6/2015 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!) Actually, it sounds like NoScript is more what you are looking for (I use AdBlock too though)... YOu are absolutely right, and in fact NoScript is what I have been using. After six weeks of having it disabled though, I got the name mixed up. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by your computer? -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
6.4.2015, 2:17, David Andrews kirjoitti: A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. Have developers of Mailman 3 default web Ui kept this important point in mind? Best, Teijo -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Sorry if I enter now in the thread at an arbitrary point. Sincerely I'm rather happy with the *current* mailman interface, and in particular I'm used to it. Considered that there should be quite a large base of mailman lists around, that they are unlikely to migrate to a new UI soon, and that list administrator tasks are something one does rather seldom ... ... e.g. I administrate a very small list (10 subscribers) on my machine (probably will add a couple soon), I moderate a quite larger (1000 subscribers) nationwide on a server in another city, and administrate a couple intermediate ones (~300 and 20 subscribers) in another continent, while I do not count the lists I'm subscribed as a user ... ... and the frequency of access as archive user / moderating out spam / customizing my user profile / customizing list parameters / initial setup of a list goes in decreasing order ... ... my main requisite would be that any new mailman UI remains as close as possible to the current one (or has a way to revert to it) !!! Possibly the only real improvement (change) I'd like would be in the way to go through the subscriber list (e.g. scroll alphabetically, or search users who have a specific flag settings). -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html Do not like Firefox =29 ? Get Pale Moon ! http://www.palemoon.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Quoting Bill Cole mailmanu-20150...@billmail.scconsult.com: On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote: Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is entirely practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments administering a complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one small piece of that. I frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI browser configured to my tastes/paranoias running on a network I trust, and it is actually more convenient for me to use a text browser with weak or no JS support (yes, really.) It is also an issue for user support, since users do work with the MM web interface from time to time. JS is an area where interop between browsers and the diverse ways users tweak them is at its worst. Supporting users who have found new ways for the MM web interface to not work because of JS subtleties sounds like at least the 6th ring of Hell. Also, sticking with a pure HTML client interface makes it easier to validate its security, e.g. a site with no scripts has no XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of web application that one spends hours at a time using, so the slicker operation you can get from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable. Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity of use. +1 D -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com -- As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance. -- John Dewey -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote: Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is entirely practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments administering a complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one small piece of that. I frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI browser configured to my tastes/paranoias running on a network I trust, and it is actually more convenient for me to use a text browser with weak or no JS support (yes, really.) It is also an issue for user support, since users do work with the MM web interface from time to time. JS is an area where interop between browsers and the diverse ways users tweak them is at its worst. Supporting users who have found new ways for the MM web interface to not work because of JS subtleties sounds like at least the 6th ring of Hell. Also, sticking with a pure HTML client interface makes it easier to validate its security, e.g. a site with no scripts has no XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of web application that one spends hours at a time using, so the slicker operation you can get from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable. Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity of use. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
As someone who raised this issue 15 years ago and was seriously rebuffed with lots of notes that said essentially this is a mailing list and not a web forum I then started looking elsewhere. Anyway, my NGO has put a lot into our web interface for our primarily email based set of neighborhood forums built on GPL GroupServer: http://forums.e-democracy.org Kick the tires and steal as much as you can for Mailman. I'd check out what other mail-centric platforms have also developed like: http://wordsandwriting.github.io/lumen/ http://DGroups.org https://www.sympa.org/ Personally, it would be great to see all these open source mailing list projects work together ... despite the different code bases. Our members increasingly expect Facebook Groups like experiences and discovery of new groups to join, etc. ... and I don't see how we attract the next generation of users without upgrading our web-based design and engagement (why still preserving full email participation). On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Dave Stevens g...@uniserve.com wrote: Quoting Bill Cole mailmanu-20150...@billmail.scconsult.com: On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:02, Andrew Stuart wrote: Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? I don't know the original poster's motivations, but for me it is entirely practical. I work in a diverse variety of environments administering a complex menagerie of systems and Mailman is just one small piece of that. I frequently don't have a convenient modern GUI browser configured to my tastes/paranoias running on a network I trust, and it is actually more convenient for me to use a text browser with weak or no JS support (yes, really.) It is also an issue for user support, since users do work with the MM web interface from time to time. JS is an area where interop between browsers and the diverse ways users tweak them is at its worst. Supporting users who have found new ways for the MM web interface to not work because of JS subtleties sounds like at least the 6th ring of Hell. Also, sticking with a pure HTML client interface makes it easier to validate its security, e.g. a site with no scripts has no XSS vulnerabilities. MM isn't the sort of web application that one spends hours at a time using, so the slicker operation you can get from a JS-heavy system isn't really very valuable. Short version: a tool like the MM web interface should minimize the possible failure modes even if that means sacrificing some fluidity of use. +1 D -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/geek%40uniserve.com -- As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance. -- John Dewey -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/slc%40publicus.net -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
David Andrews writes: A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. We do use industrial-strength web frameworks, mostly Django. To the extent they support the string-of-letters-and-digits standard, we will certainly take advantage of those capabilities. Javascript- disabled, several of us are definitely in favor and know how to do it. If that's not good enough, detailed advice, and better yet designs and patches, welcome! Sorry, but that's the reality in a volunteer project. I'm willing to do it for money (hourly rate negotiable) :-), but the LOC per hour would be ruinously low because I am not a spectacularly fast programmer to start with and know nothing about the standard mentioned. Other project members tend to be faster, with less spare time, and quite likely about the same amount of knowledge of the relevant standards (standards that don't start with RFC are generally not on our required reading lists). Please keep the details coming. We care, we just don't have the cycles to do it ourselves without help. Regards, -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 08:31:04AM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. How do you currently see the HTML content before it is interpreted by your computer? This is increasingly getting less and less on-topic, but to give a brief answer, HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. (I'm aware that technically HTML5 + CSS is Turing complete, but it's completely impractical as a programming language.) Web devs use Javascript because it allows them to run more or less arbitrary code, which is either impossible or impossibly difficult from HTML alone. While it is possible that buggy or malicious HTML alone might crash my browser, it is far easier and more likely to do so from Javascript. -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
At 07:26 PM 4/7/2015, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: David Andrews writes: A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. We do use industrial-strength web frameworks, mostly Django. To the extent they support the string-of-letters-and-digits standard, we will certainly take advantage of those capabilities. Javascript- disabled, several of us are definitely in favor and know how to do it. If that's not good enough, detailed advice, and better yet designs and patches, welcome! Sorry, but that's the reality in a volunteer project. I'm willing to do it for money (hourly rate negotiable) :-), but the LOC per hour would be ruinously low because I am not a spectacularly fast programmer to start with and know nothing about the standard mentioned. Other project members tend to be faster, with less spare time, and quite likely about the same amount of knowledge of the relevant standards (standards that don't start with RFC are generally not on our required reading lists). Please keep the details coming. We care, we just don't have the cycles to do it ourselves without help. Regards, I know what you say is true. Nevertheless, it makes me sad. Twenty percent of the population has some sort of disability, yet accessibility just isn't taught in computer science courses. The Federal government is supposed to buy accessible technology -- and many states, in the U.S. like mine Minnesota, also have laws requiring us to procure accessible technology and web sites. The Justice Department has already said that the web is a place of public accommodation, and the ADA applies. It is only a matter of time before they issue specific regulations. So, in the near future, anyone producing publicly facing web sites will need to do this! Using a current, industrial-strength framework is not a guarantee of accessibility, and passing the buck to them will ultimately not hold water. While at one time turning off javascript was one way to increase accessibility, this is no longer the case. By the way, the web UI for Mailman 2.X is very accessible -- at least for blind persons. If anyone has an actual site I can get to, I will take a look. I am not a professional accessibility tester, just a skilled amateur who also runs a bunch of Mailman lists, as a 2nd job Thanks! Dave -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Not kicking anyone's cat here but if the ADA applies to web sites then NO WEB PAGE EVER should be allowed to utilize that HORRIBLE 'flat' design strategy. Pages such as the new ESPN page are EXTREMELY difficult to read and sue for people who have vision and reading disabilities. Having said that (and this may sound contradictory) making sure that pages are usable by ADA people is great but you cannot more difficult or cumbersome in doing so. The ADA complaint should be an alternative page layout if necessary just as many pages (rightfully so) have a mobile version. IOW it is not necessarily as import that all pages being ADA per se as it is that they all have an ADA 'version'. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? as On 7 Apr 2015, at 9:48 am, J.B. Nicholson-Owens j...@forestfield.org wrote: Andrew Stuart wrote: Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? Thanks for asking. Such an interface would work completely without running any Javascript to do anything the interface can do. If Javascript is turned off in the browser, the interface should work completely. If Javascript is turned on in the browser, the Javascript should be free software and clearly labeled as free Javascript so the LibreJS add-on will recognize it and let the user run it. But no Javascript would be required to use the Mailman interface at all. I see no reason why anyone's Mailman task should require Javascript. The perfect Mailman web interface would do what it needs to do with links, form submissions, and CSS but work fully with text-only browsers like lynx, links, and so on. Disabled persons access is, of course, something a perfect interface would offer. I am sure others can point you to the relevant standards/linters to implement and validate this. Also, the perfect Mailman web interface would let admins use gratis, auto-renewing[1] TLS certificates such as what letsencrypt.org is proposing to do[2]. Until we can get away from the current ridiculousness to publish encrypted websites, letsencrypt.org is the most promising practical means I know of to increase the number of encrypted websites. A Mailman web interface should offer a 1-click means of acquiring a letsencrypt.org certificate that automatically renews itself until the admin clicks the button again to stop using that letsencrypt.org certificate. And it should be trivially easy to make all visits to the site use encryption. The defaults for this web interface are critical because they will be what most installations will offer (I believe most users of most programs don't change or investigate defaults). [1] I know this automation requires the interface's back-end to do the renewing using letsencrypt.org API, but from the admin's perspective this is automatic certificate renewing. [2] Obviously I don't know the details of letsencrypt.org's setup because they've not yet begun production use of their service. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/andrew.stuart%40supercoders.com.au -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Andrew Stuart wrote: Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? Thanks for asking. Such an interface would work completely without running any Javascript to do anything the interface can do. If Javascript is turned off in the browser, the interface should work completely. If Javascript is turned on in the browser, the Javascript should be free software and clearly labeled as free Javascript so the LibreJS add-on will recognize it and let the user run it. But no Javascript would be required to use the Mailman interface at all. I see no reason why anyone's Mailman task should require Javascript. The perfect Mailman web interface would do what it needs to do with links, form submissions, and CSS but work fully with text-only browsers like lynx, links, and so on. Disabled persons access is, of course, something a perfect interface would offer. I am sure others can point you to the relevant standards/linters to implement and validate this. Also, the perfect Mailman web interface would let admins use gratis, auto-renewing[1] TLS certificates such as what letsencrypt.org is proposing to do[2]. Until we can get away from the current ridiculousness to publish encrypted websites, letsencrypt.org is the most promising practical means I know of to increase the number of encrypted websites. A Mailman web interface should offer a 1-click means of acquiring a letsencrypt.org certificate that automatically renews itself until the admin clicks the button again to stop using that letsencrypt.org certificate. And it should be trivially easy to make all visits to the site use encryption. The defaults for this web interface are critical because they will be what most installations will offer (I believe most users of most programs don't change or investigate defaults). [1] I know this automation requires the interface's back-end to do the renewing using letsencrypt.org API, but from the admin's perspective this is automatic certificate renewing. [2] Obviously I don't know the details of letsencrypt.org's setup because they've not yet begun production use of their service. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 10:02:32AM +1000, Andrew Stuart wrote: Sounds like not working with JavaScript is something important to you. What’s the thinking behind wanting to work without JavaScript? Isn’t it kinda hard to navigate the modern web without JavaScript? Yes it is, but not as painful as using the modern web *with* Javascript. For complicated reasons that will take too long to describe, I've been running Opera (with no ad-blocking software at all) and Firefox (Ad-Block disabled) for the last six weeks, both with Javascript enabled. Call it an experiment, if you like, although that's not actually why I'm doing it. My conclusion: The modern web is a horror without Ad-Block disabling Javascript by default. Honestly, I don't know how non-technical people and those on IE manage. Perhaps they don't. Aside: I thought I had it bad until I started using Chrome, which for some reason ignores my web proxy. My proxy blocks a lot of ads at the server. With Chrome, I see the web as ordinary people see it. *shudders* It's not just the popup windows. It's not just the sites that hijack the right-click menu. It's not just the autoplay videos. It's not even the browser crashes! (Mostly Opera, Firefox seems a bit more stable.) Any one of them alone is enough to make Javascript-off-by-default essential, in my opinion. (Thank you Ad-Block!) But the worst is the mysterious Javascript scripts that run in the background, grinding my computer almost to a halt. What they do, I don't know. What tab they are associated with, there is no way to tell. All I know is that with Javascript on, my browser starts using 100% of the available CPU, my system's load goes through the roof, and using other applications slows down and becomes painful. I turn Javascript off, and the CPU usage drops to normal. I turn it back on, and everything is fine for a while, until I refresh some tab, or open a new one at the wrong site, and before I know it, I have a load of 8 or 10 again. Allegedly secure sandbox or not, I'm not happy when web sites *demand* that you run their untrusted and untrustworthy code in your computer before you can see the content. I get that using a complex and rich web application is going require some Javascript, but if you (generic you, not you personally) insist on me running untrusted code in order to view what is essentially static text and a few graphics, then you are simply being rude. When I go back to using Ad-Block (I'm counting the days...) I could always Allow Javascript for mailman admin pages on a case-by-case basis. But there is another reason for avoiding Javascript even so. With Javascript, I can only use a GUI web browser to use the admin pages. But without it, I can use text-only, no-Javascript browsers like lynx. That's really handy for administrating mailman installations behind a firewall, where the admin pages are not visible over the Internet, but only inside the LAN. I can ssh into the network, then use lynx or equivalent to browse to the local admin pages. Of course using a text browser is never quite as good a user experience as a nice graphical UI, but if the alternative is a six hour drive to a distant customer, then I'll use what I can get :-) -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
Ive been gathering that based on the research I have been doing. I am REALLY looking forward to the new version. As soon as it is out I will have to put in a feature request to the cPanle folks to make the upgrade ASAP. As an FYI, they are tad behind the times with MM. Their last upgrade was this... Change Log for 11.44.0.2 Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:35 AM Fixed case 99393: Updated mailman to 2.1.18-1. On Mon, 4/6/15, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like? To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Monday, April 6, 2015, 12:43 AM On 04/05/2015 09:33 PM, JB wrote: There should be no predefined interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way what so ever. As a web developer I should make the decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the entire interface. You will have that in Mailman 3. The web UI we provide (Postorius) will be fully functional, but if you don't like it and can't skin it to your liking in Django, you can write your own. The architecture is modular for exactly this reason, The web UI and the core mailing list engine are separate entities that talk to each other via a defined RESTful API. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart wrote: Whatâs on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that youâd like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. Dave David Andrews and long white cane Harry. E-Mail: dandr...@visi.com or david.andr...@nfbnet.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Apr 5, 2015 7:27 PM, David Andrews dandr...@visi.com wrote: At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart wrote: What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. +1 Bryan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
There should be no predefined interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way what so ever. As a web developer I should make the decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the entire interface. On Sun, 4/5/15, David Andrews dandr...@visi.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like? To: Andrew Stuart andrew.stu...@supercoders.com.au, mailman-users@python.org Date: Sunday, April 5, 2015, 7:17 PM At 02:48 PM 4/2/2015, Andrew Stuart wrote: What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? A reminder that any web UI, whether end user, or administrator, needs to be accessible to disabled persons -- preferably it will use the WCAG 2.0 AA standards. Dave David Andrews and long white cane Harry. E-Mail: dandr...@visi.com or david.andr...@nfbnet.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jebva%40yahoo.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On 04/05/2015 09:33 PM, JB wrote: There should be no predefined interface, at least none that is not customizable in any way what so ever. As a web developer I should make the decision on the look and feel on my end so that for each site I build, I can completely customize every aspect of the entire interface. You will have that in Mailman 3. The web UI we provide (Postorius) will be fully functional, but if you don't like it and can't skin it to your liking in Django, you can write your own. The architecture is modular for exactly this reason, The web UI and the core mailing list engine are separate entities that talk to each other via a defined RESTful API. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 06:48:12AM +1100, Andrew Stuart wrote: What’s on your wishlist for the perfect Mailman web interface? If you can provide links to show where your ideas are done well that would help to illustrate your thoughts. Any killer features that you’d like to see in the perfect Mailman web interface? Are you referring to the administration UI, the subscribe UI, the archives, or what? Speaking rather generically: A nice clean look. Perhaps a bit more modern than the current look, but not cluttered or trying to emulate a full desktop application. Must be friendly for the visually impaired. Nine point medium-grey text on a light-grey background is evil. Must be usable via text-based browsers, like lynxs, links, w3m. Must degrade gracefully in the absence of Javascript. Preferably not need Javascript at all. At least some search functionality should be available. It shouldn't rely on Google, or any external search engine. (E.g. your archive may be private, or on a LAN where Google can't get to it.) Archive URLs must be stable even if posts are deleted. Access to the original posts should be possible. E.g. archives could provide a link which goes to the raw email of the original post, as a mbox file or even a text dump of the email (complete with all headers and attachments). Alternatively, Send me this post should forward the post to the user. (What are the security implementations of this? Can this be used to spam or DOS others?) As a third option, perhaps archives could have IMAP access? (Read-only for users, read/write for admin?) Viewing public archives shouldn't require cookies. It's okay to require them for admin access, or for private archives. Infinite scroll is evil and must not be used, ever. Yes, yes, I know that web developers have fallen in love with it. They're wrong. Should support OpenID. Are you aware of Hyperkitty? https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/wiki/WikiStart -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
