Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 19 May 2021, at 17:09, Pete Resnick wrote: > It used to be the case that some clients did the right thing with > format=flowed, but if you used quoted-printable "wrapping" to make really > long lines for paragraphs, they would display them using a horizontal scroll > bar. I don't know what the current state of affairs is. At least with > format=flowed, you get a 72-column wrap in clients which don't support it, > which is not so bad in most clients. And in clients that do support it, it > looks good, even on really tiny phone screens. I agree “format=flowed” is the best solution in theory. Maybe it would help if reference-implementations were easily available (e.g., C++ and javascript) -- including a test suite. Similar to CommonMark I guess. It might still be possible to put pressure on most email client developers to add support for at least parsing “format=flowed” correctly. That would, in time, make it easier for email clients like MailMate to default to using “format=flowed” for outgoing emails. -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
It used to be the case that some clients did the right thing with format=flowed, but if you used quoted-printable "wrapping" to make really long lines for paragraphs, they would display them using a horizontal scroll bar. I don't know what the current state of affairs is. At least with format=flowed, you get a 72-column wrap in clients which don't support it, which is not so bad in most clients. And in clients that do support it, it looks good, even on really tiny phone screens. It makes me crazy that clients don't support it; it's the simpleist thing in the world to implement for both sending and receiving, and it makes editing messages with quotes so much easier. (BTW: I'd love MM to have the option to send "text/plain; markup=markdown; format=flowed" and no HTML to certain folks.) pr On 14 May 2021, at 14:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: On 3 May 2021, at 15:43, Pete Resnick wrote: Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, IMO. To be honest, I wanted to see if anyone cared/noticed. I'm only seeing less `format=flowed` in the world and it's not working well for some MailMate users. They may even be the majority, but they don't know why they are getting hard-wrapped replies when sending emails using MailMate which only require plain text (and therefore has no HTML part). It's very likely I'll switch it back in some way, but I would like to find some kind of middleground solution which could work well for most users most of the time. For example, it would at least make sense to always use `format=flowed` for the plain text part when HTML is generated since that is unlikely to be a problem for most email clients (they either prefer HTML using an HTML editor or they have proper plain text support). When sending plain text then it could perhaps depend on whatever MailMate knows about the correspondent, e.g., the email client used or the content-type headers seen in the past. It's tricky though since some email clients may not generate it while they are able to parse it. Note that Gmail (webmail) can do neither. But note **I'm not trying to start a discussion on what is theoretically best here**. I'm only concerned about what works best in practice by default for all types of users. I'll make sure to provide an option to force the use of `format=flowed` on all outgoing emails for any users still believing the world will learn to embrace it. I'm not really there anymore :( And yes, the quoted printable encoder in MailMate isn't as good as it could be (horrible wrapping choices). -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 3 May 2021, at 15:43, Pete Resnick wrote: > Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: > > - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. > For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. > > Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, > IMO. To be honest, I wanted to see if anyone cared/noticed. I'm only seeing less `format=flowed` in the world and it's not working well for some MailMate users. They may even be the majority, but they don't know why they are getting hard-wrapped replies when sending emails using MailMate which only require plain text (and therefore has no HTML part). It's very likely I'll switch it back in some way, but I would like to find some kind of middleground solution which could work well for most users most of the time. For example, it would at least make sense to always use `format=flowed` for the plain text part when HTML is generated since that is unlikely to be a problem for most email clients (they either prefer HTML using an HTML editor or they have proper plain text support). When sending plain text then it could perhaps depend on whatever MailMate knows about the correspondent, e.g., the email client used or the content-type headers seen in the past. It's tricky though since some email clients may not generate it while they are able to parse it. Note that Gmail (webmail) can do neither. But note **I'm not trying to start a discussion on what is theoretically best here**. I'm only concerned about what works best in practice by default for all types of users. I'll make sure to provide an option to force the use of `format=flowed` on all outgoing emails for any users still believing the world will learn to embrace it. I'm not really there anymore :( And yes, the quoted printable encoder in MailMate isn't as good as it could be (horrible wrapping choices). -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 11 May 2021, at 17:04, m...@rhp.tw wrote: I looked into _format=flowed_ when Benny made this change to learn about it, and [this blog by Fastmail](https://fastmail.blog/advanced/format-flowed/) outlines some of the major concerns surrounding the standard. Mostly, it seems that it's not well (or consistently) supported. Ugh. That blog is from 2016, and has several errors: - Thunderbird has it on by default AFAICT. - Even if others don't support format=flowed, the message looks like a normal plain text message on the other end. No harm is done by supporting it. - The IETF uses plain text mailing lists and never asks for format=flowed to be disabled. I have no idea what lists would ask for such a thing or why it would cause any line wrapping problems, except for sending around code patches inline in the text instead of as an attachment. Even there, who doesn't hard-wrap code at 72 characters? (Maybe I'm old.) - The problem with HTML is not bloat, but the inability to edit replies reasonably. - You can use a regular HTML editor to implement; you simply have to be able to realize that the HTML produced only has quoting and nothing else and convert that to text/plain format=flowed. I've done that. It's not rocket science. - His last point seems to be that he has a hammer (Text::Autoformat) and therefore anything that is not a nail is a problem. Color me unimpressed. I am a big supporter of Benny's using Markdown and plain text as much as reasonably possible. I don't want that to go away. If more people would at least interpret format=flowed, the world would be a better place, IMO. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
I looked into _format=flowed_ when Benny made this change to learn about it, and [this blog by Fastmail](https://fastmail.blog/advanced/format-flowed/) outlines some of the major concerns surrounding the standard. Mostly, it seems that it's not well (or consistently) supported. On Tue May 11, 2021 at 11:28 AM, Eric Sharakan wrote: > Hi Benny, can you please address this question, as it has many of us puzzled? > > Thanks. > > -Eric > > On 7 May 2021, at 7:16, Philip Paeps wrote: > >> On 2021-05-03 21:43:18 (+0800), Pete Resnick wrote: >>> Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: >>> >>> - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. >>> For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. >>> >>> Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, >>> IMO. >> >> I've been wondering about this change too. I know there are awkward >> interactions between format=flowed and inline PGP (and possibly S/MIME) but >> `MmFormatFlowedEnabled` seems a lot more useful to be default *on* rather >> than default *off*. >> >> I did a `defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmFormatFlowedEnabled -bool >> true` immediately after installing r5800. >> >> Philip >> >> -- >> Philip Paeps >> Senior Reality Engineer >> Alternative Enterprises >> ___ >> mailmate mailing list >> mailmate@lists.freron.com >> https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate > > ___ > mailmate mailing list > mailmate@lists.freron.com > https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
Hi Benny, can you please address this question, as it has many of us puzzled? Thanks. -Eric On 7 May 2021, at 7:16, Philip Paeps wrote: > On 2021-05-03 21:43:18 (+0800), Pete Resnick wrote: >> Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: >> >> - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. >> For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. >> >> Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, >> IMO. > > I've been wondering about this change too. I know there are awkward > interactions between format=flowed and inline PGP (and possibly S/MIME) but > `MmFormatFlowedEnabled` seems a lot more useful to be default *on* rather > than default *off*. > > I did a `defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmFormatFlowedEnabled -bool true` > immediately after installing r5800. > > Philip > > -- > Philip Paeps > Senior Reality Engineer > Alternative Enterprises > ___ > mailmate mailing list > mailmate@lists.freron.com > https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 2021-05-03 21:43:18 (+0800), Pete Resnick wrote: Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, IMO. I've been wondering about this change too. I know there are awkward interactions between format=flowed and inline PGP (and possibly S/MIME) but `MmFormatFlowedEnabled` seems a lot more useful to be default *on* rather than default *off*. I did a `defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmFormatFlowedEnabled -bool true` immediately after installing r5800. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 3 May 2021, at 6:46 MST, Pete Resnick wrote about format=flowed: And I see by not having it on it made a dog's breakfast out of the text/plain part of the message: Here's what I see with MailMate Version 2.0BETA (6092) running under OS 10.9.5 (have to do the message body with a screen shot): Content-Type: text/plain; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  I agree, I'd also like to see more format=flowed in the world, and I too am wondering why this changed -- and, heh, what happens after "for now" ... ? ビリー ヨーデルマん +1 310 839 7673 http://MIX.ORG/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
On 3 May 2021, at 15:43, Pete Resnick wrote: > Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: > > Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. For > now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. > Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, > IMO. I agree, and it appears messages signed with S/MIME never use format=flowed (with MailMate), even when MmFormatFlowedEnabled is set. I don’t think that is a limitation of the S/MIME standards because old messages I sent using Mulberry did use format=flowed together with S/MIME. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME digital signature ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
And I see by not having it on it made a dog's breakfast out of the text/plain part of the message: --=_MailMate_42A53CB9-8CD1-48D6-8729-324169A243ED_= Content-Type: text/plain; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=3Dflowed standa= rd. For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/pref= erred. Why the change? There should be more format=3Dflowed in the world, not le= ss, IMO. pr -- = Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best Blech. Again, why the change? pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
[MlMt] Default format=flowed change in 5800?
Saw this in the release notes for Test Build 5800: - Changed: By default, MailMate no longer uses the format=flowed standard. For now, it can be enabled using MmFormatFlowedEnabled if needed/preferred. Why the change? There should be more format=flowed in the world, not less, IMO. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com https://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
