Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Michael Rathbun]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 16:51:38 +, Laura Atkins 
wrote:

>Personally, I believe Microsoft is going to do what they’re going to do. This 
>isn’t just about their filtering, this is a giant corporate culture that has 
>some Extremely Poor Policies that are unfriendly to people and are actively 
>harmful to the internet. 

and to Microsoft.

> My big complaints aren’t mail related, they’re other 
>abuse issues that Microsoft simply isn’t dealing with. But getting Microsoft 
>to step up and change and become a responsible corporate member of the 
>internet? I just don’t see it happening, no matter how much evidence is 
>presented. 

Certainly my efforts to move things when I was inside the beast nearly all
came to nought.  Nor was I by any means alone.  If they wouldn't listen to us,
who were known (or at least hired) to be exceedingly knowledgeable of the
net.universe and purveyors of valuable counsel, you probably won't be heeded,
unless your net worth exceeds $0.25T and there would be Corporate Interest in
your opinions.

>Thing is, what can we do about it? At least one ESP has told me they’ve sent 
>Microsoft clear evidence that their filtering is broken. This was… sometime 
>over the summer, I think (I’ve got to admit, the move has really disrupted my 
>life). Given Microsoft still hasn’t changed and their statements at recent 
>conferences that they’re happy with the filtering as is. It’s pretty clear to 
>me they’re not listening to anyone complaining and the only real solution is 
>figure out how to work in their paradigm. 

I consider this assessment to be, unfortunately, correct.  

mdr
-- 
   We are all temps.
  -- Daisy Adair


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Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Laura Atkins]

> On 28 Dec 2018, at 15:50, Benjamin BILLON  wrote:
> 
> Ah, I would have answered off-list, but since it's here, I can certainly 
> reply here.
>  
> Preamble: if there's a better channel than Mailop to give Microsoft an 
> educated feedback about an apparent disfunction of their service, please let 
> me know. I already tried quite a few "official" others with no result. Also, 
> we've been patient and polite, maybe too much. You don't take care of patient 
> people's problems, you prioritize those of the loud ones (yellow jacket, 
> anyone?). It's all human. As for Gmail Postmaster Tools APIs, if the email 
> community doesn't make noise enough to be heard by Google that we want those 
> and why, chances are we'll never get them (and I said I would work on making 
> some noise, and still didn't yet, I'm also only human, apparently).

I haven’t found public shaming to be effective at getting significant policy 
changes to happen in most cases. Even in the cases I’ve been involved in that 
did involve some public statements that could be considered public shaming, 
there was a significant amount of behind the scenes work. One on one and small 
group (sometimes under NDA) discussions about the issues, evidence shared. The 
public piece was a small bit of the overall work that went into convincing the 
companies involved that their policies were bad. 

And that’s what you’re trying to do: convince Microsoft that their filtering is 
broken. In my experience this is possible, but not third hand through employees 
who post on a public mailing list. It’s mostly relationship based and finding 
the decision maker inside the company. The MS employees who post here have made 
it very, very clear they’re not the decision makers. All they can do is pass 
information on. They’re likely frustrated as well. But they’re in an even more 
uncomfortable position.

Personally, I believe Microsoft is going to do what they’re going to do. This 
isn’t just about their filtering, this is a giant corporate culture that has 
some Extremely Poor Policies that are unfriendly to people and are actively 
harmful to the internet. My big complaints aren’t mail related, they’re other 
abuse issues that Microsoft simply isn’t dealing with. But getting Microsoft to 
step up and change and become a responsible corporate member of the internet? I 
just don’t see it happening, no matter how much evidence is presented. 

> A _lot_ of senders are hitting issues with Outlook.com . 
> A lot of them understands that it's not an easy issue to fix, and that it's 
> less a priority than catching phishing, pedophilia contents or other things 
> that make Outlook's people sweat, but it doesn't mean that it's not a real 
> problem that shouldn't be fixed at some point. A lot of senders are also 
> staying quiet, for various reasons, but are still sharing the same legitimate 
> frustration.

There are problems we can fix and problems we can’t. We can’t make Microsoft 
change. We can’t force them to listen to us. We can present them with data 
showing the problems, but we cannot force them to change things. More recently, 
the public statements from Microsoft tell me the filtering is working for them. 
I’m really unconvinced that "sharing frustrations" is a useful way to get 
policy changed. 

>  So, dear readers, there's a new piece of information since earlier today: I 
> found out that the "weird behavior" came back, but not on the shared IPs I 
> said I switched that client into. Indeed, for an unknown reason that my team 
> is trying to figure out, the client's last few sendings (those with the 
> issue) were sent from their dedicated IPs. So with the same issue as before 
> the switch of IPs.

That does change everything. Much of my post was related to trusting you were 
reliably describing what was happening - that you’d moved to new IPs and the 
filters caught up. That wasn’t the situation, so yeah, OK, Microsoft filtering 
is broken. Still. Again. It’s not you, it’s them. Small facts can make 
seriously big differences. This is one of those things. It changes everything. 
It means everything I said to you is based on incorrect facts. Which makes it 
bad advice. I’m sorry. I can only go on what you tell us. 

Thing is, what can we do about it? At least one ESP has told me they’ve sent 
Microsoft clear evidence that their filtering is broken. This was… sometime 
over the summer, I think (I’ve got to admit, the move has really disrupted my 
life). Given Microsoft still hasn’t changed and their statements at recent 
conferences that they’re happy with the filtering as is. It’s pretty clear to 
me they’re not listening to anyone complaining and the only real solution is 
figure out how to work in their paradigm. 

laura 

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Benjamin BILLON]

Ah, I would have answered off-list, but since it's here, I can certainly reply 
here.

Preamble: if there's a better channel than Mailop to give Microsoft an educated 
feedback about an apparent disfunction of their service, please let me know. I 
already tried quite a few "official" others with no result. Also, we've been 
patient and polite, maybe too much. You don't take care of patient people's 
problems, you prioritize those of the loud ones (yellow jacket, anyone?). It's 
all human. As for Gmail Postmaster Tools APIs, if the email community doesn't 
make noise enough to be heard by Google that we want those and why, chances are 
we'll never get them (and I said I would work on making some noise, and still 
didn't yet, I'm also only human, apparently).
A _lot_ of senders are hitting issues with Outlook.com. A lot of them 
understands that it's not an easy issue to fix, and that it's less a priority 
than catching phishing, pedophilia contents or other things that make Outlook's 
people sweat, but it doesn't mean that it's not a real problem that shouldn't 
be fixed at some point. A lot of senders are also staying quiet, for various 
reasons, but are still sharing the same legitimate frustration.

So, dear readers, there's a new piece of information since earlier today: I 
found out that the "weird behavior" came back, but not on the shared IPs I said 
I switched that client into. Indeed, for an unknown reason that my team is 
trying to figure out, the client's last few sendings (those with the issue) 
were sent from their dedicated IPs. So with the same issue as before the switch 
of IPs.
That means there's no new signal that Outlook.com or its users are _still_ 
considering the emails are unwanted with the new IPs.
Although I understand that having the same issues after switching IPs could 
mean that there was a problem of traffic quality with previous IPs, and it's 
still there with the new ones, that would be ignoring the impact a domain name, 
a sender's email address, or other elements of an email can have. We know 
Microsoft relies a lot on IPs, but we also saw it stumbles quite often (some 
IPs with no traffic change, or no traffic at all, are getting blocked out of 
nowhere).

Turns out that the only piece of news in my previous message was that despite 
whitelisting the sender's domain name, the "TimeTravel" behavior still occurs, 
which straightens me in the idea that there's a bug on Outlook.com's side.

Now to reply Laura's points (there's nothing confidential here, I have not much 
to hide, and it could benefit to others in various ways):

> 1) Mail going to the bulk folder? That sign says: Your mail is bad, our users 
> don’t want it and we’re going to protect them from it.
This is the common understanding of it, yes. Minus false positives.
Just in case I didn't say it already, this traffic is very legitimate opt-ins, 
messages are nice, inactives are excluded, 40% open rates on average, etc. : 
the perfect client an ESP can dream of.

> 2)  Mail going to the bulk folder after reaching the inbox because you 
> changed IPs? Our users are telling us that when we put your mail in the inbox 
> they don’t want it there.
That would be a big hint indeed; but as explained, my case is in fact not in 
this scenario.

> 3) The closing of tickets without any response?  We’ve told you repeatedly 
> what you need to do to fix things and you aren’t paying any attention. We’re 
> tired of sending you the same information, and there’s nothing more we’re 
> able to tell you.
That could work for several Support teams I know of, but copy/pasting 
irrelevant texts (because that's all the support agents are legally allowed to 
do) isn't what you're depicting. In the context of Outlook.com's support for 
instance, it doesn't work that way.
Maybe it's "we are not allowed to answer anything else than the copy/pasted 
stuff so we just won't reply at all", hence my initial and unanswered request 
for escalation.
If I continue to push for this ticket, it's in the hope that someone will be 
looking at SLA and other statistics like Support team managers do: time of 
response, number of tickets per agent, number of replies, etc. and that maybe 
some light will be shed on the case. Yet another channel where I try to be 
heard.

> 4) The overruling of address book whitelisting? This mail is so bad and the 
> sender has such a poor reputation, we’re not going to let it go to the inbox 
> even when the user adds the sender to their inbox.
Ow come on. Seriously? I prefer to consider you're trolling here.
This would be a very bad way to deal with users' preferences, but after all, if 
a system thinks he knows better than its users, why not? (Yes I'm the one 
trolling now)


Cheers,
--
Benjamin

From: Laura Atkins 
Sent: vendredi 28 décembre 2018 14:00
To: Stefano Bagnara 
Cc: mailop ; Benjamin BILLON ; Michael 
Wise 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Ou

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[G. Miliotis]

On 28/12/2018 14:59, Laura Atkins wrote:


3) The closing of tickets without any response?  We’ve told you 
repeatedly what you need to do to fix things and you aren’t paying any 
attention. We’re tired of sending you the same information, and 
there’s nothing more we’re able to tell you.



That's just rude.
--GM

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Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Laura Atkins]

> On 28 Dec 2018, at 12:47, Stefano Bagnara  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 at 12:40, Laura Atkins  wrote:
>> I sent Ben a long-ish email with some specific information and suggestions. 
>> And I say this as someone who does delivery for a living. These types of 
>> complaints and “whining time” are wholly inappropriate for mailop.
> 
> IMO the feedback from Benjamin is very useful for both Microsoft
> (sounds like Ben found a bug, considering the previous answer from
> Michael) and for us (so we don't waste days trying to understand weird
> issues when we know someone else already saw the same thing).

This isn’t a weird issue, though. It may have been, at one point, but Microsoft 
is, overwhelmingly, telling Benjamin “enough of our users are reacting in a way 
that means your mail is spam that we’re going to put it in the bulk folder.” I 
outlined those signals in my mail to him, but I’m happy to share them here. 

1) Mail going to the bulk folder? That sign says: Your mail is bad, our users 
don’t want it and we’re going to protect them from it. 

2)  Mail going to the bulk folder after reaching the inbox because you changed 
IPs? Our users are telling us that when we put your mail in the inbox they 
don’t want it there. 

3) The closing of tickets without any response?  We’ve told you repeatedly what 
you need to do to fix things and you aren’t paying any attention. We’re tired 
of sending you the same information, and there’s nothing more we’re able to 
tell you. 

4) The overruling of address book whitelisting? This mail is so bad and the 
sender has such a poor reputation, we’re not going to let it go to the inbox 
even when the user adds the sender to their inbox. 

> I understand Ben frustration: Outlook show a weird behaviour, he would
> like to do the right thing and submit feedback to Microsoft so to "fix
> the issue" but he didn't find the way. He could workaround the issue
> by moving the email to new IPs periodically but he invest his time
> trying to do "the right thing”.

Moving to new IPs is one way to try and reset filters. In this case, it worked 
briefly. That tells us everything we need to know, and the problem here isn’t 
microsoft, in my experience. 

 Your mail got put in the inbox, 2 weeks later it started going to bulk again. 
That, to me, is unarguably a sign that the recipients are the problem. They are 
acting in ways that tells Microsoft that the mail is unwanted. The moving back 
to the spam folder is the filters are reacting to user response. The recipients 
don’t want the mail, therefore Microsoft is putting it in their spam folder. 

> IMHO "whining" is not necessarily something done to bore Microsoft or
> Michael, but simply sharing the "mood" after spending days trying to
> guess behaviours.

Whining was his words, not mine.  

> We all appreciate each other dedication to fix issues, but often
> issues with Microsoft are lost: Michael is not a superhero and no one
> expect him to be able to deal with everything, but I think we should
> encourage sharing the issues even if Michael was not subscribed to
> this list, because "operations" are often made simpler if you know
> someone else is experiencing the same issues.
> 
> Laura, I think your answer to Ben could have been interesting for
> others here, but for sure I can say I'd be happy to read it in the
> mailop list.

While there are significant issues with how Microsoft is delivering mail, there 
is nothing that has been said in this particular situation that makes me think 
that the problem here is Microsoft. 

laura 


-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Laura Atkins]

I sent Ben a long-ish email with some specific information and suggestions. And 
I say this as someone who does delivery for a living. These types of complaints 
and “whining time” are wholly inappropriate for mailop. 

laura 


> On 28 Dec 2018, at 10:09, Benjamin BILLON  wrote:
> 
> Hi Michael and others, 
>  
> So I did something I usually don't do: I switched to other IPs (the client 
> has dedicated IPs, we switched to shared ones to send to Outlook.com 
> ), and while a previous test wasn't conclusive a few 
> weeks before, this time it worked: messages were delivered in inbox and 
> stayed there. 
> That lasted for two weeks, now we're getting the same issue of dest:I, then 
> moved to Junk after a few seconds. The Support still doesn't answer to this, 
> but I didn't receive a "ticket is closed thxbye" notification for 
> SRX1448704980ID so far. 
> I don't plan to play switching to other IPs again, that's not how we roll and 
> the fact that a big receiver would "force" a good sender to do so leaves me 
> speechless. I know it's (probably) not on purpose, but there's apparently a 
> flaw in the bug reporting process.
>  
> ANYWAY, I didn't came back _solely_ to complain, I also have a new element to 
> add: I added the sending domain in whitelist of my @outlook.com personal 
> account. I sent myself a test. Result: dest:I, then moved to junk. 
>  
> Apparently I'm not the only one: 
> https://outlook.uservoice.com/forums/601444/suggestions/34103461 
> 
>  
> Michael, if you have colleagues to poke, I'm of course at your disposal to 
> provide any relevant data or feedback they'd need.
>  
> Cheers, and happy few last days of 2018!
>  
> --
> Benjamin
> 
>  
> From: Michael Wise  > 
> Sent: jeudi 6 décembre 2018 20:17
> To: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>; Al 
> Iverson mailto:aliver...@aliverson.com>>; mailop 
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
> Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com  Support (whining time)
>  
>  
> That sounds like, “TimeTravel”. Hmm.
> That’s what we call retroactively moving things to Junk if it looks too much 
> like a spam campaign in the eyes of the machine.
>  
> I’ll forward this to others who are in a better position to investigate it.
> All I can go on, usually, is the Dest:I or J.
>  
> Aloha,
> Michael.
> --
> Michael J Wise
> Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
> "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
> Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool 
>  ?
>  
> From: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> 
> Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 9:15 AM
> To: Michael Wise  >; Al Iverson  >; mailop  >
> Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com  Support (whining time)
>  
> Hi Michael, 
>  
> When you say the wording is very important, do you mean that "please 
> escalate" isn't correct? I just tried the word "escalation" (I checked, I 
> didn't use this one exactly yet), we'll see. If there's another wording to 
> use ... I'd love to know it =)
>  
> The "proof" I have that emails are reaching inbox is that I can reproduce and 
> see it happening right in front of me. It's in inbox, then disappears after a 
> few seconds, popping in junk. Headers show dest:I, and not dest:J like other 
> messages I could find in Junk folder.
>  
> Cheers, 
> --
> Benjamin
> 
>  
> From: Michael Wise  > 
> Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2018 21:52
> To: Al Iverson mailto:aliver...@aliverson.com>>; 
> Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
> Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
> Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com  Support (whining time)
>  
>  
> Oops.
> Please understand that the wording is VERY important.
> The email may in fact be getting to the mailbox SERVER, but there is no 
> guarantee that it is not in fact being delivered to junk.
>  
> And if that was me, sorry, been crazy busy recovering from Thanksgiving 
> Madness.
>  
> Aloha,
> Michael.
> --
> Michael J Wise
> Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
> "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
> Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool 
> 
>  ?
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> 
> On Behalf Of Al Iverson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:27 AM
> To: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
> Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Outlook.com  Support (whining time)
>  
> 

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Benjamin BILLON]

Hi Michael and others,

So I did something I usually don't do: I switched to other IPs (the client has 
dedicated IPs, we switched to shared ones to send to Outlook.com), and while a 
previous test wasn't conclusive a few weeks before, this time it worked: 
messages were delivered in inbox and stayed there.
That lasted for two weeks, now we're getting the same issue of dest:I, then 
moved to Junk after a few seconds. The Support still doesn't answer to this, 
but I didn't receive a "ticket is closed thxbye" notification for 
SRX1448704980ID so far.
I don't plan to play switching to other IPs again, that's not how we roll and 
the fact that a big receiver would "force" a good sender to do so leaves me 
speechless. I know it's (probably) not on purpose, but there's apparently a 
flaw in the bug reporting process.

ANYWAY, I didn't came back _solely_ to complain, I also have a new element to 
add: I added the sending domain in whitelist of my @outlook.com personal 
account. I sent myself a test. Result: dest:I, then moved to junk.

Apparently I'm not the only one: 
https://outlook.uservoice.com/forums/601444/suggestions/34103461

Michael, if you have colleagues to poke, I'm of course at your disposal to 
provide any relevant data or feedback they'd need.

Cheers, and happy few last days of 2018!

--
Benjamin

From: Michael Wise 
Sent: jeudi 6 décembre 2018 20:17
To: Benjamin BILLON ; Al Iverson ; 
mailop 
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)


That sounds like, “TimeTravel”. Hmm.
That’s what we call retroactively moving things to Junk if it looks too much 
like a spam campaign in the eyes of the machine.

I’ll forward this to others who are in a better position to investigate it.
All I can go on, usually, is the Dest:I or J.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 9:15 AM
To: Michael Wise 
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>; Al Iverson 
mailto:aliver...@aliverson.com>>; mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

Hi Michael,

When you say the wording is very important, do you mean that "please escalate" 
isn't correct? I just tried the word "escalation" (I checked, I didn't use this 
one exactly yet), we'll see. If there's another wording to use ... I'd love to 
know it =)

The "proof" I have that emails are reaching inbox is that I can reproduce and 
see it happening right in front of me. It's in inbox, then disappears after a 
few seconds, popping in junk. Headers show dest:I, and not dest:J like other 
messages I could find in Junk folder.

Cheers,
--
Benjamin

From: Michael Wise 
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>
Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2018 21:52
To: Al Iverson mailto:aliver...@aliverson.com>>; 
Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)




Oops.

Please understand that the wording is VERY important.

The email may in fact be getting to the mailbox SERVER, but there is no 
guarantee that it is not in fact being delivered to junk.



And if that was me, sorry, been crazy busy recovering from Thanksgiving Madness.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Cc7bcd1fc959549f8cb0708d65b9e4b63%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636797132832134756=zNfzyPQ4G49%2FNVVvqTHABlTSf%2Ft30LBHaRPT%2Fht4W%2FQ%3D=0>
 ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Al Iverson
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)



Hey Benjamin, I am having similar (I think) problems over here where I request 
mitigation or feedback regarding junk folder delivery and no matter what I say, 
MS sender support says everything is fine, even though the mail is clearly not 
going to the inbox.



I would even be happy to get a response that says "this mail is going to the 
junk folder appropriately based on sending reputation" but nothing like that 
comes. It is always, "we see no issue and don't understand what you're asking." 
I keep asking to escalate as well, to no avail.



I am wondering if perhaps some filtering at Microsoft could be broken.

I reached out to one Microsoft contact last

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Michael Wise via mailop]

That sounds like, “TimeTravel”. Hmm.
That’s what we call retroactively moving things to Junk if it looks too much 
like a spam campaign in the eyes of the machine.

I’ll forward this to others who are in a better position to investigate it.
All I can go on, usually, is the Dest:I or J.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: Benjamin BILLON 
Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2018 9:15 AM
To: Michael Wise ; Al Iverson 
; mailop 
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

Hi Michael,

When you say the wording is very important, do you mean that "please escalate" 
isn't correct? I just tried the word "escalation" (I checked, I didn't use this 
one exactly yet), we'll see. If there's another wording to use ... I'd love to 
know it =)

The "proof" I have that emails are reaching inbox is that I can reproduce and 
see it happening right in front of me. It's in inbox, then disappears after a 
few seconds, popping in junk. Headers show dest:I, and not dest:J like other 
messages I could find in Junk folder.

Cheers,
--
Benjamin

From: Michael Wise 
mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>
Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2018 21:52
To: Al Iverson mailto:aliver...@aliverson.com>>; 
Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)




Oops.

Please understand that the wording is VERY important.

The email may in fact be getting to the mailbox SERVER, but there is no 
guarantee that it is not in fact being delivered to junk.



And if that was me, sorry, been crazy busy recovering from Thanksgiving Madness.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Cc7bcd1fc959549f8cb0708d65b9e4b63%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636797132832134756=zNfzyPQ4G49%2FNVVvqTHABlTSf%2Ft30LBHaRPT%2Fht4W%2FQ%3D=0>
 ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Al Iverson
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)



Hey Benjamin, I am having similar (I think) problems over here where I request 
mitigation or feedback regarding junk folder delivery and no matter what I say, 
MS sender support says everything is fine, even though the mail is clearly not 
going to the inbox.



I would even be happy to get a response that says "this mail is going to the 
junk folder appropriately based on sending reputation" but nothing like that 
comes. It is always, "we see no issue and don't understand what you're asking." 
I keep asking to escalate as well, to no avail.



I am wondering if perhaps some filtering at Microsoft could be broken.

I reached out to one Microsoft contact last week, and have gotten no response. 
I emailed them again, and a second contact, today but have yet to hear back.



Cheers,

Al Iverson

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 1:04 PM Benjamin BILLON 
mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> wrote:

>

> Hi there,

>

>

>

> It's understood and proven, Outlook.com can accept emails, deliver them to 
> inbox, then move them to Junk folder a few seconds later.

>

> This a posteriori moving makes sense to clean users' inboxes from scams, 
> phishing or spams that have been spotted a little too late.

>

>

>

> My case (SRX1448704980ID) of course is far from these contexts, and yet I 
> couldn't get any sensible answer. The keyword "escalation" seems broken ...

>

> I had other, unrelated cases fixed in a breeze (or two).

>

>

>

> So, I'm keeping the ticket open by asking for news every few days, but I just 
> can't stop thinking there's something abnormal here, and I apparently can't 
> wave enough for this to be noticed.

>

> I (non-secretly) hope the Microsoft folks in the list would be able to poke 
> around internally, but I'm still convinced this is not how this should be 
> handled.

>

>

>

> Side notes:

>

> I _did_ see changes in the Support process recently. Now there's a templated 
> confirmation email sent, subject lines and some URLs have been updated 
> (copy/pasted part are still pointing to 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpostmaster.live.com%2Fsnds%2FFAQ.aspxdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d6

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Benjamin BILLON]

Hi Michael,

When you say the wording is very important, do you mean that "please escalate" 
isn't correct? I just tried the word "escalation" (I checked, I didn't use this 
one exactly yet), we'll see. If there's another wording to use ... I'd love to 
know it =)

The "proof" I have that emails are reaching inbox is that I can reproduce and 
see it happening right in front of me. It's in inbox, then disappears after a 
few seconds, popping in junk. Headers show dest:I, and not dest:J like other 
messages I could find in Junk folder.

Cheers,
--
Benjamin

From: Michael Wise 
Sent: mardi 4 décembre 2018 21:52
To: Al Iverson ; Benjamin BILLON 
Cc: mailop 
Subject: RE: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)




Oops.

Please understand that the wording is VERY important.

The email may in fact be getting to the mailbox SERVER, but there is no 
guarantee that it is not in fact being delivered to junk.



And if that was me, sorry, been crazy busy recovering from Thanksgiving Madness.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Al Iverson
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON mailto:bbil...@splio.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)



Hey Benjamin, I am having similar (I think) problems over here where I request 
mitigation or feedback regarding junk folder delivery and no matter what I say, 
MS sender support says everything is fine, even though the mail is clearly not 
going to the inbox.



I would even be happy to get a response that says "this mail is going to the 
junk folder appropriately based on sending reputation" but nothing like that 
comes. It is always, "we see no issue and don't understand what you're asking." 
I keep asking to escalate as well, to no avail.



I am wondering if perhaps some filtering at Microsoft could be broken.

I reached out to one Microsoft contact last week, and have gotten no response. 
I emailed them again, and a second contact, today but have yet to hear back.



Cheers,

Al Iverson

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 1:04 PM Benjamin BILLON 
mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> wrote:

>

> Hi there,

>

>

>

> It's understood and proven, Outlook.com can accept emails, deliver them to 
> inbox, then move them to Junk folder a few seconds later.

>

> This a posteriori moving makes sense to clean users' inboxes from scams, 
> phishing or spams that have been spotted a little too late.

>

>

>

> My case (SRX1448704980ID) of course is far from these contexts, and yet I 
> couldn't get any sensible answer. The keyword "escalation" seems broken ...

>

> I had other, unrelated cases fixed in a breeze (or two).

>

>

>

> So, I'm keeping the ticket open by asking for news every few days, but I just 
> can't stop thinking there's something abnormal here, and I apparently can't 
> wave enough for this to be noticed.

>

> I (non-secretly) hope the Microsoft folks in the list would be able to poke 
> around internally, but I'm still convinced this is not how this should be 
> handled.

>

>

>

> Side notes:

>

> I _did_ see changes in the Support process recently. Now there's a templated 
> confirmation email sent, subject lines and some URLs have been updated 
> (copy/pasted part are still pointing to 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpostmaster.live.com%2Fsnds%2FFAQ.aspxdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdata=GFLyEbpnrZRlEWQLw7a7MHALa2PJ7%2BxHX8QRECkl2yo%3Dreserved=0
>  and 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpostmaster.msn.com%2Fsnds%2Fdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdata=dQHkuD1d7XcG5CChto%2F20Jaiy%2BH27VWfoxSGtY7AF%2FU%3Dreserved=0
>  though), so I _know_ there are people working there, and this is greatly 
> appreciated.

> Do not put List-unsubscribe URLs in your emails with the Support (when 
> providing samples of headers, for instance), as something, somewhere, 
> apparently checks what's behind the link. By "clicking" on it.

>

>

>

> Cheers,

>

> --

> Benjamin

>

>

>

> ___

> mailop mailing list

> mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>

> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchill

> i.

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Oops.

Please understand that the wording is VERY important.

The email may in fact be getting to the mailbox SERVER, but there is no 
guarantee that it is not in fact being delivered to junk.



And if that was me, sorry, been crazy busy recovering from Thanksgiving Madness.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Al Iverson
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON 
Cc: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)



Hey Benjamin, I am having similar (I think) problems over here where I request 
mitigation or feedback regarding junk folder delivery and no matter what I say, 
MS sender support says everything is fine, even though the mail is clearly not 
going to the inbox.



I would even be happy to get a response that says "this mail is going to the 
junk folder appropriately based on sending reputation" but nothing like that 
comes. It is always, "we see no issue and don't understand what you're asking." 
I keep asking to escalate as well, to no avail.



I am wondering if perhaps some filtering at Microsoft could be broken.

I reached out to one Microsoft contact last week, and have gotten no response. 
I emailed them again, and a second contact, today but have yet to hear back.



Cheers,

Al Iverson

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 1:04 PM Benjamin BILLON 
mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> wrote:

>

> Hi there,

>

>

>

> It's understood and proven, Outlook.com can accept emails, deliver them to 
> inbox, then move them to Junk folder a few seconds later.

>

> This a posteriori moving makes sense to clean users' inboxes from scams, 
> phishing or spams that have been spotted a little too late.

>

>

>

> My case (SRX1448704980ID) of course is far from these contexts, and yet I 
> couldn't get any sensible answer. The keyword "escalation" seems broken ...

>

> I had other, unrelated cases fixed in a breeze (or two).

>

>

>

> So, I'm keeping the ticket open by asking for news every few days, but I just 
> can't stop thinking there's something abnormal here, and I apparently can't 
> wave enough for this to be noticed.

>

> I (non-secretly) hope the Microsoft folks in the list would be able to poke 
> around internally, but I'm still convinced this is not how this should be 
> handled.

>

>

>

> Side notes:

>

> I _did_ see changes in the Support process recently. Now there's a templated 
> confirmation email sent, subject lines and some URLs have been updated 
> (copy/pasted part are still pointing to 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpostmaster.live.com%2Fsnds%2FFAQ.aspxdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdata=GFLyEbpnrZRlEWQLw7a7MHALa2PJ7%2BxHX8QRECkl2yo%3Dreserved=0
>  and 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpostmaster.msn.com%2Fsnds%2Fdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdata=dQHkuD1d7XcG5CChto%2F20Jaiy%2BH27VWfoxSGtY7AF%2FU%3Dreserved=0
>  though), so I _know_ there are people working there, and this is greatly 
> appreciated.

> Do not put List-unsubscribe URLs in your emails with the Support (when 
> providing samples of headers, for instance), as something, somewhere, 
> apparently checks what's behind the link. By "clicking" on it.

>

>

>

> Cheers,

>

> --

> Benjamin

>

>

>

> ___

> mailop mailing list

> mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>

> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchill

> i.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=02%7C0

> 1%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C

> 72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdat

> a=iDjQxAnbOX4FDqKabyiSx8wv0mrksM3nHGU3rAGSACY%3Dreserved=0







--

al iverson // 312-725-0130 // miami

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliverson.comdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636795452753962179sdata=Tzj6jvR%2BMNW5EsSksrR0itsCZbljG4P1Nh4ghIb%2BQtc%3Dreserved=0

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spamresource.comdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C239bf53035354a07d1bf08d65a1722f1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6367954527539621

Re: [mailop] Outlook.com Support (whining time)

[Al Iverson]

Hey Benjamin, I am having similar (I think) problems over here where I
request mitigation or feedback regarding junk folder delivery and no
matter what I say, MS sender support says everything is fine, even
though the mail is clearly not going to the inbox.

I would even be happy to get a response that says "this mail is going
to the junk folder appropriately based on sending reputation" but
nothing like that comes. It is always, "we see no issue and don't
understand what you're asking." I keep asking to escalate as well, to
no avail.

I am wondering if perhaps some filtering at Microsoft could be broken.
I reached out to one Microsoft contact last week, and have gotten no
response. I emailed them again, and a second contact, today but have
yet to hear back.

Cheers,
Al Iverson
On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 1:04 PM Benjamin BILLON  wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
>
>
> It's understood and proven, Outlook.com can accept emails, deliver them to 
> inbox, then move them to Junk folder a few seconds later.
>
> This a posteriori moving makes sense to clean users' inboxes from scams, 
> phishing or spams that have been spotted a little too late.
>
>
>
> My case (SRX1448704980ID) of course is far from these contexts, and yet I 
> couldn't get any sensible answer. The keyword "escalation" seems broken ...
>
> I had other, unrelated cases fixed in a breeze (or two).
>
>
>
> So, I'm keeping the ticket open by asking for news every few days, but I just 
> can't stop thinking there's something abnormal here, and I apparently can't 
> wave enough for this to be noticed.
>
> I (non-secretly) hope the Microsoft folks in the list would be able to poke 
> around internally, but I'm still convinced this is not how this should be 
> handled.
>
>
>
> Side notes:
>
> I _did_ see changes in the Support process recently. Now there's a templated 
> confirmation email sent, subject lines and some URLs have been updated 
> (copy/pasted part are still pointing to 
> https://postmaster.live.com/snds/FAQ.aspx and http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/ 
> though), so I _know_ there are people working there, and this is greatly 
> appreciated.
> Do not put List-unsubscribe URLs in your emails with the Support (when 
> providing samples of headers, for instance), as something, somewhere, 
> apparently checks what's behind the link. By "clicking" on it.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Benjamin
>
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop



-- 
al iverson // 312-725-0130 // miami
http://www.aliverson.com
http://www.spamresource.com

___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop