Re: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
Multas gratias! O for a Vergilian example. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
Multas gratias! I'll check the A 6 references! J --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
nec Teucris addita Iuno usquam aberit, cum tu supplex in rebus egenis quas gentis Italum aut quas non oraueris urbes! Aeneid VI.90-92 I wouldn't regard this as an example of anacolouthon, since there is no real change in construction; as the commentaries note, quas ... non is the equivalent of omnes. I've been checking the indices of various Virgilian commentaries in search of examples. Page notes one at 11.554 telum 552 has no verb to govern it, but is picked up by huic and a new construction introduced. Here is the passage: telum immane, manu ualida quod forte gerebat bellator, solidum nodis et robore cocto, huic natam, libro et siluestri subere clausam, implicat atque habilem mediae circumligat hastae. Williams' commentary on Aeneid V notes a controversial case around line 708: or to put it another way *senior Nautes* is left, by an anacolouthon, without a construction. I gather that scholars have tried punctuating the passage to remove the difficulty; in any case, Williams commends Henry's commentary here as demolishing the arguments of previous scholars, and I won't transcribe it in full. James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics The Memorial University of Newfoundland St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
Aeneid VI.90-92 I wouldn't regard this as an example of anacolouthon, Then how about Aeneid VI.119-123: si potuit manis accersere coniugis Orpheus Threicia fretus cithara fidibus canoris, si fratrem Pollus alterna morte redemit itque reditque uiam totiens. quid Thesea, magnum quid memorem Aliden? et mi genus ab Ioue summo. None of the commentaries that I have seen call this an example of anacoluthon. H. E. Butler's gloss on 119 goes: The apodosis comes in 123 _et mi genus ab Ioue summo_, _quid ... Alciden?_ being parenthetical. But I find that unconvincing. If Orpheus ..., if Pollux ..., I too ...: what sort of a conditional sentence is that? Some of the translators render the passage with an anacoluthon in English. Harington's is very striking. Seamus Heaney's too: If Orpheus could call back the shade of a wife through his faith In the loudly plucked strings of his Thracian lyre, If Pollux could redeem a brother by going in turns Backwards and forwards so often to the land of the dead, And if Theseus too, and great Hercules ... But why speak of them? I myself am of highest birth, a descendent of Jove. The Lonsdale and Lee translation (a 19th cent crib) also has one: If Orpheus could summon the spirit of his bride, strong in his Thracian lyre and tuneful strings; if Pollux ransomed his brother by dying for him in turn, and so often goes and comes back along the path,---why should I speak of mighty Theseus, why of Alcides? my descent also is from sovereign Jove. I don't believe for a minute that _et mi genus ab Ioue summo_ is the apodosis answering the protasis of the two _si_ clauses. As Heaney's punctuation suggests, and likewise Lonsdale and Lee's, it's a continuation of the thought begun by the anacoluthonic (is there such a word?) _quid Thesea_ or _quid Thesea magnum_. Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
Then how about Aeneid VI.119-123: si potuit manis accersere coniugis Orpheus Threicia fretus cithara fidibus canoris, si fratrem Pollus alterna morte redemit itque reditque uiam totiens. quid Thesea, magnum quid memorem Aliden? et mi genus ab Ioue summo. None of the commentaries that I have seen call this an example of anacoluthon. H. E. Butler's gloss on 119 goes: The apodosis comes in 123 _et mi genus ab Ioue summo_, _quid ... Alciden?_ being parenthetical. But I find that unconvincing. If Orpheus ..., if Pollux ..., I too ...: what sort of a conditional sentence is that? Perhaps Vergil would have made the missing thought clear in performance, by inserting the appropriate gesture after totiens. I don't know exactly how a Roman would say What about me? using only his face and hands, but I think I can imagine some possibilities... --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
Dear Jane, Not sure whether you need definitions or not, but here from my beloved Allen and Greenough (the one book wonder with out which I never enter a classroom): Anacoluthon : a change of grammatical structure in the same sentewnce,leaving the first part broken or unfinished. anastrophe: inversion of the usual word order Dangling participles can be used to demonstrate anacolothon in English, and 'Jabberwocky' will give good examples of the anastrophe. I am rootling about in Mountford and Shultz to see if I can exract examples by way of Servius - but Iam certain there are those on line who can rattle off examples! Helen COB From: David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:09:48 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: anacolouthon Message forwarded by listowner follows Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:45:21 -0500 From: Jane Ebersole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ferte auxilium! Ferte auxilium! I am interested in the use of anacolouthon in Vergil's Aeneid. Although I am checking my panic, I am pretending knowledge to my students. We are using the Pharr edition, but he lists no examples. How do I explain the difference between anacolouthon and anastrophe? If you can send me specific examples (i.e. line number) from Books I and/or II, I would really appreciate your scholarship. .And as long as Findlay High School's mascot is the Trojan, we will build altars to your namewell, you get the idea. Multas gratias, furens magistra, Jane Ebersole --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, c. --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: anacolouthon
nec Teucris addita Iuno usquam aberit, cum tu supplex in rebus egenis quas gentis Italum aut quas non oraueris urbes! Aeneid VI.90-92 Attachment Converted: C:\Email attachments\winmail1.dat From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Dec 13 14:50:09 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Dec 13 20:22:02 2001 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id fBDKKpV09697; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:20:51 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: anacolouthon X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:20:35 +0100 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: h(0!!!6E!TQ8!!h-b! Helen Conrad schrieb: Anacoluthon : a change of grammatical structure in the same sentewnce,leaving the first part broken or unfinished. About a half a year ago I sent a longer letter to this list, theme: the parentheseis in the beginning of Aeneis (1,12; schwerfällig nachklappende Apposition 1,13.14, aber als ob das nicht genüge, hängt sich da noch ein und noch ein und noch ein Nachklapp an). The biggest of these parantheseis is obviously that in 1,25-28, and the sentence before is so broken, that it has no finite verb as praedicatum: a anakolouth. On the other hand it continues AFTER that parenthesis, again hanging Nachklapp to Nachklapp, es klappert nur so nach - and it has some irony, that after that enormous parenthesis and neverending sentencesnake (in the beginning of the work!) this part ends with the sigh: tantae molis erat... but nobody has given an answer or a sigh to that letter (as fare I remember), same as to the letter about five-word- or four-word-lines in the epos some weeks ago, and of course nobody is going to feedback the last one (about pronunciation) or this here. grusz, hansz Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/ravenn/met12-1.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
