Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Hi :) At one place i work, a charity, they have been able to buy legit copies of MSO 2010 for £20 rather than the usual approx £100. Word is unable to handle making the Newsletter and LibreOffice can do it with much more finesse but even though i have installed LibreOffice on their machines they prefer to work with Word and it's glossy new ribbon. On the older machines MSO 2007 was desperately slow. Opening a document requires taking a tea-break or falling asleep. LibreOffice just opens stuff before even drumming fingers once. They seem to think that if the proper price is £100 than it must be a lot better than something that is free despite the evidence. Regards from Tom :) --- On Wed, 19/10/11, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: From: webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org Date: Wednesday, 19 October, 2011, 1:11 There is only one person that I know/met/talked-with locally, for sure that uses Linux and it is maybe 3 for Mac. Everyone else is a Windows person. Every one of them that I have a relationship with, I have done my best to get them to try LO. Only one I did not push, since he had several large personal Access databases built with MSO 97. [Pentium II computer] When I gave him a free P-III computer, I had to find a copy of MSO, since he lost his copy I gave him all those years ago, since I went to MSO 2003. He just could not deal with using LO for his database files, for now. When I find him a free P-4 machine with enough spare drive space, I will have both MSO and LO on that system for him to use. So, he is the only one of all the Windows users that told me that they would not give LO [OOo before January] a try. Many of these people have dumped MSO entirely, while others use MSO when OOo/LO does not work properly for them, and only a few are only using MSO at this time. So I know if we can get the software in their hands, install it for them if we must, they will give it a try. I just wish I could get the local schools to include LO, but they have these big budget MSO contracts that they cannot get out of. Also since everyone is using MSO then they have to teach on that package. Well the parents, students, and anyone else who has to buy MSO at their high prices [who do not need to deal with Access] would be happy to find a package that does what they need and saves the files in MSO file formats for the teachers, that is free and is becoming better and better every few months. The problem is how to get the word out to the masses. With my stroked-out brain, I am not a public speaker. If I was, I would hire the lecture hall at the main branch of the Library system to do a demonstration of LO and hand out free copies. Then have an ad in every library board and every free posting place [respectable ones] to give the date, time, etc.. The problem is I am no longer able to talk my talk anymore. I could barely do it before my last stroke, and I did one on Web page creation for personal use. I sure could use some ideas to get the local users of MSO to know about our free alternative. On 10/18/2011 06:03 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: On 10/18/11 6:51 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users. We already reach covermount CDs in several countries, and we should add editors in all countries. People can help in building a mailing list by sending us email address of editorial staff of magazines with a CD (the address is usually printed somewhere on the editorial staff page). It would be nice if we somehow could get some banner ad time on Google, or other place that people go to often. I do not deal with the social networks, but there has to be some way we can get the word out to the Windows users. Addressing Windows users take more time than Linux and MacOS. Downloads are slowly increasing, and this show the increasing interest of users. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
An small addition I would like to make. Libreoffice needs some way of easy updating for Windows users, because users of this OS tend to do very bad maintaining of the software. The lack of a standarized packaging management system makes this a lot more sensitive than other platforms. I don't understand about Mac platforms or others, but probably some of them have similar issues. Apple's App Store can solve it, but I suspect they are going to ban competition of FOSS software versus their software (VLC is an example of this). Microsoft is doing the same for the app store of Windows Phone too as they explicitly banned the GPLv3 license. If users are motivated to use an up to date Libreoffice when having Internet connection, this would make new features and improvements more spreaded. Of course this is an issue on computers without Internet. So this gives us to another related topic The Document Foundation must be very smartly strategic at it: Propietary software platforms are getting less free and more controlled in an orwellian style. The future is forbidding the installation of software by users and limit the contents by using strong DRM related to Trusted Computing stuff. On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) At one place i work, a charity, they have been able to buy legit copies of MSO 2010 for £20 rather than the usual approx £100. Word is unable to handle making the Newsletter and LibreOffice can do it with much more finesse but even though i have installed LibreOffice on their machines they prefer to work with Word and it's glossy new ribbon. On the older machines MSO 2007 was desperately slow. Opening a document requires taking a tea-break or falling asleep. LibreOffice just opens stuff before even drumming fingers once. They seem to think that if the proper price is £100 than it must be a lot better than something that is free despite the evidence. Regards from Tom :) --- On Wed, 19/10/11, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: From: webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org Date: Wednesday, 19 October, 2011, 1:11 There is only one person that I know/met/talked-with locally, for sure that uses Linux and it is maybe 3 for Mac. Everyone else is a Windows person. Every one of them that I have a relationship with, I have done my best to get them to try LO. Only one I did not push, since he had several large personal Access databases built with MSO 97. [Pentium II computer] When I gave him a free P-III computer, I had to find a copy of MSO, since he lost his copy I gave him all those years ago, since I went to MSO 2003. He just could not deal with using LO for his database files, for now. When I find him a free P-4 machine with enough spare drive space, I will have both MSO and LO on that system for him to use. So, he is the only one of all the Windows users that told me that they would not give LO [OOo before January] a try. Many of these people have dumped MSO entirely, while others use MSO when OOo/LO does not work properly for them, and only a few are only using MSO at this time. So I know if we can get the software in their hands, install it for them if we must, they will give it a try. I just wish I could get the local schools to include LO, but they have these big budget MSO contracts that they cannot get out of. Also since everyone is using MSO then they have to teach on that package. Well the parents, students, and anyone else who has to buy MSO at their high prices [who do not need to deal with Access] would be happy to find a package that does what they need and saves the files in MSO file formats for the teachers, that is free and is becoming better and better every few months. The problem is how to get the word out to the masses. With my stroked-out brain, I am not a public speaker. If I was, I would hire the lecture hall at the main branch of the Library system to do a demonstration of LO and hand out free copies. Then have an ad in every library board and every free posting place [respectable ones] to give the date, time, etc.. The problem is I am no longer able to talk my talk anymore. I could barely do it before my last stroke, and I did one on Web page creation for personal use. I sure could use some ideas to get the local users of MSO to know about our free alternative. On 10/18/2011 06:03 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: On 10/18/11 6:51 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Hello, 2011/10/17 webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com The big thing about The Apache Way is they want to own the code our volunteers have worked on for the past year. I wonder how many of these people are willing to hand over their copyrights? I don't think you have to hand over your copyrights at ASF; but the licence allows anyone to take your contribution and turn it into proprietary software. Also, since there is a move to replace Java coding with Python coding as the code base is cleaned out of unneeded and bad coding. Does that mean that Apache's OOo project will not be able to us the code LO people create, even if they will allow the code owners to keep their copyrights? There are two different questions, here, one about copyrights and the other one about language. On copyright and licence the situation is clear: At Apache you can't reuse our code legally as their licence does not allow it. One contributor here would have to specifically relicence its code back into Apache to make that work. When it comes to language it's somewhat different. I understand that the two codebases are growing more and more different and it is a wrong idea to think that now, in the last quarter of 2011, you can just plug out and plug in code chunks from and to each of the suites. By the way, AOO has not yet been released anyway. What happens to all the open-source code that was part of OOo before it was converted to The Apache Way? The hallowed parts went to the Cloud, the damned ones went to Azure :p More seriously: I don't really understand your question. Part of the OOo code was not under the Oracle copyright and this code cannot be relicensed, therefore they (Apache) have to rewrite all of these parts. Since they seems to say that all that code no longer is owned by those who wrote it, but now are the propriety of Apache? Will it be still allowed for LO to use that code base, Yes in theory, but keep in mind the two codebases are diverging. until we modify it with the Python and other new coding standards LO are working towards? I do not like the idea that a company could take open-source copyrighted code by others, and state that they now owe the code and the copyrights to it. But what really happened in this specific case was that contributors to the Openoffice.org project (the real one, the one that's gone now) were to submit their copyrighted assignements to Sun, then when Sun got bought it was acquired by Oracle, and now Oracle has agreed to transfer it over to the Apache Software Foundation and based on their licensing regime other players can reuse it to make proprietary software. Now if you personally don't feel comfortable with the terms of the Apache licence I would hint that you are precisely in the right project (LibreOffice) :-) . The software listed in the linked article, that are Apache products touted to be successful with The Apache Way, are once I never heard of. I use to look for every free software out there for Windows users. Most of the software listed is not enduser software, actually. In fact it is interesting to note that Apache does not develop end-user software, and Apache OpenOffice would be their first one. I still do some times. I never heard of these in all my searches, so their success is something that I cannot agree with. You search for free software and LO comes up many places. Those I never found. Best, Charles. On 10/17/2011 11:17 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Glyn was invited in Paris at the Libreoffice conference, and here's his article: http://blogs.computerworlduk.**com/open-enterprise/2011/10/** libreoffice-openofficeorg-and-**open-standard-office-suites/**index.htmhttp://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2011/10/libreoffice-openofficeorg-and-open-standard-office-suites/index.htm Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+help@global.** libreoffice.org marketing%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/**marketing/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 18 October 2011 09:15, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello, 2011/10/17 webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com The big thing about The Apache Way is they want to own the code our volunteers have worked on for the past year. I wonder how many of these people are willing to hand over their copyrights? I don't think you have to hand over your copyrights at ASF; but the licence allows anyone to take your contribution and turn it into proprietary software. Which is a consideration everyone should take seriously. There is a clear philosophical issue there. On the other hand, if you want a standard like .odf to proliferate as widely as possible - a real goal for marketing... Apple has spread the BSD code more than desktop GNU/Linux from all the distros. Also, since there is a move to replace Java coding with Python coding as the code base is cleaned out of unneeded and bad coding. Does that mean that Apache's OOo project will not be able to us the code LO people create, even if they will allow the code owners to keep their copyrights? There are two different questions, here, one about copyrights and the other one about language. On copyright and licence the situation is clear: At Apache you can't reuse our code legally as their licence does not allow it. Well you can re-use the code, but not maintaining a copy left license. One contributor here would have to specifically relicence its code back into Apache to make that work. Only one? I thought it would be several? When it comes to language it's somewhat different. I understand that the two codebases are growing more and more different and it is a wrong idea to think that now, in the last quarter of 2011, you can just plug out and plug in code chunks from and to each of the suites. By the way, AOO has not yet been released anyway. True, still quite a lot to do but with the number of people working on it, it's going to happen at some time. Most of the software listed is not enduser software, actually. In fact it is interesting to note that Apache does not develop end-user software, and Apache OpenOffice would be their first one. But what really matters is the developers working on the project and most of them have experience not only of developing end-user software, but OOo. The Apache structure is quite different from the old OOo organisation so it will take time to optimise in the new environment. The good thing is that it appears to be a lot more flexible so I'd say given time it will be an improvement rather than make things worse from a management point of view. Marketing is a bit of a void at the moment but there is work on that beginning. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 18 October 2011 10:53, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Ian, 2011/10/18 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com I don't think you have to hand over your copyrights at ASF; but the licence allows anyone to take your contribution and turn it into proprietary software. Which is a consideration everyone should take seriously. There is a clear philosophical issue there. On the other hand, if you want a standard like .odf to proliferate as widely as possible - a real goal for marketing... Apple has spread the BSD code more than desktop GNU/Linux from all the distros. Thank you Ian. Please do not take my following comment as a refusal to discuss, but I'd like to keep this marketing list as a list for marketing LibreOffice, and not as a general discussion list (but you can have this discussion on discuss@, of course). I thought it was relevant to marketing since the license is likely to affect proliferation. Of course there is then a tension between philosophy and marketing benefit and the judgement might well be that philosophy is more important. Also I'd say if ASF has a weakness it is that most of their product line has never needed marketing in the same way as an end-user product has. That is where marketing strategies might differ, both because of the license and because of different culture. From an objective point of view communities might learn from each other as to which aspects within their own sets of constraints are most effective. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Here is a marketing question that came from this thread; If we do not capture a large market and following - larger the better - what will happen to LO's market share when AOO comes out and they spend the marketing dollars that LO does not have? For this year, LO was lucky. Without OOo producing a package after 3.3.0, LO started to get OOo people looking for a package that is continuing to update its package. I truly wonder how many OOo users LO got because OOo was no longer issuing updates. When AOO comes out, how many will switch back? Then there is the question on how do we keep our users instead of them going back to the original version, not under Apache? Right now, open-source users have an older OOo version and the much more developed LO package. LO is the only way to go is you want to use the best MS Office compatibility. That was a major issue with the older OOo. That is currently LO's biggest feature with our marketing, besides the price. LO now can read/write .docx documents [and the other formats] better than any other free alternative that I know of. If you do not have a MS document/spreadsheet/etc. filled with complex micros, you can use LO with all your old MSO documents and create all of your new ones as well. This seems to work with everything but Access [so I have read in these lists]. LO needs to gain marketing shares and do such a good job at explaining why people and businesses should use our product, when AOO comes out, we will have a market share that is very happy with out product and will not be too willing to try AOO. When it finally does come out, we need to make sure our package is still the better one. All of the initial articles stating that LO 3.3.0 was much better than OOo 3.3.0 went to our favor. Now we do not need to have articles saying AOO is now better than LO. So ramp up marketing to get more loyal users ramp up services to keep them loyal When AOO comes out, we need to be the better product by a big margin. They can send a lot of cash with marketing, while LO cannot. We to keep growing and marketing at every event and show available. We to get the public to back out package to the point that they will not go to a big company's version. Now the work really begins. On 10/18/2011 06:03 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: On 18 October 2011 10:53, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Ian, 2011/10/18 Ian Lynchianrly...@gmail.com I don't think you have to hand over your copyrights at ASF; but the licence allows anyone to take your contribution and turn it into proprietary software. Which is a consideration everyone should take seriously. There is a clear philosophical issue there. On the other hand, if you want a standard like .odf to proliferate as widely as possible - a real goal for marketing... Apple has spread the BSD code more than desktop GNU/Linux from all the distros. Thank you Ian. Please do not take my following comment as a refusal to discuss, but I'd like to keep this marketing list as a list for marketing LibreOffice, and not as a general discussion list (but you can have this discussion on discuss@, of course). I thought it was relevant to marketing since the license is likely to affect proliferation. Of course there is then a tension between philosophy and marketing benefit and the judgement might well be that philosophy is more important. Also I'd say if ASF has a weakness it is that most of their product line has never needed marketing in the same way as an end-user product has. That is where marketing strategies might differ, both because of the license and because of different culture. From an objective point of view communities might learn from each other as to which aspects within their own sets of constraints are most effective. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 18 October 2011 12:53, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: Here is a marketing question that came from this thread; If we do not capture a large market and following - larger the better - what will happen to LO's market share when AOO comes out and they spend the marketing dollars that LO does not have? Why do you think AOO has a large marketing budget? I don't know but I doubt it has at present. For this year, LO was lucky. Without OOo producing a package after 3.3.0, LO started to get OOo people looking for a package that is continuing to update its package. I truly wonder how many OOo users LO got because OOo was no longer issuing updates. When AOO comes out, how many will switch back? Probably depends on the distribution channels. LibO has the advantage on Linux of being packaged by default eg with Ubuntu. I bet a lot of OOo users are still on whatever they first downloaded on Windows. Then there is the question on how do we keep our users instead of them going back to the original version, not under Apache? Right now, open-source users have an older OOo version and the much more developed LO package. LO is the only way to go is you want to use the best MS Office compatibility. That was a major issue with the older OOo. That is currently LO's biggest feature with our marketing, besides the price. LO now can read/write .docx documents [and the other formats] better than any other free alternative that I know of. If you do not have a MS document/spreadsheet/etc. filled with complex micros, you can use LO with all your old MSO documents and create all of your new ones as well. This seems to work with everything but Access [so I have read in these lists]. From a marketing point of view the issue is how many end-users know this? Ok, geeks might but probably only those with a specific interest in desktop office products. Probably brand name is more important in terms of numbers and that is something in OpenOffice.org's favour but not necessarily Apache Office or whatever ASF decide to call it. Anything other than OpenOffice.org runs the risk of reducing the brand effect. LO needs to gain marketing shares and do such a good job at explaining why people and businesses should use our product, when AOO comes out, we will have a market share that is very happy with out product and will not be too willing to try AOO. When it finally does come out, we need to make sure our package is still the better one. All of the initial articles stating that LO 3.3.0 was much better than OOo 3.3.0 went to our favor. Now we do not need to have articles saying AOO is now better than LO. I should think distribution factors are probably more important. Unless you have a very good education strategy for end users I doubt many will get past which is personally easier for them to install. So ramp up marketing to get more loyal users ramp up services to keep them loyal When AOO comes out, we need to be the better product by a big margin. They can send a lot of cash with marketing, while LO cannot. We to keep growing and marketing at every event and show available. We to get the public to back out package to the point that they will not go to a big company's version. Now the work really begins. In terms of the cost of a global marketing campaign, I doubt ASF has significantly more to spend that TDF, even if it was 10 times as much it would still have little impact unless there was some killer way of presenting things. Strategy to generate marketing funds is at this point probably more important than any small amounts of mney either project has at present. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 10/18/2011 01:53 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: If we do not capture a large market and following - larger the better - what will happen to LO's market share when AOO comes out and they spend the marketing dollars that LO does not have? AOOo will not have a specific marketing budget, although it might benefit from the media activity of ASF (which is mostly focusing on Apache brand and analysts relations). So far, TDF has had a better media exposure than AOOo, and this is totally independent from money. By the way, we already know what we will do in term of marketing when AOOo binaries will be released (something that will happen in Spring 2012). For this year, LO was lucky. Without OOo producing a package after 3.3.0, LO started to get OOo people looking for a package that is continuing to update its package. I truly wonder how many OOo users LO got because OOo was no longer issuing updates. When AOO comes out, how many will switch back? I don't think that we were lucky, but that we have done a better marketing job. By the way, the number of Windows users who have switched to LO is negligible so far. LO needs to gain marketing shares and do such a good job at explaining why people and businesses should use our product, when AOO comes out, we will have a market share that is very happy with out product and will not be too willing to try AOO. When it finally does come out, we need to make sure our package is still the better one. All of the initial articles stating that LO 3.3.0 was much better than OOo 3.3.0 went to our favor. Now we do not need to have articles saying AOO is now better than LO. We always need positive articles. When AOO comes out, we need to be the better product by a big margin. They can send a lot of cash with marketing, while LO cannot. We to keep growing and marketing at every event and show available. We to get the public to back out package to the point that they will not go to a big company's version. Now the work really begins. Again, AOOo won't have a marketing budget. They are starting to build a marketing group now, and we'll follow closely the development in order to anticipate their actions. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Hi, Le Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:53:55 -0400, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com a écrit : Here is a marketing question that came from this thread; If we do not capture a large market and following - larger the better - what will happen to LO's market share when AOO comes out and they spend the marketing dollars that LO does not have? For this year, LO was lucky. Without OOo producing a package after 3.3.0, LO started to get OOo people looking for a package that is continuing to update its package. I truly wonder how many OOo users LO got because OOo was no longer issuing updates. When AOO comes out, how many will switch back? I don't think it will be a switch back. IBM has explained they would contribute large chunks of code in 2012, which means the Apache OpenOffice will become some sort of New Symphony office suite. It will be two different products, so the people will switch based on different factors. Then there is the question on how do we keep our users instead of them going back to the original version, not under Apache? Right now, open-source users have an older OOo version and the much more developed LO package. LO is the only way to go is you want to use the best MS Office compatibility. That was a major issue with the older OOo. That is currently LO's biggest feature with our marketing, besides the price. LO now can read/write .docx documents [and the other formats] better than any other free alternative that I know of. If you do not have a MS document/spreadsheet/etc. filled with complex micros, you can use LO with all your old MSO documents and create all of your new ones as well. This seems to work with everything but Access [so I have read in these lists]. LO needs to gain marketing shares and do such a good job at explaining why people and businesses should use our product, when AOO comes out, we will have a market share that is very happy with out product and will not be too willing to try AOO. When it finally does come out, we need to make sure our package is still the better one. All of the initial articles stating that LO 3.3.0 was much better than OOo 3.3.0 went to our favor. Now we do not need to have articles saying AOO is now better than LO. So ramp up marketing to get more loyal users ramp up services to keep them loyal When AOO comes out, we need to be the better product by a big margin. They can send a lot of cash with marketing, while LO cannot. er... they can't, actually. We to keep growing and marketing at every event and show available. We to get the public to back out package to the point that they will not go to a big company's version. Now the work really begins. I'd say you're making a very good point :-) One thing though: we do have convergence points with AOO/Symphony, one which being ODF, but there can be others. For instance, the Apache Foundation seems to have release policies that would make it perhaps hard to release binaries. In which case, it would be up to someone else (IBM?) to release an actual product. In this case AOO as it is would not be a direct competitor. But this needs to be thought through. best, Charles. On 10/18/2011 06:03 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: On 18 October 2011 10:53, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Ian, 2011/10/18 Ian Lynchianrly...@gmail.com I don't think you have to hand over your copyrights at ASF; but the licence allows anyone to take your contribution and turn it into proprietary software. Which is a consideration everyone should take seriously. There is a clear philosophical issue there. On the other hand, if you want a standard like .odf to proliferate as widely as possible - a real goal for marketing... Apple has spread the BSD code more than desktop GNU/Linux from all the distros. Thank you Ian. Please do not take my following comment as a refusal to discuss, but I'd like to keep this marketing list as a list for marketing LibreOffice, and not as a general discussion list (but you can have this discussion on discuss@, of course). I thought it was relevant to marketing since the license is likely to affect proliferation. Of course there is then a tension between philosophy and marketing benefit and the judgement might well be that philosophy is more important. Also I'd say if ASF has a weakness it is that most of their product line has never needed marketing in the same way as an end-user product has. That is where marketing strategies might differ, both because of the license and because of different culture. From an objective point of view communities might learn from each other as to which aspects within their own sets of constraints are most effective. -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems?
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Well Apache could pull out some marketing money for somewhere. It is a big name to those in the IT industry. So, there might be some ways for them to raise money for their office product. I know that LO has some big name companies behind it, so if it is a name game, we have some good ones, as far as I remember. For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users. EVERY Windows machine I deal with, I tell their owners about LO and if they have an older copy of MSO [pre-2007] then I let them know that LO will deal with those MSO files that their version cannot. I tell them that I dropped MSO years ago and still work with its files very well. Plus the cost is free. It would be nice if we somehow could get some banner ad time on Google, or other place that people go to often. I do not deal with the social networks, but there has to be some way we can get the word out to the Windows users. I wonder if could get more of the localized computer stores [not chains maybe] who would give the software away or install it on every system they sell. A lot of the mom and pop stores do not sell MSO, due to the up front costs to them. Give it to them free, maybe a number of discs, and see what happens. I do not go into these stores much since if I need something, I order it online where I can get it cheaper. But if I need something today I have gone in to buy once in a blue moon. So somehow we need to get the Windows users. Go after those who cannot afford to buy MSO every time a new one comes out, or when they need an office package for their kids at home or at college. On 10/18/2011 08:46 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Ten times nothing. Hmm, let me do the math[s] here, is nothing and nothing Quote from Jayne in Firefly Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 18/10/11, Ian Lynchianrly...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ian Lynchianrly...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 18 October, 2011, 13:21 On 18 October 2011 12:53, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: Here is a marketing question that came from this thread; If we do not capture a large market and following - larger the better - what will happen to LO's market share when AOO comes out and they spend the marketing dollars that LO does not have? snip / In terms of the cost of a global marketing campaign, I doubt ASF has significantly more to spend that TDF, even if it was 10 times as much it would still have little impact unless there was some killer way of presenting things. snip / -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 18 October 2011 17:51, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: Well Apache could pull out some marketing money for somewhere. It is a big name to those in the IT industry. So, there might be some ways for them to raise money for their office product. Probably more likely that someone outside ASF would do it given the way ASF works. You can't fund raise for particular projects in the current ASF system, they encourage people to do that sort of thing outside whether through companies or voluntarily. But my view is that it would be best to treat such things as a bonus if it happens and concentrate on fundraising that promotes products without such dependency. I know that LO has some big name companies behind it, so if it is a name game, we have some good ones, as far as I remember. For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users. EVERY Windows machine I deal with, I tell their owners about LO and if they have an older copy of MSO [pre-2007] then I let them know that LO will deal with those MSO files that their version cannot. I tell them that I dropped MSO years ago and still work with its files very well. Plus the cost is free. It would be nice if we somehow could get some banner ad time on Google, or other place that people go to often. I do not deal with the social networks, but there has to be some way we can get the word out to the Windows users. I wonder if could get more of the localized computer stores [not chains maybe] who would give the software away or install it on every system they sell. A lot of the mom and pop stores do not sell MSO, due to the up front costs to them. Give it to them free, maybe a number of discs, and see what happens. I do not go into these stores much since if I need something, I order it online where I can get it cheaper. But if I need something today I have gone in to buy once in a blue moon. So somehow we need to get the Windows users. Go after those who cannot afford to buy MSO every time a new one comes out, or when they need an office package for their kids at home or at college. This rather reminds me of the marketing discussions over the last 10 years with OpenOffice.org. All of these things are desirable but it seems inordinately difficult to get much real traction from them. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from trying,just making an observation based on the evidence from the past. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
On 10/18/11 6:51 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users. We already reach covermount CDs in several countries, and we should add editors in all countries. People can help in building a mailing list by sending us email address of editorial staff of magazines with a CD (the address is usually printed somewhere on the editorial staff page). It would be nice if we somehow could get some banner ad time on Google, or other place that people go to often. I do not deal with the social networks, but there has to be some way we can get the word out to the Windows users. Addressing Windows users take more time than Linux and MacOS. Downloads are slowly increasing, and this show the increasing interest of users. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
There is only one person that I know/met/talked-with locally, for sure that uses Linux and it is maybe 3 for Mac. Everyone else is a Windows person. Every one of them that I have a relationship with, I have done my best to get them to try LO. Only one I did not push, since he had several large personal Access databases built with MSO 97. [Pentium II computer] When I gave him a free P-III computer, I had to find a copy of MSO, since he lost his copy I gave him all those years ago, since I went to MSO 2003. He just could not deal with using LO for his database files, for now. When I find him a free P-4 machine with enough spare drive space, I will have both MSO and LO on that system for him to use. So, he is the only one of all the Windows users that told me that they would not give LO [OOo before January] a try. Many of these people have dumped MSO entirely, while others use MSO when OOo/LO does not work properly for them, and only a few are only using MSO at this time. So I know if we can get the software in their hands, install it for them if we must, they will give it a try. I just wish I could get the local schools to include LO, but they have these big budget MSO contracts that they cannot get out of. Also since everyone is using MSO then they have to teach on that package. Well the parents, students, and anyone else who has to buy MSO at their high prices [who do not need to deal with Access] would be happy to find a package that does what they need and saves the files in MSO file formats for the teachers, that is free and is becoming better and better every few months. The problem is how to get the word out to the masses. With my stroked-out brain, I am not a public speaker. If I was, I would hire the lecture hall at the main branch of the Library system to do a demonstration of LO and hand out free copies. Then have an ad in every library board and every free posting place [respectable ones] to give the date, time, etc.. The problem is I am no longer able to talk my talk anymore. I could barely do it before my last stroke, and I did one on Web page creation for personal use. I sure could use some ideas to get the local users of MSO to know about our free alternative. On 10/18/2011 06:03 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: On 10/18/11 6:51 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions wrote: For Windows users, we need to find some way to get into shows and such to convince these users to use LO. If we can somehow get some of these Tech magazines to include LO in one of their included CD/DVD of software that seems to come out every so often, we might pick up a few [or many] users. We already reach covermount CDs in several countries, and we should add editors in all countries. People can help in building a mailing list by sending us email address of editorial staff of magazines with a CD (the address is usually printed somewhere on the editorial staff page). It would be nice if we somehow could get some banner ad time on Google, or other place that people go to often. I do not deal with the social networks, but there has to be some way we can get the word out to the Windows users. Addressing Windows users take more time than Linux and MacOS. Downloads are slowly increasing, and this show the increasing interest of users. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Glyn was invited in Paris at the Libreoffice conference, and here's his article: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2011/10/libreoffice-openofficeorg-and-open-standard-office-suites/index.htm Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
The big thing about The Apache Way is they want to own the code our volunteers have worked on for the past year. I wonder how many of these people are willing to hand over their copyrights? Also, since there is a move to replace Java coding with Python coding as the code base is cleaned out of unneeded and bad coding. Does that mean that Apache's OOo project will not be able to us the code LO people create, even if they will allow the code owners to keep their copyrights? What happens to all the open-source code that was part of OOo before it was converted to The Apache Way? Since they seems to say that all that code no longer is owned by those who wrote it, but now are the propriety of Apache? Will it be still allowed for LO to use that code base, until we modify it with the Python and other new coding standards LO are working towards? I do not like the idea that a company could take open-source copyrighted code by others, and state that they now owe the code and the copyrights to it. The software listed in the linked article, that are Apache products touted to be successful with The Apache Way, are once I never heard of. I use to look for every free software out there for Windows users. I still do some times. I never heard of these in all my searches, so their success is something that I cannot agree with. You search for free software and LO comes up many places. Those I never found. On 10/17/2011 11:17 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Glyn was invited in Paris at the Libreoffice conference, and here's his article: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2011/10/libreoffice-openofficeorg-and-open-standard-office-suites/index.htm Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Hello. There's seems to be another issue and is that ASF seems it has been obsessed with Java in an extreme way. They preferred to code their projects in that computer language and has been quite friendly with SUN and IBM, but it seems the relationship got a bit broken in 2010 as they abandoned JCP (Java Community Process) and Apache Harmony (their Java runtime) seems abandoned. I'm not sure if they will glue Java even more on Apache Office or not, but that can be an issue if it happens. Despite the corporate-like ASF PR, there seems to be indicatives of their relationship with IBM and Oracle getting more broken in certain ways (the Apache Harmony were part of the issue). And those were some of their most important promoters in certain ways, so they are weaker than ever. I just hope LibreOffice code gets streamlined without losing functionality, so the project can be lightweight enough to run on low computer processing power platforms (embedded devices and outdated computers). This would mark the difference with most of the competition: rich and robust features on lots of platforms (as most lightweight projects unfortunately are unable mix both in a successful way). About the license way, this is an old war in the Open Source world. This is more complex than it seems, but the results are quite simple. I divide them in two , as this world is binary: - BSD/MIT type licenses benefit private software. Any Open Source license with copyright assignment benefit private software too (with notable exceptions like GPL and FSF), despite being copyleft or not. Examples on the last one is CUPS from Apple. I think lots of corps consider this as the cheap labor way, so they promote it proactively in all possible ways. - Copyleft licenses without copyright assignment benefit the Free Software ecosystem, they promote sharing and modifing without bureaucratic stuff while feeling you don't own your work. Corps needs to adapt their internal cultures to this, or feel friendly externally and do all kind of nasty stuff internally (like Google, until recent Android 3.0 controversy). I consider the license fragmentation even in the copyleft world is a serious problem these days, I think in a large future the patent and copyrights should be abolished or heavily modified to promote knowledge instead of limiting it, but that's a different topic. There's an issue, as both FSF and ASF consider all versions of the Apache License to be only compatible with GPLv3 but incompatible with GPL v1 and v2. I wonder if the Apache License is compatible with LGPLv3, the license of the LO source code. Subversion was quite used as a replacement of CVS in software development, but these days it's getting deprecated by superior technologies known as distributed version control systems or DVCS. Two very successful examples are Git and Mercurial (the first one getting more popular, as being user by giant projects in terms of development complexity like the Linux kernel), getting a very massive adoption not only in the Open Source development but private too. SpamAssassin is a known email spam filter. Competitors include ASSP, DSPAM, Bogofilter and others. This software was quite popular for spam filtering, but competitors have risen lately too. Despite Apache being a Foundation, they work like a standard corporation. Tons of PR stunt, tons of comittees with acronyms, bureaucracy and buzzwords everywhere. They are the few ones that make other non-foss corps very happy, as their ways are very friendly to them (code that can be used in non-open source software, for example). They seem too focused on showing the quantity of projects managed by them constantly, getting proud of it in every press release they publish. Even if their products are quite friendly to private code companies, that's not the big issue here in a pragmatical way. Their products are focused to business and mostly as a framework or foundation to develop final products or solutions (mostly targeted at website and software development) in most of them developed under the Java programing language, so they have ZERO experience on developing end user product solutions and they will need to create the necessary infrastructure from scratch if they want to make it work. Regards. On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:34 PM, webmaster for Kracked Press Productions webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: The big thing about The Apache Way is they want to own the code our volunteers have worked on for the past year. I wonder how many of these people are willing to hand over their copyrights? Also, since there is a move to replace Java coding with Python coding as the code base is cleaned out of unneeded and bad coding. Does that mean that Apache's OOo project will not be able to us the code LO people create, even if they will allow the code owners to keep their copyrights? What happens to all the open-source code that was part of OOo before it was converted to The Apache Way? Since they
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Comments to the article - at their online site - seems to bring out the point that users of OOo had issues with MSO format compatibility [like .docx and .pptx]. It seems that they think that LO has the same issues, when it does not. I worked with Word, Excel, and Power Point files [the ones that are not super complex with heavy micros] and I have very little with compatibility issues. I no longer use MSO and the last one was MSO 2003. Every MSO file I have received in the past 6 months opened 100% using LO. Some of MS's online templates are too complex with micros and such to work 100% but MS does not want non-MS users to be able to use them any more. So, in these articles that talk about OOo and LO together, many times the writer assumes that they both have the same abilities. This is no longer true. OOo has not put out a version in a year and how many releases have LO made since then? 3.3.0 - 3.3.4 and 3.4.0 - 3.4.3. How much improved is LO's code and performance over OOo's version now? So, I wish the writers would try out LO and know about its improvements over OOo BEFORE that call them the same software, but under different ownership. Maybe someone should make a chart with a side-by-side comparison of features/functions of the current LO packages compared to the last OOo package released. Then keep it up as the newer version come out. Then people can see a check-mark chart with many, many check-marks on LO side and not as many on OOo's side. . On 10/17/2011 02:21 PM, timofonic timofonic wrote: Hello. There's seems to be another issue and is that ASF seems it has been obsessed with Java in an extreme way. They preferred to code their projects in that computer language and has been quite friendly with SUN and IBM, but it seems the relationship got a bit broken in 2010 as they abandoned JCP (Java Community Process) and Apache Harmony (their Java runtime) seems abandoned. I'm not sure if they will glue Java even more on Apache Office or not, but that can be an issue if it happens. Despite the corporate-like ASF PR, there seems to be indicatives of their relationship with IBM and Oracle getting more broken in certain ways (the Apache Harmony were part of the issue). And those were some of their most important promoters in certain ways, so they are weaker than ever. I just hope LibreOffice code gets streamlined without losing functionality, so the project can be lightweight enough to run on low computer processing power platforms (embedded devices and outdated computers). This would mark the difference with most of the competition: rich and robust features on lots of platforms (as most lightweight projects unfortunately are unable mix both in a successful way). About the license way, this is an old war in the Open Source world. This is more complex than it seems, but the results are quite simple. I divide them in two , as this world is binary: - BSD/MIT type licenses benefit private software. Any Open Source license with copyright assignment benefit private software too (with notable exceptions like GPL and FSF), despite being copyleft or not. Examples on the last one is CUPS from Apple. I think lots of corps consider this as the cheap labor way, so they promote it proactively in all possible ways. - Copyleft licenses without copyright assignment benefit the Free Software ecosystem, they promote sharing and modifing without bureaucratic stuff while feeling you don't own your work. Corps needs to adapt their internal cultures to this, or feel friendly externally and do all kind of nasty stuff internally (like Google, until recent Android 3.0 controversy). I consider the license fragmentation even in the copyleft world is a serious problem these days, I think in a large future the patent and copyrights should be abolished or heavily modified to promote knowledge instead of limiting it, but that's a different topic. There's an issue, as both FSF and ASF consider all versions of the Apache License to be only compatible with GPLv3 but incompatible with GPL v1 and v2. I wonder if the Apache License is compatible with LGPLv3, the license of the LO source code. Subversion was quite used as a replacement of CVS in software development, but these days it's getting deprecated by superior technologies known as distributed version control systems or DVCS. Two very successful examples are Git and Mercurial (the first one getting more popular, as being user by giant projects in terms of development complexity like the Linux kernel), getting a very massive adoption not only in the Open Source development but private too. SpamAssassin is a known email spam filter. Competitors include ASSP, DSPAM, Bogofilter and others. This software was quite popular for spam filtering, but competitors have risen lately too. Despite Apache being a Foundation, they work like a standard corporation. Tons of PR stunt, tons of comittees with acronyms, bureaucracy and buzzwords everywhere. They
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article
Hi :) Added to the http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_In_The_Press page already. I think that is my fastest update yet. Regards from Tom :) --- On Mon, 17/10/11, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] Glyn Moody's article To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org marketing@global.libreoffice.org Date: Monday, 17 October, 2011, 16:17 Glyn was invited in Paris at the Libreoffice conference, and here's his article: http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2011/10/libreoffice-openofficeorg-and-open-standard-office-suites/index.htm Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
