Support in new WGO structure
Quim, I really like the changes you've made to the new structure plan at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewWgoStructure My only concern is how deep down you've placed Support. I can see that Support is not worth a top-level link, because it's only a page of links to the forums and the mailing list. There's also the matter that most users needing support will probably go to their distro first (eg Ubuntu support pages and forums). Our use cases reflect this accordingly. About-Contact is aiming at someone asking Is gnome well-supported? But should we cover the case I need support with gnome and add something in Get Started? ___ The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Wed, 2006-09-08 at 20:36 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:01:23 +0200 Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I shouldn't be talking about navigation bars yet, but I'll try. This structure could bring us to a nav bar like this: [GNOME logo] Know - Try - Learn - Work - Join - Enjoy! [snip] You may like to consider 'Create' instead of 'Work' -- sounds a little bit more positive I guess. Create sounds better than work. In my opinion these terms should be checked whether they make sense when you add GNOME to the end. For example, Work GNOME doesn't make sense, however Create GNOME does. I also don't like Know for some reason. I think maybe because it sounds like there is some knowledge expected already or I can't quite pin down my dislike for Know. Get to know or Discover would work better, I think. As far as Enjoy! is concerned, I don't think it has a place, or maybe front page is good but a link for it shouldn't exist. Reason: the only time you can really (IMO) enjoy GNOME is when you login with GDM into GNOME :). Therefore Try overlaps with Enjoy, I think. -Gezim -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 01:51 -0600, Gezim Hoxha wrote: On Wed, 2006-09-08 at 11:19 +0100, Joachim Noreiko wrote: snip My draft is just that, a draft, and only part of one at that. I'm trying to think in terms of paths through the site. My scenarios are these: * new to GNOME: about, why choose, tour, screenshots I'm not sure six pack Joe knows what screenshots are. In the OSS world (mostly) we are spoilt with screenshots and personally I usually won't try a product before I see a screenshot of it. So, maybe we could call it Photos or Pictures since screenshots are, well, shots of the screen. What about also Views or Showcase? -Gezim * new users: tour, link to library, link to support forum * general users: resources for gnome: links to: art themes, more software, support, etc * potential developers: not sure about this one * current developers: or this one ___ Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:47:18 -0600 Gezim Hoxha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also don't like Know for some reason. I think maybe because it sounds like there is some knowledge expected already or I can't quite pin down my dislike for Know. Get to know or Discover would work better, I think. Yeah. 'Know' sounds passive, not active: One doesn't really do something. I like 'Discover'! Maybe 'Study' would be a better word than 'Learn': To study something is intensive, concentrated; to learn something is often a forced or required act (You gotta learn this now!) Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
Ok, then. This looks good: [GNOME logo] Discover - Try - Learn - Create - Join I think Learn is in fact better, softer than study. You learn from life. A learning experience sounds positive and exciting. Study is always a conscious action, you don't study by accident. You can learn though just by browsing wgo. Anyway, I guess what counts here is to have the opinion of native English speakers. About the GNOME websites map, I think a one page selection of the mature global and local sites around wgo is appropriate for Discover. We need to explain at this stage that http://www.gnomedesktop.org/ , http://gtk.org/ , http://guadec.org , http://www.gnome-ev.de/ or http://www.gnomefr.org/ are around, connected. The wiki page at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/GnomeSubsites is for internal use and complete listing. Yes, we should point to this websites from their related pages at wgo, but indeed I think it is useful to have them all in a single page under Discover, with a logical structure and a one sentence description for each. Also, can we agree that user Joe not caring much about software nor freedom and with not much time to spend is not a core use case for us? I mean, we will get Joe's but they are not going to step easily from zero to download and try a LiveCD. If they are open to discover or learn we can set big gateways to the GNOME free software pages at Wikipedia and other websites focusing on converting new users. If they just want to grab (Try) some software for free-as-in-beer let's offer them downloadable GNOME products for Windows/Mac - http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/GnomeOnWindows and links to the distros. If they want to discover, learn or try more they will come back, now as predisposed users, and then we will be able to put them in the GNOME mantra. This way we can develop a wgo focused on users interested in software OR freedom OR both, which are our core targets. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 11:27 +0200, Quim Gil wrote: [GNOME logo] Discover - Try - Learn - Create - Join I think Learn is in fact better, softer than study. [snip] Anyway, I guess what counts here is to have the opinion of native English speakers. Hi! John the native English speaker here. I have come to this discussion late and am trawling through the archives to get some context. Forgive me if I say something silly ;-) I really like the idea of using verbs instead of nouns in the navigational structure. I agree that Learn is better than Study. My only concern is that when scanning the possible areas to visit, it is not obvious where to go for help. (I know, I know: Learn.) Also, Learn is a bit too similar to Discover in this context. How about: [GNOME logo] Discover - Try - Ask - Create - Join A pretty weak attempt at something better, I know. I'm hoping to kick off a bit of a brain-storm here. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 22:07 +1200, John Williams wrote: I have come to this discussion late and am trawling through the archives to get some context. Forgive me if I say something silly ;-) Me too.. .. :) I really like the idea of using verbs instead of nouns in the navigational structure. I agree that Learn is better than Study. My only concern is that when scanning the possible areas to visit, it is not obvious where to go for help. (I know, I know: Learn.) Also, Learn is a bit too similar to Discover in this context. I'd like to insert a caveat into this: verbs on their own aren't really much good; as a user I need to know what is being verbed (ie., be able to work it out pretty quickly). The thing that's good about using nouns is that I usually come to a site looking for something: e.g., thinking about my personal usage of the web, when I'm not visiting news sites and the like, I'm on google searching for something, and then going to a site. E.g., documentation for burning cds in gnome or something. Having to transition from a noun-mindset (looking for an object) to a verb-mindset (which action is associated with this thing I'm looking for?) has tripped me up on many websites. How about: [GNOME logo] Discover - Try - Ask - Create - Join For me, 'verb lists' only work when they're actioning the same item. So, Discover GNOME and Try GNOME work quite well and seem ok. Ask GNOME and Create GNOME don't seem to work, so then I need to re-think what Ask and Create is talking about. Try and Ask I'm not at all sure about. I'm not sure if two words are taboo, but Find Help and Get Creative seems better to me. Also - something I know nothing about - do single-word English verbs translate well? I would have thought not, but I don't know. Cheers, Alex. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
I still think Learn is better than Ask. Ask is good to reflect mail/forum/IRC, but shadows documentation. True, from Learn to 'support forums' there is a gap, but I think the meaning is better covered than using Ask. If we find the 'I want to ask something' use case is relevant we can have a 'GNOME FAQ' promo in the homepage linking to the usual sources of questions answers. About nouns vs verbs. Sometimes we look for things (nouns), sometime for actions (verbs). 5 static words will partially fail in all cases, no matter which combination we pick. The navigation bar is not standing alone. In fact it's a strip in a page with other primary focus of attention. The navigation bar needs to be effective in this context. People looking for something specific should find it in the big items of the homepage or in the search box we will provide. If we go for verbs we are inciting an active, moving experience, which is appropriate for the GNOME mantra. If we ask ourselves what is GNOME (in one sentence) we will probably realize that the trend is to define it more as a process than a thing. GNOME moves, and the nav bar verbs help setting the tone and direction of this movement. El dj 10 de 08 del 2006 a les 11:24 +0100, en/na Alex Hudson va escriure: The thing that's good about using nouns is that I usually come to a site looking for something Yes, but chances that your something matches a nav bar term are low. Either if you find Development or Create you need to make an assumption before clicking. I'm on google searching for something, and then going to a site. E.g., documentation for burning cds in gnome or something. Agreed, but this has very little to do with the nav bar. The title of the page is much more important and we won't put Learn as title for the page where we explain how to burn CDs in GNOME. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 13:04 +0200, Quim Gil wrote: I still think Learn is better than Ask. Ask is good to reflect mail/forum/IRC, but shadows documentation. True, from Learn to 'support forums' there is a gap, but I think the meaning is better covered than using Ask. I think Get Help covers all of those better than either Learn or Ask :-) Learn and Discover also overlap the teaching you something new idea space. The thing that's good about using nouns is that I usually come to a site looking for something Yes, but chances that your something matches a nav bar term are low. Either if you find Development or Create you need to make an assumption before clicking. Personally, I think if the probability the nav bar helps me find what I'm looking for, then it's basically failed as a piece of UI. I mean, that is the whole point of it, isn't it - finding specific things? Otherwise, we effectively force people to search (either using the search function, or manually clicking through pages) to find stuff, and I know that personally drives me up the wall. It just strikes me that attempting to distill the website taxonomy into a set of single-word verbs should be a lower priority than coming up with a navigation set which really helps people find stuff on the site. It would be great to come up with a list of key tasks that new users and old should be able to perform on the site, and test which setups work best. E.g., for me, finding a tour of the latest release of GNOME would be, as would accessing a web support forum. The marketing-ness of the nav bar should really be a secondary concern, imho. Cheers, Alex. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 17:01 +0200, Quim Gil wrote: [GNOME logo] Know - Try - Learn - Work - Join - Enjoy! Know = About Try = Download Learn = Support Work = Development Join = Community Enjoy! = the Fresh show candy page suggested at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewWgoStructure#head-484f1ea943440d3b57cdc54bcc63752c285c03ac If we have to explain even to ourselves what these buzzwords mean, how do we expect the visitors to understand it? :) IMHO one word links in the banner won't work too well. They are fine for application menus, since the top-level entries are more-or-less standardized, and generally people are expected to learn it when using the app anyway. We cannot expect our visitors to learn wgo... I suggest to use small phrases, to make things less ambiguous. This not only concerns translations, we are still debating the subtleties of know, learn, ask, discover... :) Nouns vs verbs and searching. Links seem inherently active, so better suited for verbs. Links are there for you to activate them. However, search engines usually factor in the link labels while indexing, calling for keywords--search nouns. So again, small phrases seem better because they are more descriptive and can contain both nouns and verbs... If we stick with really short labels we can still use the title attribute on the links, which in most browsers display as tool tips, and afaik some search engines actually look at it. On a more brainstorming side of things, we could come up with icons for each grand section to put up with the banner links, maybe use some subtle coloring scheme differences to designate these sections in the banner (similarly how the banner background varies from gnomey site to site). Then, on the front page we could feature these sections with the title, (a bigger) icon, color scheme and a short inviting description to click there. Greg -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
WGO structure
I've finished work on condensing the different drafts, and following some feedback from Quim, it's on the wiki: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewWgoStructure Note that the top-level section titles are not necessarily the navigation bar link phrases. I was thinking in terms of URLs rather than links. Eg, Discover has been suggested for the About GNOME set of pages. ___ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
El dj 10 de 08 del 2006 a les 15:17 +0200, en/na Gergely Nagy va escriure: Know = About Try = Download If we have to explain even to ourselves what these buzzwords mean, how do we expect the visitors to understand it? :) Hey Flanagan :) I wasn't explaining. Claus had asked for improvements taking the old proposed structure as a reference, I was just identifying the new suggested labels with the labels of the first level structure. I suggest to use small phrases Sure. Come up with a better nav bar. :) I mean, let's try to improve the terms we have with new terms. This topic will be much easier to discuss once we have an agreed site structure with all the pages, homepage and second pages mockups and CMS to prototipe with. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: WGO structure
Hi, On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:55:51 +0100 (BST) Joachim Noreiko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've finished work on condensing the different drafts, and following some feedback from Quim, it's on the wiki: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewWgoStructure We cannot do it like this, IHMO. The structure lacks a portal for third-party developers: This is GNOME's most important product. The desktop has no real selling points unless lots of third-party dev's use the dev. platform. (Example: If you spend 90% of your time in OpenOffice, hunting OK buttons, you don't mind much about the usability of some dialogs that you use once a year!) We don't need a whole portal for contributors. Contributors cannot be convinced by a few web pages. They grow slowly into helping. And most of them are hardcore enthusiasts and geeks, anyway, so they can deal with live.gnome.org as a portal for contributors. Additionally, the sub-projects change their policy so often that wgo would be outdated almost always. Next, I'm not quite sure whether it makes sense to sort gnomefiles and art.gnome site by site to the LiveCD, the release notes, and the sources. I'd probably be not very happy about the location if I'd be the maintainer of one of these sites. However: Since I'm not ... ;-) We really need to remove the contributors section and move the old development section back in. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: WGO structure
--- Claus Schwarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The structure lacks a portal for third-party developers: This is GNOME's most important product. The desktop has no real selling points unless lots of third-party dev's use the dev. platform. Fair enough. Could you add something to the plan for this? It's completely outside my experiences, so I have no idea what is needed. We don't need a whole portal for contributors. Contributors cannot be convinced by a few web pages. They grow slowly into helping. And most of them are hardcore enthusiasts and geeks, anyway, so they can deal with live.gnome.org as a portal for contributors. I can live with that. But something has to be done about live.g.o's ugliness. Would you then mention contributing on the community page? Next, I'm not quite sure whether it makes sense to sort gnomefiles and art.gnome site by site to the LiveCD, the release notes, and the sources. I wasn't sure about that either Quim persuaded me. Where would you put the links to those sites? I had a top-level section for 'cool things to do with your gnome', but the only things I could think of were art and gnomefiles... which doesn't make very many things. ___ All new Yahoo! Mail The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use. - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
wgo structure
--- Claus Schwarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong. I think most points of the former proposal are valid and should be kept in the current wgo revamp. See http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewWgoStructure , I'm asking for selecting and merging. Why don't you work together with Joachim to get an updated version? No offense meant to Joachim but the differences in his proposal that I find useful can easily be merged back into the old one. Some other points might be worth to be discussed; for example, removing 'Foundation' out of the top navigation -- no idea what other think about it. Some of his points I find, ehm, strange. ;-) Again, no offense meant! None taken :) My draft is just that, a draft, and only part of one at that. I'm trying to think in terms of paths through the site. My scenarios are these: * new to GNOME: about, why choose, tour, screenshots * new users: tour, link to library, link to support forum * general users: resources for gnome: links to: art themes, more software, support, etc * potential developers: not sure about this one * current developers: or this one ___ Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/trueswitch2.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo structure
On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:19:18 +0100 (BST) Joachim Noreiko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: None taken :) Thanks. :-) I'm trying to think in terms of paths through the site. My scenarios are these: * new to GNOME: about, why choose, tour, screenshots * new users: tour, link to library, link to support forum * general users: resources for gnome: links to: art themes, more software, support, etc * potential developers: not sure about this one * current developers: or this one Cool! I also used a path model: 1. New visitors probably want to know more about this thing called GNOME. 'About' has the why, the tour, comments from others, an introduction to products, etc. -- a sales folder for the general public. 2. Then, you may want GNOME: 'Download' has links to the LiveCD, to distributions, release notes, etc. I also thought about calling it 'Install'. 3. Then, you may need help: 'Support' has all the links. 4. Then, you may want to get more active: 'Community' has the links. 5. Then, you may want to contribute or start your own thing: 'Development' introduces live.gnome.org and library.gnome.org, and provides pointers for third-party developers. (I also thought about calling it 'Technology' but Thos rejected it.) 6. Then, you may want to know more about GNOME's legal aspects: 'Foundation' has it. Theoretically, this could be moved elsewhere but there's a lot of content, so moving it would probably break a three-level navigation. 7. In some rare moments, you need to contact GNOME: Click 'contact' and you get a snail mail adress, and some pointers to special interest sections (press, etc.). In other words: The most important sections are first, the less important sections are last. The section names are hopefully concrete enought so visitors will get an initial idea, but not *that* concrete so we're still able to handel additional stuff. For example, you mentioned 'webmaster' in your draft: that could go into 'Contact'. You mentioned 'Certification': that could go into development. A sitemap link as mentioned by Quim could go into the footer -- it's a usual place for sitemap links. I admit 'Support' and 'Community' is a little bit fuzzy but we may point to commerical support companies one day. The navigation is usually just two levels deep, with about 8 pages or sections each. There are just some exceptions like the tour, and the release notes, and some foundation stuff, maybe, that makes a third level necessary. Overall, I think, the layout is sufficient. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
