[Marxism] Venezuela launches 'SOS Palestine' campaign
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro has launched an “SOS Palestine” campaign to demand an end to Israel’s ongoing bombardment of Palestine’s Gaza strip, Venezuela Analysis http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10788 said on July 12. “Enough already, I’ve joined the campaign,” he told supporters during a televised broadcast. “#SOS Palestina, let’s launch it.” https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56898 -- “Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man Under Socialism “The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Israeli police ransack Tariq Abu Khdeir family home in apparent revenge raid, arrest uncle and cousins
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/relatives-apparent-revenge.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: RT “Covers” the Shooting Down of MH17 | The Interpreter
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In the morning, as their video showed the smoking wreckage of MH17, RT repeatedly aired two sound clips from two interviews: one with an anonymous witness who off-handedly claimed that he saw the SAM launched from a Ukrainian army position, and another with an anonymous Russian military expert who asserted that the Ukrainian military must have downed the plane. The expert based this conclusion not on any particular knowledge of the facts concerning the shoot-down, but on his assessment of the Ukrainian military as being “inept”. These two clips were repeatedly played on Thursday morning, at least once every 15 minutes. full: http://www.interpretermag.com/rt-covers-the-shooting-down-of-mh17/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Russia Today Correspondent Resigns Over Coverage Of Ukrainian Plane Crash
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == While many journalists are attracted to Russia Today by healthy salaries and the prospect of a secure job, Firth said there was a belief there that you could stay “within the system and fight against the bad forces”. She insists she never lied in any of her reports but became concerned about the airtime given to her journalism and was concerned that her reports were “lending credibility” to the channel’s other output. She alleges she was pulled out of Syria by channel bosses the day after filing a report highlighting the suffering of civilians in areas opposed to the Assad regime, which is backed by Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin. Firth said she had immense respect for her “talented” colleagues and said the vast majority of journalists at the channel were working hard to tell the truth, but that the management “ignore that and push the rubbish”. full: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/russia-today-correspondent-resigns-over-coverage-of-ukranian Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: The Infowar Rages in Moscow
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The night of the disaster, a certain Carlos, presenting himself as a Spanish air traffic controller working in Kiev, began Tweeting in Spanish that Ukrainian jets, rather than separatists on the ground, had shot down the passenger plane. Russian media took the bait: Spanish dispatcher: Two Ukrainian warplanes were near the Boeing before its disappearance, read the headline on the Kremlin's most propagandistic news outlet, Russia Today. Several major news outlets also picked up the story with similar headlines, including state channel Rossiya 24, the Defense Ministry's Zvezda channel, and popular newspapers like Komsomolskaya Pravda and Rossiiskaya Gazeta, the official mouthpiece of the Russian government. Others even speculated that Ukrainian forces had been trying to shoot down the Russian presidential jet, which supposedly had crossed paths with MH17 earlier that day. Between news broadcasts, Rossiya 24 added fuel to the fire by airing a segment about Siberian Air Flight 1812, which Ukraine admitted was accidentally shot down by its fighter jets over the Black Sea in 2001. full: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Shakespeare, Prisoner of the British Empire » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 18 July 2014 14:03, Shane Mage via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: This is as totally idiotic as the claim that a British Empire existed in 1590. Agreed. This is a genuinely terrible article. Exhibits a spectacular inability to place Shakespeare's works in the context of time place, and thereby recognise the extent of their forward-thinking content. Solidarity, Seb Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who's who?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/19/14 8:29 AM, Levins, Richard wrote: For those of us who have not been parties to the complex evolution of Trotskyist thinking, references to leaders of currents are not useful, and even for known leaders it is not obvious what ideas of Zinoviev are being trashed by casual deviation dropping. Please don¹t keep things an in-group debate. Zinovievism is a term I coined about 15 years ago to describe the adoption of a schematic Leninism at the 1924 Comintern Congress as a way of tightening up the Communist movement against an opposition that had been forming in response to major setbacks in Germany. My problem is not with Zinoviev's politics, although much can be said about that, but about his organizational concepts that form the basis of most vanguard parties today. I deal with all this here: http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/organization/comintern_and_germany.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] ISIS Forces Last Iraqi Christians to Flee Mosul
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times, July 19 2014 ISIS Forces Last Iraqi Christians to Flee Mosul By ALISSA J. RUBIN BAGHDAD — By 1 p.m. on Friday almost every Christian in Mosul had heard the Sunni militants’ message — they had until noon Saturday to leave the city. Men, women and children piled into neighbors’ cars, some begged for rides to the city limits and hoped to get taxis to the nearest Christian villages. They took nothing more than the clothes on their backs, according to several who were reached late Friday. The order from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria came after Christians decided not to attend a meeting that ISIS had arranged for Thursday night to discuss their status. “We were so afraid to go,” said Duraid Hikmat, an expert on minorities who had done research for years in Mosul. He fled two weeks ago to Al Qosh, a largely Christian town barely an hour away, but his extended family left on Friday. Friday’s edict, however, was probably the real end. While a few scattered souls may find a way to stay in secret, the community will be gone. A YouTube video shows ISIS taking sledgehammers to the tomb of Jonah, something that was also confirmed by Mr. Hikmat. The militants also removed the cross from St. Ephrem’s Cathedral, the seat of the Syriac Orthodox archdiocese in Mosul, and put up the black ISIS flag in its place. They also destroyed a statue of the Virgin Mary, according to Ghazwan Ilyas, the head of the Chaldean Culture Society in Mosul, who spoke by telephone on Thursday from Mosul but seemed to have left on Friday. “They did not destroy the churches, but they killed us when they removed the cross, this is death for us,” he said. Christians are among several minorities who are being systematically expelled or killed by ISIS, according to a United Nations report on civilian casualties in Iraq released on Friday. Among them are Yazidis, a tiny sect that has survived for centuries and whose theology fuses elements of Islam, Christianity and Zoroastrianism; Shabaks, who are often described as Shiites whose language is close to Persian and who take beliefs from different traditions; and Shiite Turkmen. The Yazidis and the Shabaks are being persecuted in the Sinjar area west of Mosul, according to the United Nations and interviews with members of both communities. The United Nations has documented scores of abductions and killings as well as the destruction of shrines. The United Nations report noted that extrajudicial killings had also been carried out by Iraqi security forces and allied militias, and warned that the executions on both sides might constitute war crimes. At least 1,531 civilians were killed in June alone, bringing the civilian death toll in the first half of the year to a minimum of 5,576, according to the joint report by the United Nations human rights office in Geneva and the United Nations mission in Iraq. More than 600,000 people were driven from their homes during June alone, doubling the number of internally displaced people in Iraq to more than 1.2 million, the report added. For the Christians displaced from Mosul, sudden departure has meant a series of treks — first to nearby Christian villages like Bartella and Hamdaniya, already badly overcrowded, then to Kurdistan, a semiautonomous region of Iraq where there is more tolerance for Christians. As the Christians leave Mosul, ISIS has painted the Arabic letter that means “Nasrani,” from Nazrene, a word often used to refer to Christians, on their homes. Next to the letter, in black, are the words: “Property of the Islamic State of Iraq.” The militants have also told Muslims who rent property from Christians that they no longer need to pay rent, said a businessman who rents from a Christian. The landlord now lives in Lebanon. Many Christians interviewed expressed a sense of utter abandonment and desolation as well as a recognition that the sound of church bells mingled with the Muslim calls to prayer, the ultimate symbol of Mosul’s tolerance, would likely never be heard again. “We are not thinking of going back to Mosul, we have left homes with our memories,” said Omar who had just arrived in Bartella and did not give his surname. “It is a sad time for Christians.” Omar Al-Jawoshy contributed reporting from Baghdad, and a New York Times employee from Mosul. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Hundreds in Detroit Protest Over Move to Shut Off Water
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times, July 19 2014 Hundreds in Detroit Protest Over Move to Shut Off Water By MARY M. CHAPMAN DETROIT — At least 300 demonstrators marched through downtown streets on Friday, protesting a move by the city’s Water Department to force tens of thousands of delinquent customers to pay up or face a cutoff in service. From the Cobo Center to Hart Plaza on the banks of the Detroit River, protesters chanted, “Fight, fight; water is a human right.” Others carried placards that read “Thirsty for Justice.” The Detroit Water and Sewerage Department began cracking down on accounts in March. The number of delinquencies swelled over the winter when the department, fearing frozen pipes, continued to provide service to customers with past due accounts. From March to June 30, the department interrupted service to 15,200 customers, said Greg Eno, a department spokesman. About 92,000 customers are at risk of having service cut off, meaning they are at least 60 days past due or more than $150 behind. In a statement released on Friday, however, Kevyn D. Orr, the city’s emergency manager, said that of the accounts where water was suspended, more than half were made current within 24 hours, and service was restored. He said that assistance was available for customers with “demonstrated financial need.” In March, about half the department’s customers, including businesses, had outstanding balances, amounting to $118 million in charges, the department said. One protester, Valerie Blakely, said a truck with “Detroit Water Collections Project” lettered on its side stopped by her house on Monday. She said that she kept workers from disconnecting her service, but that they turned off the water to nearly every house on her block. “I told them they weren’t shutting mine off today, and put my foot over the access point,” said Ms. Blakely, who lives in Detroit with her husband and four children. She said she fell behind while trying to keep her house warm during one of the worst winters in Michigan history. Ms. Blakely, who owes about $1,000 on her water bill, said her neighbors are up in arms. “They were all out in the street, not knowing what to do, not knowing how they were going to cook,” she said. Tyrone Travis, a former General Motors autoworker who owns his home, said he, too, faced service interruption because of a $700 bill. “I’m on a fixed income like a lot of Detroiters, and by the time I get through buying medicine, gas and a little food, I just don’t have it,” he said. Rome Adams works for Go Detroit, a community organization that is helping to get bottled water to affected residents. “This morning I went to one block and some people across the street who saw me with water came running out of their houses to see if I could give them some,” he said. “I’ve lived in Detroit my whole life,” Mr. Adams said. “I’ve never seen anything like this.” Mr. Eno declined to comment on the rally, but said the number of customers who had made arrangements to avoid a loss of service rose to 17,000 through June from 11,000 in February. “This is what we’ve wanted,” he said. People are getting the message.” The step up in shut-offs has riled many residents in a city that filed for bankruptcy protection a year ago and is seeking revenue where it can. On Tuesday, Steven W. Rhodes, the federal bankruptcy judge handling the case, said the city’s enforcement program was damaging Detroit’s reputation and called on the city to better address the issue. Mr. Orr defended the department’s efforts, saying customers could make arrangements to pay. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] UConn to Pay $1.3 Million to End Suit on Rape Cases
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == NY Times, July 19 2014 UConn to Pay $1.3 Million to End Suit on Rape Cases By TATIANA SCHLOSSBERG The University of Connecticut will pay $1.28 million to settle a lawsuit filed by five students who charged that the university had treated their claims of sexual assault and harassment with indifference, the two sides announced on Friday in a joint statement. One of the complainants, Silvana Moccia, a former hockey player at the university, will receive $900,000. Ms. Moccia charged that she was cut from the hockey team after reporting her rape to her coach. She joined the lawsuit in December, a month after it was filed by the other four women, who will receive payments ranging from $25,000 to $125,000. The university continues to deny any wrongdoing and defends its policies of responding to instances of sexual misconduct, but it decided to settle the lawsuit because “no good would have come from dragging this out for years as it consumed the time, attention and resources — both financial and emotional — of everyone involved,” Lawrence D. McHugh, the chairman of the university’s board of trustees, said in a statement. In a news conference on Friday, Gloria Allred, the plaintiffs’ counsel, said the settlement was in the best interest of her clients and of the university. “We hope that other victims of sexual assault will hear about the positive results in our case involving UConn and be inspired and encouraged to report instances of sexual violence and assault,” Ms. Allred said, adding, “Title IX is there for their protection, and other universities should follow the law and UConn’s example.” The lawsuit sought damages for discrimination based on gender and retaliation in violation of Title IX, which guarantees equal education opportunities to students regardless of gender. The plaintiffs sued the university for unspecified monetary damages and changes in the university’s treatment of allegations of sexual violence and harassment. In addition to the lawsuit, four of the plaintiffs and three other women filed a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights at the United States Department of Education. That investigation will continue, although the four plaintiffs have withdrawn their complaint to the government. The women maintain that they do not hold the university responsible for any of the sexual misconduct, but that they found fault with the way their cases had been dealt with by members of the university’s staff. One of the complainants, Kylie Angell, said in the complaint that she was told by a female campus police officer, “Women have to just stop spreading their legs like peanut butter,” or rape will “keep on happening till the cows come home.” The women said they had been discouraged from reporting sexual attacks to the police or had not been adequately informed of their legal options. None of the men accused in the complaint faced criminal charges. One accused rapist was expelled, but his expulsion was appealed and he was permitted back on campus. The university said it had expelled 27 students since 2005 for sexual misconduct, including 15 in the last five years. The settlement includes changes to university policy for dealing with allegations of sexual assault, including a revised training program for management-level employees in dealing with sexual harassment and sexual violence; the creation of a position of assistant dean of students for victim support services; and the formation of a special victims unit within the university’s police department with officers trained in responding to sexual violence. “The lawsuit may have been settled, but the issue of sexual assault on college campuses has not been,” Susan Herbst, the president of the university, said in a statement. “Our hearts go out to all victims of sexual violence. The university has taken positive, important steps in the battle against sexual assault in recent years, which are described in the joint statement, but there is still more to be done.” One of the complainants, Rosemary Richi, will be returning to campus this fall for her senior year. In a statement delivered at the news conference, she said she was optimistic that the steps taken in the settlement would make a difference for other victims of sexual assault. “I will never forget where we came from and how we got here, but I am so proud of how far we’ve come,” she said. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: SBU releases more conversations implicating Russia in shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight (VIDEO, TRANSCRIPT)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-releases-more-conversations-implicating-russia-in-shooting-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-video-transcript-2-356778.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is so pathetic, I heard commercial air planes had flown that route many times a day before this shoot down. In any case they knew as well the government that Putin forces had weapons that could shoot them down if they flew within 60km of East Ukraine, So if you're going to blame Ukraine, you also have to blame MH, KLM, and all other carriers who continued to use this route. Or you can use normal logic and blame those who shot down the plane. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Detroit and the end of the Second Reconstruction
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == New Post: Detroit and the end of the Second Reconstruction http://rustbeltradical.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/detroit-and-the-end-of-the-second-reconstruction/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 07/19/2014 11:59 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is so pathetic, I heard commercial air planes had flown that route many times a day before this shoot down. In any case they knew as well the government that Putin forces had weapons that could shoot them down if they flew within 60km of East Ukraine, So if you're going to blame Ukraine, you also have to blame MH, KLM, and all other carriers who continued to use this route. Or you can use normal logic and blame those who shot down the plane. You got that right, KLM, MH and all other airlines who continued to fly passenger planes over a war zone do share part of the blame. Along with a government that criminally permits civilian air traffic over a war zone, even after previously declaring that the said airspace is closed. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == -Original Message- From: Clay Claiborne via Marxism I heard commercial air planes had flown that route many times a day before this shoot down. In any case they knew as well the government that Putin forces had weapons that could shoot them down if they flew within 60km of East Ukraine, So if you're going to blame Ukraine, you also have to blame MH, KLM, and all other carriers who continued to use this route. Or you can use normal logic and blame those who shot down the plane. . In this case I agree with Shane and others. It simply has nothing to do with whose side you're on the Ukraine (I can't see that either side is worth dying for, but that's irrelevant). If a government is using aerial bombardment of cities and population centres then the people below are entitled to defend themselves using anti-aircraft guns, just as the Vietnamese did, just as you and I would like the FSA to be able to do to resist Assad's aerial genocide, except that the US does everything in its power to block this elementary right to self-defense to the Syrians (and, of course, to the Palestinians). So of course we can, to some extent, blame those who shot down the plane in as much as they were obviously not very careful and the result was a horrific mistake. But you can't really blame people getting bombed from the sky for trying to shoot down the planes that bomb them. If you do, then you have to agree with the shabby and transparently dishonest excuse the US gives for blocking Manpads to the FSA for years - that jihadists might get them and use them to shoot down passenger planes. Obviously I'd like to see Syrian rebel-land flooded with Manpads, and for regional Arab states to defy the US diktat on this, so that tons of Baathist warplanes could be made to fall out of the sky. But if I took a flight in that direction, I'd check that it wasn't flying over Syria. And if either the Syrian regime gave clearance to passenger planes to fly over, or any miserly airline capitalists flew their planes over Syria rather than paying a few dollars to re-route, and a rebel anti-aircraft gun accidentally hit a passenger plane, then the regime and the airline company definitely would be responsible. The Ukraine regime's Anti-Terrorist Operation air war is of course less a thousandth of the unlimited Baathist air war in Syria in intensity and bloodiness, but at the end of the day all air war is a war crime by definition. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ukraine can certainly be criticized for restricting, not closing, the airspace, but note that their restrictions were the same as those imposed by Russia (two days later), which borders the dangerous area. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/downing-of-plane-exposes-defe cts-of-flight-precautions-over-ukraine.html ...The downing of the passenger plane over eastern Ukraine on Thursday occurred shortly after the authorities in Russia and Ukraine, reacting to dangers presented by the conflict around the city of Donetsk, Ukraine, closed air space up to 32,000 feet along the passenger jet's planned route. Ukraine made the changes on Monday, the same day a Ukrainian AN-26 military cargo plane was destroyed by a missile while flying at 21,000 feet. Russia followed with similar restrictions effective at midnight on Wednesday, hours before Flight 17 took off from Amsterdam. The decision by government officials to restrict the airspace, rather than close it completely, raised unanswered questions. -Original Message- From: Marxism [mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Shane Mage via Marxism Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:26 PM To: Steve Shalom Subject: Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So just answer this on behalf of your principal: Why did you authorize civilian aircraft to fly, over a war zone in which your air force was conducting offensive military operations, at an altitude at which your military aviation was operating? What, in normal logic, is your excuse, however pathetic? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What? Blame those who shot down the plane? What a silly notion! They are anti-fascist heroes defending the peoples' motherland from White Guard gnats and Trotskyite wreckers in their Imperialist coup-mongering Black Flag aircraft. Nothing can be the fault of the anti-fascist heroes. T -Original Message- From: Michael Karadjis via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jul 19, 2014 1:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == -Original Message- From: Clay Claiborne via Marxism I heard commercial air planes had flown that route many times a day before this shoot down. In any case they knew as well the government that Putin forces had weapons that could shoot them down if they flew within 60km of East Ukraine, So if you're going to blame Ukraine, you also have to blame MH, KLM, and all other carriers who continued to use this route. Or you can use normal logic and blame those who shot down the plane. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 03:28 20-07-14 +1000, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: So of course we can, to some extent, blame those who shot down the plane in as much as they were obviously not very careful Well it's more like they didn't even know the meaning of careful in this context. Those sorts of forces receiving such a weapon is like giving matches and gasoline to a 4 year old: no one would be surprised if a fire were thereby started. Weapons of this sort are normally controlled by major militaries who also have radar, communications and transponder electronics, and commercial flight information, so this doesn't happen. Until now. . But you can't really blame people getting bombed from the sky for trying to shoot down the planes that bomb them. If you do, then you have to agree with the shabby and transparently dishonest excuse the US gives for blocking Manpads to the FSA for years - that jihadists might get them But those have a much shorter range. I don't study military matters, but from what I understand bombing is normally done from low altitudes in order to increase target accuracy, against which the shoulder fired missiles would be effective, and actually more portable. The separatists who fired that missile surely did not think they were protecting themselves from a bomber. The American concern for misuse of those portable missiles has to do with them being used closer to an airport where passenger planes are flying low. And anyway, I'm not particularly keen to see ISIS obtain them (though I'll concede they'd have a right to shoot at planes bombing them). But if ISIS were to obtain these BUK missiles? Whoa. Also, I do not think commercial airplane routes are determined the least bit by the countries which they fly through. Except in the particular cases of states which refuse overflight permission (as Ukraine did for flying below 10km). So you can blame the commercial aviation industry, I guess, except what they did was normal: balanced the conservation of fuel (costs) against what they perceived as a very small risk. As everyone had perceived it, until then. - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == hundreds of commercial airplanes fly over Iraq every day. Hindsight is always 20/20 so now after the shoot down of MH 17, everybody, especially Putin apologists, want to know why Malaysia air was allowed to fly there in the first place. Shane Mage even has the absolute gall to begin this thread with the claim that because Ukraine gave international civilian aircraft the right to cross Ukraine about 32,000 ft., if they so chose, that, and I quote! Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder. Here's a News Flash Shane: Major air carriers and air traffic organizations track conflict zones as well as weather patterns and they hope every country will open their airspace to transit by international civilian traffic, and that's how they schedule the routes. They all know the risks and they should have known that Putin was putting BUKs in the hands of thugs like Igor Bezler, still they have to fly somewhere. The short answer is that its a bad world out there and as a result commercial aircraft overfly war zones all the time and generally speaking because of the very high attitude of these flights, they are safe. According to the a href= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-why-planes-fly-over-warzones-9615967.html;Independent/a, before the loss of MH17, flights over east Ukraine where restricted only below 32,000 ft - Flight Level 320. MH17 was assigned FL330 - 33,000 ft. Because MH 17 was cruising at 10 km, it was in no danger from MANPADS. They can't reach that high. The Ukrainian AN-26 can't fly that high either. Only the Ukrainian IL-76 military transport, with a ceiling of 13km could have been seen were the Boeing 777 was. It is not a bomber and the Ukrainians haven't been conducting air attacks from 10km so the argument that shooting down a plane at 10km [ which require very special and expensive missiles ] was necessary air defense is weak. But once you've justified the killing of 40 Ukrainian soldiers and a crew of 9 flying over Ukraine in a Ukrainian air force transport by pro-Russian separatists who apparently can go operational with extremely advanced crew served anti-aircraft weapons systems, and who are also backed by Russian armor and air power. So yes, once you've learned to justify Russian imperialist military aggression in the Ukraine with reference to what I want the FSA to have for self-defense against that aggression in Syria, I guess all things are possible. But please remember, I have never advocated supplying the FSA with weapons that could take out aircraft cruising at 10km. The range of a MANPADS, about 4.5km will do nicely. Thank You. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] FW: Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ukraine can certainly be criticized for restricting, not closing, the airspace, but note that their restrictions were the same as those imposed by Russia (two days later), which borders the dangerous area. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/downing-of-plane-exposes-def e http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/downing-of-plane-exposes-defe cts-of-flight-precautions-over-ukraine.html ...The downing of the passenger plane over eastern Ukraine on Thursday occurred shortly after the authorities in Russia and Ukraine, reacting to dangers presented by the conflict around the city of Donetsk, Ukraine, closed air space up to 32,000 feet along the passenger jet's planned route. Ukraine made the changes on Monday, the same day a Ukrainian AN-26 military cargo plane was destroyed by a missile while flying at 21,000 feet. Russia followed with similar restrictions effective at midnight on Wednesday, hours before Flight 17 took off from Amsterdam. The decision by government officials to restrict the airspace, rather than close it completely, raised unanswered questions. == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So just answer this on behalf of your principal: Why did you authorize civilian aircraft to fly, over a war zone in which your air force was conducting offensive military operations, at an altitude at which your military aviation was operating? What, in normal logic, is your excuse, however pathetic? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Workers World Party says US neocons inspired downing of Flight MH17
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Workers World Party today is blamimg U.S. neoconservative puppet masters who pull Kiev's strings for the downing of the passenger plane over Ukraine. We also believe that the popular resistance forces in southeast Ukraine do not control weapons capable of shooting down a plane flying at that altitude, nor do they have any interest in shooting down a civilian airliner from Malaysia. Only U.S. and EU imperialism can gain and are trying to gain by exploiting the incident and using it against Russia. http://www.workers.org/articles/2014/07/19/malaysian-airline-crash-u-s-eu-blame/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Rebel Leader: Malaysia Plane Filled with Already Dead Bodies
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So funny. This is the same argument Mother Agnes made about Ghouta, that the dead children were Alawites trucked in. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/rebel-leader-malaysia-plane-filled-with-already-dead-bodies Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Rebel Leader: Malaysia Plane Filled with Already Dead Bodies
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I remember reading somewhere that Iran Air 655, blown out of the sky by the US Navy, was also filled with 290 dead bodies before take off. On Jul 19, 2014 5:20 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == So funny. This is the same argument Mother Agnes made about Ghouta, that the dead children were Alawites trucked in. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/rebel-leader-malaysia- plane-filled-with-already-dead-bodies Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/ options/marxism/phrontizein%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Anti-Israel protesters rally across France, defying ban imposed after synagogue clash - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606036 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Last of Warsaw Ghetto Survivors Calls for Rebellion Against Israeli Occupation Tikun-Olam Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/09/last-of-warsaw-ghetto-survivors-calls-for-rebellion-against-israeli-occupation/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Anti-Israel protesters rally across France, defying ban imposed after synagogue clash - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == At 19:03 19-07-14 -0400, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606036 This is really great news. The French government (namely Hollande) had issued a ban against anti-Israel demonstrations today (in democratic France). The NPA called on people to defy the ban, and many thousands in Paris, Marseille and other cities came out, with street battles against the police and over 40 arrested. Good photo coverage in The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tear-gas-fired-at-propalestinians-demonstrators-in-paris-9616751.html - Jeff Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is anybody home at the Socialist Alliance in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/19/14 7:49 PM, glparramatta via Marxism wrote: Louis N. Proyect, Socialist Alliance did not have a formal position until June, which is what you were told prior to it being adopted. Members justifiably have avoided responding to your abusive troll-like snipes since then and it seems we did not feel the need to specifically inform you of its adoption (but I do remember it being mentioned in a Marxmail post some weeks back). No need to get snippy with me, young man. It remains a fact that there is no doubt a range of opinions in Socialst Alliance on the question (but I doubt many back the far-right, pro-imperialist Kiev regime, or call for the escalation of its war on the people of the east). How very interesting. It also remains the fact that every word, detail and nuance of articles that appear in Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal (http://links.org.au/taxonomy/term/187) are not necessarily the line of Socialist Alliance, as you like to accuse. Okay, whatever. Now when one of you blokes can finally answer Richard Fidler's question, I'll send you a big donation for your next fund-drive. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's Rush to Judgement as to Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know was disproved by an assortment of conspiracy theories, as a cautionary tale against jumping to conclusions about Putin and MH 17. http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/ Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
