Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Chris wrote, "If you can build a big socialist party while having nothing to do with the Democrats, that will be great." Experience poses us a different question. People have been trying to build a socialist movement by springboarding off the Democratic party . . . well, the Owenites started almost as soon as there was a Democratic party. The real question is when did any of those efforts actually work? When did we ever build a big socialist party while working through the Democrats? Or even a teensy socialist party? We have already seen the kind of "movement" we can build through the Democrats, and we don't have to go back to the Locofocos . . . or any further back than very recent years. We watched the Democratic party and its adherents dead end the very promising Occupy movement. They sidetracked Black Lives Matter from small but spirited demonstrations into a kind of philanthropic NGO useful for making moral appeals in cable news interviews. And it sent home those massive wonderfully angry women's marches that greeted the Trump presidency. The mechanism of demobilizing people is the most well-practiced In or out of electoral politics, the movement we need has to understand the only reliable source of its own power and to function accordingly. I would add that experience also tells us that the discussion around the predictably doomed Sanders campaign has no practical point other than pave the way for the equally predictable arguments why everybody has to vote for Joe Biden. Cheers, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I can think of lots of things more worthy of our time and efforts than waging a losing fight over the future of the superfluous politics of the Democratic party. How about vital fights over environmental issues? What about the latest moves to revive the old U.S. practice of Indian Removal? How about making something like Black Lives Matter actually matter? Or perhaps solidarity work with organizing drives among the new layers of the working class, which impertinently haven't waited for the official bodies of the labor movement or the next convention discussion of the socialist grouplets? But, if I had to think of something less worthy of our time and efforts, it would probably be the struggle to establish the respectability of the term "socialist" by redefining it as the struggle to save capitalism 80 years ago. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I am well aware of the problems with Obamacare. I am not taking a position on what socialists in the US should do. If you can build a big socialist party while having nothing to do with the Democrats, that will be great. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Louis Proyect via Marxism Sent: Monday, 6 April 2020 9:17:24 AM To: Chris Slee Cc: Louis Proyect Subject: Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/5/20 5:47 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: > He also popularised critiques of some aspects of US capitalism (e.g. its > health care system), and popularised some progressive demands. > > Chris Slee Its health care system? You mean the one that Mitt Romney implemented in Massachusetts that was first proposed by the ultra-right Heritage Foundation? Chris, I told you a month or so ago that I don't stick my nose in Australian politics except to point out that Scott Morrison is a total pig but how could you not be aware of what Obamacare was about? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/5/20 5:47 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: He also popularised critiques of some aspects of US capitalism (e.g. its health care system), and popularised some progressive demands. Chris Slee Its health care system? You mean the one that Mitt Romney implemented in Massachusetts that was first proposed by the ultra-right Heritage Foundation? Chris, I told you a month or so ago that I don't stick my nose in Australian politics except to point out that Scott Morrison is a total pig but how could you not be aware of what Obamacare was about? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * He also popularised critiques of some aspects of US capitalism (e.g. its health care system), and popularised some progressive demands. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of John Edmundson via Marxism Sent: Monday, 6 April 2020 7:04:39 AM To: Chris Slee Cc: John Edmundson Subject: Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do think a Sanders legacy will be the readmittance of the word socialism as a positive into US political language, even though he isn't an actual socialist. Cheers, John On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 7:48 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 4/5/20 3:16 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote: > > The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what > socialism is, have been brought to millions > > by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns - > Not by these sectarians. > > Odd. Sanders made a speech equating socialism with FDR's New Deal. So > maybe the idea is to resurrect the word communism. Or maybe ask the > Sandernistas to call themselves Democratic Capitalist Socialists. Or > better yet, take any books you own by Karl Marx and burn them. > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/johnedmundson4%40gmail.com > -- The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from the goose _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Another interesting question --- Is Cuomo style National Economic Planning going to explode the ridiculous ideological triumph of the "magic of the market"??? --- will there be a groundswell of demands for forcible command and control allocation of "important resources" as Cuomo is doing with medical equipment AMONG SUPPOSEDLY "INDEPENDENT" HOSPITALS?> I mean by standards of "freedom" what he's ding should be completely forbidden yet there he is --- and American President's have similar rights --- it's just Trump doesn't want to do it (and if he tried he's be so concerned to direct resources to his cronies it would do more harm than good!) Cuomo runs a big enough state that it might work out --- Don't know if Newsom in California has taken as much control as Cuomo has. As Cuomo's model becomes more popular, there should be a groundswell of demands that the Federal Government do for the COUNTRY what Cuomo is trying to do for NY > > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do think a Sanders legacy will be the readmittance of the word socialism as a positive into US political language, even though he isn't an actual socialist. Cheers, John On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 7:48 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 4/5/20 3:16 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote: > > The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what > socialism is, have been brought to millions > > by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns - > Not by these sectarians. > > Odd. Sanders made a speech equating socialism with FDR's New Deal. So > maybe the idea is to resurrect the word communism. Or maybe ask the > Sandernistas to call themselves Democratic Capitalist Socialists. Or > better yet, take any books you own by Karl Marx and burn them. > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/johnedmundson4%40gmail.com > -- The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from the goose _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/5/20 3:16 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote: The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what socialism is, have been brought to millions by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns - Not by these sectarians. Odd. Sanders made a speech equating socialism with FDR's New Deal. So maybe the idea is to resurrect the word communism. Or maybe ask the Sandernistas to call themselves Democratic Capitalist Socialists. Or better yet, take any books you own by Karl Marx and burn them. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * According to this voice of the proletarians, those in the left who support the Bernie Sanders for President Campaign, hold responsibility for how parts of the British working class did not vote for the Labour Party in that general election and supported the Tories and were responsible for Starmer being the current favorite of those smaller numbers, selecting that party's leader. The actual truth is that the word: socialist and the concepts of what socialism is, have been brought to millions by both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns - Not by these sectarians. Everyone who supports Bernie Sanders, understands that the U. S. undemocratic party is controlled and reliant on corporate interests and the politicians are servants to the capitalists. What this writer shares, is revealing the deep sectarian unreality he and it appears this groups political line reveals. Both the 2016 and 2020 Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns, has raised more Class Awareness than all the sectarian left elections held in the past hundred years, since the actual great labor leader Eugene Debs. This writer as with all these sectarian cult like thinkers, refuse to recognize reality. Their basic argumentis that the U. S. Working Class must support their leadership, as the only way to make real change, is just not recognizing the real conditions that exist. And what would make this cult thinking group excited would be to double their membership, to promote their leadership and especially their leaders. They seek power for their group and not for the actual working class, they claim to represent. Many as myself have political differences with Bernie Sanders, but to suggest that the Bernie Sanders Campaign has not been effective in raising Class Awareness and been a positive important expression of the advanced layers of the U. S. working class - is being in denial, based on sectarian cult like thinking. Bernie Sanders decision to run for U.S. president, has benefited the U. S. working class and the advanced layers in it. Unlike this writer, Bernie Sanders has spent his life, as an advocate for working people needs and rights. I have disagreed with Bernie Sanders on many issues and likely will in the future, but his campaign has created a desperately needed advance for what was a sectarian ineffective aging left. The advanced layers of the working class can hopefully learn and take advantage of both Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaigns and not go in the defeatist direction of these sectarians. Their voices are being ignored, as reflecting sectarian unreality, when what is needed is to address reality and the challenges for the working class coming to power and not some small sectarian group that only seeks power for themselves. Religious cult like thinking should be rejected, in favor of socialist thinking on how to empower the working class. - Jeremy Corbyn’s tenure as leader of the Labour Party came to an end with the election of Sir Keir Starmer. Starmer is an establishment figure who easily defeated his Corbynist opponent. This development shows the failure of Corbyn’s strategy and holds a warning for the U.S. left in regards to Bernie Sanders. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Corbynism Lost, Sandersism is Losing: Why Working Within Capitalist Parties Fails | Left Voice
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Jeremy Corbyn’s tenure as leader of the Labour Party came to an end with the election of Sir Keir Starmer. Starmer is an establishment figure who easily defeated his Corbynist opponent. This development shows the failure of Corbyn’s strategy and holds a warning for the U.S. left in regards to Bernie Sanders. https://www.leftvoice.org/corbynism-lost-sandersism-is-losing-why-working-within-capitalist-parties-fails _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
