Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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I am not sure but that the capitalist class generally has not lost whatever
was left of its spine . . . and vision.

But I utterly and entirely repudiate the grotesque and dishonest attempt of
the journalistic-academic complex to fob off the terrible decisions of the
class it protects on "populism," the working class, etc.   They do this
with Trump.  They did it with McCarthyism.  They also did it when
historically addressing institutional racism.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The Brexit vote (“leave”) was in fact the right vote for the British working 
class, as Richard Tuck explains:

>. —CGE


> On Jan 23, 2018, at 2:18 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the first place, the Democrats did not "lose their spine". They simply
> represent their class - the capitalist class. The fact that they
> historically have done so in a different way from the Republicans - by
> drawing in potential independent forces, especially working class forces -
> doesn't change this in the slightest.
> 
> In the second place, I think this study makes the classic mistake of
> assuming that association means causality. In other words, just because a
> handful of mid-Western states suffered an unusually high rate of casualties
> in recent and ongoing wars and that these states voted for Trump doesn't
> mean that the one caused the other. I think there is a much more likely
> cause:
> 
> Because of the drying up of industrial jobs, these states have suffered a
> high rate of unemployment and poverty. This has been the cause of higher
> enlistment rates in the US military as well as the cause (in a twisted way)
> of the vote for Trump. I'd propose an associated factor: The destruction of
> the industrial working class has had a disastrous effect on the
> consciousness of those former industrial workers and their families. It's
> been a process similar to the destruction of the coal mining industry in
> Britain, which destruction decimated the class consciousness and led to the
> Brexit vote.
> 
> John Reimann
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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In the first place, the Democrats did not "lose their spine". They simply
represent their class - the capitalist class. The fact that they
historically have done so in a different way from the Republicans - by
drawing in potential independent forces, especially working class forces -
doesn't change this in the slightest.

In the second place, I think this study makes the classic mistake of
assuming that association means causality. In other words, just because a
handful of mid-Western states suffered an unusually high rate of casualties
in recent and ongoing wars and that these states voted for Trump doesn't
mean that the one caused the other. I think there is a much more likely
cause:

Because of the drying up of industrial jobs, these states have suffered a
high rate of unemployment and poverty. This has been the cause of higher
enlistment rates in the US military as well as the cause (in a twisted way)
of the vote for Trump. I'd propose an associated factor: The destruction of
the industrial working class has had a disastrous effect on the
consciousness of those former industrial workers and their families. It's
been a process similar to the destruction of the coal mining industry in
Britain, which destruction decimated the class consciousness and led to the
Brexit vote.

John Reimann

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Assata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/23/18 8:10 AM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:

First link that came to hand. The study is

“Battlefield Casualties and Ballot Box Defeat: Did the Bush-Obama Wars Cost 
Clinton the White House?” by Francis Shen, associate professor at the 
University of Minnesota Law School, and Dougas Kriner, a political science 
professor at Boston University.


Carl, you are not speaking to kindergartners here. We get how Trump 
corralled some votes from uninformed people by ragging on Clinton's 
speeches to Goldman-Sachs. The operating assumption here is that the 
two-party system is a con game, especially if you are old enough to 
remember the 1964 election.


Unfortunately, you are one of those leftists who got googly-eyed over 
Trump in the same way that people like Carl Davidson got taken in by 
Obama in 2007. The whole thing was a fraud. Both of these shits--Trump 
and Clinton--were ready to feed at Goldman Sachs's trough. I knew this 
early on before Obama got elected in 2008:


https://louisproyect.org/2008/01/09/obamas-economic-advisers/

And I also had Trump pegged 12 months ago:

https://louisproyect.org/2017/01/22/wilbur-ross-the-dubious-savior-of-the-steel-industry/


The idea is to be ahead of the curve unless you enjoy striking out.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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First link that came to hand. The study is 

“Battlefield Casualties and Ballot Box Defeat: Did the Bush-Obama Wars Cost 
Clinton the White House?” by Francis Shen, associate professor at the 
University of Minnesota Law School, and Dougas Kriner, a political science 
professor at Boston University.


> On Jan 23, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 1/23/18 8:04 AM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> What (some) people heard were attacks on the neocon (more war) and 
>> neoliberal (more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton administration: 
>> e.g.,
>> .
> 
> Don't forget to scrub your behind with anti-bacterial soap after visiting 
> Zero Hedge.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/23/18 8:04 AM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
What (some) people heard were attacks on the neocon (more war) and 
neoliberal (more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton 
administration: e.g.,


.


Don't forget to scrub your behind with anti-bacterial soap after 
visiting Zero Hedge.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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What (some) people heard were attacks on the neocon (more war) and neoliberal 
(more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton administration: e.g., 

>.

 
> On Jan 23, 2018, at 6:47 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> On 1/23/18 7:39 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> Trump, almost by accident, expressed the real cause: exploitation. He was 
>> the first major party presidential candidate to to attack - however 
>> incoherently - the neoliberal (and neocon) policies that characterized all 
>> administrations from Carter's on.
> 
> Carl, this is utter nonsense. Trump's entire career was based on neoliberal 
> tenets and especially the use of super-exploited undocuemtned workers.
> 
> He was no different from Obama who was elected by running "incoherently" 
> against Hillary Clinton's neoliberalism in the 2007 primary.
> 
> To understand what politicians stand for as opposed to campaign rhetoric, you 
> have to dig deeper. I learned that lesson after voting for the "peace 
> candidate" in 1964.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/23/18 7:39 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:


Trump, almost by accident, expressed the real cause: exploitation. He was the 
first major party presidential candidate to to attack - however incoherently - 
the neoliberal (and neocon) policies that characterized all administrations 
from Carter's on.


Carl, this is utter nonsense. Trump's entire career was based on 
neoliberal tenets and especially the use of super-exploited undocuemtned 
workers.


He was no different from Obama who was elected by running "incoherently" 
against Hillary Clinton's neoliberalism in the 2007 primary.


To understand what politicians stand for as opposed to campaign 
rhetoric, you have to dig deeper. I learned that lesson after voting for 
the "peace candidate" in 1964.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The Congressional Democrats posturing around the 'Dreamers' and government 
shutdown are running a zombie Clinton campaign.

After 40 years of growing and accelerating inequality in America, the HRC 
campaign tried to build a majority by pretending that social distress was the 
result of discrimination.

Trump, almost by accident, expressed the real cause: exploitation. He was the 
first major party presidential candidate to to attack - however incoherently - 
the neoliberal (and neocon) policies that characterized all administrations 
from Carter's on.

How right he was, is demonstrated by the furious reaction of the political 
establishment - which has had the effect of insuring that the Trump 
administration continues the neolib and neocon policies of the previous 
administration (more war and more inequality) - not by defending those polices 
openly (which would court 'populist' opposition) but by furiously attacking his 
character (to the extent of the Russiagate/'Putin's puppet' fantasy).

With the Dreamers, the Democrats have found a small aggrieved group whose 
(real) grievances they can champion, while they cooperate with the Republicans 
in support of widespread exploitative policies - flat wages and the lack of 
social supports (healthcare, education, etc.) taken for granted in other 
countries.

—CGE
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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Make it a rabid hungry wolverine.

The "liberal" cable news is doing wall-to-wall cautions that the Democrats
can't "move left" because they won't be able to win over the Trumpies.

What a place



On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> The next time I see one of those stupid inside/outside articles in
> Jacobin, I am going to track down the author and put a hungry wolverine in
> his underwear.
>
> http://time.com/5112818/government-shutdown-ends-democrats/
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[Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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The next time I see one of those stupid inside/outside articles in 
Jacobin, I am going to track down the author and put a hungry wolverine 
in his underwear.


http://time.com/5112818/government-shutdown-ends-democrats/
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