Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 8/22/19 6:12 PM, DW via Marxism wrote: Scholars that have sought to blame the USSR usually, as I understand it, come from very strong anti-communist backgrounds who seek to sow any trouble in Russian history at the feet of communists. Yeah, well, that doesn't sound much like Tamara Deutscher: https://www.marxists.org/archive/dewar/1966/katyn-massacre.htm _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm unconvinced by any side in this. For example the citation in wiki Dayne provided actually is from "Institute of National Remembrance", the Holocaust denying arm for the ultra-nationalist Polish state that has been attempting to revise Polish history to make all Poles look like flaming Unitarian liberals. Note, too, that the "Beria order" doesn't exist on paper and even this "Institute" fails to provide a single reference to back this up. Scholars that have sought to blame the USSR usually, as I understand it, come from very strong anti-communist backgrounds who seek to sow any trouble in Russian history at the feet of communists. Not to say they are wrong, of course, but rather there is real issue with documentation that points to too MANY culprits in what happened there. So much of this history is blinded by ideological bias I wouldn't support one side or the other. David Walters _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM Glauber Ataide via Marxism wrote: > Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by... the nazis?? Do you > guys really believe this nazi tale? Katyn Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre "The massacre was prompted by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to execute all captive members of the Polish officer corps, dated 5 March 1940, approved by the Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, including its leader, Joseph Stalin. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000. The victims were executed in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkiv prisons, and elsewhere." . . . "A number of Russian historians and organizations such as "Memorial" openly admit the Soviet responsibility, pointing out inconsistencies in the alternative versions - primarily the fact that another major mass execution site in Mednoye was never under German occupation and contained remains of victims originating from the same camps as those killed in Katyn, killed at the same time, and even though it was only exhumed in 90's it contained well preserved Polish uniforms, documents, souvenirs as well as Soviet newspapers dated 1940." _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 8/22/19 2:23 PM, Glauber Ataide via Marxism wrote: Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by... the nazis?? Do you guys really believe this nazi tale? Symbolic acknowledgment of culpability over Katyn murders in 1940 signals Russia's willingness to face up to its past Tom Parfitt in Moscow In a symbolic admission of guilt, Russia's parliament has declared that Joseph Stalin ordered his secret police to execute 22,000 Polish army officers and civilians in 1940, in one of the greatest mass murders of the 20th century. Today's acknowledgment of Stalin's personal culpability over the Katyn massacre comes amid a cautious thaw between Moscow and Warsaw, whose recent relations have been thorny at best. It was also seen as a sign that Russia may finally be ready for muted self-scrutiny over its totalitarian past. Mikhail Gorbachev admitted in 1990 that the NKVD was to blame for the massacre, after a half-century of the Soviets blaming it on Nazi troops. However, there has never been a formal statement which implicates the Soviet leadership in such explicit terms. full: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Katyn forest? A supposed soviet crime discovered by... the nazis?? Do you guys really believe this nazi tale? Am Do., 22. Aug. 2019 um 18:33 Uhr schrieb Michael Meeropol via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > yes -- agreed --- that is not just a detail but a disgusting war crime --- > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/glauberataide%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * yes -- agreed --- that is not just a detail but a disgusting war crime --- _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 8/22/19 12:14 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote: But I never thought Stalin was "wrong" --- just that the Soviets took advantage of the pact to take over territory they had no business annexing --- I guess a reason why Putin wants to justify the pact since he just goggled up Crimea If it was only taking over territory, it would be one thing but it became something else when the cream of Polish society was killed in the Katyn forest. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/01/the-secrets-of-katyn/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Whoever wrote this either willfully ignores or REALLY doesn't know about the failed efforts of the Soviet Union to get the British and French to ally with them to stop Hitler's attempt to take over Czechoslovakia --- The Brits and French were anxious for Hitler to go WEST --- The Nazi- Soviet pact was horrible for the people the Soviets took over but it did buy Stalin and the Soviets TIME to build up an industrial machine when Hitler turned west after conquering Poland --- What I never could stomach was the WESTERN Communist parties slavishly following Soviet foreign policy -- even to the extent of, in 1941 before June 22, attacking FDR for his warlike policies --- a song by the almanac singers is particularly galling --- I remember a knock down drag out fight with my father about the pact when I was in my twenties But I never thought Stalin was "wrong" --- just that the Soviets took advantage of the pact to take over territory they had no business annexing --- I guess a reason why Putin wants to justify the pact since he just goggled up Crimea _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Hidden history: The Nazi-Soviet pact which Russia now tries to deny
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/08/22/hidden-history-the-nazi-soviet-pact-which-russia-now-tries-t _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com